Welcome to the Summoner Class Playtest!

[Temperans]

Btw the benefit of the Legs evolution used to be higher carrying capacity and +10 ft movement speed.

The benefit of having arms is being able to grab more stuff.

Both of those would be horrible feat taxes if done via class feats.

[Temperans]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Read the attribute boost class feature.

They should move it to an independent option, every class has this class feature and they all do the same.

But Still, caps on 21 ( +5 ) vs +8 from an animal companion

Which is ignoring the fact that the animal companion is proficient in barely anything, and to a lesser degree than the Eidolon.

The Eidolon is much better at literally everything than the Animal Companion.

Comparing just the ability score modifiers isn't particularly useful.

They can be master at unarmored defense/attack/skills

They have hit points!
They can get debuffs and dont hurt you character.
If they fail at basic reflex area effect and you get a crit success you are not hit.
They can Fly from first level while a Eidolon needs a level 16 feat.

It annoys me so much that Flight is locked behind a level 16 feats when Eidolons could get flight by level 5 with 2 evolution points. Spending 4 points they could get magical flight. And then for every aditional point beyond that they could get +20 fly speed. A level 5 Eidolon could in theory get +110 fly speed.

Heck a PF1 eidolon could get the Avian form and just have flight from level 1.

[KrispyXIV]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Read the attribute boost class feature.

They should move it to an independent option, every class has this class feature and they all do the same.

But Still, caps on 21 ( +5 ) vs +8 from an animal companion

Which is ignoring the fact that the animal companion is proficient in barely anything, and to a lesser degree than the Eidolon.

The Eidolon is much better at literally everything than the Animal Companion.

Comparing just the ability score modifiers isn't particularly useful.

They can be master at ...attack...

Citation Needed. The last advancement I see is Expert, from Specialized Animal Companion. And they also don't get item bonuses...

Samir Sardinha wrote:

They have hit points!
They can get debuffs and dont hurt you character.
If they fail at basic reflex area effect and you get a crit success you are not hit.
They can Fly from first level while a Eidolon needs a level 16 feat.

These are all subjective benefits, which don't compare well IMO to Martial prociencies with full access to items, and access to a laundry list of valid customization options via feats.

Yeah, a bird can fly sooner - but its not smart, inherently limited in the actions it can take, and its way worse at all aspects of combat.

[Samir Sardinha]

Rysky wrote:

… you say you're not asking for extra actions and then explicitly suggest granting them extra actions

Yeah, not my smartest move.

I tought one example of action economy thats kind of extra action. You are right!
Maybe, 4+limbs bonus against Shove/Trip/Forced movement.

The extra hands for multiple equipments as shown in other example is a nice reason too

[Deadmanwalking]

Temperans wrote:

If we remove the limb evolutions (I estimate that is about half of them) we would still have a lot of customizations that the PF2 version lacks:

Energy attacks, magic, see in darkness, shadow form, celestial/fiendish/undead appearance, magical flight and other mobility options, special effects when they hit with an attack, alignment attacks, auras of various kinds, improved attributes and stats, fast healing, high level magical abilities, etc. That doesnt even include the weird evolutions from Unchained.

Okay, let's examine these one by one:

List:

Energy Attacks: You can effectively do this with Weapon Runes. A similar option that stacks seems possible, but might be too obligatory.
See In Darkness: Seems solid, I'm totally on board with this as a Feat.
Celestial/Fiendish/Undead Appearance: This seems to be free in PF2, unless you have a mechanic in mind?
Mobility Options: There are, in fact, Feats for these. Plus the spell option in Evolution Surge, which all Summoners have and can use regularly.
Special Effects on Attack: I'm totally down. What do you have in mind?
Alignment Attacks: The Angel actually has this, ones for other Alignments seem inevitable, and them being restricted to the aligned Outsiders seems on-point thematically.
Auras: This sounds interesting, again, what do you have in mind?
Improved Attribues: This gets really dicey in this edition. All Eidolons can increase stats as they level. Some additional options expanding what stats it's a good call to increase, and an Apex Item equivalent might be valid, but care is needed.
Fast Healing: Yeah, that sounds good, definitely should be a Feat for that.
High Level Magical Abilities: OI'm down. A Feat expanding on Greater Magical Evolution seems solid.

So yeah, a lot of those seem valid as new Class Feats, though others are already around and reflected in various ways.

[Deadmanwalking]

graystone wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fair enough. Those are fairly niche interactions past hand three or four, though, and almost entirely irrelevant a lot of the time.

Not so niche IMO: they "They share your skill proficiencies" so it could be holding multiple toools/kit thereby avoiding actions to draw them all while having reach weapon, a shield and a ranged weapon along with a free hand...

The weapons are pretty much meaningless given their inability to use magic items and their complete lack of Proficiency in any weapon. And I don't think having any number of tool kits out is a particularly large benefit. You can get that by buying multiple bandoliers, after all.

[graystone]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The weapons are pretty much meaningless given their inability to use magic items and their complete lack of Proficiency in any weapon.

It's NOT for traditional hitting of people: the whip increases the distance you can flank from, while bolas can Ranged Trip with the Athletics skill for flying creatures.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

And I don't think having any number of tool kits out is a particularly large benefit. You can get that by buying multiple bandoliers, after all.

Sure you can have multiple bandoliers but you only have 1 pair of hands: your Eidolon has a shield and you have to drop it to use the tools in the bandolier. It's not an issue if you always have your Eidolon hands free but I can see any I run having things there regularly.

[Rysky]

HeshKadesh wrote:

Equally that 'bear' can be a treant, t-rex, mimic, and apart from the mini/token/description, and have no discernable difference outside of that.

Say if one want to create a Final Fantasy Summon Bahamut, I can do. I can do it in a number of ways to represent those abilities. But I can equally just slap a name on it, and call it Mewtwo, or a YugGiOh or a Beyblade or something, and is functionally no different.

No-one is even hyperbolically suggesting that a decade of splat material be rewritten and integrated into the base class: it is in bad faith to essentially strawman that.

There is a midpoint between here, where we currently have this Stat blob represents a Giant Centipede, Treant, Wolf, Earth Elemental, and a Mammoth, and having individual entries for every possible permutation. At the moment, there is the former, and the idea is to move further right along the scale of permutations to have more representative Stat blocks.

I am grateful to have the differentiation between Beast, Dragon, Angel and Phantom already, but would appreciate more 'worky bits' that at least would give some illusion of choice and customization, and 'feeelgood' that comes from your characters abilities actually synergising more than "oh i've got flying fire-breathing bear - or maybe dragon".

What exactly are you asking for, your first example is a little disingenuous since Bahamut is known for mega death breath/laser and Mewtwo is for their super strong psychic abilities. Saying you could make one using one of the Eidolon and then just call it the other is just not true.

Also "reflavoring" is the exact opposite of what we have now. These Eidolons list off what they usually look like or are composed of and then you go from there which makes sense given sheer number of these creatures out there that you can base them on, let alone make up your own.

Which is a LOT better than "Ah I wanted my Eidolon to have a tail and three eyes to look cool but I cant because I don't have enough build points for aesthetics".

[Temperans]

@Deadmanwalking

An eidolon could get magic weapons in PF1, they still had access to energy attacks. In fact its a matter of stacking. You can give the Eidolon and innate energy attack and have the items give a different one.

Auras: Unnatural Aura (animals dont want to get near), Fightful Presence (Demoralize as part of an attack), Sickening (make things sick), Energy Aura (self explanatory), etc.

Other forms of interesting things: Blindsense, Lifesense, no breath, slippery, sticky, immunities, poison, Shadow form (pseudo incorporeal), Shadow blend (concealment on shadows stacks with form), Sacrifice (use HP to heal others), full incorporeal form, swallow whole, etc.

As for the Appearance evolutions. Those 3 evolutions are the basis for the Unchained Eidolon, they gave a lot of relevant resistances and stuff. Not just some weird abilities. They were also very expensive evolutions, which is why I didnt complaint about Unchained having less evolution points.

I think the current Evolution Surge is dumb because its effect are too specific in part because the current Evolutions are all feats. Which leads me to my the opinion that Eidolon Evolutions should not be feats. Right now the situation is just bad because I still think spending a level 16 feat of fight is stupid. It would be a lot better for customization to have evolutions be a separate mechanic and make more generic abilities into feats.

I mean Familiar options are effectively a miniature version of Eidolon Evolutions. Why is the familiar getting it but not the Eidolon?

[manbearscientist]

Temperans wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans, perhaps the original Summoner isn't the best thing to compare to - while not all tables are the same, i never met one that allowed for the Summoner as originally published in 1E in any capacity. It was that loathed - partially due to its unrestricted customizability allowing for it to be "gamed" like nothing else.

You're correct, a 1e summoner could do all those things. That was considered a problem by many players.

He used the original Summoner so why cant I use it to refute his point? Why the double standard?

I wasn't using the 1E summoner. I was comparing to the 1E Playtest.

Quote:

Energy attacks, magic, see in darkness, shadow form, celestial/fiendish/undead appearance, magical flight and other mobility options, special effects when they hit with an attack, alignment attacks, auras of various kinds, improved attributes and stats, fast healing, high level magical abilities, etc. That doesnt even include the weird evolutions from Unchained.

Let's compare.

Energy attacks, yes. Magic, no. See in Darkness, no. Shadow form, no. X appearance, no. Magical flight, yes. Special effects when they hit with an attack, no. Alignment attacks, no. Auras, no. Improved attributes and stats, yes. Fast healing, no. High level magical abilities, no.

That's the 1E Summoner, playtest version. My point here: the 2E summoner has more of these wishlist options than the its 1E equivalent even had. Of course 2E's playtest doesn't have everything, it doesn't have multiple full books to draw from.

And there are loads of things you can do here that you are discounting. Every weapon and armor property rune. Various effects on attacks. Energy ranged attacks, alignment ranged attacks. The other evolutions. Ability boosts. Etc.

[Temperans]

manbearscientist wrote:

Temperans wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans, perhaps the original Summoner isn't the best thing to compare to - while not all tables are the same, i never met one that allowed for the Summoner as originally published in 1E in any capacity. It was that loathed - partially due to its unrestricted customizability allowing for it to be "gamed" like nothing else.

You're correct, a 1e summoner could do all those things. That was considered a problem by many players.

He used the original Summoner so why cant I use it to refute his point? Why the double standard?

I wasn't using the 1E summoner. I was comparing to the 1E Playtest.

Quote:

Energy attacks, magic, see in darkness, shadow form, celestial/fiendish/undead appearance, magical flight and other mobility options, special effects when they hit with an attack, alignment attacks, auras of various kinds, improved attributes and stats, fast healing, high level magical abilities, etc. That doesnt even include the weird evolutions from Unchained.

Let's compare.

Energy attacks, yes. Magic, no. See in Darkness, no. Shadow form, no. X appearance, no. Magical flight, yes. Special effects when they hit with an attack, no. Alignment attacks, no. Auras, no. Improved attributes and stats, yes. Fast healing, no. High level magical abilities, no.

That's the 1E Summoner, playtest version. My point here: the 2E summoner has more of these wishlist options than the its 1E equivalent even had. Of course 2E's playtest doesn't have everything, it doesn't have multiple full books to draw from.

And there are loads of things you can do here that you are discounting. Every weapon and armor property rune. Various effects on attacks. Energy ranged attacks, alignment ranged attacks. The other evolutions. Ability boosts. Etc.

All stuff the PF1e Eidolon had access to. PF2 is not being super innovative by giving the bare minimum PF1e Eidolons had at a worst rate.

If anything the PF1e playtest still had a lot more than the current version since PF1 playtest gave the Eidolon feats, their own skills, and a majority of the APG evolutions were indeed part of the playtest.

Not to mention all those evolutions that I responded to Deadmanwalking were from the PF1 APG, Ultimate Combat, and a few from other books; Evolutions that Paizo has all the access to. You were talking about about the PF1 Playtest Eidolon and I used evolutions just from the Playtest.

[Nitro~Nina]

So, when are we getting the BMX Bandit?

No, really, I really really like this class so far! I like how I'm not punished for wanting my Eidolon to look vaguely humanoid, but I'm also not punished for having it be a dadaist horrorghost. It's very nice that I'm also not pushed into those being exactly the same thing, though I recognise others' concerns about customisation. The shared-actions-and-tandem thing is absolutely genius imo, and I really like how the Eidolon and Summoner work together as a unit; one player in two places rather than a master and a mook... All without giving that player an entire new chassis to wrangle into the turn order.

I'm sure it's not perfect, but that'll come out in the playtest. There are already some holes to be filled but I'm confident that'll happen; the base design is so cool and out-there that I think the only way to balance it is with a lot of collective experience. Which is the point! Yay!

Personally, my mind automatically goes to how this works with other player options and what cool concepts can come up. The first one I thought of, funnily enough, is the Vigilante archetype. If, say, the Vigilante Identity has the summoner being sort of a Robin to an angelic Batman, the Synthesis feat provides a great way to quickchange in an emergency without having to waste time switching identities or risking any exposure. Just find a secluded spot and walk out as Batman; sure, you won't have all the advantages of having Robin there, but you're also in no danger of being found out because you're not actually there. Unless you get knocked out, of course, but that's generally a problem for other reasons (and you should always have at least a mask to foil cursory examination). This idea is campaign-specific, obviously, but I think it's a really fun example of the ability as-is functioning in an important, meaningful moment.

[graystone]

Nitro~Nina wrote:

So, when are we getting the BMX Bandit?

That was literally my first thought when I saw Angel Summoner. ;)

[manbearscientist]

Temperans wrote:

All stuff the PF1e Eidolon had access to. PF2 is not being super innovative by giving the bare minimum PF1e Eidolons had at a worst rate.

If anything the PF1e playtest still had a lot more than the current version since PF1 playtest gave the Eidolon feats, their own skills, and a majority of the APG evolutions were indeed part of the playtest.

Not to mention all those evolutions that I responded to Deadmanwalking were from the PF1 APG, Ultimate Combat, and a few from other books; Evolutions that Paizo has all the access to. You were talking about about the PF1 Playtest Eidolon and I used evolutions just from the Playtest.

Again, the issue is that it isn't a reasonable standard. You are asking for a playtest class with the options of not only a full class, but a full class plus tons of options from books. That's not really useful criticism. In fact, I don't know if you are limiting your criticisms to that. You want innovation as well.

And despite all that, you haven't really put forth a concept that you'd like to see work that isn't represented. I can think of a few that are.

Shinigami: Angel, natural weapon shaped like a scythe. Eventually getting wounding and keen runes.

How To Train Your Dragon: Black dragon. Flying at higher levels (that's even somewhat appropriate, considering). Maybe spells to replicate being a spellcasting dragon.

Ghost of your father, a wizard: Devotion Phantom, Dual studies for Arcana, Ranged Evolution for additional blasting options, magical feats, bulk up intelligence, summoner shield evolution to protect you.

It seems to me that this is relatively robust as far as concept fulfillment goes. I wouldn't mind having the option to take archetypes for the eidolon rather than caster, which would massively expand the mechanical possibilities and make stuff like the Synthesist feat more viable.

[Gaulin]

Wanted to share my thoughts on the summoner before playing it.

I love a lot of the mechanics of the summoner. The shared hp is a really cool idea and a cool way to balance the class. Definitely get the feeling this class is going to be all about positioning, whether it be scouting ahead, enlarging your summon at the right time, switching places with them to avoid stuff, calling your partner to your side, etc. The way that you can sort of flavor your companion without it affecting the way it plays is really cool and important that it stays that way, in my opinion. I also like the way feats can build your companion further to really make it whatever creature you would want.

One thing I am a little concerned about is damage. Maybe I shouldn't be, but from just initially looking at the class it seems pretty lackluster. The summoner themselves isn't going to be doing any damage. Poor proficiencies and very few spell slots make sure of this. And the eidolon has decent proficiencies, but no features that improve their dpr beyond that. I know the summoner can boost it, but that seems paltry when you look at things like rage, sneak attack, legendary proficiency... And more importantly, no way of getting any combat feats. That's the big one for me. Your damage is going to be coming from your eidolon, but they can't do any of the math fixer feats like double slice, flurry of blows, etc. I know a lot of people don't want the eidolon doing as much damage as a martial, but... Why not? With the shared hp, it's definitely more vulnerable than most martials. Summoner casting is pretty lackluster too. And synthesis removes spellcasting all together. If the eidolon can really only do one thing, attack (it doesn't get skill feats or so many other things a martial could), I think it should do it pretty much as well as a martial can.

[Temperans]

That doesn't fulfill the concept that I liked the most about Eidolon and Summoner: Being about to make what ever you want, how you want, with the abilities that you want.

I like the fact I could make a 3 headed dog that could breathed fire, pounce, and fly. A celestial tentacle monsters that could cast spells and frighten animals. A frog that could swallow things, while also having fast healing. A Phoenix, in everything but the reincarnation. A shadow dragon that can constrict enemies while having concealment. Heck, I could make Son Wukong's cloud if I wanted, and still be a legitimate Eidolon.

Unchained Eidolon cut some option from the Chained version, but it still had plenty of things you could do. But the evolutions meant that your generic outsider could become your own.

The current evolutions do not deliver on the level of customization that made me like the Summoner. It might fulfill your concepts, but it definitely does not fulfill mine.

[manbearscientist]

You couldn't do those things in 1E's playtest, and that turned out fine for you. That's my point.

Though I doubt the Eidolon will continue to provide easy access to the Bestiary's list of monster abilities that players rarely get access to. I don't think you want the concept of a 3-headed dog (possible), the ability to get jump on an opponent and make an attack (bestial charge), fire breathing (Ranged Evolution), or flight (Winged Evolution). It sounds like you want 2 extra actions (head attacks) on a base with the best action-economy saving charge variant, and level 1 access to flight and a breathe attack.

So while fire-based Cerberus clone is possible, I doubt they even want to make Summoner into something that can get easy access to things like an Anaconda's greater constrict (for instance). That's a big reason why summoner, well, wasn't really a 1E class. They probably do want the ability to conceptually fulfill those concepts without the mechanical consequences.

[Temperans]

Manbearscientist all the ones I mentioned can be done before level 10. at worse its level 12.

You are telling me I need to wait until level 16 to even get permanent flying when I could do the same at level 5, and have up to 6 other evolutions.

I said Breath Fire not ranged attack, breathing fire is a exclusive to PF2 Draconic Eidolon. Flight is locked to level 16 when I could had gotten it at level 4. Pounce I could had gotten at at level 1.

* Btw that Cerberus type Eidolon I mentioned was perfectly possible with the PF1e Eidolon at level 9.

[cavernshark]

Temperans wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm not at all sure how curating the number of limbs an Eidolon has is good, or fun, or useful in any way.

I'm fine with action economy enhancers or other customizable things (at least in theory), but having them tied to stuff like number of limbs inevitably penalizes concepts that have a different number of those, and that's bad and leads to badness.

If we're to increase mechanical customizability (and I think that's a worthy goal), I strongly feel those mechanical options should not come with any precise or specific morphology or other physical change, as that restricts thematic customizability.

If we remove the limb evolutions (I estimate that is about half of them) we would still have a lot of customizations that the PF2 version lacks:

Energy attacks, magic, see in darkness, shadow form, celestial/fiendish/undead appearance, magical flight and other mobility options, special effects when they hit with an attack, alignment attacks, auras of various kinds, improved attributes and stats, fast healing, high level magical abilities, etc. That doesnt even include the weird evolutions from Unchained.

You know this is a play test right? Like, every published option won't exist in this document. The descriptions of eidolons alone suggest several more base types. There are probably additional feats too.

Maybe go test it out and submit some feedback instead of comparing the test summoner to the 1E version.

[Shisumo]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fast Healing: Yeah, that sounds good, definitely should be a Feat for that.

Are we really okay with giving PCs fast healing? I'm not immediately aware of any such thing in the game at the moment... although I admit I might be missing something.

Temperans wrote:

You are telling me I need to wait until level 16 to even get permanent flying when I could do the same at level 5, and have up to 6 other evolutions.

You might want to look around at the rest of the system for when permaflight options come online before you get too invested in this particular complaint.

Question of my own: can I Battle Medicine myself and my eidolon both on the same day?

[Charlesfire]

Shisumo wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fast Healing: Yeah, that sounds good, definitely should be a Feat for that.

Are we really okay with giving PCs fast healing? I'm not immediately aware of any such thing in the game at the moment... although I admit I might be missing something.

Outside of combat, healing is pretty much free anyway. And if it's too strong, it could get limited use, require action, be fueled by focus points, etc...

[Deadmanwalking]

Shisumo wrote:

Are we really okay with giving PCs fast healing? I'm not immediately aware of any such thing in the game at the moment... although I admit I might be missing something.

At low numbers? Sure. Treat Wounds means everyone can heal up from most things in 10 minutes anyway, and Vivacious Conduit can easily heal 20 HP every ten minutes to boot shortly after you get it (as much as 60 every ten minutes, or 6 per minute, at 20th level).

Fast Healing 1 would be a lot faster than that (10 per minute, 100 in 10 minutes), but in practice, one person healing faster is a dubious advantage and won't change all that much, since it's when everyone is healed that you want to press on.

I'd expect it as a 10th level Feat option or higher if it was unrestricted, mind you, but it seems doable, especially since it only works while you're conscious and capable of concentrating.

Alternatively, you could have something that gives your Eidolon Fast Healing 10 or so for just a few rounds, possibly as a Conduit Spell. That'd definitely be valid as an option.

[Samir Sardinha]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Citation Needed. The last advancement I see is Expert, from Specialized Animal Companion. And they also don't get item bonuses...

Edit: Removed attack from the "master" list

Companion max hit 20 level + 4 prof + 8 attribute = 32
Eidolon max hit 20 level + 6 prof + 5 attribute + item 3 = 34

Eidolon wins by 2

[KrispyXIV]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Citation Needed. The last advancement I see is Expert, from Specialized Animal Companion. And they also don't get item bonuses...

Edit: Removed attack from the "master" list

Companion max hit 20 level + 4 prof + 8 attribute = 32
Eidolon max hit 20 level + 6 prof + 5 attribute + item 3 = 34

Eidolon wins by 2

So, the difference between a Martial character and a non-Martial with a maxed stat, or something like 25% more damage for the Eidolon, at a cost of how many class feats for each?

+2 is not a small difference in PF2E, and the cost to get a Animal Companion to that point is extreme in terms of a expensive resource (Class Feats).

[Deadmanwalking]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Companion max hit 20 level + 4 prof + 8 attribute = 32

Eidolon max hit 20 level + 6 prof + 5 attribute + item 3 = 34

Eidolon wins by 2

The animal companion's damage is also vastly less. An Animal Companion, who manages a +8 to hit, has gone Dex (as indeed, they should, as their AC is terrible otherwise) and is only doing 3d8+3 damage (16.5) or maybe a little more (they can maybe hit Str 18 or 20...max of 18.5 damage). An Eidolon can be doing 4d8+11+3d6 pretty readily (39.5), which is more than double the damage by quite a bit.

Add in the to-hit, and, well, the damage difference is rather absurd.

Though I will note that a truly maximal Animal Companion can manage a +9 in Dex if they get two Specializations (which a Druid or Beastmaster can) for a +33 to hit and only one less to-hit. Of course, that involves quite a lot of Feats...

[Charlesfire]

Comparing the eidolon with an animal companion is foolish. The eidolon is like at least 70% of the power budget of the class.

On another note, do you know if we can keep our eidolon out when sleeping? Manifest Eidolon has the concentrate trait but I don't know if it applies as long as you have your eidolon manifested.

[manbearscientist]

As a counterpoint, checking it as a measuring stick can be useful. It is a good way to make sure it where it is supposed to be.

[Deadmanwalking]

manbearscientist wrote:

As a counterpoint, checking it as a measuring stick can be useful. It is a good way to make sure it where it is supposed to be.

Yeah, it needs to outperform Animal Companions significantly to be viable.

Luckily, it seems to do precisely that, though perhaps not as well as would be ideal in some ways.

[Elfteiroh]

Charlesfire wrote:

Comparing the eidolon with an animal companion is foolish. The eidolon is like at least 70% of the power budget of the class.

On another note, do you know if we can keep our eidolon out when sleeping? Manifest Eidolon has the concentrate trait but I don't know if it applies as long as you have your eidolon manifested.

Concentrate mainly exist to stop you from using it while raging, and to trigger certain things triggering on concentrate actions.

Having to keep focusing into a spell or action, it'll usually use the sustain action.

[Kyrone]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

As a counterpoint, checking it as a measuring stick can be useful. It is a good way to make sure it where it is supposed to be.

Yeah, it needs to outperform Animal Companions significantly to be viable.

Luckily, it seems to do precisely that, though perhaps not as well as would be ideal in some ways.

I made a table to compare.

Here

On the damage the Eidolon caps at 4d8 + 3d6 + 11 damage, the 3d6 is from property runes btw that they can have.

The dex Animal Companion caps at 3d8 + 8 damage.

[Charlesfire]

Elfteiroh wrote:

Charlesfire wrote:

Comparing the eidolon with an animal companion is foolish. The eidolon is like at least 70% of the power budget of the class.

On another note, do you know if we can keep our eidolon out when sleeping? Manifest Eidolon has the concentrate trait but I don't know if it applies as long as you have your eidolon manifested.

Concentrate mainly exist to stop you from using it while raging, and to trigger certain things triggering on concentrate actions.

Having to keep focusing into a spell or action, it'll usually use the sustain action.

So that means the concentrate trait applies only to the actions used to manifest your eidolon. It also means if you have Synthesis, you can sleep while in synthesis and just pretend you're a [insert here what's your eidolon looking like]...

[demon321x2]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Citation Needed. The last advancement I see is Expert, from Specialized Animal Companion. And they also don't get item bonuses...

Edit: Removed attack from the "master" list

Companion max hit 20 level + 4 prof + 8 attribute = 32
Eidolon max hit 20 level + 6 prof + 5 attribute + item 3 = 34

Eidolon wins by 2

+1 to the Eidolon for the Str Apex item. No reason for the Summoner to pick up the charisma one when it gets 4 spells none at top level. It's 1 behind a martial and gets a Summoner to go with it. In terms of raw numbers its exactly where it should be. They also get more AC, damage, and access to magical items compared to an animal companion. The only number fix I could see is expert unarmored at 1st since it's really just a patch to let it keep up with other martials without armor.

I do think the Summoner needs access to more feats to give the Eidolon a more varied attack pattern than attack-attack-attack but numbers wise they are fine.

[The Raven Black]

This thread already helped me realize how much PF2 differs from PF1 from a design standpoint.

PF1 is "you get 2 characters with these descriptions. Here is how we think it should translate mechanically. And finally here is the impact on what you as a player can do to impact the story (for example what you can do each round of combat)."

Whereas PF2 is all centered on what you as a player can do to impact the story. Much easier to balance and to reskin as you want though far from intuitive.

In other words, the Eidolon, just as an Animal Companion, just as spells or feats or features, is merely a way to get specific player actions with such and such impact on the game (for example an attack with such chance to hit and such damage).

That the Eidolon is presented as another creature is an illusion (just like it is for an Animal Companion) . What we should look at is what the whole pair of Summoner + Eidolon allows us to do every round and how it compares to another character of the same level.

[The Raven Black]

Also I like being able to have both the Eidolon and a minion out at the same time (say Animal Companion through Beastmaster Dedication). Unless I am mistaken maybe.

[Deadmanwalking]

demon321x2 wrote:

+1 to the Eidolon for the Str Apex item.

The Eidolon doesn't benefit from your Apex Item's stat bonus. I sort of wish it did, or they got some equivalent bonus at 17th, but they don't right now.

[Keydan]

Can I just pop in and say that as is the Summoner isn't actually all that good at doing the thing its name suggests its supposed to be good at, unless Paizo plans to expand on it later?

Summoner is not better at summoning than any other caster with access to summoning spells. Defiantly worse than a conjuration Wizard.

[vagrant-poet]

I really like this version of the summoner.

From a flavour perspective I'm a fan of the options, and think it willb e really very cool when the options are filled out.

I like the shared action/hp pool, and how that seems to play (Have played a single level one Society Quest as a test so far). Act Together seems to be just right to let you manage two bodies, so far.

Looking forward to testing more, but the initial read-through is quite positive.

[Squiggit]

Not really a fan of Boost and Reinforce Eidolon tbh.

It's effectively the Summoner's equivalent of a damage mechanic, Sneak Attack, Rage, Hunt, etc.

But needing to burn an action every turn to keep it up feels really dissatisfying and sort of almost like it invalidates Act Together.

It being a status bonus instead of typeless (like most other innate combat mechanics) feels kinda bad too since it means that if you have a buffing spellcaster in the party you're losing value.

And then despite not stacking with other buffs and being significantly more action intensive than any similar mechanic, it's also one of the worst ones. +2 is okay at level 1 but the scaling is really unimpressive. +8 at level 19 is just not very inspiring, especially again for something that you need to spend actions on constantly.

[KrispyXIV]

Squiggit wrote:

Not really a fan of Boost and Reinforce Eidolon tbh.

It's effectively the Summoner's equivalent of a damage mechanic, Sneak Attack, Rage, Hunt, etc.

But needing to burn an action every turn to keep it up feels really dissatisfying and sort of almost like it invalidates Act Together.

It being a status bonus instead of typeless (like most other innate combat mechanics) feels kinda bad too since it means that if you have a buffing spellcaster in the party you're losing value.

And then despite not stacking with other buffs and being significantly more action intensive than any similar mechanic, it's also one of the worst ones. +2 is okay at level 1 but the scaling is really unimpressive. +8 at level 19 is just not very inspiring, especially again for something that you need to spend actions on constantly.

Compromise proposal time - what if there was a "Persistent Conduit" focus spell available which caused these to persist beyond the current time, at the expenditure of a focus point, maybe even allowing the two of them to stack for the duration?

Or some other way to manipulate or enhance these conduit spells - like a Focus Spell that manipulated the damage type of the damage of Boost Eidolon, to allow for targeting weaknesses?

[Falgaia]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Not really a fan of Boost and Reinforce Eidolon tbh.

It's effectively the Summoner's equivalent of a damage mechanic, Sneak Attack, Rage, Hunt, etc.

But needing to burn an action every turn to keep it up feels really dissatisfying and sort of almost like it invalidates Act Together.

It being a status bonus instead of typeless (like most other innate combat mechanics) feels kinda bad too since it means that if you have a buffing spellcaster in the party you're losing value.

And then despite not stacking with other buffs and being significantly more action intensive than any similar mechanic, it's also one of the worst ones. +2 is okay at level 1 but the scaling is really unimpressive. +8 at level 19 is just not very inspiring, especially again for something that you need to spend actions on constantly.

Compromise proposal time - what if there was a "Persistent Conduit" focus spell available which caused these to persist beyond the current time, at the expenditure of a focus point, maybe even allowing the two of them to stack for the duration?

Or some other way to manipulate or enhance these conduit spells - like a Focus Spell that manipulated the damage type of the damage of Boost Eidolon, to allow for targeting weaknesses?

Seconded. As is, it feels like Bard's Inspire Courage without any of the feats that develop it out further, so effects like the ones you describe here would be appreciated.

[Cydeth]

I hate the current version of the summoner. The shared hit point pool annoys me, the actions being shared feels bad, and I can't customize the eidolon in any meaningful way.

I had a 6th conjuration wizard I was planning to convert to a summoner to playtest this, but I cannot justify it. It feels worse in every possible way except for hit points.

[Rysky]

Cydeth wrote:

and I can't customize the eidolon in any meaningful way.

How so?

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Cydeth wrote:

and I can't customize the eidolon in any meaningful way.

How so?

I mean, it's pretty obvious when comparing to the 1e summoner.

The Summoner in 1e had evolution points. The unchained summoner had less evolution points but they were still there, allowing for some customization.

The PF2e summoner design team was pretty much like, "Okay. Get this. Let's take the PF1e unchained summoner... strip them of everything that made them cool and unique, give them even less spells to play around with and make the Eidolon on par in strength with an animal companion, but have them share each others life."

I am incredibly surprised and disappointed that Eidolons weren't given a system similar to familiar abilities for their evolution and customization.

ALL the Eidolons will be homogenized. Unique Eidolons are essentially a thing of the past when leaving it as is from a mechanical view.
Even through mechanics, their level 1 Eidolon ability doesn't change anything and they all basically get the same exact stats. No uniqueness between the Eidolon choices, really. It just felt like the same Eidolon copy pasted four times for each discipline and then given a different ability that doesn't make much of a difference.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

ALL the Eidolons will be homogenized. Unique Eidolons are essentially a thing of the past when leaving it as is from a mechanical view.

Yes, all exactly the same except for the fact that each is unique as its being customized and described by a unique human being - chosen from a list of different and unique base forms - and customized through a unique choice of evolution feats across the characters career, and the choice of abilities offered by Evolution Surge. And also, you know, unique skill selections made by every summoner.

All exactly the same, except for all of those ways each one is totally different.

The base forms offered aren't actually reasonably similar, as each offers different signature abilities while leveling that provide SIGNIFICANTLY different benefits and actions...

[Charlesfire]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

ALL the Eidolons will be homogenized. Unique Eidolons are essentially a thing of the past when leaving it as is from a mechanical view.

Yes, all exactly the same except for the fact that each is unique as its being customized and described by a unique human being - chosen from a list of different and unique base forms - and customized through a unique choice of evolution feats across the characters career, and the choice of abilities offered by Evolution Surge. And also, you know, unique skill selections made by every summoner.

All exactly the same, except for all of those ways each one is totally different.

The base forms offered aren't actually reasonably similar, as each offers different signature abilities while leveling that provide SIGNIFICANTLY different benefits and actions...

I kinda agree with you, but I think there could be more variation for the senses, attacks, ability scores and speeds. Why I can't make a ranged eidolon at level 1? Why all eidolons have dark vision? Why the beast eidolon has 12 wis, 10 cha and charisma-based abilities?

I think we should get some variation on these things.

[SuperBidi]

Verzen wrote:

make the Eidolon on par in strength with an animal companion

Eidolon deals twice the damage an Animal Companion does. And it doesn't costs feats. And you can also get an Animal Companion on top of the Eidolon. So, not on par with Strength with an Animal Companion unless you consider a Wizard is on par in Strength with a Barbarian when it comes to smashing things.

Charlesfire wrote:

I kinda agree with you, but I think there could be more variation for the senses, attacks, ability scores and speeds. Why I can't make a ranged eidolon at level 1? Why all eidolons have dark vision? Why the beast eidolon has 12 wis, 10 cha and charisma based abilities?

I think we should get some variation on these things.

If I recall properly, it was the same for the APG playtest. They strip most of the abilities for the playtest as they want to focus on a few mechanics and then add all the funny things.

I'm pretty sure the 4 spells per day mechanic is there just for tests and will be completely overhauled (or even removed) in the final version. The Oracle got the same kind of issues during the playtest and the final version is way closer to something nice.

[KrispyXIV]

Charlesfire wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

ALL the Eidolons will be homogenized. Unique Eidolons are essentially a thing of the past when leaving it as is from a mechanical view.

Yes, all exactly the same except for the fact that each is unique as its being customized and described by a unique human being - chosen from a list of different and unique base forms - and customized through a unique choice of evolution feats across the characters career, and the choice of abilities offered by Evolution Surge. And also, you know, unique skill selections made by every summoner.

All exactly the same, except for all of those ways each one is totally different.

The base forms offered aren't actually reasonably similar, as each offers different signature abilities while leveling that provide SIGNIFICANTLY different benefits and actions...

I kinda agree with you, but I think there could be more variation for the senses, attacks, ability scores and speeds. Why I can't make a ranged eidolon at level 1? Why all eidolons have dark vision? Why the beast eidolon has 12 wis, 10 cha and charisma based abilities?

I think we should get some variation on these things.

I'm 100% positive these will be more diverse, with at least twice as many options, in the actual printed book.

By having all rhe Statlines being mechanically similar in rhe playtest, you create a "control" statline by which to evaluate results.

[An Eldritch Dream Games]

graystone wrote:

Do small summoners regain only 2 actions at the start of their turns when riding a medium Eidolon? Seems odd that you'd be forced to make your pony large with HULKING EVOLUTION to ride it when you can ride a normal pony without issue. And if you need to take the feat to ride it without losing an action, do I NEED to make it Large?

I am also wondering this, +1 on this question. The text seems more like a clarification personally, but if so I think it should be with earlier eidolon info.

[Keydan]

I am sorry if I sound to direct and blunt, but, for me one of the reasons pathfinder is a great game is because it had a great balance of fluff and crunch.

Because every RPG ever has you use your imagination to describe things and effects. But some, like pathfinder, has good balance of fluff and cosmetics having good mechanical feedback. You can imagine whatever you wish. But good, solid mechanics with good solid crunch and custamisability to give you mechanical satisfaction of your choices are not a given.

When you take a greataxe it has statistics of a greataxe, making it not only a greataxe in image but also unique in how it performs as a greataxe. Making you want to use a greataxe and not a maul or a greatsword. Because mechanically, not only is it a cool 2-handed axe, but also has a big die to roll for damage to represent it being a big heavy chopping weapon you swing around recklessly. And that is why I play and run pathfinder. This kind of mechanical feed back to your choices.

[MrTsFloatinghead]

Keydan wrote:

When you take a greataxe it has statistics of a greataxe, making it not only a greataxe in image but also unique in how it performs as a greataxe. Making you want to use a greataxe and not a maul or a greatsword. Because mechanically, not only is it a cool 2-handed axe, but also has a big die to roll for damage to represent it being a big heavy chopping weapon you swing around recklessly. And that is why I play and run pathfinder. This kind of mechanical feed back to your choices.

While your description sounds great for a classic "loud" raging barbarian, what if that's not the character I want to make? What if I want mechanically to use a great axe on a barbarian, but instead of being wild, reckless swings fueled by a roaring fire of fury, I want to play up the idea of "Fear the fury of a quiet man" angle with a John Wick style rage - cold, efficient and merciless. Just as violent and as immune to reason as the most over-the-top Conan clones, but focused and precise in application of that violence. Is that allowed?

Perhaps a better way of posing the question is this: Clearly, I have described a vastly different character concept than what it seems you had in mind when thinking about using a great axe. Does that difference in description require a difference in game mechanics to be "meaningful"?