Feedback: Guide to Organized Play: Pathfinder Society (second edition) v2.0 (September 2020 Update)

[Alex Speidel]

Greetings Pathfinders,

The Guide to Organized Play has been updated and is available at these links:
* English
* Portugeuse

Please use this thread to leave feedback on the Guide itself. To facilitate our use of this thread, do not use this thread for program implementation/campaign rules discussion. We will delete off topic posts. If you wish to comment on an aspect of the Pathfinder Society (2nd edition) play experience, please start new threads as applicable.

[Dubious Scholar]

Scrolls not heightening may be simpler, but it's really awkward. Not really a fan of reducing the number of options on some of those tiers either - you've effectively reduced some characters to a single choice this way.

As an example, an arcane caster at level 5 who chose Spells can choose either a single lesser healing potion or a scroll of a haste from their on-level selection, because Heal and Heroism aren't on the arcane list.

The prior list offered Fireball and Lightning Bolt, or taking heightened versions of lower scrolls (Magic Missile?). And for spells heightening is important in order for many effects to keep up. A scroll of dispel magic is fine if it's your current slot, but it's never available except as a level 2 scroll which means it quickly becomes useless because counteract checks depend on spell level.

Another omission is that by removing Soothe from the list you remove the healing option for Occult casters.

I'll grant spells was much stronger than the other schools (Fireball!). But I think there are better options here. More options that don't fall behind without heightening are needed I think on the list (e.g. Fear).

Heal is odd since it's only at 1 and 3, but nothing higher, and... why? If it's fine to have it at those why not elsewhere? That kind of thing makes little sense to me reading it.

[cavernshark]

Missing word in Pathfinder Training section:

Pathfinder Training wrote:

Each character should choose one of the following: Spells, Scrolls Swords, Generalist, or Field Commission. Each of these choices grants a bonus lore at first level, and a bonus skill [feat] at 5th level. Each Pathfinder Training (except Field Commission) also grants a bonus consumable at the beginning of each mission.

The text says you get an extra skill, but it's a skill feat. Obvious looking at the table, but just wanted to call it out since it does change the meaning without the extra word.

[First World Bard]

Do Field Commissioned agents get to take the default healing potion, or do they get no consumables at all? I suspect it’s no consumable, and the lore and skill feat replaces the old benefit of the any school consumable of half character level, but I wanted to check and make sure.

[First World Bard]

The advice on languages seems to be gone; modern human languages now need access. Languages by home region are clear enough, but it doesn’t seem like ethnicity provides access. Also the confusing bit about humans getting an additional language is gone, but I believe that was redundant with the bonus language humans get.

[Ferious Thune]

First World Bard wrote:

The advice on languages seems to be gone; modern human languages now need access. Languages by home region are clear enough, but it doesn’t seem like ethnicity provides access. Also the confusing bit about humans getting an additional language is gone, but I believe that was redundant with the bonus language humans get.

Along those lines, under Home Region it says to look under Rarity for details, but the link just goes to the top of the Player-Created Characters section.

[CompliantHornet]

I'm unsure about how downtime is worded in this guide, and specifically the part that says Earn Income is resolved first.

To give an example: Would a Field Commissioned Agent be able to spend their 12 days of downtime after a scenario by using the 8 day block to Earn Income, and the 4 day block to start Retraining a Feat, then in their subsequent downtime spend the 8 day block finishing the Retraining and starting another one, finishing it during the 4 day block?

[Robbgobb]

I don't spend a lot of time on the site because of too much white. The same goes for the guide. It would be nice to have a dark theme for it. Just a small thing but at times it is just hard to stare at so much brightness.

[Zezashetan]

What Happens to my Eager Protege? is is only 40 out of 60 and it looks like I cannot slot it anymore.

[NielsenE]

CompliantHornet wrote:

I'm unsure about how downtime is worded in this guide, and specifically the part that says Earn Income is resolved first.

To give an example: Would a Field Commissioned Agent be able to spend their 12 days of downtime after a scenario by using the 8 day block to Earn Income, and the 4 day block to start Retraining a Feat, then in their subsequent downtime spend the 8 day block finishing the Retraining and starting another one, finishing it during the 4 day block?

From the guide:

"Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity, though it is the last option to resolve. Complete any Crafting or Retraining before beginning Earn Income checks."

The guide says its resolved _last_ not _first_.

[CompliantHornet]

Eric Nielsen wrote:

CompliantHornet wrote:

I'm unsure about how downtime is worded in this guide, and specifically the part that says Earn Income is resolved first.

To give an example: Would a Field Commissioned Agent be able to spend their 12 days of downtime after a scenario by using the 8 day block to Earn Income, and the 4 day block to start Retraining a Feat, then in their subsequent downtime spend the 8 day block finishing the Retraining and starting another one, finishing it during the 4 day block?

From the guide:

"Earning Income is the most common Downtime activity, though it is the last option to resolve. Complete any Crafting or Retraining before beginning Earn Income checks."

The guide says its resolved _last_ not _first_.

Right, but the guide also says that you spend the chunks discretely as units, and that's the only part that says resolve. I had read that as how to handle disparate downtimes as a GM expeditiously, not a restriction on the order in which you can perform them.

That said, I don't particularly disagree with your argument - I just think there are multiple valid readings, and that's why I posted here :)

[Michael Hallet]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Scrolls not heightening may be simpler, but it's really awkward. Not really a fan of reducing the number of options on some of those tiers either - you've effectively reduced some characters to a single choice this way.

As an example, an arcane caster at level 5 who chose Spells can choose either a single lesser healing potion or a scroll of a haste from their on-level selection, because Heal and Heroism aren't on the arcane list.

The prior list offered Fireball and Lightning Bolt, or taking heightened versions of lower scrolls (Magic Missile?). And for spells heightening is important in order for many effects to keep up. A scroll of dispel magic is fine if it's your current slot, but it's never available except as a level 2 scroll which means it quickly becomes useless because counteract checks depend on spell level.

Another omission is that by removing Soothe from the list you remove the healing option for Occult casters.

Totally agree. I think it was a mistake to remove Soothe and the auto-heightening of scrolls.

[Michael Hallet]

I do have questions that I couldn't find an answer for.

What is the conversion from the points-based schools system to the new one? In some cases, PC had multiple schools and now have to pick one.

If you had all 3 points in one school, do you have to pick that school?
If you had 2 points in one and 1 in the other, do you have to pick the one you had 2 points in, or can you pick either of the two or can you pick any school option?
If you had 1 point in each do you pick one or do you have to be a generalist? Can you be a generalist? Can other previously created PCs be a generalist?

I assume it is not possible to switch to or from being field commissioned. Is this correct?

If a high-level PC is field-commissioned do they get the new skill and skill feat right away? What if they already have one of the skill feats. Is there an opportunity to retrain that feat selection and use their free school selection to take it instead? Do they have to pay the downtime cost for this retraining?

I guess in general I'm not finding any rules for how the changes affect existing characters.

[NielsenE]

I don't have an answer for the conversion from pre-guide to now regarding schools.

However its been possible to retrain from school-selection to field-commissioned in the past. And that looks like its still supported under Downtime:Retraining:
"
Retraining: Using Downtime to retrain character options(Core Rulebook 481) works as written with a few clarifications.

Some items are changeable for free, such as name, gender, appearance, or other cosmetic designators.
Pathfinder training may be changed and costs 14 days.
Changing a selectable class feature, takes 28 days. "

The middle line "Pathfinder training may be changed and costs 14 days". And in the old guide it explicitly including switching to field-commissioned.

[Z...D...]

I actually think this layout is better than the previous.

Confused on the wording of gaining consumables. Some areas say "items" meaning more than one. A second place says "item" which makes me think of one.

It also reads, to me, that Field Commissioned do not get any.

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

Everyone but field commission gets 1, field commission gets 0. There may be some left over plurals we missed. I will fix those when I get back form vacation.

[Z...D...]

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:

Everyone but field commission gets 1, field commission gets 0. There may be some left over plurals we missed. I will fix those when I get back form vacation.

Thanks for the clarification.

Enjoy the vacation.

[FLite]

Zezashetan wrote:

What Happens to my Eager Protege? is is only 40 out of 60 and it looks like I cannot slot it anymore.

You no longer *need* to slot it. It is just always there.

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

Also, thank you everyone for keeping this thread focused, positive, and productive.

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

By the way, if anyone would like to mock up a *better* consumables lay out, I would love to see it. I am not entirely happy with it. But short of writing active queries (drop down list to select school, text box for level, hit submit to see your list of options...) which we don't really have the option to do yet, I was stumped on a better layout.

[Rakshara of the Flame]

Is it my imagination, or are the Faction Boons not yet up on the Organized Play Boons page?

[Nefreet]

There's an error on the Retired Rewards page:

"During the playtest period for Pathfinder Second Edition, players and GMs did not earn Chronicles when playing the 11 playtest adventures."

There was a Chronicle for We Be Heroes, which used the Playtest rules, that we were told we could carry over to our 2nd Edition characters.

[Dubious Scholar]

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:

By the way, if anyone would like to mock up a *better* consumables lay out, I would love to see it. I am not entirely happy with it. But short of writing active queries (drop down list to select school, text box for level, hit submit to see your list of options...) which we don't really have the option to do yet, I was stumped on a better layout.

Anything I could do beyond that would be via scripting, I'll tell you that much. I might roll the default column into individual cells, and remove the all tab. That way each tab is just a list with breakpoints where you get the next set of items as you hit each level up line.

[First World Bard]

Nefreet wrote:

There's an error on the Retired Rewards page:

"During the playtest period for Pathfinder Second Edition, players and GMs did not earn Chronicles when playing the 11 playtest adventures."

There was a Chronicle for We Be Heroes, which used the Playtest rules, that we were told we could carry over to our 2nd Edition characters.

We Be Heroes did not take place during the Playtest period. It was released during Free RPG day a month or two before the game’s release. I don’t remember if 11 counts WBH or not... there were 4 PFS style scenarios and... how many chapters of Doomsday Dawn?

[NielsenE]

7 chapters for Doomsday Dawn

[Helvellyn]

Is this a change as I thought you could't get credit running the same non repeatable more than once? Or was it always like this?

From the guide:
GMs earn GM credits, Achievement Points, and a Chronicle the first time they GM an adventure. Any subsequent GM sessions earn GM credits and AcP, unless the adventure has the Repeatable Tag.

Allthough you don't get the chronicle sheet, the AcPs make rerunning the same adventure as a GM so all players get a chance to play it, much more likely.

[Ferious Thune]

You always got GM credit (towards glyphs) and AcP for running a scenario more than once. You just don't get a chronicle sheet unless it's a repeatable (or you use a glyph replay). This hasn't changed.

[Watery Soup]

Is there a reason why schools exist at all?

PFS gold per level exceeds wealth by level to account for consumables. Then we have Earn Income to account for consumables. Then we get consumables. Earn Income and Schools introduce disproportionate complexity relative to the benefit they bring.

Tying together a few separate threads on here, it seems like a lot of unnecessary complexity can be reduced:

1. Raise the formal Treasure Bundle expectation ("8-9") to match the de facto Treasure Bundle expectation (9-10, which, right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate, appears to be the case).

2. Eliminate Earn Income, Downtime Crafting, and Schools. People can just buy consumables with all those "extra" Treasure Bundles they've been getting. Move retraining, Crafting, and whatever else people want to do with Downtime to AcP.

[Syri]

Quote:

This is also the stage at which you should choose your character’s home region (Core Rulebook 420-429), and in the case of human characters, your ethnicity.

This sentence from the Guide needs to be corrected, as non-humans are explicitly stated to have ethnicities too.

Quote:

GMs should check Table 10–5: DCs by Level (Core Rulebook 503) to calculate the Earned Income DC.

It's the 'Earn Income' DC, not the "Earned Income" DC.

[Hejtan]

Having to retire a character just because of non-healed deafened condition is a joke, and a bad one at that.

[FLite]

Thanks Syri, added to fix when I get back.

[Dubious Scholar]

Hejtan wrote:

Having to retire a character just because of non-healed deafened condition is a joke, and a bad one at that.

That's not exactly a new issue there - there's never been a provision for lesser cure spells than Raise Dead in the guide.

We need something to state the cost of clearing other conditions too. (Also, it should really be a per-character resource for all of those - AcP shouldn't ever be the primary raise dead resource)

[FLite]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:

By the way, if anyone would like to mock up a *better* consumables lay out, I would love to see it. I am not entirely happy with it. But short of writing active queries (drop down list to select school, text box for level, hit submit to see your list of options...) which we don't really have the option to do yet, I was stumped on a better layout.

Anything I could do beyond that would be via scripting, I'll tell you that much. I might roll the default column into individual cells, and remove the all tab. That way each tab is just a list with breakpoints where you get the next set of items as you hit each level up line.

Scripting is not really a viable option at this time. :)

[Ferious Thune]

I'll also make a request that nothing be changed to make it harder for someone relying on a screen reader to get the information. That doesn't affect me, personally, but I know members of the community who it would.

[FLite]

We have a person evaluating the site for screen reader compliance, and have made several changes to increase accessability.

[caps]

Count me in for being hugely disappointed in the change to the Spells school items. No auto-heightening and a much narrower list (not to mention only getting 1 item) makes this benefit much harder to take advantage of.

--

FWIW, I *like* the schools overall.

[DM Amazing Red]

I still dislike the amount of nerfing to the number of hirelings but we knew that was going to happen. I kinda feel that Generalist and Field-Trained are a bit redundant. Also all Field Agents are Lore-Based or Bargain Hunters which feels fair more narrow than the others which is ironic.

[Pip Hip Hooray]

I am thrilled to see Pathfinder Society Lore offered on the options for all schools.

Hmm

[Watery Soup]

caps wrote:

FWIW, I *like* the schools overall.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436wh?Fine-New-thread-Get-rid-of-Schools-and-E arn

[Michael Hallet]

Schools I'm not sold on. Most of the time I've taken healing potions or scrolls. I guess I like the additional lore skill and skill feat they give. Personally I think all lore skills should auto-advance not just ones that you spend feats on.

But I don't want to get rid of the downtime system. There is more to it than earning income. IMO, AcP should be reserved for rebuilds and access to uncommon things. It shouldn't be used for things like raise dead, curing conditions, retraining, crafting, etc.

[Belafon]

Alex Speidel wrote:

Please use this thread to leave feedback on the Guide itself. To facilitate our use of this thread, do not use this thread for program implementation/campaign rules discussion. We will delete off topic posts. If you wish to comment on an aspect of the Pathfinder Society (2nd edition) play experience, please start new threads as applicable.

[Dubious Scholar]

Michael Hallet wrote:

Schools I'm not sold on. Most of the time I've taken healing potions or scrolls. I guess I like the additional lore skill and skill feat they give. Personally I think all lore skills should auto-advance not just ones that you spend feats on.

But I don't want to get rid of the downtime system. There is more to it than earning income. IMO, AcP should be reserved for rebuilds and access to uncommon things. It shouldn't be used for things like raise dead, curing conditions, retraining, crafting, etc.

I think part of the issue is that a lot of the swords/scrolls items are really situational. Others only have any effect if you succeed at a skill check but are consumed regardless, which is less consistent than just bringing a potion.

[TwilightKnight]

So we dropped a new Guide on Wednesday with some significant changes that were not expected and the Thursday blog did not address anything? WTH?!? How is it that there wasn’t a prepared blog to address the obvious changes? Poor planning Paizo. I’m disappointed.

[Blake's Tiger]

I have to agree. While this is not a normal time in the world, if this season turnover was my first experience with PFS, I probably would have given up due to the perceived disorganization. My incentive to keep playing PFS are the cool people I’ve been playing with for years.

[Ferious Thune]

Does Experienced Smuggler still allow you to make Earn Income checks as a Level-1 task? I believe that was in the old guide, but searching through the new one, I can't find it. Actually, I can't find it in the old guide, either, so I'm not sure where it was stated. The new guide does link to the Feat on Archives of Nethys, which still has the note there.

[First World Bard]

Ferious Thune wrote:

Does Experienced Smuggler still allow you to make Earn Income checks as a Level-1 task? I believe that was in the old guide, but searching through the new one, I can't find it. Actually, I can't find it in the old guide, either, so I'm not sure where it was stated. The new guide does link to the Feat on Archives of Nethys, which still has the note there.

I believe that was in the additional resources blog post.

[Ferious Thune]

Thanks. I see it there now. It must have moved there at some point, since that Blog is from January, and I see a post on the forum mentioning the adjusted feat from September 2019 with a broken link to the guide.

[Hmm]

Cross-References Needed

I'd like to see more cross-references in the guide with regards to Pathfinder Training to make the details easier to find. I had trouble finding where the information was, and I knew what I was looking for!

If I was just reading the new Player Basics page, I would think that the only impact of choosing a school was the free consumable. To my mind, the more important impact of Pathfinder training is the actual training with lore and the free fifth level skill feat. I have to go to Character Creation to find out about those.

On Field Agents

I do like that field agents also get a free lore and skill feat now, which reflects that real world learning can offer different benefits from Pathfinder specific training. I do like that all four of the feats offered allow Field Agents a variety of ways to make the most of their downtime, or to focus more on their jobs. Those are four very appropriate feats to choose from!

Hmm

[Pip Hip Hooray]

Cross-Posted from Home Region and Languages in Guide 2.0 thread

I am bummed that the language of the guide changed from regional languages being common choices to uncommon choices. It's affecting all of my character's language choices, since all four of my characters selected regional languages at creation that made sense to their back stories. I will now have to change those languages to the ones to which their ancestries provided access.

I did notice that the CRB put regional languages as uncommon options, but with the guide listing them as common, I assumed that it was an uncommon option made available to Pathfinders (like Wayfinders or Kobold ancestry) because of our extensive travel.

I am holding back on shuffling around Pip's languages for the moment because she is from Absalom, and there is some uncertainty on whether being from Absalom allows access to all the regional languages, as suggested on p. 12 of Lost Omens World Guide and p. 432 of the Core Rule Book. She's a Gnome polyglot with linguist archetype and a high intelligence, which makes the process of disentangling her various languages more daunting then normal.

My other three characters are going to have to have to adapt and shift out the regional tongues that I thought would be fitting to their backstories with ancestral ones, which in my mind is ripping out part of their personal backstories.

I plea that the campaign reconsider the idea of granting common access to regional languages for Pathfinder Society agents. It fits the story of our world-spanning organization, and I don't think it breaks any game balance.

Yours,
Hmm

[FLite]

Hmm wrote:

On Field Agents

I do like that field agents also get a free lore and skill feat now

Minor thing, just because I had to keep fixing it when I did it myself.

All (current) PFS2 characters are Field Agents. (There is not yet a way for a PFS2 character to become a Venture Captain.

Some are Field Commissioned.