Good day.
Say an NPC is schizophrenic, via either medical condition, or a master chymist, for example.
The alter ego makes a deal with an outsider, does this bind the original persona to the deal?
Or are they treated like 2 different people, for intents and purposes of a deal/contract?
Since outsiders broker deals with mortals for a long time, I guess they are aware of this potential loophole and have a clause like "soul matters, not personality".
However, I doubt there is a specific rule about it. So, if it makes a better story to have this legal conflict, go for it.
Ignoring the real world, I would think outsider do not care. You make a deal, and they will get what they're owed. Whether it means taking it from the other persona or not.
I imagine for all purposes of "who" an individual is either the individual body or soul (depending on the magic used) would be correctly identified/located and that having more than one identity existing within a person doesn't change that it's just one person/soul.
@ ShadowcatX,
It is not my intent, as you seem to think it is, to turn this into a joke. And where did i even specify it was with a devil/something evil?
I'll rephrase to Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde. (master chymist)
What it comes down to is just this.
Mr Hyde makes a deal with an outsider (which could even be a good outsider, a favor in exchange for a favor), and Dr Jekyll has no clue what the other one did.
Thank you, however, for clarifying the difference. I'm just a human, like you.
Misunderstandings out of the way,...and hoping nobody else comes with pitchforks solely because of my misunderstandings of such a situation...
Claxon, SheepishEidolon, thank you for the answers. That will help.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I had a similar situation in my game, and I side with Claxon on this. In our case, a deal with a devil was made and the PC later fell into the Styx and lost all his memories, including making the deal (and also being married and having kids). The player argued the deal was broken because he could not remember it (as was his marriage vows and obligations to his kids) and after a heated exchange, I held fast to the idea it's a mark on your singular soul, the part of you that is forever, and he could not avoid the bargain by an ignorance issue.
So, if you are talking about a body with multiple souls sharing it, I would say the soul that made the deal is responsible to it. But if you are talking about one soul that has a malady that makes it behave as if different personalities, the one soul carries the responsibility, no excuses.
|
An interesting bit of trivia, in some society a lord "owned" even the souls of his sworn men and there are tales of lords selling them to the devil or equivalent. From what I recall it is mostly Japanese stuff, but there is some nordic tale too.
I agree that the trade is normally with the soul, not the mind, but not "owning" all the soul, as it can be for a person with a multiple personality disorder, can require special provisions in the contract.
I think it would come down to the specifics. The important thing to remember is that these sort of deals typically require that someone willingly enter the contract. So there shouldn't be a situation where the person made the deal without agency.
It's possible that each identity has a distinct soul, that's probably the easiest way to go about it, though it would make resurrection more expensive.
If the soul is shared between the two or more identities, then it would come down to how much of a vote each identity gets regarding the deposition of the soul. I would assume that the decision would need to be unanimous.
There's the possibility that none of the identities can speak for the soul, and that there's an additional soul linked identity that is a silent identity in the group. A subconscious, "yep, I'm all these people." identity. Which also leaves open the possibility for people who don't have a say in the bartering of their own soul due to a silent identity being their only other identity.
There could also be soul chunks. This leaves a problem where the soul that makes the deal is only the fragment of the soul that existed at the time of the contract. So you'd end up with these spiritual amnesiacs who'd lost their bartered soul chunk.
My vote is for each identity having its own soul. Second choice would be the silent identity.
I think it would come down to the specifics. The important thing to remember is that these sort of deals typically require that someone willingly enter the contract. So there shouldn't be a situation where the person made the deal without agency.
It's possible that each identity has a distinct soul, that's probably the easiest way to go about it, though it would make resurrection more expensive.
If the soul is shared between the two or more identities, then it would come down to how much of a vote each identity gets regarding the deposition of the soul. I would assume that the decision would need to be unanimous.
I don't view it working this way at all.
This sort of view basically is saying that this person is actually two people sharing custody over the body.
Reality is that it's one person, one soul, one body that experiences multiple identities that may or may not access/know the memories and information of the other identities.
The way I view it, someone could have a good identity and an evil identity. And if the evil identity makes a deal with a devil to grant them superpowers in exchange for their soul at death...well that will affect the good identity too. Of course the good identity will also get the superpowers, because it's not different people.
I imagine it more like someone being afflicted by a Helm of Opposite alignment an uncontrolled times (but without necessarily being opposite personalities).
There are several possible ways you could run it, but to me having multiple souls actually makes it far more difficult because you have to come up with how that affects the metaphysics of resurrection and reincarnation. If each identity has a soul, then they could conceivably kill the body they share and have someone reincarnate them into a new body. They would now have sole control of their new body....and the other souls move on to the afterlife unless someone does something similar. Nah, I don't like that.
|
|
I think it would come down to the specifics. The important thing to remember is that these sort of deals typically require that someone willingly enter the contract. So there shouldn't be a situation where the person made the deal without agency.
It's possible that each identity has a distinct soul, that's probably the easiest way to go about it, though it would make resurrection more expensive.
If the soul is shared between the two or more identities, then it would come down to how much of a vote each identity gets regarding the deposition of the soul. I would assume that the decision would need to be unanimous.
I don't view it working this way at all.
This sort of view basically is saying that this person is actually two people sharing custody over the body.
Reality is that it's one person, one soul, one body that experiences multiple identities that may or may not access/know the memories and information of the other identities.
The way I view it, someone could have a good identity and an evil identity. And if the evil identity makes a deal with a devil to grant them superpowers in exchange for their soul at death...well that will affect the good identity too. Of course the good identity will also get the superpowers, because it's not different people.
I imagine it more like someone being afflicted by a Helm of Opposite alignment an uncontrolled times (but without necessarily being opposite personalities).
There are several possible ways you could run it, but to me having multiple souls actually makes it far more difficult because you have to come up with how that affects the metaphysics of resurrection and reincarnation. If each identity has a soul, then they could conceivably kill the body they share and have someone reincarnate them into a new body. They would now have sole control of their new body....and the other souls move on to the afterlife unless someone does something similar. Nah, I don't like that.
For more fun, with multiple souls you could use Resurrection on different pieces of the same body, ending with several identical people with different personalities. Good clone, evil clone, neutral clone, chaotic clone, and lawful clone. Maximum mayhem.
I think it will depend on exactly what the bargain is, and how it was worded. I know the OP stated this was not a deal with the devil, but if it were this could potently be used as a loop hole in the contract. If the character has two separate identities that go by separate names and do not answer to the other name it could be used to negate the deal. But that is a double edged sword because then the outsider could do the same.
For example if character made a deal with a devil stating something like “I Billy Bob agree to give <Name of the Devil> 1,000 gold for not killing me”. Now let’s suppose the character is a master chymist with the alternative ID of Jake Jacobson. The devil could take the gold, wait for Billy Bob to turn into Jake Jacobson and kill the character. If the deal had involved being granted a magical ability than the magical ability could be made so it only works while in the Billy Bob identity. Deals with devil’s are notorious for this kind of shenanigans.
If the outsider is aware of the characters multiple identities chances are that will be covered in the bargain.
As to the multiple souls in one body I think the only way that could work is if it is possible to split a soul and both sides survive. Souls do heal over time so if there was something that could cause a soul to be completely split without destroying either side they may develop into separate souls. The only way I could see this happening is by incredibly powerful magic, probably something along the lines of a wish.
Souls are just blobs of quintessence being sorted, there's only the one. Soul goes to wherever the deal sends it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A clever devil or other appropriate outsider would find a way to pressure the other personality into accepting the deal and withhold the benefits of the deal until he does.
And I must admit that I have always found Dr. Jekyll's actions to be morally questionable at best. When he willingly turned himself into Mr. Hyde in order to be able to perform acts that his scruples as Dr. Jekyll would not permit him to do, he forfeited the ability to disown Mr. Hyde's actions.
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a bad example anyways, as Jekyll had his alter ego (mostly) under control. He had to choose to use Hyde.
Those with multiple identities aren't usually in control of which identity is assuming control.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For more fun, with multiple souls you could use Resurrection on different pieces of the same body, ending with several identical people with different personalities. Good clone, evil clone, neutral clone, chaotic clone, and lawful clone. Maximum mayhem.
It could even happen accidentally. If a dead DID dude hid his ID, multiple resurrectors could unwittingly duplicate him bringing back only the portion of the person they knew.
That would raise questions about resurrecting fake people. Like raising a vigilante if you only knew a fake identity. Does it fail like scrying on them? I think it'd be more fun to make resurrection function as false resurrection in that case.
Alright, Claxon is right, this is too complicated. You'd be rebuilding the cosmology entirely. Changing vote to silent identity.
Two points to be addressed here, both in-universe.
First, what does the jurisdiction where the P.C. is say about the validity of a contract in case of force majeure ? Falling in the Lethe is a good example given above. Is the person still responsible for fulfilling contracts established prior to the dive?
Second, how is this person judged in the afterlife? This is in-universe cosmological point that should be looked at. What are the (meta-)physics of your universe?
I would, as a Game Master, decide depending on the permanence of the state of death for the P.C. in question. If they are an ordinary person, like you and me out-of-universe, to which death is permanent, if they are someone for whom suicide would be a valid option say to avoid their children becoming destitutes, then I'd say another personality isn't responsible. If however death can be reversed because the P.C. is at point where such powers are present, then I'd rule another personality is also responsible for the contracts established by the first one.
Waiting for the change means knowing that killing the other kills the first. I wouldn't let that fly. The devil clearly knows they are the same and death is death.
Devils are notorious for upholding the letter of the law, but completely perverting its meaning. Making a deal with a devil is supposed to be an incredibly dangerous idea, because they will find a way to twist things around in their favor every time. It may not be fair, but is how they are.
@Meirril, I was asking whether a character that was a rampaging baby-eater during the first part of her life then took an accidental swim in the Lethe that made her the kindest soul that ever walked [insert here the name of your world in-universe] during the second part of her life would be sent to heaven or to hell.
Does being genuinely unaware of one's own past exonerate one from responsibility regarding said past in the eyes of the powers that be?
I say the answer depends on what the powers that be are. As such, it isn't a question of the Pathfinder ruleset but pertaining to the in-universe cosmogony.
I don't think you need to be aware of your past actions to be judged by them. If you were no longer a person who would take those actions, maybe your judgement would ignore it, but it's possible that you are always a person who would take those actions since you did take them at one point.
The fugue of oblivion ritual forces a memory wiped character to make the same character growth decisions as they re-level, which does seem to support a sort of spiritual predestination. That could create a situation where someone was sent to an evil afterlife destination despite never taking an evil act due to lack of opportunity.
Golarion cosmology has souls drifting to their proper destination, or being debated over in Pharasma's inner court in the bone yard. Most of our edge cases would just end in a debate between interested deities.
Forgetting something does not absolve you of having done it. If that were the case than dying of old age is going to often cause an evil person to escape their judgement. It would also mean people who have a stroke or suffer from other brain injuries also escape their fate. It would mean that only those that die in good health are held accountable for their actions. You could be the most evil person on the planet and have killed and tortured millions of people and all you need to do is die from old age and you don’t face judgement. You never have to even regret your actions they are automatically wiped away because of dementia. Sorry but I don’t see that if Hitler had lived long enough to have die of old age after losing his mind to stroke or dementia not still being held accountable for his crimes.
For what it is worth, here on Earth, most jurisdictions have provisions not to send old decrepit warlords behind bars when they are finally caught and trialled because they are by then too old and decrepit that it would be inhumane.
In the same vein, notable cases have been pleaded as not responsible when the defendant suffered irreversible damage such as a stroke in the brain, destroying higher cognitive centres, between the time of the acts he is accused of and the time of the trial.
What if you had a demon who used magic to charm a player and get them to sign a contract that forfeited their soul? Would they need to honor that contract?
How is this situation similar and different from the one posed by the OP? What can we learn from this comparison?
Is there any sort of memory loss effect that would continue into the afterlife? I would assume that a petitioner facing Pharasma in judgment would have to have full memories at that point in order for any sort of judgment to be appropriate.
Is there any sort of memory loss effect that would continue into the afterlife? I would assume that a petitioner facing Pharasma in judgment would have to have full memories at that point in order for any sort of judgment to be appropriate.
Why? A good or nice deity might care about that sort of thing, but Pharasma is a neutral deity. Her role is to judge and mete out a sentence. It's not even a punishment or a reward from her view point, it's just the place where you soul is supposed to go.
In my mind, Pharasma wouldn't be concerned if your soul remember or not. Besides, petitioners already don't remember everything, their former existences are remembered in fragments.
Petitioners are the souls of mortals brought to the Outer Planes after death in order to experience their ultimate punishment, reward, or fate. A petitioner retains fragments of its memories from life, and its appearance depends not only upon the shape it held in life but also upon the nature of the Outer Plane to which it has come. The stat block detailed above presents a typical petitioner formed from the soul of an average human—it does not include any of the plane-specific abilities or features a petitioner gains, and should be modified as appropriate depending on the plane to which the petitioner is assigned.
Creatures who die, become petitioners, and then return to life retain no memories of the time they spent as petitioners in the afterlife. A petitioner who dies is gone forever—its “life force” has either returned to the Positive Energy Plane or, in some cases, provided the energy to trigger the creation of another outsider. Petitioners who please a deity or another powerful outsider can be granted rewards—the most common such reward manifests as a transformation into a different outsider, such as an archon, azata, demon, or devil, depending upon the petitioner’s alignment. In rare cases, a creature can retain its personality from life all the way through its existence as a petitioner and into its third “life” as an outsider, although such events are rare indeed.
@David knottb242, Pharasma is specific to Golarion. If for example one's campaign is on Oerth, the world of Grewhawk, the arbiter would be a different one. If in the Forgotten Realms, who would judge depends on when in the chronology the campaign is happening^^ Game Masters could have their own universe. I think discussing Golarion and its cosmogony in particular is interesting but outside of the scope of this discussion.
You talk about judgement needing to be appropriate. Appropriateness for the one being judged is inconsequential while the judge is a divine entity.
@GM Trifty, choice is a contested concept^^
To be more constructive though, one cannot abstract oneself from the constraint of the universe one lives in. Our jurisdictions on Earth mostly say that a contract passed under duress is void. This only pushes the question a bit further about what constitutes duress, which loops back to what I've written above as some definitions of it see human existence as perpetually under duress because of our mortality. So, once again, G.M.'s decision about how things go in the universe she runs.
For what it is worth, here on Earth, most jurisdictions have provisions not to send old decrepit warlords behind bars when they are finally caught and trialled because they are by then too old and decrepit that it would be inhumane.
In the same vein, notable cases have been pleaded as not responsible when the defendant suffered irreversible damage such as a stroke in the brain, destroying higher cognitive centres, between the time of the acts he is accused of and the time of the trial.
Do you presume that a god would be concerned with a mortal's dignity? Do you think Phrasma considers the well being and the final deposition of the souls she judges?
Pharasma sends souls on to the path the souls has earned. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless another being steps in, each soul only gets indifference.
This, pharasma isn't concerned about rehabilitation or justice, she wants the quintessence of your soul to go to the right bin undestroyed.
|
|
If some devil shows up to claim a soul and no one else stands in the way, the devil is going to end up with the soul even if the contract isn't valid. That is how Imps familiars work. They snatch their master's soul when he dies without a signed contract. Signed contracts are just a way to justify a devils actions before other concerned outsiders (and to try and involve their superiors in the case the devil is weaker than the other outsiders involved).
As I see it, calling the imp familiar is the same as signing a contract with it. It isn't a forced act (or, at least, not forced by the devil or demon).
What is done when you summon your familiar isn't specified, but it is a long ritual. To acquire an improved familiar you need the ability to acquire a new familiar, and to be at least 3rd level, so you must perform the ritual to get it.If a familiar is dismissed, lost, or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
BTW, I have a doubt that most players remember to pay the gp cost when getting the improved familiar.
|
|
This isn't like signing a contract. If the Imp gets killed first, another devil doesn't show up to take your soul. Well, maybe another devil does show up, but it isn't just because you had an imp familiar...As I see it, calling the imp familiar is the same as signing a contract with it. It isn't a forced act (or, at least, not forced by the devil or demon).
The contracts normally are signed with a specific devil. If the devil dies, something that normally doesn't happen if they are powerful devils, it doesn't pass to oher devils by default.
Actually I think that a deal with a devil would pass on to its superior. Devils are the ultimate lawful evil so they when you make a deal with a devil you are making a deal with hell. Every devil in the chain of command gets his cut from any deals that his underlings make. This is no different than how the mafia works in the real world. If you borrow money from a loan shark and that loan shark gets killed you are not off the hook. Someone will be coming by to collect the money you owe. This is probably going to be a standard part of any contract a devil signs.
Other lawful outsiders may also have similar protections built into their deals, but most other outsiders probably do not. Demons and other chaotic outsiders would be the least likely to have these type of guarantees, but then again they probably also don’t have such formal contracts.
Is there any sort of memory loss effect that would continue into the afterlife? I would assume that a petitioner facing Pharasma in judgment would have to have full memories at that point in order for any sort of judgment to be appropriate.Do you believe the partitioner gets to say anything? Pharasma can read a soul like a book. A glance should be enough to know everything. No amount of excuses or arguments should change her mind.
Mortal souls are important to Outsiders, but it isn't like the souls get treated with dignity and respect. To outsiders, a dead soul is just raw materials that might end up as an Outsider, or as part of a plane, or even consigned to oblivion.
Restoration of memory would provide clarity -- and it should be automatic since most forms of memory loss work on the body rather than the soul.
In the case of a mortal who lost their memory for a substantial period of time and behaved very differently during that time, said mortal's attitude towards their behavior overall would clarify their true alignment -- and while Pharasma may not care about fairness, anything that makes her task of judgment easier would be welcome.
In any case, something that is distinctively missing from Golarion lore is any hint of petitioners protesting that Pharasma's judgment is unfair. If a petitioner appeared before Pharasma and was judged for acts he had no memory of (and contrary to every act he does have memory of), that petitioner would not passively accept his fate.
An important facet of being a petitioner is that it's not really the same being as the physical body which housed the soul. That physical body's death was more like the even which spawned this new being into existence.
I imagine it a lot like Jean Grey becoming Phoenix, except waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy less powerful. In fact, becoming weaker than the original being in almost all cases.
I imagine there are a lot of petitioners from evil beings that resent their judgement, but they are also powerless in comparison to the other outsiders. Further, the souls don't hang around where they can gather together. Once they are judged they are transported to their new home, and the evil outsiders relish the opportunity to hunt/corrupt/eat the new souls.
Yeah, it is important to note that petitioners are little more than food and nutrition. They either are transformed into greater outsiders appropriate to the plane they reside on/their alignment (sometimes being bound together with other petitioners as one can be insufficient) and others are merely reduced to their essence and meld with the planes.
Honestly, the end of existence for mortals is pretty bleak. Even if you're good aligned and get to go spend the rest of your petitioner existence with your god, one day you're likely going to just meld into the background quite literally. Only a lucky few ever get to become greater outsiders, and even then they rarely remember the previous existence as a petitioner, let alone as a mortal being.
Pharasma abhors the creation of undead. Ghosts have come into existence for reasons less serious than an unjust judgment.
But there is one reason that a correct judgment must be important to Pharasma: the fact that she is judging souls at all. Surely it would be easier just to dump all souls in one place, as was the case in numerous ancient real world cosmologies.
Yeah, we don't have a real understanding of why Pharasma does what she does.
We know that Pharasma existed in the previous incarnation of the multiverse, the only survivor from that previous existence. We assume that her actions are what keep this universe from collapsing into itself like the previous one, by using souls to essentially keep the universe running a big recycling scheme. We also know she's training her "daughter" to do the same thing when this universe ends, because Pharasma knows her method isn't perfect. Presumably Pharasma is trying to buy time so that someone can come up with a method of keeping the multiverse continually running so that her daughter wont necessarily face the same fate.
Interesting. For the OP, I'd go along with whatever makes for the best story.
For me playing as Pharasma: I look down at the soul. "hm, you had an agreement that you would stop throwing dice if you one that 10 gp pot. You won and played again he next week. However, you paid off your debt and bought a drink for that old man."
"I'll wash that."
"Now onto the the multitudes of the rest of your existence...."
I would judge one being across it's spectrum.
Pharasma abhors the creation of undead. Ghosts have come into existence for reasons less serious than an unjust judgment.But there is one reason that a correct judgment must be important to Pharasma: the fact that she is judging souls at all. Surely it would be easier just to dump all souls in one place, as was the case in numerous ancient real world cosmologies.
The reason Pharasma is so against undead is because the soul gets corrupted and its a way to avoid judgement. Also quite a few undead consume souls or create more undead.
Worse, imagine an entire society where the citizens spend their entire life working towards becoming 'immortal' via undeath. Mortals escaping in mass from the cycle of life is definitely something Pharasma can't stand.
Pathfinder's cosmology was made to work as a series of interconnected stories. Real world religions have a self-interest in claiming to receive and reward or punish the dead. Not every god handles that sort of thing, but every god has someone in their pantheon that does. Kind of like every religion involves a creation myth. That is just the basics of what man wants out of a religion.
this, ghosts happen before the judgement occurs.
If a familiar is dismissed, lost, or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.BTW, I have a doubt that most players remember to pay the gp cost when getting the improved familiar.The last bit hasn't been true for 9 years. It was FAQ-ed.** spoiler omitted **
The FAQ also gets the replacement cost wrong (just 200 gp instead of 200/level), but I guess they are human too...
For a minute I thought you posted in the wrong thread.
I'm unsure what Diego was trying to prove or state with this argument.