Samurai as a Class or Archetype

[Kulgore]

I love samurais. I grew up with Ninja movies and D&D Oriental Adventures [sic]. I always liked playing the samurai for the role playing flavour of the character. Honourable warrior with a cool sword and all that.

But game mechanic wise a samurai is just a guy who is good at fighting with a sword, and sometimes also a bow, and sometimes he also learns how to ride a horse.

There's already a class that does all those things, and does them quite effectively: fighter.

I've never found any of the game mechanic features of the samurai, cavalier, paladin, or other character classes/archetypes to be any better than just playing a fighter, giving him a cool sword that he knows how to use really well, and then adding a bunch of samurai related role playing flavour.

[Temperans]

Meanwhile, I quite liked the mechanical implementation of things like Last Stand, where the Samurai would fight through the pain. Iai strike, where the Samurai could do a lot of damage when drawing his sword. Warrior Poet for them flashy moves and feints. etc.

[Dargath]

Yeah I’m into the Samurai for the mobility of anime and game style Robin/Samurai. Nothing feels quite as cool as spamming your E to dash/float through minions then using a whirlwind slash Q + R to kill an enemy as Yasuo in League. He’s one of the most popular all time champions for a reason.

Or the classic Samurai run at each other, drawn their swords and there’s a wide pan shot of each character in profile and one or both fall in a spray of blood. Or like anything from Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X.

Hell even the funky hip hop ruffian style of Mugen from Samurai Champloo, or the gorgeous effects and swordplay from Demon Slayer with the breath system.

Also weirdly almost all of them don’t wear armor. So a high speed/mobility class with a sword and some kind of resource pool like Focus to soak damage or do really sweet mobility and attack tricks.

[Ellias Aubec]

THat almost sounds like a swashbuckler there.

I think that using the knight and drifter classes mentioned here to cover the two aspects of samurai seems like the better route.

[Squiggit]

It sort of sounds like what we're looking for here is actually two sets of character options.

One for the non-mount aspects of the Cavalier and Samurai, orders and challenges and weapon skills, sort of leaning into a non-holy champion sort of niche.

And the other being an un- or lightly armored set of options with an emphasis on mobility and fancy, flashy combat activities.

Ironically, with all the talk about the Samurai having too much baggage to be worth a class, baggage seems to be one of the biggest problems with trying to make a Samurai.

The first concept is basically a champion without that pesky divine baggage. The second you could get close to approximating with a monk or swashbuckler, if not for the inherent baggage limiting those classes' ability to use the kinds of weapons people want a samurai to use.

Sort of amusing given the context of the discussion here.

[Temperans]

Well the Swashbuckler is moving, tumbling, and striking with his sword. And I would agree that Mugen and Yasuo would fall under that.

However, Samurai/Knight does not have to follow the same mechanics as Champion, Fighter, or Swashbuckler. Such a class can very well be done with Master Weapons/Master Armor, and have some unique abilities that sets them out from the Divine Champion, the Weapon Master Fighter, and the hyper-mobile Swashbuckler.

[Snes]

Quote:

Lightning Draw [A][A][A] Feat 6

[Archetype]
Archetype Samurai
Prerequisites Samurai Dedication
Requirements You have a sword that isn't drawn.
-----
You make a lunging attack as you draw your sword in one swift motion. Stride up to your Speed. At any point during this movement, you can Interact to draw a sword and make one melee Strike with it. This Interact action doesn't trigger reactions.

If you're 12th level, you can then Interact to stow that sword as a free action.

[Djinn71]

Snes wrote:

Quote:

Lightning Draw [A][A][A] Feat 6

[Archetype]
Archetype Samurai
Prerequisites Samurai Dedication
Requirements You have a sword that isn't drawn.
-----
You make a lunging attack as you draw your sword in one swift motion. Stride up to your Speed. At any point during this movement, you can Interact to draw a sword and make one melee Strike with it. This Interact action doesn't trigger reactions.

If you're 12th level, you can then Interact to stow that sword as a free action.

That would be a really low power feat from a balance perspective. Compare that to what you can do with a 2nd level feat, Quick Draw, that you get from taking the Duelist dedication:

Action 1: Stride up to enemy.
Action 2: Quick Draw and strike the enemy.
Action 3: Stride away from the enemy.

So Lightning Draw is only not strictly worse if you're fighting something with an AoO that is only triggered on manipulate actions and not movement, and it is always 3 actions rather than Quick Draw which has many uses.

Something that emulates Iaijutsu Strike from 1e might be better. For reference:

Quote:

Iaijutsu Strike (Ex): A sword saint can perform a lightning-quick iaijutsu strike against the target of his challenge to inflict devastating wounds while drawing his sword. After the sword saint has challenged a foe but before he has attacked the target of his challenge, he may choose to use his iaijutsu strike as a full-round action, making an attack roll with his weapon as normal. In order to use this ability, the sword saint’s weapon must be sheathed at the start of his turn. If he successfully hits his opponent with an iaijutsu strike, his attack deals an additional +1d6 points of damage. This bonus damage increases by an additional +1d6 at 3rd level and every two levels thereafter to a maximum of +10d6 damage at 19th level. Any extra damage as a result of a successful iaijutsu strike is not multiplied by a critical hit.

So some extra precision damage, or weapon die damage (balanced for 2e obviously), at the cost of spending three actions to get only one stride + one strike.

[Temperans]

3 actions for 1 stride + 1 strike is literally just bad.

Sudden Strike is 2 actions to move twice your speed and make a Strike. Which you can follow up with an extra attack or another movement.

Sliding Dash would only be fair as Something that is 2 actions for twice speed. But have no limit of when you can attack.

Something like Iaijutsu Strike is very much equivalent to Power Attack + Quick Draw at the same time using only 2 actions. The last action is for either making another attack, or stowing the weapon.

[HumbleGamer]

Snes wrote:

Quote:

Lightning Draw [A][A][A] Feat 6

[Archetype]
Archetype Samurai
Prerequisites Samurai Dedication
Requirements You have a sword that isn't drawn.
-----
You make a lunging attack as you draw your sword in one swift motion. Stride up to your Speed. At any point during this movement, you can Interact to draw a sword and make one melee Strike with it. This Interact action doesn't trigger reactions.

If you're 12th level, you can then Interact to stow that sword as a free action.

That would be really bad compared even to normal moves...

How about something like this?

Snes wrote:

Quote:

Lightning Draw [A][A] Feat 6

[Archetype]
Archetype Samurai
Prerequisites Samurai Dedication, quick draw
Requirements You have a sword that isn't drawn.
-----
You gain +10 feet speed status bonus while performing this move. Stride up to half your speed and quickdraw and perform an attack at any point of the movement, gaining +1 precision damage per weapon dice. Then stride up to half your speed and sheathe your weapon at any point of the movement.

[Ascalaphus]

Isn't this something you can already do with Stride, Quick Draw, Stride?

I mean, I suppose it's cool to sheathe your weapon again, but you'll immediately get people asking "what if I don't want to sheathe my weapon, because a Pathfinder monster isn't going to die in a single hit"

[HumbleGamer]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Isn't this something you can already do with Stride, Quick Draw, Stride?

I mean, I suppose it's cool to sheathe your weapon again, but you'll immediately get people asking "what if I don't want to sheathe my weapon, because a Pathfinder monster isn't going to die in a single hit"

Maybe it was some sort of archetype feat.

Like "if you attack an enemy after have unsheathed your weapon gain +1 circ hit bonus. You can also unsheathe your weapon as a free action which doesn't provide AoO as part of any offensive reaction"

These are just draws, but I was thinking about some tradeoff in terms of actions for a better chance to hit and some extra damage.

Ps: also by having quick draw as baseline archetype feat you won't be penalized for having your weapon sheathed.

[PossibleCabbage]

Iajutsu seems like a thing that's an archetype. You don't just get one feat for dashing, drawing, striking, and sheathing you get a few that make you better at it.

Like there's not just one class that should be able to do this.

[Snes]

My thought process was that I was following the standard 2e feat trick of combining a group of actions into one activity that is one action less (draw weapon + move to enemy + attack + keep moving), but I sort of botched it by only letting you move up to one Speed total. I also completely forgot that the Samurai Dedication would almost certainly come with Quick Draw, compared to which Lightning Draw is slightly better (I'm pretty sure Quick Draw still triggers reactions) and slightly worse (you can Quick Draw any weapon).

Version 0.2

Quote:

Lightning Draw [A][A] Feat 8

[Archetype][Open]
Archetype Samurai
Prerequisites Samurai Dedication
Requirements You have a sword that isn't drawn and at least one hand free.
-----
You make a lunging attack as you draw your sword in one swift motion. Stride up to your Speed. At any point during this movement, you can Interact to draw a sword and make one melee Strike with it. This Interact action doesn't trigger reactions, and the enemy is flat-footed against the Strike.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Squiggit wrote:

It sort of sounds like what we're looking for here is actually two sets of character options.

One for the non-mount aspects of the Cavalier and Samurai, orders and challenges and weapon skills, sort of leaning into a non-holy champion sort of niche.

And the other being an un- or lightly armored set of options with an emphasis on mobility and fancy, flashy combat activities.

Ironically, with all the talk about the Samurai having too much baggage to be worth a class, baggage seems to be one of the biggest problems with trying to make a Samurai.

The first concept is basically a champion without that pesky divine baggage. The second you could get close to approximating with a monk or swashbuckler, if not for the inherent baggage limiting those classes' ability to use the kinds of weapons people want a samurai to use.

Sort of amusing given the context of the discussion here.

Regarding the Monk at least, it's solved super easily, just implement a stance equivalent to monastic archer that adds the weapons and stuff to the list of Monk Weapons and gives some benefit to using them-- the finesse trait is the most obvious for the Katana and Naginata given how people treat the wandering swordsmen style samurai.

[Vidmaster7]

I think the problem is you really need 2 different samurai archtypes one for Heian Era (mounted archer oyori armor samurai) and one for Edo era (wondering samurai more like animes). Although just having a archtype that gives you some stuff then adding it to other classes can portray those types. So for classic samurai figther with mounted and archer etc. for Edo monk or swashbuckler with some quick draw techniques. Then both of them could have the last stand mechanics. IF you make it into a base class then archtype for it could help you portray the other 2 and you just have to think up enough mechancis for the base class... which would be a big overlap with fighter but then it almost always has been. (3.0 samurai was almost identical to figther 3.5 they tried some intimidate mechanics and forced two weapon fighting but still very fighter and so far the PF 1st cavalier samurai has been my favorite.)

[Temperans]

Going for the class at first seems like the best scenario.

If it really is impossible to come up with mechanics that fit, then yeah I guess archetype is the only way to go.

But more classes is never bad.

[Vidmaster7]

Agreed Temperans.

[Lightning Raven]

The only way a Samurai can be justified in becoming an Archetype or class is Paizo decides that they want to make it their own. By that I mean adding more aspects that are particular to the setting, pop culture in general and myths, rather than reproducing a historically accurate warrior.

I think it would be cool to have a robust archetype like the Hellknights, with branching choices. I think it would be cool for the archetype to feature fast-drawing slices with big damage (think of PF1e Sword-Saint with a Iai Jutsu strike, but less janky and better), the ability to fight while blind from the beginning (so that we can make cool blind fighters), magical slashes that cut through air (similar to the Monk's Wild Winds Stance). Basically, making the whole concept a magical and superhuman Samurai that we often see in games, not the ones completely grounded in reality, which are basically Fighters with a very strict moral code.

Another alternative I can think of is that can can easily see a Samurai fitting under the Champion umbrella, does anyone else feels that way? Strong Tenets that guide their behavior, reaction that can perform different feats (Yojimbo style), it also brings back one of their mechanics of challenging the enemy. It also could make a great Neutral Champion, since Samurais put the wills of their Shogun and honor above everything else.

[manbearscientist]

To me, the distinction has to be:

Class - Unique mechanics and flavor

Class archetype or subclass - Unique mechanics or flavor (not both)

Archetype - Slight variations in mechanics, or highly regional flavor

So with the samurai, I think on its own as a direct PF1 conversion it would be closer to an archetype. Its mechanics as a whole aren't new to PF2, and its flavor is arguably very linked to Tian Xia.

To upgrade it to a class archetype or a sublass, I feel like you'd have to really double down on themes. Samurai paladin to double down on oaths and tenets, for instance. This would be a slight break from the class in PF1 of course.

To go all the way to the class level, I think you need to bring in a unique mechanical hook as well as separating out various flavors of subclass. The Hero Point manipulation from above I think qualifies, and gives the class an obvious route to a multiclass archetype. With that in mind, the subclasses could easily incorporate distinct flavors that encompass a lot of different themes:

Mounted Archer

Knight Errant / Wandering Samurai

Sword Saint

Gunslinger?

Basically, a class that incorporates tropes from Westerns, Post-Apocalyptic dramas, and Warring States stuff (Jidaigeki deconstructions a la Rurouni Kenshin).

I could see such a class in a book that focuses on less explored areas in Golarion, namely Numeria and Tian Xia but possibly parts of Garund as well. For instance, adding in guns and the Android ancestry from Numeria and a bunch of Tian Xia stuff. In particular, I could see the more oath-driven Samurai as a Neutral-alignment class archetype for Paladins, Ninjas as a focus-point focused subclass of Rogue, and a bunch of ancestries.

[Dargath]

manbearscientist wrote:

To me, the distinction has to be:

Class - Unique mechanics and flavor

Class archetype or subclass - Unique mechanics or flavor (not both)

Archetype - Slight variations in mechanics, or highly regional flavor

So with the samurai, I think on its own as a direct PF1 conversion it would be closer to an archetype. Its mechanics as a whole aren't new to PF2, and its flavor is arguably very linked to Tian Xia.

To upgrade it to a class archetype or a sublass, I feel like you'd have to really double down on themes. Samurai paladin to double down on oaths and tenets, for instance. This would be a slight break from the class in PF1 of course.

To go all the way to the class level, I think you need to bring in a unique mechanical hook as well as separating out various flavors of subclass. The Hero Point manipulation from above I think qualifies, and gives the class an obvious route to a multiclass archetype. With that in mind, the subclasses could easily incorporate distinct flavors that encompass a lot of different themes:

Mounted Archer

Knight Errant / Wandering Samurai

Sword Saint

Gunslinger?

Basically, a class that incorporates tropes from Westerns, Post-Apocalyptic dramas, and Warring States stuff (Jidaigeki deconstructions a la Rurouni Kenshin).

I could see such a class in a book that focuses on less explored areas in Golarion, namely Numeria and Tian Xia but possibly parts of Garund as well. For instance, adding in guns and the Android ancestry from Numeria and a bunch of Tian Xia stuff. In particular, I could see the more oath-driven Samurai as a Neutral-alignment class archetype for Paladins, Ninjas as a focus-point focused subclass of Rogue, and a bunch of ancestries.

Welp, there it is. That’s the dream right there isn’t it? You could have the historical fighters who fight well on or off a horse with a wide variety of weapon expertise, from swords to bows and several others in heavy armor. You could have the wandering Ronin in “normal clothes” which I guess typically seems to be depicted as “after the sword ban” in the twilight years of the Samurai as an establishment and yeah the Gunslinger and whatever a sword saint is. I looked it up and it just says Kensei...

[AnimatedPaper]

Dargath wrote:

whatever a sword saint is. I looked it up and it just says Kensei...

It's the same term, yes. It is 1 step above "swordmaster" in usage. That's about all I know though; my martial arts training was in Korean styles, not Japanese.

[manbearscientist]

Sword Saint is the literal translation of Kensei, a Japanese honorary title given to a warrior of legendary skill in swordsmanship.

In Pathfinder terms, Sword Saint was a Samurai archetype whose main class feature was the Iaijutsu Strike. The Kensai was a Magus archetype that gave up most proficiencies and some spellcasting to specialize in a single martial or exotic weapon; it also got a class featured called Iaijutsu, though the abilities are mechanically different.

I'd use Kensai except for the Magus connotations. In practice, it has thematic ties to the knight errant but its main thing is dedication to swordplay.

[PossibleCabbage]

Pathfinder 2e has deliberately shied away about making classes for "I have mastered a specific weapon". Part of this is because PF1 had a huge number of feats that had to be tied to specific weapons so if you lost your glaive and had to pick up a glaive-guisarme a bunch of your kit shut off.

But fighters are as good as anybody in any weapon, champions and rangers can pick up anything martial or worse, barbarians and swashbucklers are adept with anything without/with specific traits, and rogues/monks are competent in a range of weapons.

I wonder if quite deliberately "I have mastered the sword, do not ask me to fight with an axe" is archetype territory.

[Temperans]

Which is why I would place a Knight/Samurai class not as a Master Swordman, but as a resolute non magical warrior. With the main mechanic being something that helps you survive longer than other classes.

Which is also why I said:
Samurai as the non-mounted path.
Knight as the mounted path.
And then a 3rd option for the light armor path.

The difference between what I suggest and the Champion is that the champion is a magical class that's all about punishing enemies for not attacking him. Meanwhile, my suggestion is a non-magical class that is all about denying enemy attacks and staying even when they are not getting healed.

[Squiggit]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Pathfinder 2e has deliberately shied away about making classes for "I have mastered a specific weapon".

Have they, though? A fighter's primary combat gimmick relies on you picking a specific type of weapon to focus on.

This:

Quote:

"I have mastered the sword, do not ask me to fight with an axe"

Pretty much describes the first 18 levels of Fighter perfectly.

But it's not just Fighters:
Monks are very distinctly unarmed experts with a few feat options to allow some specific alternatives. Rogues, Swashbucklers and Investigators all have restrictions on their weapon choice via their combat mechanics too. Barbarians are discouraged from using agile weapons and likewise, can't get their combat mechanic to work with many ranged weapons.

If anything, the opposite is true and Pathfinder 2 has double down on intertwining class choice and weapon choice. The only class that doesn't have some direct limitation built into it like that is the Ranger (though even in their case, their selection of combat feats pushes you specifically toward archery or two weapon fighting).

Honestly it's one of my least favorite parts of Pathfinder 2 as a system, that they didn't do what you're suggesting they did in the quoted comment.

[Velisruna]

Temperans wrote:

Which is why I would place a Knight/Samurai class not as a Master Swordman, but as a resolute non magical warrior. With the main mechanic being something that helps you survive longer than other classes.

Which is also why I said:
Samurai as the non-mounted path.
Knight as the mounted path.
And then a 3rd option for the light armor path.

The difference between what I suggest and the Champion is that the champion is a magical class that's all about punishing enemies for not attacking him. Meanwhile, my suggestion is a non-magical class that is all about denying enemy attacks and staying even when they are not getting healed.

Perhaps it could be a class archetype for champion, losing the divine magic abilities in favor of mundane powers. Exchanging the Champion Reaction for Resolve which could mitigate conditions received and keep you standing when you drop to 0 hp. Divine Ally could become what gives you your path of mounted / bow / sword master. Sharing feats could be an issue though so it still might be better as in own class just based off the paladin chassis.