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So, through discussion with other posters I believe we identified a pretty significant pain point for some players and I figured I could create a place to seperate out further discussion on the topic to see who all agreed, and what ideas people had for addressing it.
Specifically, in this case, the callous is Boost Eidolon (and by extension, Reinforce Eidolon).
Discussion on various topics had focused on largely different play experiences thus far, and one of the focus points was Action Economy.
I do not prioritize Boost Eidolon - I consider it less important to my rotation, and therefore I had a great time playing around with my superior 4 action economy without significant limitations in what I was doing.
For other players for whom damage is a higher priority, the perceived need to cast Boost Eidolon was essentially removing any perceived benefit of an increased action economy.
This was negative enough that even a reduced benefit was perceived as a favorable exchange.
Due to the setup of the class, a perceived action advantage is, imo, likely to be essential to making a companion "feel" good for the summoner.
Some ideas to make these currently "mandatory" actions play better-
Make them function as stances, requiring a single action to establish and allowing the summoner to switch between them as a further action (possibly with enhancements through feats like free switching).
Turning them into focus spells with enhanced or varied functionality (concerns were raised with any math fixers competing with other focus options).
Rolling the benefits into the base Statline of the Eidolon, even at a reduced rate.
While I personally don't have an issue with the current state of this action economy, i can certainly empathize with the idea that its reducing the enjoyment of others in the class - especially if its reducing the element for them that I think helps define the class.
If anyone else has input, here's the thread.
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Firstly I want to say thank you for opening up this line of dialogue between what has become the biggest pain point for me over any other aspect of the summoner by a wide margin.
I do have minor suggestion to break down the options numerically for the readers.
For myself in order of preference.
Removal of boost eidolon and a slight buff too base eidolon performance but not to the level of boost eidolon currently. This gives me the most freedom for the class. While some players might feel tempted to go into a dedication for another action similar to boost eidolon (bard), I wouldn't necessarily feel that pull at all and instead would feel free to use that open action for various uses that honestly would excite me.
My second is stances. As I'm not a huge fan of that set-up round. I can deal
I don't personally want the other.
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Removal of boost eidolon and a slight buff too base eidolon performance but not to the level of boost eidolon currently. This gives me the most freedom for the class. While some players might feel tempted to go into a dedication for another action similar to boost eidolon (bard), I wouldn't necessarily feel that pull at all and instead would feel free to use that open action for various uses that honestly would excite me.
Agreed. With in class buffs sitting there, you want to use them especially when it doesn't take a resource to use: it's a different story if you have to multiclass for it.
My second is stances. As I'm not a huge fan of that set-up round. I can deal
I don't personally want the other.
Agreed, Not a fan but if it was that or the current form I'd pick stances.
Focus: This would be my least favorite fix as it's going to compete with your cool and interesting focus abilities. I'd rather spend points on things like Evolution Surge that can nifty thing rather than on something that feels like a math fixer.
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Maybe if it was part of the Act Together? Everytime that you Act Together you choose between boost or reinforce and that is what affect the Eidolon until the end of the turn.
Maybe if it was part of the Act Together? Everytime that you Act Together you choose between boost or reinforce and that is what affect the Eidolon until the end of the turn.
I'd be happy with it.
Maybe if it was part of the Act Together? Everytime that you Act Together you choose between boost or reinforce and that is what affect the Eidolon until the end of the turn.
I dislike that a fair amount unless we get the marks version of the variable act together. And it's a free action as a part of said activity.
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I was preparing a multi-page essay on Boost Eidolon as a starter for a thread like this due to it being inexplicably absent, so needless to say I'll have more thoughts to say once I have enough time to finish compiling my thoughts and proposals, but thanks for getting this thread out there.
Currently I'm leaning towards an in-between of sorts between current Boost and the "tied to Act Together" method of essentially making it a free action with a restriction to generating it.
Tl;dr from my current thoughts: I think the best in-between that would satisfy both camps would be giving a lesser benefit through either positioning or some other hidden action cost, and then having a Focus Cantrip/spells that costs 1 action, spiking the existing damage bonuses when invested. Realistically, this would probably be balanced similarly to Swashbuckler panache, e.g., a scaling bonus that adds +X but then spikes to +Xd6 on 1A cast. If it was tied to a real focus spell, it could maybe have additional condition riders or higher scaling, but I'm still working through my thoughts and analysis so I'll have things better formatted and explained within the next few days.
I like Boost Eidolon with Boost Summons with a summoned creature and eidolon. That's a fun play-style.
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Having Boost Eidolon/Reinforce Eidolon as eidolon stances makes for interesting tactical decisions and eases up on the feel-bad nature of casting it every round.
I think the problem is less "spamming boost/reinforce eidolon" and more "the summoner doesn't have much else good to do with their actions."
To wit:
- Your combat proficiencies aren't great and your eidolon hits harder than you do.
- Most spells are 2 actions and thus don't work with "Work Together" and would leave the Eidolon with only one action.
I'd rather have something where you can cast a 2 action spell and leave your Eidolon with 2 actions than to mess with the focus cantrips.
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I think the problem is less "spamming boost/reinforce eidolon" and more "the summoner doesn't have much else good to do with their actions."
To wit:
- Your combat proficiencies aren't great and your eidolon hits harder than you do.
- Most spells are 2 actions and thus don't work with "Work Together" and would leave the Eidolon with only one action.I'd rather have something where you can cast a 2 action spell and leave your Eidolon with 2 actions than to mess with the focus cantrips.
There was a proposed consideration from Mark Seifter in another thread that brought in the idea of Act Together being changed to a 1-to-3 action ability that let either the Eidolon or the Summoner to perform an action/activity that took that many actions to perform and gave a 1-action to the other. Its probably worth campaigning for it to make it into the final publication, since it fixes a ton of the current economy issues.
I think the problem is less "spamming boost/reinforce eidolon" and more "the summoner doesn't have much else good to do with their actions."
To wit:
- Your combat proficiencies aren't great and your eidolon hits harder than you do.
- Most spells are 2 actions and thus don't work with "Work Together" and would leave the Eidolon with only one action.I'd rather have something where you can cast a 2 action spell and leave your Eidolon with 2 actions than to mess with the focus cantrips.
If NOTHING else, you can use skills/skill feats: Demoralize, Bon Mot, Recall, Battle Medicine, Distracting Performance, Create a Diversion, Sneak, Hide, ect.
Myself, I find the pattern of Act Together [Boost, strike], strike, Reinforce are what turns look like. There are other things you can do but it feels like you lose out on your 'pseudo-martial' if you don't: it's like a rogue that doesn't bother to sneak attack, a ranger that doesn't Hunt Prey, an Investigator that doesn't Devise, ect.
If the idea that Mark was shooting for was eventually getting Boost Summons, so that your fighting style was to use a summoned creature and an eidolon at the same time then Boost Eidolon should not be stronger. As I'm tracking if you have an eidolon and a summoned creature working in tandem, then you are doing barbarian level of damage.
I like this play-style myself. It makes Boost Eidolon very worthwhile.
But to make this play-style work you would need a Divine Font like number of summon spells and you could ditch the regular spell slots as you wouldn't have the actions to use them.
It's important that boost eidolon not become too easy to use if you take into account the Boost Summons feats. That bonus when given to a summoned creature can get quite nasty.
This fighting style is the first time I've seen summoned monsters as a viable strategy. I'd love to see them build around it where they get rid of the casting and make your spell the bestiary. But the only monsters viable in battle are max level summon monsters which would require a more top level slots or you would be stuck using this strategy twice per day.
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purely “this is my mandatory action every turn, and it could give 1,000,000 damage but it would still not be fun because it removes freedom of choice for my action economy”
This one. +1 or + 1 million still ends up with you pushing the same 'buttons' every round: act together [boost, strike], strike, reinforce...
If the idea that Mark was shooting for was eventually getting Boost Summons, so that your fighting style was to use a summoned creature and an eidolon at the same time then Boost Eidolon should not be stronger. As I'm tracking if you have an eidolon and a summoned creature working in tandem, then you are doing barbarian level of damage.
Holy crap, the action cost. You spend an entire round to summon then you get 1 less attack from your pet and 2 from the summons [so it takes you 2 rounds before you break even] while you still don't get to do anything else... That doesn't sound great to me.
purely “this is my mandatory action every turn, and it could give 1,000,000 damage but it would still not be fun because it removes freedom of choice for my action economy”This one. +1 or + 1 million still ends up with you pushing the same 'buttons' every round: act together [boost, strike], strike, reinforce...
If the idea that Mark was shooting for was eventually getting Boost Summons, so that your fighting style was to use a summoned creature and an eidolon at the same time then Boost Eidolon should not be stronger. As I'm tracking if you have an eidolon and a summoned creature working in tandem, then you are doing barbarian level of damage.Holy crap, the action cost. You spend an entire round to summon then you get 1 less attack from your pet and 2 from the summons [so it takes you 3 rounds before you break even] while you still don't get to do anything else... That doesn't sound great to me.
What else do you want to be able to do as a summoner? If you want to be able to do something else, then you play a different character.
Even in the original mode, you are basically using your eidiolon to attack without much else you can do effectively with shared MAP and hit points.
Using the summon strategy you gain the following advantages after the first round:
1. Act Together: Boost Eidolon and Attack with eidolon.
2. Sustain Spell: Use 2 actions with creature with no MAP.
3. 3rd Action: Attack a last time with eidolon, move, or a skill.
That is a total round of 5 actions.
This means that you are not doing much, but you are commanding creatures to do things. Which means you need to think about the creatures you summon as your spells, skills, and the like. You need to come up with creative use of summoned creatures.
How is that not cool for a class called the summoner?
1. Eidolon is your bread and butter attack sequence like a martial sword.
2. Summoned creatures are your spellbook, skills, and other variables that allow you to mix it up.
Once I read that Mark seemed to have this idea in his head that the summoner would be using a summoned creature at the same time as the eidolon, that vision fell into place as the ultimate summoner. Your spellbook now becomes the creatures you summon rather than some small number of spell slots.
That seems to fit thematically and mechanically the concept of the class. It gives you a lot of room to play with each new bestiary released an expansion of your abilities.
That sounds pretty fun to me. Definitely fits the concept and gives makes you the most effective user of summoned creatures like the druid is the best user of shapechanging.
Open your mind a bit to the idea having to build strategies for combat around summoned creatures. So you don't spend much time thinking about what you the summoner can do, but what you can do with summons to support your eidolon.
I think the problem is less "spamming boost/reinforce eidolon" and more "the summoner doesn't have much else good to do with their actions."
To wit:
- Your combat proficiencies aren't great and your eidolon hits harder than you do.
- Most spells are 2 actions and thus don't work with "Work Together" and would leave the Eidolon with only one action.I'd rather have something where you can cast a 2 action spell and leave your Eidolon with 2 actions than to mess with the focus cantrips.
There was a proposed consideration from Mark Seifter in another thread that brought in the idea of Act Together being changed to a 1-to-3 action ability that let either the Eidolon or the Summoner to perform an action/activity that took that many actions to perform and gave a 1-action to the other. Its probably worth campaigning for it to make it into the final publication, since it fixes a ton of the current economy issues.
Yeah, the "make act together a 1-3 action activity that leaves the other one with one action" really solves a lot of the problems with the class.
Doing that, giving the summoner better focus spells (maybe a summon monster one), and giving the Eidolon more action variety (I have an occult eidolon, it only strikes, strides, and reacts) would solve most of the issues I've had.
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Postulate: Eidolon in its current iteration will be behind full martial class effectiveness from a raw options standpoint.
This postulate exists to address any concerns about where an Eidolon should stand in relation to Martials. If we assume that Eidolons will be weaker as a result of their available combat options, we can adjust Boost Eidolon to be in-line with the single-action damage boosts of other classes without fear of overshadowing those martial classes, as their combat options obtained through feats will make them inherently more versatile - and thus, superior to - the Eidolon.
That stated, let’s examine Boost Eidolon in its current state before we compare it to other classes.
BOOST EIDOLON - CANTRIP 1
UNCOMMON CANTRIP EVOCATION SUMMONER
Cast: [one-action] verbal
Range: 100 feet;
Targets: your eidolon
Duration: 1 roundYou focus deeply on the link between you and your eidolon and boost the power of your eidolon’s attacks. Your eidolon gains a +2 status bonus to damage rolls with their unarmed attacks. If your eidolon’s Strikes deal more than one weapon damage die, the status bonus increases to 2 per weapon damage die, to a maximum of +8 with four weapon damage dice. (Effectively, the increases are +4@Level 4, +6@L12, and +8@L19. Can boost multiple hits.)
What are the spell’s goals?
-Create a Single-Action buff spell that can be activated through Act Together to boost the Eidolon on turns the Summoner decides to put their attention towards the front line.
-Emphasize the link between the Summoner and Eidolon through a bread-and-butter element of the kit.
-Boosted damage should put the Eidolon roughly on-par-with, or slightly below, similar effects from other classes.
What are the spells issues?
-Issue 1. As we will see, Boost Eidolon is currently weaker than most martial single-action boosts by a noticeable margin.
-Issue 2. Casting Boost Eidolon eliminates any action economy advantage the Summoner would otherwise gain from utilizing Act Together. This presents an interesting problem, as Boost Eidolon may in fact be being balanced around _not_ being a 1-action ability, but instead be balanced as a pseudo-free-action effect due to Act Together giving Summoners an above-average number of actions. While I do not personally agree with this interpretation, it is possible that it is part of the metric that was used to decide the current Damage bonus that Boost Eidolon would confer. This will be worth at least keeping in mind going forward.
**Ranger: Hunt Prey/Precision Edge: Adds 1d8 damage from level 1. Gives some minor side boosts, has a chance of being set up beforehand and continuing multiple rounds if the target is sturdy. Becomes Summoner/Eidolon action economy vs multiple targets. Has a noticeable exception in that Animal Companion can proc it a second time at an attack accuracy only a few points behind Ranger. Pull factors of the Precision Edge and greater Ranger playstyle is an increased focus on nailing down one target hard and fast, potentially from a long range where appropriate.
Average DPS Increase for Precision, 1hit: +4.5 @Level 1, +9 @L11, +13.5 @L19.
Average DPS Increase for Precision, 2hit: +4.5 @1, +9 @L11, +13.5 @L17, +18 @L19.
Average DPS Increase for Precision, 1hit +1hit,Companion: +9 @1, +18 @L11, +27 @L19.
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**Barbarian: Rage: Adds +2 damage by default, many boost higher. 1 Action to enter into, stays active after cast. -1 AC. Restricts useable actions, but not so much as to be noticeable by the average player in an average combat. Pull factors of the Barbarian playstyle include being a big, simple, angry beatstick that draws aggro through raw damage.
Average DPS Increase 1hit (Fury) +2 @1, +6 @7, +12 @15
Average DPS Increase 1hit (Dragon, set Element): +4 @1, +8 @7, +16 @15
Average DPS Increase 1hit (Giant, further AC penalty): +6 @1, +10 @7, +18 @15
Average DPS Increase 2hit (Fury) +4 @1, +12 @7, +24 @15
Average DPS Increase 2hit (Dragon): +8 @1, +16 @7, +32 @15
Average DPS Increase 2hit (Giant): +12 @1, +20 @7, +36 @15
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**Rogue: Sneak Attack. Applicable through achieving Flat Footed on the target, typically by either having party assist or using a 1 action yourself to get into flank, feint, trip, etc. Chance of not requiring a re-up between turns with strategy or good party assistance. Pull factors for the Rogue playstyle include the use of non-standard actions or mobility as part of your average combat turn. Restricted weapon choice.
Average DPS Increase 1hit: +3.5 @1, +7 @5, +10.5 @11, +14 @17
Average DPS Increase 2hit: +7 @1, +14 @5, +21 @11, +28 @17
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**Swashbuckler: Precise Strike. Similar to Rogue in a lot of ways. Less position based, but still requires the use of an action to set up Panache in most instances. Less damage than rogue on average, but the requirement of re-upping the effect is more built-in, with less of a chance of being primed automatically going into a fresh turn.
Average DPS Increase 1hit: +2 @1, +3 @5, +4 @9, +5 @13, +6 @17
Average DPS Increase Finisher: +7 @1, +10.5 @5, +14 @9, +17.5 @13 +21 @17
Average DPS Increase 2hit: +4 @1, +6 @5, +8 @9, +10 @13, +12 @17
Average DPS Increase 1hit + Finisher: +9 @1, +13.5 @5, +18 @9, +22.5 @13, +27 @17
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**Summoner: current Boost Eidolon. Guaranteed +2 to damage per-hit, must be re-upped every turn. Can potentially be considered less than 1 action due to Act Together, but due to being two bodies controlled at once, the action crunch is easily noticeable. Does not stack with Bard Inspire Courage, a drawback only it has; also interferes with other buff spells the summoner could choose to use on their eidolon as well.
Average DPS Increase 1hit: +2 @1, +4 @4, +6 @12, +8 @19.
Average DPS Increase 2hit: +4 @1, +8 @4, +12 @12, +16 @19.
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Analysis
Summoner currently trends close to Swashbuckler 1-act damage increase but without the burst potential. Seems a bit off to me, and most people here seem to agree with it. Not only is the burst damage missing as an option, but the way you acquire the damage boost as a Swashbuckler can lead to bonuses to the Swashbuckler’s accuracy, or otherwise perform a more active combat role instead of just doing nothing and gaining a similar bonus. Granted, Swashbuckler does have a chance of failure that the Summoner equivalent lacks, but the active nature of the Swashbuckler’s boost seems to be preferable to the Summoner’s sedentary playstyle.
Average single action hit damage tends to be roughly double what the Eidolon is getting. We could modify the damage to instead add +3 per die, add d6’s (3.5) instead, or add some form of additional utility. However, it still requires constant re-upping, which means it still leads to sedentary play as currently written.
Elemental Damage:Others have suggested giving the effect the option to apply Elemental damage to weakness hunt like in Deriven’s thread. While an interesting and flavorful option for many eidolons, it may end up being difficult trying to accurately balance an effect that can hunt for elemental weaknesses, as afaik there isn’t a real analog for this in any other Martial. In addition, assuming accurate knowledge results, elemental damage will wildly swing from being potentially too strong to being a non-factor in combat. That said, it does convey “magical boost” well as a concept, so I won’t dismiss it as an option.
Perhaps a variant of Boost Eidolon could exist that, instead of giving a status bonus to damage, could give a bonus to damage based on the eidolon’s type or attributes? E.g, elemental damage tied to a dragon’s breath weapon, additional Good damage for Angel Eidolons, Mental/Negative damage for Phantoms, Precision damage (yeah idk) for Beasts? Adding a type to the damage could serve as a pretense to make the damage not be a Status bonus, so this could be a clever workaround to the Inspire Courage/Buff Spell overlap issue. This option can certainly help Issue 1, but doesn’t do much to help any of the other concerns.
Other utility options: These could perhaps include adding to non-damage stats (Perhaps a speed or to-hit bonus?). Another option that could be considered in this regard could be modifying Reinforce Eidolon into a rider for Boost Eidolon, perhaps a focus spell free action or Metamagic feat that adds the effects onto Boost?
Moving the Action Cost elsewhere: The Rogue solution. Rather than putting the action cost directly into the spell, make the action cost be hidden by requiring Positioning or some other form of setup. This could make the spell turn into a free action potentially, or it could remain a 1-action but use the additional implicit action cost as a counterbalance for a stronger effect. Could provide an interesting solution to Issue 2 with a good enough concept.
Add in more one-action options to boost combat effectiveness of the Summoner/Eidolon pair: The unorthodox approach. Rather than enhancing Boost Eidolon, make more comparable buffs that could be used in place of Boost in a turn, and lean in on the flexibility of the 1-action buffs. I’ll mention some options on this front later on.
Goal: Move the action-cost into a positional mechanic, utilizing elements of the Summoner’s kit that are currently just flavor. Add in an option for Burst damage to make the effect more in-line with the Swashbuckler. I will not be using all of the options listed above, and this is admittedly just what I’d like to see after comparing it against the other 1-action effects.
SYNCHRONIZE FOCUS - CANTRIP 1
UNCOMMON CANTRIP EVOCATION SUMMONER EIDOLON TANDEM
Cast: [free-action] somatic
Range: 100 feet;
Trigger: You take the Act Together action.
Targets: your eidolon and 1 other creature
Duration: 1 roundYou communicate in tandem with your Eidolon, sharing combat insights about your shared foe. Target your Eidolon and 1 other creature. As long as one target is directly between you and the other target, your Eidolon’s strikes deal 2 additional precision damage. (Treat similar to rules for Partial Cover.)
If this is being cast as a Divine spell, you may instead deal Alignment damage that matches an alignment of your deity. If this is being cast as an Occult spell, you may instead deal Mental damage. If this is being cast as an Arcane or Primal spell, you may instead deal Fire, Acid, Electricity, Water, Sonic or Cold damage if your Eidolon has the matching trait (or Cold in the case of the Water trait.).
Heightened (+2) Increase the damage granted from this effect by 1.
SYNCHRONIZED SOUL - FOCUS 1
UNCOMMON CANTRIP EVOCATION SUMMONER EIDOLON TANDEM
Cast: [one-action] verbal
Range: 100 feet;
Targets: your eidolon
Duration: 1 roundFor precious seconds, you transfer your soul into your Eidolon’s body, fighting as a united front. For the rest of this turn, only your Eidolon can act. Instead of adding the usual damage from Synchronize Focus to your Eidolons attacks, add 1d6 damage of the associated type.
Heightened (+2) Increase the damage granted from this effect by 1d6.
Average DPS Increase 1hit: +2 @1, +3 @5, +4 @9, +5 @13, +6 @17.
Average DPS Increase Synchronized Soul 1hit: +3.5 @1/2*, +7 @5, +10.5 @9, +14 @13, +17.5 @17.Average DPS Increase 2hit: +4 @1, +6 @5, +8 @9, +10 @13, +12 @17
Average DPS Increase Synchronized Soul 2hit: +7 @1/2*, +14 @5, +21 @9, +28 @13, +35 @17.
--Action cost is moved to positioning, allowing the potential for it to be upkept passively from turn-to-turn. Even when not upkept, encourages repositioning instead of sedentary play.
--The option to use alternative damage types tied to the Eidolon’s theming has been added.
--Damage is not universal; if Eidolon defeats the target on the first hit, the damage doesn’t carry over to other targets. Not an overly-noticeable loss, but a sacrifice that can easily be made to put it in line with Rogue/Swashbuckler ability balance.
--Makes use of the idea of the Eidolon’s soul tether to create a unique positioning mechanic.
--Damage increase tied to more regular spell scaling, balanced to be more in-line with Swashbuckler.
--The option for burst damage is added in as an additional spell option, limited through the Focus Point mechanic. Trade off for not being able to be used every turn like Swashbuckler’s Precise Strike is the ability to potentially proc the damage multiple times in the same turn. Removes the ability to Reinforce Eidolon or similar cantrips after the attacks, turning it into an all-in effect as a tradeoff.
--If Act Together gets adjusted to Mark’s variant, adjust the burst option to a full 2-action spell, restricting it to not work with effects like Draconic Frenzy that grant additional attacks.
--No longer steps on buff spells that grant Status bonuses to attacks/damage.
Long post, I think I collated most of the points/info fairly well in the first three parts. 4th part is what I'd personally work for as a solution, but I'm willing to workshop other takes as well.
Thought of another simple, fairly obvious solution. Why don't we just make Boost last until the end of your *next* turn? This essentially makes it cost "half" an action and lets you mix up actions a lot more freely.
What do you all intend to do with your other actions? I'm not quite getting it. What do people picture themselves doing with other actions with the current iteration of the summoner?
Even someone like me who wants a more independent creature with a separate hit point pool doesn't really picture myself doing something else.
In PF1 you pretty much sent the summoner into battle, buffed him a bit and let him fight while you stood back healing on occasion, buffing the eidolon, and generally not doing a whole lot else.
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Thought of another simple, fairly obvious solution. Why don't we just make Boost last until the end of your *next* turn? This essentially makes it cost "half" an action and lets you mix up actions a lot more freely.What do you all intend to do with your other actions? I'm not quite getting it. What do people picture themselves doing with other actions with the current iteration of the summoner?
Even someone like me who wants a more independent creature with a separate hit point pool doesn't really picture myself doing something else.
In PF1 you pretty much sent the summoner into battle, buffed him a bit and let him fight while you stood back healing on occasion, buffing the eidolon, and generally not doing a whole lot else.
It frees up a number of options.
1 I'm CHA based so Demoralize & Bon Mot are good options2 Situationally it could make casting a spell optimal
3 If I have an animal companion, it allows me to give them a few actions
4 I could take out a potion to heal my Eidolon and me up a bit
5 If I've got an archetype with a decent 1 action ability (there are lots) I could use that
6 I could cast Guidence on a party member
7 I could move to position the Eidolon or myself better (this is a very mobile game)
In this game, there are lots of things one can do with an action.
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Thought of another simple, fairly obvious solution. Why don't we just make Boost last until the end of your *next* turn? This essentially makes it cost "half" an action and lets you mix up actions a lot more freely.What do you all intend to do with your other actions? I'm not quite getting it. What do people picture themselves doing with other actions with the current iteration of the summoner?
Even someone like me who wants a more independent creature with a separate hit point pool doesn't really picture myself doing something else.
In PF1 you pretty much sent the summoner into battle, buffed him a bit and let him fight while you stood back healing on occasion, buffing the eidolon, and generally not doing a whole lot else.
It frees up a number of options.
1 I'm CHA based so Demoralize & Bon Mot are good options
2 Situationally it could make casting a spell optimal
3 If I have an animal companion, it allows me to give them a few actions
4 I could take out a potion to heal my Eidolon and me up a bit
5 If I've got an archetype with a decent 1 action ability (there are lots) I could use that
6 I could cast Guidence on a party member
7 I could move to position the Eidolon or myself better (this is a very mobile game)In this game, there are lots of things one can do with an action.
Yeah, one of my favorite emergent things about 2E is that no one should be limited on a cool thing to do with their third action once they start looking at the game as a whole.
While its contentious as to whether or not there needs to be a good third action 'in class' for most folks, if you have an action available there's a lot of useful stuff to do with it.
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I'd rather they come up with something else for summoner to make summons better rather than keep the action lock that is boost.
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What else do you want to be able to do as a summoner?
Maybe what other people can do that DON'T have every single action pretty much locked down? I don't think it's a HUGE ask to have the class interact with the 3 actions system past a single set of actions.
Using the summon strategy you gain the following advantages after the first round:
1. Act Together: Boost Eidolon and Attack with eidolon.
2. Sustain Spell: Use 2 actions with creature with no MAP.
3. 3rd Action: Attack a last time with eidolon, move, or a skill.
That is a total round of 5 actions.
#1 it's a trick that only works 4 times a day.
#2 Doesn't do anything to switch up play: you swap Strike with Sustain. That sure made me feel like I did something new...How is that not cool for a class called the summoner?
It's not cool in almost every way possible IMO.
1. Eidolon is your bread and butter attack sequence like a martial sword.
#1 would be ok if you had some freedom in your actions: "a martial sword" can do a LOT, LOT more than Strike. Give the pets some actual abilities past that and you'd actually have some interesting play. As it is now it's just plain old bread as we don't even get something as exciting as butter to put on it.
2. Summoned creatures are your spellbook, skills, and other variables that allow you to mix it up.
Just no: I could get behind that idea for someone that focuses on summoning instead of a pet but for the generic summoner? Not so much. It's 1 once per fight ability at most before you get back to button smashing. You really aren't adding much new, just replacing Strike with sustain into your button smashing routine. *yawn* Wake me up when it's over.
Once I read that Mark seemed to have this idea in his head that the summoner would be using a summoned creature at the same time as the eidolon, that vision fell into place as the ultimate summoner. Your spellbook now becomes the creatures you summon rather than some small number of spell slots.
So your small number of spell slots became your small number of spell slots? If it works for you, great but I don't see the vision.
Open your mind a bit to the idea having to build strategies for combat around summoned creatures. So you don't spend much time thinking about what you the summoner can do, but what you can do with summons to support your eidolon.
I thought about it and forcing in another action into an action starved class just makes it seem that much more starved: you get to do EVEN LESS not more. All you managed to do is make more rolls, not make your actions more interesting. And with only 4 slots you're locking yourself into a particular Summoning spell unless you are filling your slots with different ones even further limiting your other actions. And on the other hand, some lists aren't exactly chock full of summoning spells: occult has 1 at 1st and 1 at 5th... Hope you like what you get.
Bottom line I'd be interested in options that make my play experience better with the pet and with summons, especially with action cost and versatility in mind. What I don't think I have to have forced on me is that the only way to play is to have a tag team match every combat to play the viable way to play: I want Eidolon only to be a viable, fun and interesting option. I want all summoning spells only to be a viable, fun and interesting option. And if you WANT to tag team, same for that. I totally reject a 1 size fits all, 'one true vision' of how a class is meant to run.
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I totally reject a 1 size fits all, 'one true vision' of how a class is meant to run.
Especially since we're essentially extremely close to having a class where the sky is the limit.
I like that I can swing mini-healer plus eidolon.
I'm essentially certain that bard plus eidolon is a fantastic support setup.
I'm fairly cerain that summoner tag-team with eidolon is viable via Sentinel, but I can see how they'd REALLY like to recover the action that is essentially spoke for through boost eidolon atm.
I'm fairly certain that if we have the more versatile version of act together, a sit back and cast while your eidolon does two things playstyle will be viable, so long as one is willing to dip into scrolls and use cantrips (with the understanding that cantrip damage is augmented via martial eidolon).
A second string anything, plus viable but low tier martial, sounds great to me.
Theres all sorts of skill shenanigans that can be got up to, especially with charisma based skills, with a backfield summoner and frontline Eidolon.
I dont even think all this takes that much (fix attack bonus and ac gaps, fix act together), but it does rely on a 4 action economy and Boost Eidolon is "in the way" for some of the above concepts WAY more than others, essentially meaning some Summoners are stuck with a 3 action economy where others are not.
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Maybe what other people can do that DON'T have every single action pretty much locked down? I don't think it's a HUGE ask to have the class interact with the 3 actions system past a single set of actions.
What they do with there 3rd action is entirely class dependent.
Druid: 3rd action is usually make an attack, send in animal companion, or move.
Barbarian: Move, Renewed Vigor. On opening round giant status.
#1 it's a trick that only works 4 times a day.
#2 Doesn't do anything to switch up play: you swap Strike with Sustain. That sure made me feel like I did something new...
It would only be 2 times a day without a summoning font-like ability. One level lower spells summon creatures that are too weak.
You are very wrong about not switching up play. The 2 actions of your summoned creatures now become your two actions. As in you get to pick what they do.
IF they can grapple, you can grapple.
If they can cast a spell, you can cast that spell.
If they can use a special ability, you can use that special ability.
If they have an aura, you have that aura.
If they can intimidate, you can intimidate.
So you viewing this as what you the summoner can do is limiting yourself to very simple actions because creatures have access to actions you will never have access to.
That sustain spell you claim is just a sustain you could do something else interesting with is a complete falsehood. Other creatures can do things more interesting than you can do.
You can even have a creature come over, draw a potion, and pour it into your mouth.
It's not cool in almost every way possible IMO.
It is extremely cool in ways you don't seem to be thinking about.
So your small number of spell slots became your small number of spell slots? If it works for you, great but I don't see the vision.
Which is why I say a Summoning Font with max-level spell slots usable on a variety of summons is the only way this works.
I thought about it and forcing in another action into an action starved class just makes it seem that much more starved: you get to do EVEN LESS not more. All you managed to do is make more rolls, not make your actions more interesting. And with only 4 slots you're locking yourself into a particular Summoning spell unless you are filling your slots with different ones even further limiting your other actions. And on the other hand, some lists aren't exactly chock full of summoning spells: occult has 1 at 1st and 1 at 5th... Hope you like what you get.
You're not considering how this works. You will not be action starved. You will gain actions.
Think about what your round looks like after you cast the summons:
1. Act Together: 2 actions. Boost Eidolon and Summons and Eidolon Attacks.
2. Sustain: Gain 2 actions for your crreature.
You get 2 actions to let a creature do what they can do.
Grapple.
Cast a spell.
Use a breath weapon.
Move to you and draw an item from you to use.
Intimidate.
Trip.
Attack.
Apply aura.
Use a 1 or 2 action special ability.
It all depends on what you summon and what they are capable of.
3. Use 3rd action.
Attack with Eidolon.
Drink the potion the summoned creature drew.
Use skill.
Draw something.
Attack yourself (worthless with shared map)
So your action starved class with your single eidolon with actions the summoner can't do much with suddenly becomes a class with
Act Together: 2 actions.
Sustained: gain 2 actions with creature.
One additional action.
A 5 action, highly variable class whose limits are only those limits that the summoned creature can do.
And you think that you can somehow design a better use of your actions with 4 spell slots and some skills? I don't think you can. I think not using summoned creatures will leave you more limited than if you did.
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i think summoning spells should be an option, not the default.
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i think summoning spells should be an option, not the default.
I would like it as an option as well.
Some ideas of summoners I like:
1. The master summoner supporting his eidolon with summoned creatures.
2. The war summoner who fights alongside his eidolon with a weapon or spell.
3. The caster summoner who casts while fighting with the summoner.
I think they should build in the first and third one and let Multiclassing handle the second one. I think you can build a multiclass summoner who can fight and cast if you so choose. While the base default summoner should be focused on a few areas:
1. Master Summoner: Summoned creatures to support eidolon. Very cool play-style. Probably the one I would choose.
2. Eidolon Focus: One tricked out, suped up eidolon you support. This is the one that should leave feats open for multiclassing as this would be the one to put a multiclass on to flavor the actual summoner PC in a way that fits what they want to do. This is so varied in choice as to be impossible to build directly into the summoner. So it should be designed with multiclassing in mind.
3. Synthesist: Joined together summoner like the synthesist was that plays like a power-armored suit or similar.
That would give the design team 3 areas to build around that would allow them to adjust the base class to fit those three customizations.
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Absolutely agree with DF here. Not 100% on leaving eidolon hanging out with less feat support (A lot of people really like the "this is a multiclass class" and that's fine, I suppose). I'd definitely like to see those three avenues explored more thoroughly.
** spoiler omitted **...
Good thoughts! I like the idea of the positional aspect being tied into the class's damage, it's been brought up elsewhere as well, and the extra damage types are fun too. The "rest of the actions can only be done by Eidolon" part of Synchronized Soul seems self-defeating and really awkward to do well, though, I don't think that would add anything positive to the class the way positional elements would.
I'd be interested in seeing what else they could come up with, but just tweaking Boost to use the general action/damage structure of Swashbuckler isn't a bad option. :o
...
100%
Sub-classes that focus on areas people want to commit to.Whereby a division of power is attributed differently.
(Power Total: 4)
Eidolon Caller (Regular Summoner)
Power: 2/2 Equal
Synthesist
Power: 0/4 Leaning toward Eidolon
Master Summoner
Power: 4/0 Leaning toward Summoner