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Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
You could see a bullet to the leg as a increase in your speed man. It's bordering nonsensical to the point where I suspect your being tongue in cheek but I fear you are not.
You could see a bullet to the leg as a increase in your speed man. It's bordering nonsensical to the point where I suspect your being tongue in cheek but I fear you are not.Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
I feel the same coming from your arguments most times... Outside of that... Having the same hp pool is a advantage to me. Less book tracking able to grant a "half caster" a 10 hp per level instead of a probable 6/6 split.
But I do feel like currently there's a problem with eidolon stats... They shouldn't get ability boosts with their stats mattering so little. Automatic progression or an simplified one would probably fit this niche better.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You could see a bullet to the leg as a increase in your speed man. It's bordering nonsensical to the point where I suspect your being tongue in cheek but I fear you are not.Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
I feel the same coming from your arguments most times... Outside of that... Having the same hp pool is a advantage to me. Less book tracking able to grant a "half caster" a 10 hp per level instead of a probable 6/6 split.
But I do feel like currently there's a problem with eidolon stats... They shouldn't get ability boosts with their stats mattering so little. Automatic progression or an simplified one would probably fit this niche better.
Considering how little the summoner can do. And the combined hp of a ranger with a pet.
I fail to see how a 6/10 is overpowered.
Not when it's the entire point of the class, you can much more easily balance that point and not have a boring detrimental class.
You could see a bullet to the leg as a increase in your speed man. It's bordering nonsensical to the point where I suspect your being tongue in cheek but I fear you are not.Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
I feel the same coming from your arguments most times... Outside of that... Having the same hp pool is a advantage to me. Less book tracking able to grant a "half caster" a 10 hp per level instead of a probable 6/6 split.
But I do feel like currently there's a problem with eidolon stats... They shouldn't get ability boosts with their stats mattering so little. Automatic progression or an simplified one would probably fit this niche better.Considering how little the summoner can do. And the combined hp of a ranger with a pet.
I fail to see how a 6/10 is overpowered.
Not when it's the entire point of the class, you can much more easily balance that point and not have a boring detrimental class.
The class has an almost full spell progression and it's slots are almost a given to be used for buffs... You are basically a "full caster" progression for 1 fight a day similar to an warpriest. And then for the rest of the day you are a qualified martial with proficiencies to keep it up and a few small buffs.
6-10 is fine but it would make it much easier to drop the summoner and then eidolon is gone needing 3 actions just to lift the eidolon again. 10 hit points make it harder to drop the summoner if anything I would rather see 8/6 summoner/eidolon. But then again 10 total seems perfectly fine to me.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The class has an almost full spell progression and it's slots are almost a...You could see a bullet to the leg as a increase in your speed man. It's bordering nonsensical to the point where I suspect your being tongue in cheek but I fear you are not.Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
I feel the same coming from your arguments most times... Outside of that... Having the same hp pool is a advantage to me. Less book tracking able to grant a "half caster" a 10 hp per level instead of a probable 6/6 split.
But I do feel like currently there's a problem with eidolon stats... They shouldn't get ability boosts with their stats mattering so little. Automatic progression or an simplified one would probably fit this niche better.Considering how little the summoner can do. And the combined hp of a ranger with a pet.
I fail to see how a 6/10 is overpowered.
Not when it's the entire point of the class, you can much more easily balance that point and not have a boring detrimental class.
It's much easier to manage one hurt box per hp pool and every single argument about how the summoner shouldn't get double teamed I've seen results in the same benefits to this idea with less space for unfortunate accidents.
The only way I can see the shared hp pool when work is if you give them d12hp and give them a base, powerful reaction that can be used to massively reduce the damage they take. Like maybe a reaction that uses a font system off your charisma and gives you both resistance to all damage so long as you are within a certain distance of each other and can see each other. Even then I'm not a fan.
You could see a bullet to the leg as a increase in your speed man. It's bordering nonsensical to the point where I suspect your being tongue in cheek but I fear you are not.Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
Could you give me your arguments in favor of "double hp pool is better than single hp pool"? Because if your argument is "double hp pool each the size of a single hp pool is better than single hp pool" then I agree. But I think you are the nonsensical one.
If the Eidolon and the Summoner had different hp pools, they would be at 6+Con each roughly (robe caster for the Summoner and Animal Companion for the Eidolon). They would be paper made compared to their 10+Con current hp pool.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only way I can see the shared hp pool when work is if you give them d12hp and give them a base, powerful reaction that can be used to massively reduce the damage they take. Like maybe a reaction that uses a font system off your charisma and gives you both resistance to all damage so long as you are within a certain distance of each other and can see each other. Even then I'm not a fan.
Did you stop and consider how this compares to what other classes, like a Champion can do?
Its wildly out of line with what the most defensive class in the game is capable if. Its a non-starter.
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The only way I can see the shared hp pool when work is if you give them d12hp and give them a base, powerful reaction that can be used to massively reduce the damage they take. Like maybe a reaction that uses a font system off your charisma and gives you both resistance to all damage so long as you are within a certain distance of each other and can see each other. Even then I'm not a fan.Did you stop and consider how this compares to what other classes, like a Champion can do?
Its wildly out of line with what the most defensive class in the game is capable if. Its a non-starter.
Current summoner is a non starter. /Shrug.
Current summoner is a non starter. /Shrug.The only way I can see the shared hp pool when work is if you give them d12hp and give them a base, powerful reaction that can be used to massively reduce the damage they take. Like maybe a reaction that uses a font system off your charisma and gives you both resistance to all damage so long as you are within a certain distance of each other and can see each other. Even then I'm not a fan.Did you stop and consider how this compares to what other classes, like a Champion can do?
Its wildly out of line with what the most defensive class in the game is capable if. Its a non-starter.
I dont see that based on adapting my Cleric into one. It yields a better (for my goals) and more interesting net character, who also has a broader range of capabilities due to the skill expansion.
She's somewhat boring to fight with, but her capabilities are excellent. We can fix boring.
Current summoner is a non starter. /Shrug.The only way I can see the shared hp pool when work is if you give them d12hp and give them a base, powerful reaction that can be used to massively reduce the damage they take. Like maybe a reaction that uses a font system off your charisma and gives you both resistance to all damage so long as you are within a certain distance of each other and can see each other. Even then I'm not a fan.Did you stop and consider how this compares to what other classes, like a Champion can do?
Its wildly out of line with what the most defensive class in the game is capable if. Its a non-starter.
I dont see that based on adapting my Cleric into one. It yields a better (for my goals) and more interesting net character, who also has a broader range of capabilities due to the skill expansion.
She's somewhat boring to fight with, but her capabilities are excellent. We can fix boring. [/QUOTE
In my play he has been nothing short of detrimental. Worse than a warpriest Wich already has issues. The eidolons only purpose has been to take up space and do ignoreable damage and allow for a way for the summoner to be hurt.The only purpose of the summoner has been to cast buffs of the fighter and boost the eidolon and reinforce it, while the eidolon offers a way for the summoner to be hurt.
In either situation, the warpriest would perform better and have more things to do.
The only ways I can see to make it less boring is by eliminating the one action upkeep abilities such as boost and roll it into the base class so it can go about being weak without the action investment opening up options for the summoner to do something, anything. And it's still boring, still weak, but it's better.
I dunno if I am the oddball or if you are expecting him to be a class that has just a pet on par with a martial. If that was the whole summoner thing yeah... Quite weak. But he gets a pet, 2 high casting slots without delay and 2 slots behind it.(I still think they should get 2 slots 3-4 bellow their highest one as flexible but that's my opinion that by the end they should have 2 6 slots, 2 8 and 2 9.)
And they get cool cantrips and actions they can do to the eidolon.
I think you are just seeing combat but the class excells even outside of it while being above for example an warpriest and probably even a druid of shape shifting.
Due to the proef issues.
In my play he has been nothing short of detrimental. Worse than a warpriest Wich already has issues. The eidolons only purpose has been to take up space and do ignoreable damage and allow for a way for the summoner to be hurt.The only purpose of the summoner has been to cast buffs of the fighter and boost the eidolon and reinforce it, while the eidolon offers a way for the summoner to be hurt.
In either situation, the warpriest would perform better and have more things to do.
The only ways I can see to make it less boring is by eliminating the one action upkeep abilities such as boost and roll it into the base class so it can go about being weak without the action investment opening up options for the summoner to do something, anything. And it's still boring, still weak, but it's better.
You have a different definition of Weak than I do.
A summoner isn't weak because they can't do a Barabarians job as well as a Barbarian, or a Rogues job as well as a Rogues, or a Wizards job almost as well as a Wizard.
My Summoner is awesome because my choice of Eidolon will let me be a sufficient, if inferior Cleric while bringing a cool companion to the party who can do all the physical things my waifish Cleric wishes she could do but can't. A Companion who fights almost, but not quite, as well as everyone else.
A companion who can assist her in all her pursuits, and be a guide and friend always.
In my play he has been nothing short of detrimental. Worse than a warpriest Wich already has issues. The eidolons only purpose has been to take up space and do ignoreable damage and allow for a way for the summoner to be hurt.The only purpose of the summoner has been to cast buffs of the fighter and boost the eidolon and reinforce it, while the eidolon offers a way for the summoner to be hurt.
In either situation, the warpriest would perform better and have more things to do.
The only ways I can see to make it less boring is by eliminating the one action upkeep abilities such as boost and roll it into the base class so it can go about being weak without the action investment opening up options for the summoner to do something, anything. And it's still boring, still weak, but it's better.
You have a different definition of Weak than I do.
A summoner isn't weak because they can't do a Barabarians job as well as a Barbarian, or a Rogues job as well as a Rogues, or a Wizards job almost as well as a Wizard.
My Summoner is awesome because my choice of Eidolon will let me be a sufficient, if inferior Cleric while bringing a cool companion to the party who can do all the physical things my waifish Cleric wishes she could do but can't. A Companion who fights almost, but not quite, as well as everyone else.
A companion who can assist her in all her pursuits, and be a guide and friend always.
Two things.
The summoner as it stands, doesn't do anything at good as anyone class currently in the game. And the combination of roles doesn't make up for it.
The summoner also doesn't fight almost as well as anything.
Substantially worse in all aspects save for skill rolls, Wich is a nice ribbon.
Eidolon does 85-90% damage of a Barbarian with martial AC and 10 hp per level. The Warpriest does 75% of the damage of a Barbarian with caster AC and 8 hp per level.
The Summoner is definitely better than the Warpriest if you think only about martial abilities.
His spellcasting abilities are way worse than the Warpriest due to limited spellslots, but they are at the same level of power.
The Summoner is better at skills than the Warpriest.
And the Summoner is way easier to build as he doesn't need 5 attributes.
Right now, the Warpriest is clearly behind the Summoner (which is ok the Warpriest is weak anyway).
I suppose the real issues is that some people have is that it seems that sum of eidiolon and the summoner working is less impactful than a barbarian alone.
If you spending all your actions casting boost and playing as martial your still sub-par martial.
Yeah, but the trick is finding ways to leverage your advantage- which is versatility and a second magical companion body, along with your link like shared hitpoints.
For instance, good luck killing my Angel Summoners Eidolon when the Summoner takes Medic (and maybe blessed one later!) who would be willing to let her Martial Defense level Eidolon tank an encounter while she's standing 100 feet away, feeding hitpoints back to her Eidolon in an action efficient manner. Champion or Champion++ unkillability is a pretty cool trick in some scenarios.
A cleric has objectively worse defensive stats than an Eidolon, and a Champion has to do all that while on the front line, risking AOOs and disruption.
My summoner can buff and heal from safety, with well more than the one battle medicine and maybe three focus the Champion gets.
That's a cool combat trick imo.
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Eidolon does 85-90% damage of a Barbarian with martial AC and 10 hp per level. The Warpriest does 75% of the damage of a Barbarian with caster AC and 8 hp per level.
The Summoner is definitely better than the Warpriest if you think only about martial abilities.
His spellcasting abilities are way worse than the Warpriest due to limited spellslots, but they are at the same level of power.
The Summoner is better at skills than the Warpriest.
And the Summoner is way easier to build as he doesn't need 5 attributes.
Right now, the Warpriest is clearly behind the Summoner (which is ok the Warpriest is weak anyway).
Summoner does less damage than a monk in my experience. And a monk does less then 85 percent of a barbarian. Maybe it's closer so level 1...
I think you are underestimating cha+1 heals a day and all those spell slots you can spend on herorismEidolon does 85-90% damage of a Barbarian with martial AC and 10 hp per level. The Warpriest does 75% of the damage of a Barbarian with caster AC and 8 hp per level.
The Summoner is definitely better than the Warpriest if you think only about martial abilities.
His spellcasting abilities are way worse than the Warpriest due to limited spellslots, but they are at the same level of power.
The Summoner is better at skills than the Warpriest.
And the Summoner is way easier to build as he doesn't need 5 attributes.
Right now, the Warpriest is clearly behind the Summoner (which is ok the Warpriest is weak anyway).
I'm pretty sure that Bidi is considering those a reasonable trade for all the advantages listed.
And that's the point - value is somewhat subjective, but the summoner did get something in exchange for those cleric features, and that something was proficiency and more besides.
I suppose the real issues is that some people have is that it seems that sum of eidiolon and the summoner working is less impactful than a barbarian alone.
If you spending all your actions casting boost and playing as martial your still sub-par martial.
Yeah, but the trick is finding ways to leverage your advantage- which is versatility and a second magical companion body, along with your link like shared hitpoints.
For instance, good luck killing my Angel Summoners Eidolon when the Summoner takes Medic (and maybe blessed one later!) who would be willing to let her Martial Defense level Eidolon tank an encounter while she's standing 100 feet away, feeding hitpoints back to her Eidolon in an action efficient manner. Champion or Champion++ unkillability is a pretty cool trick in some scenarios.
A cleric has objectively worse defensive stats than an Eidolon, and a Champion has to do all that while on the front line, risking AOOs and disruption.
My summoner can buff and heal from safety, with well more than the one battle medicine and maybe three focus the Champion gets.
That's a cool combat trick imo.
Question, what is the summoner healing? It makes no mention of the damage you share manifests on your body. Just that your hp lowers. I wouldn't rule that you can't heal yourself with treat wounds because you have no visible wounds, but I've seen nothing from the summoner that mentions the damage your eidolon takes manifests upon your body. So you have no wounds to treat.
Magical healing I get though.
Eidolon does 85-90% damage of a Barbarian with martial AC and 10 hp per level. The Warpriest does 75% of the damage of a Barbarian with caster AC and 8 hp per level.
The Summoner is definitely better than the Warpriest if you think only about martial abilities.
His spellcasting abilities are way worse than the Warpriest due to limited spellslots, but they are at the same level of power.
The Summoner is better at skills than the Warpriest.
And the Summoner is way easier to build as he doesn't need 5 attributes.
Right now, the Warpriest is clearly behind the Summoner (which is ok the Warpriest is weak anyway).
Warpriest is clearly behind the summoner in straight up melee combat, he is still behind in the support role.*
Just to say this is fine. A class shouldn't have all the things being the best at all of them. Or be the best at one thing and shitty on the rest some classes will be worse than others in all the things they do but have a few things they are better at than the ones that are better than it at the thing.
Summoner does less damage than a monk in my experience. And a monk does less then 85 percent of a barbarian. Maybe it's closer so level 1...
You're right, I made a mistake. It's counting Heroism cast on the Eidolon. It's 70% of the Barbarian damage. My bad.
Eidolon is at 70% of Barbarian, Warpriest at 60-50% (it goes down after level 10 when its proficiency stops increasing).
Question, what is the summoner healing? It makes no mention of the damage you share manifests on your body. Just that your hp lowers. I wouldn't rule that you can't heal yourself with treat wounds because you have no visible wounds, but I've seen nothing from the summoner that mentions the damage your eidolon takes manifests upon your body. So you have no wounds to treat.
Magical healing I get though.
Uh, themselves? Healing spells restore HP, nothing more and nothing less.
Treat wounds is similar. Maybe my battle medicine is downing high potency painkillers and stimulants?
It works, work it out for your characrer how it works for them.
This interpretation youve presented here is supported nowhere at all in the rules or game.
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Question, what is the summoner healing? It makes no mention of the damage you share manifests on your body. Just that your hp lowers. I wouldn't rule that you can't heal yourself with treat wounds because you have no visible wounds, but I've seen nothing from the summoner that mentions the damage your eidolon takes manifests upon your body. So you have no wounds to treat.
Magical healing I get though.
Uh, themselves? Healing spells restore HP, nothing more and nothing less.
This interpretation youve presented here is supported nowhere at all in the rules or game.
So you are cherry picking role play over rules and rules over role play strictly when it benefits you now? Ok.
Regardless my question was simply a question. Not an admonishment to the idea.
Treat wounds imply you are treating wounds yet the summoner from what I can read has no wounds to treat, just a loss of hp.
Easily fixed by a little flavor text but it still sticks out.
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Question, what is the summoner healing? It makes no mention of the damage you share manifests on your body. Just that your hp lowers. I wouldn't rule that you can't heal yourself with treat wounds because you have no visible wounds, but I've seen nothing from the summoner that mentions the damage your eidolon takes manifests upon your body. So you have no wounds to treat.
Magical healing I get though.
Uh, themselves? Healing spells restore HP, nothing more and nothing less.
This interpretation youve presented here is supported nowhere at all in the rules or game.
So you are cherry picking role play over rules and rules over role play strictly when it benefits you now? Ok.
Regardless my question was simply a question. Not an admonishment to the idea.
Treat wounds imply you are treating wounds yet the summoner from what I can read has no wounds to treat, just a loss of hp.
Easily fixed by a little flavor text but it still sticks out.
Shockingly, rules and roleplay are symbiotic and work together.
Generally, my favorite result comes from strong rules that encourage the player to narrate how they work for their character.
I hate rules that strictly dictate how something works, and don't allow personalization and interpretation.
There's a big difference between what happens and how it happens.
Healing works fine on mental damage for example. And I really doubt mental damage can be healed with medicine. Unless the barbarian that is trained on medicine does therapy for you in the middle of a dungeon what actually do sounds amazing. But yeah... The summoner lost hit points in a way it can be healed. If it makes sense.... Yeah no.
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Healing works fine on mental damage for example. And I really doubt mental damage can be healed with medicine.
Things like focus enhancers and stimulants are extremely effective for things like suppressing emotions and distractions in the short term, in some cases.
Therapy comes later. For right now, you just need to suppress the trauma that came from that Phantasmal Killer - not get over it.
Healing works fine on mental damage for example. And I really doubt mental damage can be healed with medicine.
Things like focus enhancers and stimulants are extremely effective for things like suppressing emotions and distractions in the short term, in some cases.
Therapy comes later. For right now, you just need to suppress the trauma that came from that Phantasmal Killer - not get over it.
The barbarian is a super human that can grapple a housesized being with one hand I don't doubt that he can't fix a whole 20 sessions of therapy in one go.
I don't think Mental damage makes much sense anyway... It's a game, it doesn't have to be completely logical.
It was just an interesting observation nothing more.
But I've tested and will continue to do so at various levels and try different strategies.
But as it stands right now summoner is so far into non starter territory that I see no reason to buy the book unless it gets a rework.
Best of luck to you all.
It was just an interesting observation nothing more.
But I've tested and will continue to do so at various levels and try different strategies.
But as it stands right now summoner is so far into non starter territory that I see no reason to buy the book unless it gets a rework.
Best of luck to you all.
Fair enough but do playtest and give your opinion on surveys we are trying to change it but your answers can make a difference having people with different opinions is important even if you disagree with them and what will matter most is the answers in the survey not forum posts.
It was just an interesting observation nothing more.
But I've tested and will continue to do so at various levels and try different strategies.
But as it stands right now summoner is so far into non starter territory that I see no reason to buy the book unless it gets a rework.
Best of luck to you all.
I'd say dont be discouraged by people disagreeing with you. The advantage of discourse is exchange and development of ideas.
Different perspectives will help find a final result that addresses the concerns of more players.
Also, you may find others who approach a concern or issue from a different direction and come up with solutions you dont hate.
Ultimately, there are a lot of things we all agree on. And even if the core rules didn't change at all (and they will), the final book will have a ton more options and items to address at least some of your concerns.
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No, the summoner nor the eidolon existed before they merged. A mortal existed, and an otherworldly entity existed, but not a summoner. Their minds are at best 2 two as someone with multiple personality's are 2, not really, but also not really one either. Apart, you can have tin and copper, but you can't put the bars into a bowl and call it bronze.
Yes, both did.
"An eidolon is a being formed of ephemeral essences— typically mind, life, or spirit—that needs your body and connection to this world to manifest."
"Angel Eidolon - Your eidolon is a celestial messenger, a member of the angelic host with a unique link to you... Though a true angel, your angel eidolon’s link..."
"Devotion Phantom Eidolon Your eidolon is a lost soul,"
It exists independently and separately.
"DUAL STUDIES You and your eidolon have each practiced some skills on your own "
SYNTHESIS ...you become your eidolon, rather than them manifesting as a separate creature.
"Your connection also allows you to communicate with your eidolon telepathically at all times, even when they aren’t manifested." Why would you need to communicate is your minds are one?
Regarding the Eidolon being a separate entity. Since the lore of a class is pretty consistent between two editions (the mechanics can change, but the lore shouldn't really) it's pretty clear that for the first edition Summoner (both versions) the Eidolon is a separate being from the person with class levels in summoner.
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How do other casters work? What’s the expected output of spells? In my mind I was hoping to play a full support character, heals, buffs and being able to spend them on the PARTY. So I could caste Haste or Heroism or some such spell on, for instance, the Barbarian and have my Eidolon provide flanking, cast a heal on the Rogue who just got smacked and be able to do it somewhat consistently. It seems 4 slots just isn’t enough for my concept and it’s basically “buff your eidolon to be slightly worse than everyone else” -_-
Most casters (other than wizards, sorcerers) only get 6 big spells a day anyway - 3 of their big level, 3 of the one below that.
Below that point, spells tend to be used for utility, lesser debuffs (see fear) and that sort of thing with a few notable standouts (slow).
When looked at like that, 2 and 2 isn't THAT bad.
For the build you described, I think a Summoner Bard (for Support) or a Summoner Blessed One/Medic would work fairly well.
Summoner Spellcasting appears to be tuned for "sufficient, but stressed" and supplementing it with an Archetype feels like its in a very good place to me.
Summoner does less damage than a monk in my experience. And a monk does less then 85 percent of a barbarian. Maybe it's closer so level 1...
Yep. Playing with a two handed Magus, a weapon monk and a summoner with a heal-o-matic cleric NPC. So far monk has no issue being then MVP.
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Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Or, put another way, in order to succeed at a save when both eidolon and summon are targets, both have to save. Combine that with the four grades of success and it's also "in order to not critical fail, both creatures can't critically fail."
I'm not sure how you could read this as an asset. The class as written is a disaster.
Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Or, put another way, in order to succeed at a save when both eidolon and summon are targets, both have to save. Combine that with the four grades of success and it's also "in order to not critical fail, both creatures can't critically fail."
I'm not sure how you could read this as an asset. The class as written is a disaster.
Its a small limitation. Parties will get hit by AOEs once every... I don't know, but a far cry from every encounter.
And there's no reason for the Summoner to be anywhere near their eidolon.
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Its a small limitation. Parties will get hit by AOEs once every... I don't know, but a far cry from every encounter.
And there's no reason for the Summoner to be anywhere near their eidolon.
That assumes you have control over the battlefield and placement. Perhaps somewhat true in a dungeon crawl where the party decides marching order, when and how a room is entered, etc. But definitely not true for most encounters I play.
Of course, the summoner's problems aren't just limited to the necessity for both summoner/eidolon to save vs. an AoE to really save; it's the combination of that with all kinds of other bad design decisions.
I played the 1e summoner and the unchained version. Yes, the basic 1e summoner was overpowered if you wanted it to be. Even the unchained version could be too powerful. But was the basic concept fun to play? Absolutely!
Rewind this summoner to the fundamentals. Figure out the style of play that the summoner should have both in and out of combat. Then build from there and don't sacrifice fun for high concept.
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Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
I think you would be fine reversing the eidolon and summoner.
Eidolon: 10 hit points per level.
Summoner: 6 hit points per level.
Summoner stays out of combat range, just like a real caster would do. Summoners power comes from the eidolon, but it should still be a separate creature.
One thing is for certain, I won't buy a book with a summoner-eidolon hybrid. It is an absolutely terrible idea conceptually and mechanically for a summoner that claims the eidolon is a separate independent creature, but isn't at all a separate independent creature mechanically.
4 slot casting a no go for me.
Spellstriking as limited as it is a no go for me.
Eidolon with shared hit point pool and actions not feeling like an independent creature a no go for me.
Big time pass on the Secrets of Magic book with these elements in the game.
None are even a debate for me. They make it in the game and I got nothing to do with this book or any future book with this design idea in it. It will pretty much end my my foray into PF2. I'll start looking for a new game just as I did when 4E made a bunch of terrible design choices.
Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
I think you would be fine reversing the eidolon and summoner.
Eidolon: 10 hit points per level.
Summoner: 6 hit points per level.
Summoner stays out of combat range, just like a real caster would do. Summoners power comes from the eidolon, but it should still be a separate creature.
One thing is for certain, I won't buy a book with a summoner-eidolon hybrid. It is an absolutely terrible idea conceptually and mechanically for a summoner that claims the eidolon is a separate independent creature, but isn't at all a separate independent creature mechanically.
4 slot casting a no go for me.
Spellstriking as limited as it is a no go for me.
Eidolon with shared hit point pool and actions not feeling like an independent creature a no go for me.
Big time pass on the Secrets of Magic book with these elements in the game.
None are even a debate for me. They make it in the game and I got nothing to do with this book or any future book with this design idea in it. It will pretty much end my my foray into PF2. I'll start looking for a...
I really doubt if it goes with split hit points the eidolon hit points will surpass 8+con and more like on the line of 6+con if anything... Not trying to know more than others but paizo seems more conservative than anything with pf2.
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Just seperate the damn hp pool. It's not cute and it's more detrimental than beneficial.Hard disagree. Right now, the common hp pool is an asset.
First, you are more resistant to AoEs. If you have 2 hp pools, AoEs deal twice more damage. With current design, they just do the highest of both damage.
Second, if the Summoner goes down the Eidolon disappears. So, if the Summoner is targetted, he currently has 10+Con hps per level instead of certainly 6+Con hps. As he is the weakling, it's very nice.
Third, the Eidolon is the one taking most of the damage. I prefer it to have 10+Con hp than the ridiculous 7hp per level of Animal Companions. Losing my Eidolon every two fights would be boring.Separate hp pools are only interesting if the Summoner and the Eidolon both takes damage, which should not happen often as they have very different positioning. A small drawback for quite many advantages.
Look I agree that sharing hit points, and the rules that they have come up with are different and have some interesting implications. To my mind it is generally a disadvantage but there are some abilities there that help to mitigate it.
But it just feels so wrong. A summoner should have a separate summoned creature, with separate hitpoints. The actions can be justified as part of the control cost but the hitpoints?!?
A summoned creature is supposed to be a bit more expendable.
Yes an eidolon is expendable in the sense that it can recover from being disintegrated/soul sucked/swallowed by a creature that gets away. But it takes down the summoner as well. While he may be in a safer spot next to the healer, he probably is still in a fairly serious combat and on zero hit points.
Its a flavour objection. Not a balance objection.
Its also going to be quite hard to explain to new players.
Look I agree that sharing hit points, and the rules that they have come up with are different and have some interesting implications. To my mind it is generally a disadvantage but there are some abilities there that help to mitigate it.
But it just feels so wrong. A summoner should have a separate summoned creature, with separate hitpoints. The actions can be justified as part of the control cost but the hitpoints?!?
A summoned creature is supposed to be a bit more expendable.
Yes an eidolon is expendable in the sense that it can recover from being disintegrated/soul sucked/swallowed by a creature that gets away. But it takes down the summoner as well. While he may be in a safer spot next to the healer, he probably is still in a fairly serious combat and on zero hit points.
Its a flavour objection. Not a balance objection.
Its also going to be quite hard to explain to new players.
I think the main problem of doing that is that attacking the Eidolon would be a bad idea for monsters. You basically have a tank that can go down without any impact as you can then switch to full Summoner and keep roughly the same impact in combat. It would be way to good. And if you give a timer to summoning the Eidolon again, you end up with a Summoner without Eidolon for the rest of the day/hour, when the Eidolon can be your main asset.
So, I understand their choice. The Eidolon being expendable is already a big asset. Making it even easier would make things too good for the Summoner. And balancing it by giving really low hp pool to the Eidolon (like 4+Con) would be ridiculous.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Look I agree that sharing hit points, and the rules that they have come up with are different and have some interesting implications. To my mind it is generally a disadvantage but there are some abilities there that help to mitigate it.
But it just feels so wrong. A summoner should have a separate summoned creature, with separate hitpoints. The actions can be justified as part of the control cost but the hitpoints?!?
A summoned creature is supposed to be a bit more expendable.
Yes an eidolon is expendable in the sense that it can recover from being disintegrated/soul sucked/swallowed by a creature that gets away. But it takes down the summoner as well. While he may be in a safer spot next to the healer, he probably is still in a fairly serious combat and on zero hit points.
Its a flavour objection. Not a balance objection.
Its also going to be quite hard to explain to new players.
I think the main problem of doing that is that attacking the Eidolon would be a bad idea for monsters. You basically have a tank that can go down without any impact as you can then switch to full Summoner and keep roughly the same impact in combat. It would be way to good. And if you give a timer to summoning the Eidolon again, you end up with a Summoner without Eidolon for the rest of the day/hour, when the Eidolon can be your main asset.
So, I understand their choice. The Eidolon being expendable is already a big asset. Making it even easier would make things too good for the Summoner. And balancing it by giving really low hp pool to the Eidolon (like 4+Con) would be ridiculous.
You could have the Eidolon return on 1 HP if it comes back with an hour and let the players heal it normally. That part doesn't have to be an issue. Further the Summoner is left with cantrips/poor weapon proficiencies. Is it that much of a problem. The Eidolon could have d8 HP and the Summoner d6 HP- would that be so terrible? The synthesis could just use double the Summoners hitpoints or +4 HP per level, and maybe when they demerge the Summoner could take a half the losses on his hitpoints.
The action economy change was difficult. I just don't see that doing this wierd thing with shared hitpoints is useful or necessary.
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Look I agree that sharing hit points, and the rules that they have come up with are different and have some interesting implications. To my mind it is generally a disadvantage but there are some abilities there that help to mitigate it.
But it just feels so wrong. A summoner should have a separate summoned creature, with separate hitpoints. The actions can be justified as part of the control cost but the hitpoints?!?
A summoned creature is supposed to be a bit more expendable.
Yes an eidolon is expendable in the sense that it can recover from being disintegrated/soul sucked/swallowed by a creature that gets away. But it takes down the summoner as well. While he may be in a safer spot next to the healer, he probably is still in a fairly serious combat and on zero hit points.
Its a flavour objection. Not a balance objection.
Its also going to be quite hard to explain to new players.
I think the main problem of doing that is that attacking the Eidolon would be a bad idea for monsters. You basically have a tank that can go down without any impact as you can then switch to full Summoner and keep roughly the same impact in combat. It would be way to good. And if you give a timer to summoning the Eidolon again, you end up with a Summoner without Eidolon for the rest of the day/hour, when the Eidolon can be your main asset.
So, I understand their choice. The Eidolon being expendable is already a big asset. Making it even easier would make things too good for the Summoner. And balancing it by giving really low hp pool to the Eidolon (like 4+Con) would be ridiculous.
Yeah, for game design, a shared pool of hp is the smart choice. If you need an expendable bag of hp, well, that is what summon X spells are for.
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Eidolons are supposed to be their own creatures.
It is not hard to write dont the HP for the eidolon Eidolon seperately.
People do it for their familiar, for their animal companion, for their shields, etc. What is so hard about writing the HP of the eidolon?
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It honestly just sounds like you are all lazy. Forcing a horrible mechanic because wrting a few numbers is hard.
Its not about how hard it is to track two numbers, its about balance.
Animal Companions and familiars are extremely limited in their capabilities - beyond just the fact that neither is anywhere close to another Martial PC, both simply can't take a full range of player actions.
An Eidolon can. Its got all the options. Its got player character level numbers.
Linking HP pools is a way to ensure that in no way is a Summoner running two effective characters.
Thats important.