I doubt it is going to happen as well, but I like to theorize, to think of what could have been and what could be.
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The only problems I have with Ultimate Wilderness is the Shifter and most of it's archetypes. I still like the book better then Ultimate Intrigue and Horror Adventures. But I agree that if anything else was made that the quality should be more like the Advanced Players Guide, Advanced Races Guide, Occult Adventures, etc.
That's... almost the main feature of the book. The shifter was so bad at launch that they tried to patch it to make it somewhat decent... and there are still problem swith the class. The occult classes didn't get that much flak, and the vigilante got a playtest.
The shifter? It still doesn't have access to Beast Shape 3 and 4, its chimeric major aspects cannot be combined, you cannot have 3 or more natural weapons at once, or use your 2 claws like a flurry.
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We still need the Pocket Unchained. So, yes!
And though we don't necessarily need more hardback rulebooks or player companions, I could see some doing well if they we're really designed well. You know, if something in design for PF2 was both spectacular and doesn't exist in PF, then doing a good conversion of it for PF would make for a good sale. Vigilante.
I'd also like to see more Unchained material. Quite a bit needs to be Unchained in PF.
And setting material / Fluff. That I'll buy. (But that's not really specific to either Pathfinder or PF2.)
Yeah, it is a shame we never got the updated version of the Shifter in the pocket version of UW.
It is incredibly rare for me to buy PDFs, now getting them for free with physical releases, that is different;)
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Yeah, it is a shame we never got the updated version of the Shifter in the pocket version of UW.
It is incredibly rare for me to buy PDFs, now getting them for free with physical releases, that is different;)
They actually updated Ultimate Wilderness, with fixes for the Shifter. They just normally announced the release of an errata. FYI, the Archives of Nethys also have those fixes. Paizo previously blogged that they would be fixing the class, they just didn't state [as much big as other announcements] that they released it.
Of course/ I would love an Unchained Mythic like other guy said <3 and a compendium hardbook of the Old APs... (Legacy of Fire) and Campaign Settings and Companions
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With very little hesitation. Alternatively, if a third party made a deal with Paizo to make PF1 content 'officially', I would begin to purchase PF1 content from them.
This. Given other comments regarding splitting resources, I think this would also be more viable anyway. Paizo needs to focus on their flagship for obvious reasons (for now at least), but if they could contract others to create Golarion-based content, particularly module/AP type products, I'd be happy. Clean-up in aisle 4 stuff would be nice, too, i.e., fixing broken rules (I'm looking at you, Monkey Lunge), FAQ updates.
Granted I'm subscribing to almost everything, but I don't think my current group is interested in moving to 2E. I'll likely soon be forced to stop subscribing to most products (college kid next year), but an AP per month that I might actually use would be nice.
JiCi, I know they had updates/errata for UW, but they didn't put them in the pocket version unlike the Advanced Class Guide pocket version.
Would you like new classes, new options for existing classes, or both?
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I'm shocked that Paizo doesn't at least offer APs converted to 1e, in PDF form. I would buy for sure, and would buy printed books as well. And more Campaign Settings pertaining to nations.
I doubt that APs are particularly profitable to start with (given they are aimed at GMs who probably only make up about 20% of the game population) but are necessary to encourage customers to play the game and therefore buy the core rulebooks and supplements.
Given that converting an AP from one edition to the other would involve a great deal of work (all the mechanics would need to be changed and tested) and doing this might discourage players from moving to the new edition, it makes perfect sense that Paizo would decline to do this.
It's hard to say how profitable APs are. While, they are primarily purchased by GMs, they are also unique in being rather hard to access without buying them. Meanwhile, 99% of what's in a Core book or a Player Companion, you could easily and legally get from the Archives of Nethys or some other site. But if you want an AP, you pretty much have to buy the AP.
I think the problem is in how hard it is to convert the APs.
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I would definitelt buy adventures: APs, modules or scenarios
+1
Yes.
I also have bought (and am quite happy with) several 2e books.
I haven't been all that impressed with the 2e APs so far, so a conversion to 1e doesn't feel needed.
That said, Strength of Thousands has strong potential.
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I'm still buying stuff from 1e. I have almost all the hardbacks now (missing Villain Codex and the one with the organizations), and I'm slowly but surely filling in my Player Companion and Campaign Setting books.
I'd still like to pick up some of the more recent P1e APs too. I missed Iron Gods, and I'm missing the first book of Reign of Winter and Mummy's Mask. (I did manage to complete my Wrath of the Righteous Set after awhile though, when I didn't think I was going to get to.) I'd like to get Strange Aeons, Return of the Runelords, and Tyrant's Grasp, but I can't afford to buy any full APs right now, and don't want to try to get them piecemeal.
I've missed a few of the Campaign Setting books, particularly Technology Guide. I have a few later books that reference new mechanics in that one, so missing it is a pain. I could get a PDF, but I prefer to have the physical books.
I'd like to see Paizo release some 1e Compendium hardbacks that collect things from all the softback books. Like a book with all the Combat Tricks or all the prestige classes or ALL the spells. Or a book that is just all the classes and archetypes. Of course then those books would be in direct competition with the original products with that material, so they wouldn't want to do it while they still have many of those in stock.
But, you know, ideally, I'd like to see the Pathfinder 1e Hardback Library that looks like a set of encyclopedias and contains all the mechanics of the entire system, sorted by type of mechanic. That's a fantasy of mine. I just get tired of looking through individual player companions for stuff.
It's hard to say how profitable APs are. While, they are primarily purchased by GMs, they are also unique in being rather hard to access without buying them. Meanwhile, 99% of what's in a Core book or a Player Companion, you could easily and legally get from the Archives of Nethys or some other site. But if you want an AP, you pretty much have to buy the AP.
I think the problem is in how hard it is to convert the APs.
The AP's were pretty profitable and the main source of income for Paizo for many years (especially the subscribers). Now I don't know if that holds any longer since they've branched out so much.
I haven't been all that impressed with the 2e APs so far, so a conversion to 1e doesn't feel needed.
That said, Strength of Thousands has strong potential.
Aw. One of my friends was pretty excited to convert Age of Ashes because he's always liked the island of hermea.
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Yes I would
Heck I had a subscription to the new books right up until PF2 came out.
If they started up more PF1 books I would gladly restart my subscription
Yeah Scavion, mad that they finally did something for Hermea when they went to 2e.
Yeah Greylurker I was subscriber for like 8-9 years.
I agree Artofregicide, some 1e hardcover compendium books would be nice.
An Ultimate Equipment 2 would have been great, also add a technology section to include the Technology Guide stuff as well.
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I would definitely buy adventures: APs, modules or scenarios
I second that!! I don't need more first edition rule books, but adventures, adventure paths, and scenarios would be great.
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As i'm mostly playing E6/E8 games with PF1, i'd buy anything that would make my job at running those. Things a low powered bestiary, or books like NPC, Villain and Monster codex are pretty interesting for as they gave me better way to improvise quick encounters. I especially like low-powered humanoid stat blocks, such as guard, soldier, bandits, etc.
I would also love if they could expand on the social aspect of the game. I really loved what they did with the verbal duel in Ultimate Intrigue, but it seem rather limited in scope, so i'd like for them to introduce new subsystem are ways do deal with social encounters that goes beyond rolling one or two dice.
Pretty sure it wouldn't happen, but i guess i can dream!
On a more realistic note, i'd like them to release the pocket version of the few book they haven't released yet. I recently purchased most of them and i feel like it would be a shame to not have access to the few last remaining ones.
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If Paizo made more 1e products( yeah I know "and monkeys might fly out of my butt"), but if it actual happened, would you buy them?
Also would you be more interested in mostly new, roughly 50/50 new and reprints, or mostly reprints/updated stuff?
Let me preface my statement I am about to make with "YES" I would buy them. In the end I do want to support Paizo as they did a great job of taking the 3.5 rule set and building something really nice out of it.
Here is what I would like to see.
1) When they do a Adventures, Scenarios or an AP do it in both 2E and 1E. This would actually benefit them financially as it will hit a broader base of customers which means more ROI for them. It would also allow them to present new monsters, hazards, and content within the 1E content. This would be an easy way to present updated FAQ and rule errata as well.
NOTE: I don't mind doing conversions but if you want me to spend money as a loyal 1E do the conversions out of the gate and I will buy them.
2) Any Campaign Setting or Player Companions that present completely new material to PF core (not 2E alone) do the 1E conversion. Again if you do the conversions out of the gate it saves me time and I will probably buy them.
3) 2E to 1E new monster conversion companions. Again when they present new monsters, encounters, hazards and such release them in their own 1E book. This gives them a broader base of consumers who are loyal to 1E.
4) 1E Updates and Rule Clarification. There is some things that really need to be cleaned up... So why not clean them up.
5) There is plenty of blank space on NPC CODEX's material for PF1E hybrid classes, unchained class, and such that can be presented with a variety of archetypes and specialties. As a DM I am always looking for examples like these that I can either drop in and use or modify. It is always good to have good examples with backgrounds that can be built on/modified.
In the end Paizo should be looking to offer services to the largest customer base as possible. I realize that many PF players appreciate PF2E but there is also a huge consumer base of PF1E. It seems to me if Paizo makes a small effort to keep appealing to the PF1E base they are in turn keeping their core 1E base happy while growing their 2E base...
Just food for thought.
Jack
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If Paizo made more 1e products( yeah I know "and monkeys might fly out of my butt"), but if it actual happened, would you buy them?
Also would you be more interested in mostly new, roughly 50/50 new and reprints, or mostly reprints/updated stuff?
...
In the end Paizo should be looking to offer services to the largest customer base as possible. I realize that many PF players appreciate PF2E but there is also a huge consumer base of PF1E. It seems to me if Paizo makes a small effort to keep appealing to the PF1E base they are in turn keeping their core 1E base happy while growing their 2E base...Just food for thought.
Jack
Those who do not study the past are condemned to repeat it:
By 1996, TSR was experiencing numerous problems, as outlined by Shannon Appelcline: "CCGs were continuing to shrink the RPG industry. Distributors were going out of business. TSR had unbalanced their AD&D game through a series of lucrative supplements that ultimately hurt the long-time viability of the game. Meanwhile they had developed so many settings – many of them popular and well-received – that they were both cannibalizing their only sales and discouraging players from picking up settings that might be gone in a few years. They may have been cannibalizing their own sales through excessive production of books or supplements too."[21]:30 David M. Ewalt, in his book Of Dice and Men, adds that Spellfire and Dragon Dice "were both expensive to produce, and neither sold very well".[22]:174Supporting different editions in the exact same market is pretty much the 'poster child' of what not to do: You've increased your own costs while splitting your player base. Even when TSR split their player base, they didn't try to support multiple editions (though some campaign settings might as well have been different editions)...
Paizo can't force you to 'upgrade' to PF2e, but encouraging the continued play of PF1e would probably be a really, really bad idea, both for Paizo and for the game itself.
Age of Ashes is decent enough that it's worth converting if you're really into Hermea, or using as a basis for your own material. Beyond that would be spoilers.
See my rambling, incoherent rant on the Age of Ashes forum for my unfiltered review of the AP. You might realize I'm an idiot and that the adventure sounds amazing (or terrible).
In terms of Paizo's market strategy, we've beaten this skeletal horse back into powder. Personally, I'm in favor of the transition to 2e broadly, but I know not everyone is. Whether or not we agree with it, the die has been cast. Speculating on whether it was the right idea is just racing rocking chairs.
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In terms of Paizo's market strategy, we've beaten this skeletal horse back into powder. Personally, I'm in favor of the transition to 2e broadly, but I know not everyone is. Whether or not we agree with it, the die has been cast. Speculating on whether it was the right idea is just racing rocking chairs.
While a full focus back on 1e would be very surprisingly and probably as bad for Paizo. Showing interest as a consumer is a good way to at least convey that there's some kind of interest for retro-gaming in the TTRPG . Beside, if third party still make PF1 supplement, it must be because there's still a bit of interest.
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In terms of Paizo's market strategy, we've beaten this skeletal horse back into powder. Personally, I'm in favor of the transition to 2e broadly, but I know not everyone is. Whether or not we agree with it, the die has been cast. Speculating on whether it was the right idea is just racing rocking chairs.While a full focus back on 1e would be very surprisingly and probably as bad for Paizo. Showing interest as a consumer is a good way to at least convey that there's some kind of interest for retro-gaming in the TTRPG . Beside, if third party still make PF1 supplement, it must be because there's still a bit of interest.
I mean, what *feels like* the complete abandonment and shunning of PF1e is rather stinging (to me, anyway), keep in mind Paizo is a small, independent company. They have limited resources, and did what they thought was best for their company. They're not part of huge corporate conglomerate like WotC, if stuff doesn't make money they don't eat. Btw, I admire Paizo's prioritization of people first, product as second, and profit third. But they're not getting wealthy off the publishing business. They've had countless opportunities to "sell out" and really haven't taken them.
So yeah, we can absolutely dabble in what we think Paizo should do from our rocking chairs, but unless you're sitting where they are, they deserve at least the benefit of the doubt.
My thoughts, anyhow.
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If Paizo made more 1e products( yeah I know "and monkeys might fly out of my butt"), but if it actual happened, would you buy them?
Also would you be more interested in mostly new, roughly 50/50 new and reprints, or mostly reprints/updated stuff?
Hell, yeah, I would. Probably more archetypes, more integration of optional rules from Pathfinder Unchained, some refinement of classes which could have been designed better (i.e. the Kineticist, Swashbuckler, Warpriest, some others). But, overall, what I'd like is a PF1.5E, instead of what we got in PF2E. Oh, well. Maybe Corefinder will turn out well. <crosses fingers>
I would most definitely buy their current AP's converted to 1E or just new ones in 1E rules. ;) The thought of having to convert them back to 1E is what is keeping them out of my consideration so far (and might end my suscription somewhen in the future). Quite honestly, them releasing PDF conversion guides to 1E for each AP (at a price, not for free) would do more to keep me suscribed than anything else.
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I mean, what *feels like* the complete abandonment and shunning of PF1e is rather stinging (to me, anyway), keep in mind Paizo is a small, independent company. They have limited resources, and did what they thought was best for their company. They're not part of huge corporate conglomerate like WotC, if stuff doesn't make money they don't eat. Btw, I admire Paizo's prioritization of people first, product as second, and profit third. But they're not getting wealthy off the publishing business. They've had countless opportunities to "sell out" and really haven't taken them.So yeah, we can absolutely dabble in what we think Paizo should do from our rocking chairs, but unless you're sitting where they are, they deserve at least the benefit of the doubt.
My thoughts, anyhow.
Oh yeah, you are totally right, Paizo certainly need to focus on being successful first than cattering to a smaller base. My point was only that i think that showing interest in PF1 product as a consumer base is not pointless even if them developping any new PF1 product would be surprising.
" They may have been cannibalizing their own sales through excessive production of books or supplements too."
It's my personal observation that THIS statement holds true to the demise of PF1.
PF2 was going in that direction as well (prior to covid slowing things down), they just mixed up the delivery of products by merging some lines (and increasing book costs).
Yeah, if they did 1e versions of APs and modules that would add up but doing one hardcover(*) book a year or a few hardcover(*) books for the 15th anniversary wouldn't be terrible.
*or softcover pocket version.
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Its kind of why I find it silly when people say that Paizo should have stuck to 1e because it would have made them more money and been easy <_<
Because umm. This thread is kind of self evident to the contrary.
Like people shouldn't mix their personal feelings with "what would have been logical"
I don't think many people actually think that they should have stuck with 1e. What people looks to be saying is that they would have liked it paizo stucked with 1e.
Personally, I would have personally liked a 1.5e refining the game and dealing with some basic problems it had, such as feat taxes, problematic spells, etc.
But alas, Paizo choosed what's probably best for them and i'll keep homebrewing pathfinder as i pretty much always did for the past 5-6 years. It's still a pretty fun game.
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This is a fundamental issue with most of the gaming industry:" They may have been cannibalizing their own sales through excessive production of books or supplements too."It's my personal observation that THIS statement holds true to the demise of PF1.
PF2 was going in that direction as well (prior to covid slowing things down), they just mixed up the delivery of products by merging some lines (and increasing book costs).
- If you don't create and sell enough books, you will go broke.
- If you do publish enough to stay afloat, eventually the game becomes bloated and a degree of diminishing returns starts to set in (Old rulebook sales decline because there are already a lot of copies in circulation and new books tend to have narrower audiences because you presumably already covered the more popular topics).
- The more bloated the game becomes, the more intimidating it becomes for new (and some old) players.
- If you try to clear the bloat by issuing a new edition (or even a 'half-edition'), people get upset because they have already invested (emotionally and/or financially) in the current edition.
The 'natural life cycle' for d20 games is roughly 10 years:
- AD&D1.x from late 1970's to late 1980's
- AD&D2.x from late 1980's to late 1990's
- D&D3.x from late 1990's to late 2000's
- D&D 4.x from late 2000's to mid 2010's
- D&D 5.x from mid 2010's to ????
- PF1 from late 2000's to late 2010's
- PF2 from late 2010's to ????
Oh, and I was incorrect about (at least) one thing: TSR did publish both the D&D Rules Cyclopedia and AD&D 2nd Edition at the same time, so they were basically competing against themselves with their Basic and Advanced game incarnations.
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This is a fundamental issue with most of the gaming industry:[list]If you don't create and sell enough books, you will go broke. If you do publish enough to stay afloat, eventually the game becomes bloated and a degree of diminishing returns starts to set in (Old rulebook sales decline because there are already a lot of copies in circulation and new books tend to have narrower audiences because you presumably already covered the more popular topics). The more bloated the game becomes, the more intimidating it becomes for new (and some old) players. If you try to clear the bloat by issuing a new edition (or even a 'half-edition'), people get upset because they have already invested (emotionally and/or financially) in the current edition.
While this is all very true, i feel like there would be way to release new books and new editions without necessary bringing drastic changes to editions that makes them completely incompatible.
I originally came to Pathfinder because i liked the 3.5 rule set and like that they decided to perfect it. I will admit, i kinda felt betrayed when they decided to stop refining PF1 and decided to look elsewere for a bit. And that's totally fine, i get why paizo decided to release 2e and it was probably a good decision, and it's way too late to go back now. That being said, some part of me still wish some support for PF1 happens, or a PF 1.5 get released.
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would be nice if they could make the adventures muli-system or system neutral. Aegis of Empires is being done for PF1, PF2 and 5E so it's not like it isn't possible
would be nice if they could make the adventures muli-system or system neutral. Aegis of Empires is being done for PF1, PF2 and 5E so it's not like it isn't possible
It's not impossible, but it is resource intensive and risky. 3pp tend to have more flexibility than Paizo does.
would be nice if they could make the adventures muli-system or system neutral. Aegis of Empires is being done for PF1, PF2 and 5E so it's not like it isn't possible
While it is certainly possible to make an adventure system neutral, i personally don't think it's a good idea. Adventure path have a lot of pre-planned combat encounter in them, and it would be a nightmare to balance them so they could be played by multiple system. It would also limit some of the option they have for encounters. If a certain monster only exist in one system, then they can't include it in the adventure.
Imo, system neutral book are better when they focus on lore, worldbuilding or independent sub-system to deal with something the main game was not designed to do.
This is a fundamental issue with most of the gaming industry:[list]While this is all very true, i feel like there would be way to release new books and new editions without necessary bringing drastic changes to editions that makes them completely incompatible.If you don't create and sell enough books, you will go broke. If you do publish enough to stay afloat, eventually the game becomes bloated and a degree of diminishing returns starts to set in (Old rulebook sales decline because there are already a lot of copies in circulation and new books tend to have narrower audiences because you presumably already covered the more popular topics). The more bloated the game becomes, the more intimidating it becomes for new (and some old) players. If you try to clear the bloat by issuing a new edition (or even a 'half-edition'), people get upset because they have already invested (emotionally and/or financially) in the current edition.
It's a problem for most types of iterative release games. The most successful strategy seems to be a series of releasing and invalidating like you get with games like MtG. It's not as viable in table top gaming since games often last long enough that new material would need to be released before games were finished if the company intended to survive. And the main mechanism for invalidating is writing overpowered abilities that displace the old versions, then invalidating them in the next release. It's not satisfying long term and makes it hard to jump back in.
Swapping between genres could make it work better, and that seems to be the Paizo strategy, so we'll get to see if it works out. I'm not sure a sci-fi/fantasy swap is enough of a delay, you'd probably want 3 or 4 for a cycle. Maybe modern to get people some real world analogues, then plane hopping or time travel for rule/option consolidation.
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If Paizo made more 1e products would you buy them?
Nope, well highly doubtful. I am fully invested in 2E now. 1E's time has passed. I do use existing 1E material converted to 2E but that's based on story and narrative, not game mechanics. If they were to release new material I would want it to use the 2E system. Though I would not object to an added section to new product giving advice and guidance on how to convert it for 1E or even D&5E.
I wonder what the cost difference of making a standard hardcover book vs one like the softcover pocket version. Lets say that the cost to make new/old continent is the same just the difference in producing both books not including content such as writing, art, etc.
So many things I would have liked to have seen, but at this point a Bestiary 7, Ultimate Equipment 2, or Class Compendium would have been nice.