The headline says it all. This isn't a complaint. I'm just curios. I wasn't really around for the playtest so I'm wondering what the design goal was.
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You get 3 actions per round. If you used all 3 to move, you'd go 90 feet per round with a 30 foot movement versus 75 feet with a 25 foot movement.
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It was like that from the start of the playtest. As others note, I suspect it was because, in PF1, you could usually only move 60 feet (barring Runnning, which was almost never done in combat) and adventure designers and GMs were used to that as most characters default maximum, so having it increased to 90 feet would be a big conceptual jump, but 75 was less so. Similarly, on the other end, a charge allowed for 60 feet and an attack, and dropping that to only 40 feet by making base movement 20 feet would also be weirder than having it be 50.
In short, I think it was a compromise number. It works well for that, too, with Elves able to be faster and Dwarves or people in Heavy Armor slower without either suddenly doubling the movement of the other (you can get to 40 feet and double a Dwarf's movement, but it's harder than it would be if they were both 5 feet less).
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Since you get three of them, a single action is worth a bit less than an action in other d20 games. You have to use an action to raise a shield, it usually costs two to cast a spell attacks have diminishing returns, and the standard speed is a bit lower than the usual standard of 30.
You can often still get more total out of the three than you would have in another game. Depending on whether 25 feet is enough, you get more out of either Stride, Stride, Strike or Stride, Strike, Strike than you would have out of Move, Attack--either an extra attack (albeit a weaker one) or 20 feet more of movement.
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I think there's a very practical aspect that nobody's brought up.
Minis and maps have been a standard square size for quite some time. There's only so many standard squares that will fit on most people's tables. So map sizes are kind of fixed, and you don't want characters moving off the table nor do you want everyone's minis to be clustered into the same 4"x4" square in the middle of the table.
Also, having low Speeds is problematic because there are no fractional speeds (e.g., 8'); they're quantized to the nearest 5'. So if a standard movement is 15', a slow monster may be 10', and losing another 5' (e.g., to encumbrance or to a spell) is devastating. That's why the baseline speed should be 4-5 squares.
There was probably some sort of "how far can someone move in 6 seconds" estimation done in the past, but at this point, with so much infrastructure locked in, we're kind of stuck with whatever their answer was, even if their answer was obtained through a ridiculous process.
You get 3 actions per round. If you used all 3 to move, you'd go 90 feet per round with a 30 foot movement versus 75 feet with a 25 foot movement.
Which is less than PF1 taking a full round action to sprint 120ft (barring armor or encumbrance).
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You get 3 actions per round. If you used all 3 to move, you'd go 90 feet per round with a 30 foot movement versus 75 feet with a 25 foot movement.Which is less than PF1 taking a full round action to sprint 120ft (barring armor or encumbrance).
True, but you aren't limited to doing so in a dead straight line and can break it up more easily when it comes to attacking. Increased mobility at the expense of straight-line distance feels fair, especially since it's a rare combat where 120 feet of movement in a straight line as your entire turn is actually useful or fun. If it gets to the point of "Run away!" then you're probably not in encounter mode anymore.
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That said, I think there could be room for a general or Athletics feat that let you Stride four times or maybe even five times as a three-action activity.
Maybe something like:
General Skill
Prerequisite Trained in Athletics
You Stride four times. If you're master in Athletics, instead Stride five times.
As if an elf with a bow wasn't already a master of hit and run! Toss in some monk, Nimble, oof. I'm not on board with needing more speed.
75ft in one round is 8.5 mp/h. Which is above the average male speed, considering near all adventurers will be wearing gear, not wearing running shoes and the like I think this is pretty fair.
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Because close spell range is 30ft. If you had 30ft base movement you could outmanouevre spells and cones far too easy.
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Because close spell range is 30ft. If you had 30ft base movement you could outmanouevre spells and cones far too easy.
This. Screw pf1 comparisons, range is the reason. You need two movements to outrange ranged "close" attacks, and three to outrange "medium" (shortbows).
The three action economy made movement bonuses more powerful, since now that can effectively translate into 3 additions of the same bonus in a single turn.
25ft also is a relatively medium number to increase from, proportionally, 5 ft increase is a "20%" increase in your base movement speed, which is a pretty substantial increase proportionally.
In addition, the movement speed of mounts and creatures gets to really shine when they have larger than these amounts.
25 is just the most optimal number to set the base stride at considering each space is 5ft, 3 actions per turn, and the amount of value they wanted to give movement bonuses.
Now I do wish there were a run action that allowed collectively using all 3 actions to move in a straight line as an activity to boost the movement, because given the times you can expect on professional athletes (most PCs are at this level) 75ft over 6 seconds is pretty much a slow jog, but there's ways to explain that away I suppose.
I wouldn't bother making real world comparisons with how fast you can run. Animals like leopards and other cats only have a speed of 30, which is obviously inaccurate compared to real world ones.
It's a game. Don't think too hard about it.
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It's a game.
Wait what?!?!
Thank goodness you said something.
It's a game.Wait what?!?!
Thank goodness you said something.
Yeah, it's a good thing I did before more people calculate land speed into mph and compare it to real world athletes when... It means absolutely nothing :D So you're welcome and have a great day!
I'm sorry my suggestion for a Run activity sounded like a lot of calculations, but it doesn't take a mathematician to notice that 6 seconds to move 75ft is slow, even for a normal person.
If it makes you feel any better the activity was meant to be for everyone, which means Mr. Leopard would be able to take advantage of it as well.
I dare to say there are others that have already homebrewed the "Run" action into the game, and it was also in PF1/3.5/3.0 so it's not like some huge deal.
But hey, to each their own right.
I'm sorry my suggestion for a Run activity sounded like a lot of calculations, but it doesn't take a mathematician to notice that 6 seconds to move 75ft is slow, even for a normal person.
If it makes you feel any better the activity was meant to be for everyone, which means Mr. Leopard would be able to take advantage of it as well.
I dare to say there are others that have already homebrewed the "Run" action into the game, and it was also in PF1/3.5/3.0 so it's not like some huge deal.
But hey, to each their own right.
I didn't say anything against making a homebrew run action. Just saying that before we start bringing Usain Bolt or whoever into the picture that your tactical in-combat land speed isn't meant to translate into the real world, lol. Just wanted people to keep that in mind when you calculate your speed to be only 8.5 mph, as mentioned above.
I'm not making a stink over it or anything.
My statement was this, just for clarity:
Now I do wish there were a run action that allowed collectively using all 3 actions to move in a straight line as an activity to boost the movement, because given the times you can expect on professional athletes (most PCs are at this level) 75ft over 6 seconds is pretty much a slow jog, but there's ways to explain that away I suppose.
Though I'm sure without the clever guidance from those here I would surely have analyzed the game until I was driven mad by the inaccuracy of modern athletics standards for speed.
If you want to remove all context of what I said and boil it down to "I'm forcing the game to mathematically make sense because I said PCs are like professional athletes and therefore expect them to run the 100 meters in those times", then go ahead, but rest assured that is not what I said.
Sometimes I think people go looking for conflict. Sheesh.
I feel like "run as fast as you can in a straight line with no gear and a straight even path to run on" is something that can be handled outside of encounter mode if we want to do fantasy track and field events.
I feel like "run as fast as you can in a straight line with no gear and a straight even path to run on" is something that can be handled outside of encounter mode if we want to do fantasy track and field events.
I will never use a real-world example again LOL.
What I should have said is "There probably should be a 3 action activity called Run that allows for bonus movement, that is more realistic since 75ft per 6 seconds is slow."
Hustle already doubles your speed, which is effectively what I would have expected for a Run activity.
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I mean, the Golarion Olympics should probably come down to more than "Okay, who are the Elf Monks here?" anyway.
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I feel like "run as fast as you can in a straight line with no gear and a straight even path to run on" is something that can be handled outside of encounter mode if we want to do fantasy track and field events.
But not if you wanted to run as fast as you can in a straight line across a battlefield in a way that suggests you're actually sprinting rather than the tactical movement that the normal move action is designed to represent.
Not sure why everyone is tearing into Midnightoker so much just for suggesting that they'd like to see some kind of sprint/run action.
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I mean, the Golarion Olympics should probably come down to more than "Okay, who are the Elf Monks here?" anyway.
I mean if we're speaking logistically, most professional athletes in the gymnastics, running, sprinting, jumping, etc. probably are monks by definition.
A dedicated unarmored physical perfectionist sounds like a Monk to me, but YMMV.
Shotput/Javelin/etc? Barbarians/Fighters
Golarion Basketball? Swashbuckler/Champion
Ice Skating? Evoker Wizard/Ice Witch/Druid
I would expect the Golarion Olympics to be epic AF. If all they're doing is running 300 feet really fast, I'm pretty sure no one in the Inner Sea is going to care.
ASIDE:
And considering there is a semi-interesting form of the Olympics already in Golarion lore that is related specifically to Monks:
The prowess of their martial artists is renowned across entire continents with the so called Houses of Perfection (the Monastery of Untwisting Iron, the Monastery of Unfolding Wind and the Monastery of Unblinking Flame) the most sought-after monasteries of the Inner Sea region. To qualify for training at one of the Houses of Perfection the potential applicant must race a Djinni that is a swift as the wind, wrestle with a stony Shaitan and out wit an cunning Efreeti.The monks of these monasteries compete in one of the most gruelling challenges on Golarion, the Challenge of Sky and Heaven competing to be named Champions of Sky and Heaven.
The Challenge of Sky and Heaven is a contest held every ten years by Jalmeray’s three Houses of Perfection. It includes tests of knowledge, cunning, speed, martial arts, and skill. Kharswan, the nominal ruler of Jalmeray, also sponsors many additional events, including the Solemn Sky Duel of Masters.
The Challenge is also open to any others who venerate Irori, and the winners receive a steel medallion of Sky and Heaven.
The reigning champions are the Monastery of Untwisting Iron, who have won the last two Challenges.
I mean, the Golarion Olympics should probably come down to more than "Okay, who are the Elf Monks here?" anyway.I mean if we're speaking logistically, most professional athletes in the gymnastics, running, sprinting, jumping, etc. probably are monks by definition.Sure, but the winner of a race between monks shouldn't be decided by "well, that one's a fleet elf,so... duh"
Much like how the chase rules don't just take Speed and declare a winner (at least that better not be the effect of that whole deck of chase cards I've been looking at buying).
Where did I state that a Run action means sub-systems get deleted? I must have mistyped it somewhere... let me see... huh. Looks like I never said that.
Let's look at the old chase rules to see if Movement speed factors in!
For each 10 feet slower than the chase’s baseline speed a character moves, he suffers a cumulative –2 penalty on any check made to navigate obstacles. Likewise, for every 10 feet faster than the baseline speed he moves, he gains a cumulative +2 bonus on these checks.
Would you look at that? Looks like Monks would be statistically the best, but not guaranteed to win.
Seems like everything works out fine after all! False alarm folks.