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I'm still desperately trying to figure out what to play in an upcoming campaign. Currently, it looks like we'll have a Sword and Shield Fighter, a Rogue of some kind, a Leaf Druid and an Elemental Bloodline Sorcerer.
I would LOVE to explore the Occult tradition with a caster but I feel Witch and Bard are too focused on their Hexes/Compositions, and none of the Occult Bloodlines seems very appealing.
I figured 2 melee-capable characters might be a bit too few for a 5-man-party and built a Warpriest instead - which ultimately turned out pretty well, I think, but was of course using Divine spells, not Occult ones. So not quite what I was looking for.
TL;DR: Here's the challenge:
Combat-Style: This is primarily a caster! I won't try to tank or hit bosses. Melee capabilities are for lesser enemies and to wrap up fights that are basically won already.
Sources: CRB and APG ONLY! I'd also prefer to include APG-stuff as much as possible, but it's not mandatory.
Ancestry: Anything from Core goes, including Versatile Heritages. From the APG I would only consider a Kobold, so bonus points if you can make it with a Spellscale Kobold who takes both Breath and both Dracomancer Feats at their minimum level.
Class: Main class MUST be an Occult caster. Either of the three options is fine with me as long as the build works. I still think Hexes and Composition draw too many actions from a hybrid character but I'm willing to be proven otherwise.
Feats: Assume I'm willing to spend most or even all of my class feats on Multiclassing.
Ability Scores: Casting Attribute MUST be maxed. This is supposed to be a caster, after all.
So, what can you come up with?
Alright, I've been on a bit of a mounts kick lately, so that's what I'm going with for this. I'll just be building them up to level 5, and I'm going to be brushing over skill feats since they won't be very important to combat, so you can take whatever you want there.
Ancestry and Heritage: Human Aasimar. Out of the core ancestries, humans are the best suited to strength/charisma builds. No particular reason for Aasimar, I just thought it fit the concept well.
Background: I'm going Squire, but anything that gives Str or Cha will work.
Starting stats: 16 12 12 10 10 18
1st Level:
Ancestry feat: General Training to Toughness. Couldn't invest much in Con, so we need the extra HP.
Muse: Warrior Muse. Need the martial weapons and medium armor.
Equipment: Go for Chain Mail (or Breastplate if you can afford it) and a two-handed reach weapon. You'll want to stay out of creatures' reach whenever possible, and you won't have the actions for a shield so you might as well go two handed.
2nd level:
Class feat: Cavalier dedication. Pick your mount of choice (I'll just assume a horse for now) and ride away. This will allow you to cast a composition, strike, and stride twice every turn.
3rd level:
General feat: Incredible Initiative. Going first is good, particularly when you have party-wide buffs. Since you can Stride twice, you'll often be able to approach the enemy to attack and then stride out unharmed.
4th level:
Class feat: Impressive Mount. Your companion becomes mature, and let's you Stride once a round without spending an action, allowing you to incorporate regular spells into your routine more frequently.
5th level:
Stats become 18 14 14 10 10 19.
Ancestry Feat: Could be whatever you want, but I'd go with Clever Improviser.
You're right that composition cantrips can be difficult to make work on a gish, but I feel like this build mitigates that enough to give you a lot of versatility in your actions. I just really like mounts.
Those are some impressive ideas already! Thanks a lot and keep them coming! :)
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@Salamileg: I don't see how the Warrior Muse would give me medium armor? Not sure the muse is worth it for what's about half a general feat, since the bard is already proficient in some martial weapons. But I could just go Maestro for the optimized action economy via Lingering Performance and use a Longspear, I guess. Could get Medium Armor via general feat early and fit in Sentinel Dedication somewhere before level 13, I'm sure.
That being said, outsourcing some actions to a mount sounds good! I'm just not a fan of having a large mount. And it looks like even if I'm playing a small ancestry, there's no way of keeping the mount medium once it becomes mature, unfortunately. Still, I like the idea and will give it some more thoughts. Thanks!
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@HumbleGamer: Monastic Weaponry for the Bo Staff with Flurry sounds fun indeed! But as much as I like the build, I kind of wanted an Occult caster, not an Oracle. Still, a bard should also be able to pull this off. Gettin two attacks with one action definitely helps the action economy.
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@manbearscientist: Marshal is an interesting Archetype but a bit too action-hungry for my liking, especially for a character who already tries to juggle spells and melee. You also list Armor Specialist to be taken at level 16, but that's a Skill feat and can be taken MUCH earlier without breaking anything else.
Ah, my bad, I thought Warrior Muse gave medium armor. It wouldn't help your concept much then, and it would probably be better to just use weapons provided by bard or pick one up via an ancestry feat. As for keeping the mount medium, you could choose a small creature as a mount and not increase it's size via Cavalier, and then increase it to medium once you get it mature (and then going nimble later wouldn't increase its size). It does delay the concept until level 4, though.
Alternatively, if this isn't PFS, you could just ask your GM to let your mount stay medium.
My understanding is that Armor Specialist should not have the skill trait, as it doesn't list a skill requirement and isn't thematically linked to any skill. It may have been intended as a general feat however.
There's skill feats without skill requirements in multiple of the new archetypes. Archeologist, Ritualist, and Medic come to mind, and there's more. I would agree that Armor Specialization seems to be at the higher power level for a skill feat, but not outrageously so. It could require Expert (or at least Trained) Athletics, however.
Ah, my bad, I thought Warrior Muse gave medium armor. It wouldn't help your concept much then, and it would probably be better to just use weapons provided by bard or pick one up via an ancestry feat. As for keeping the mount medium, you could choose a small creature as a mount and not increase it's size via Cavalier, and then increase it to medium once you get it mature (and then going nimble later wouldn't increase its size). It does delay the concept until level 4, though.
Alternatively, if this isn't PFS, you could just ask your GM to let your mount stay medium.
As per the Dedication feat, a Cavalier's companion must have the mount trait and be one size larger than him.
It's not PFS, but in our first talk, I kinda asked the GM to stay as close to the rules as possible, so I don't really like the idea of asking for a change. ^^'
Oh God I waa truely convinced it was occult spellcasting. Shame on me.
No worries. It IS a pretty impressive build nonetheless and the idea with the Bo Staff is definitely something I'll explore further!
Man, I need to read feats more closely. Either way, Beastmaster is a potential alternative to Cavalier, but again takes longer for the concept to come around and doesn't offer as many interesting feats for the style of character.
Man, I need to read feats more closely. Either way, Beastmaster is a potential alternative to Cavalier, but again takes longer for the concept to come around and doesn't offer as many interesting feats for the style of character.
Looks like the beastmaster gets the mature companion who can take an action on its own at level 4, same as the Cavalier. Likewise for all later companion upgrade feats. So if I go with a small ancestry, I could ride a bear or something, which could actually increase my damage a bit with its support benefit.
Cavalier does have a few more feats that help the concept, that's true, but beastmaster does look like a good alternative to avoid having a large mount.
Thanks again for the suggestion!
This is just a draft, so it doesn't go beyond level 5.
I didn't pick out any skill feats or skill increases either.
Class: Sorcerer 5
Race: Human
Background: Any with CHA and/or STR
Initial stats: 16/12/12/10/10/18
Level 1:
Heritage : Versatile Heritage (Toughness)
Human feat: Unconventional Weaponry (Katana)
Bloodline: Aberrant
Level 2:
Sorcerer feat: Sentinel Dedication
Level 3:
General feat: Diehard
Level 4:
Sorcerer feat: Bespell Weapon
Level 5:
Human feat: Adapted Cantrip (Electric Arc)
Stat increases: STR/CON/CHA/WIS
Spell Repertoire:
Cantrips: Shield, Detect Magic, Electric Arc, Light, Daze (Bloodline)
Level 1 (4 slots) : True Strike, Soothe (Signature), Fear, Spider Sting (Bloodline)
Level 2 (4 slots) : Dispel Magic (Signature), Invisibility, Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy (Bloodline)
Level 3 (3 slots) : Haste, Paralyze, Vampiric Touch (Bloodline and Signature)
Equipement:
Main weapon: Katana, two-handed unless there is a need for an empty hand
Armor: Chainmail/Breastplate
Explanation on some choices:
I picked up Katana as the Unconventional Weaponry weapon to have a d10 two-handed weapon that scales with simple proficiency. A Gnome Hooked Hammer would fill the same role, but trades the Deadly d8 trait of the Katana for Trip. Being a Sorcerer allows us to bypass material components entirely, meaning we can cast any spell without a need for an empty hand.
We don't have to increase DEX at 5 because we already meet the DEX cap of Breastplate/Chainmail which we can wear without penalty thanks to our base 16 STR. I went for Wisdom instead for the bump to Perception and Will saves.
Aberrant Bloodline could be swapped out for any of the other occult ones, but is there because of how many touch spells it grants us.
Man, I need to read feats more closely. Either way, Beastmaster is a potential alternative to Cavalier, but again takes longer for the concept to come around and doesn't offer as many interesting feats for the style of character.Looks like the beastmaster gets the mature companion who can take an action on its own at level 4, same as the Cavalier. Likewise for all later companion upgrade feats. So if I go with a small ancestry, I could ride a bear or something, which could actually increase my damage a bit with its support benefit.
Cavalier does have a few more feats that help the concept, that's true, but beastmaster does look like a good alternative to avoid having a large mount.
Thanks again for the suggestion!
Cavalier also seems to require a companion that had the Mount special ability.
The three such companions I could find ate all large, and don't have any cool movement abilities, like a Climb or Swim speed.
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This character is my current favorite for our group's upcoming Age of Ashes AP. He's built as a combat character who can cast spells (as opposed to a spellcaster who picks up some fighting ability). He's also not a typical buff/deduff/support Bard - he's intended to fight and any bard type support is primarily incidental. I have no delusions that he'll be able to truly compete with the martials, but I do think he'll be able to contribute in combat.
Kapenia Dancer (Varisian Scarf Dancer)
Human (Varisian)
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14
Important Ancestry Feats
1 Unconventional Weaponry (Bladed Scarf) It could be argued that this is not a valid weapon for the feat, but I think my GM would allow
9 Multitalented (Swashbuckler Dedication)
Important General Feats:
3 Ancestral Paragon (Natural Ambition: Hymn of Healing)
Skill Feats:
Background: Steady Balance
2 Quick Jump
4 Powerful Leap
6 Titan Wrestler
8 Rapid Mantel
10 Viruosic Performer (Dance)
12 Cat Fall
14 Kip Up
16 Cloud Jump
18 Legendary Performer
SKILLS To Advance: Athletics, Performance, Acrobatics
Class: Maestro Bard (Counter Performance, Lingering Composition, Inspire Courage, Focus 2)
2 Fighter Dedication
3 Hymn of Healing (Focus 3, from Ancestral Paragon General Feat)
4 Ftr - Opportunist
6 Ftr - Lunge
8 Brd - Dirge of Doom
9 Swashbuckler Dedication, Gymnast Style (from Multitalented Ancestry Feat)
10 Brd - Symphony of the Unfettered Heart
12 Ftr - Shatter Defenses (to use with Dirge of Doom)
14 Swb - Unbalancing Finisher
16 Swb - Agile Maneuvers
18 Brd - All in My Head
20 Brd - Perfect Encore
Interestingly, monks can have either divine or occult Spell DCs due to their use of ki spells. While this might not necessarily be what you are aiming for, this does mean that they work really well for archetypes. Your class scaling DC means you can even delay taking a spellcaster archetype feat without too much disadvantage.
So I am going to suggest a mountain stance using monk (no use for dex, so they are flexible with stat spread). You then take your preferred archetype from either bards or witches.
This kind of build has several advantages. First, monks are designed with better attack proficiency and WAY better defense proficiencies than other occult classes. And best of all, flurry means that you can get off your two attacks (which are already better off than a bard with a longsword) in a single action.
That really opens things up. It is frankly easy to have an attack routine that goes Inspire Courage+skill (Feint, intimidate, etc)+flurry, Move+Inspire+flurry or Occult spell+flurry.
@Lightdroplet: A nice build, for sure. Bespell Weapon should be able to trigger from focus spells, if I'm not mistaken, so I could do Tentacular Limbs + two Strikes to ge the benefit twice - at least once per round. The Katana is a nice idea, though I'd be inclined to aim for a d12 weapon so it isn't outclassed by a cantrip too easily.
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@Captain Zoom: A bit too martial for my liking (or rather: not caster-y enough) but I think I might be able to pull something similar off with 18 Charisma if I drop Con to 10 and Str or Dex to 14.
I like the Dirge + Shatter combo.
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@lemeres: An interesting thought, but a mere multiclass archetype doesn't have nearly the spellpower I'm looking for.
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@Marelt Ekiran: I don't think I'd be willing to play a Hobgoblin, but I could maybe be a Versatile Human with Adopted Ancestry to unlock those intimidation feats.
Not a fan of Nimble Dodge, but there are enough other low level Rogue feats I could get instead.
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So many good ideas! Much of the stuff suggested so far was completely off my radar and I actually consider myself to be half-decent ant character building.
Thank you all again!
@Lightdroplet: A nice build, for sure. Bespell Weapon should be able to trigger from focus spells, if I'm not mistaken, so I could do Tentacular Limbs + two Strikes to ge the benefit twice - at least once per round. The Katana is a nice idea, though I'd be inclined to aim for a d12 weapon so it isn't outclassed by a cantrip too easily.
Yes, Bespell Weapon triggering on focus spells is the reading I made of it too.
As for the weapon, I wanted to focus on getting it in the least feat-intensive way, and getting a racial/cultural weapon down to simple is far easier than getting scaling martial proficiency on a Sorcerer, especially since Sentinel locks us out of multiclassing. And sadly (but probably intentionally), the biggest damage dice on such weapons seems to be a d10.
@Marelt Ekiran: Bards can actually get a few good reactions as spells like Blood Vendetta or Shadow Siphon. And Nimble Dodge is more often than not wasted in my experience since you have to use it before you know what the attacker rolls.
Yeah, I forgot about the uncommon thing. I REALLY don't want to play a Hobgoblin for a whole campaign (assuming he lives long enough). I guess I could rely on Intimidation and/or maybe pick up Dirge Sooner. Like Dirge at 6, Sneak Attack at 8 and Dread Striker at 1 or something along those lines.
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@cavernshark: I actually consider the form spells enough to make a caster a decent melee character. But Wild Shape without additional feats seems a bit too limiting since animal shape stops scaling at level 9 and the follow up feats are all too high to pick up via Multiclassing. So while I like your suggestion - especially since it would mean I could go easy on the physical ability scores - I fear it runs ot of steam in the mid levels.
The crossblooded variant is indeed much too late.
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@Lightdroplet: One could go (Half-)Orc and pick up a Greataxe via Weapon Familiarity. Sentinel is rather cheap to get out of using the skill feats at level 4 and 6. So you can already get your next dedication at level 6, like Mauler.
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Now I'm kind of curious how a half-orc Witch with Sentinel and Mauler would work out... Back to the Drawing board, it is.
Thanks, all!
Do You have any alignment restrictions?
Or playing with edicts and tennets was something you wanted to avoid?
I don't play Evil characters. Just can't get into them. Anything else is fine, though I try to avoid CN.
I wouldn't say I want to avoid edicts, but having the occult power of the unknown at your fingertips just to have it bound by edicts seems like a waste.
Not sure this is the best build (I haven't run the numbers yet) but the synergy here is at the very least interesting:
Class: Bard (Maestro)
Ancestry: Human with Versatile Heritage. Take Adopted Ancestry, Hobgoblin.
Background: Warrior
Starting Stats: 18 CHA, 16 STR, 12 CON, 12 WIS, 10 DEX, 10 INT
Later focus on boosting CHA, STR, CON, WIS
Feats (Class feats unless otherwise noted):
Lv1: (Ancestry) Remorseless Lash
Lv2: Martial Artist Dedication
Lv4: Gorilla Stance (Only stance that lets you use armor)
Lv5: (Ancestry) Agonizing Rebuke
Lv6: Inspire Defense (Way too good to pass up)
Lv8: Gorilla Pound
Lv9: (Ancestry) Multitalented - Champion (Paladin)
Lv10: Champion's Reaction
Lv12: ?
Lv14: Diverse Armor Expert (I guess if we're taking champion we might as well pick up expert heavy armor)
For skill feats, take all of the best demoralize related feats.
The rest is up to you.
Basically you'd wanna start most fights with Gorilla Stance + Haste on yourself (Yeah sadly this is not very action economy efficient), and next turn you'd like to find room for a Lingering Inspire Defense, but from that point you're gonna Stride, Pounce, Cast a Spell each turn. You also have the best reaction in the game.
The core of this build also works with sorcerer, I just really like bards (And lingering composition + Inspire Defense are really good, especially for a gish type character spending time in melee)
This is just a rough draft, so it may be a little messy:
Desdemona the Half-Cursed Witch
Class: Witch (Curse Patron)
Ancestry: Human (Half Elf)
Multitalented (9)
-Sorcerer
Class Feats:
Familiar Master (2)
Familiar Conduit (4)
Greater Lesson (6)
-Lesson of Shadow
Mutable Familiar (8)
Basic Blood Potency (10)
-Dangerous Sorcery
Advanced Blood Potency (12)
-Split Shot
Shadow Dancer Dedication (14)
Effortless Concentration (16)
Shadow Jump (18)
Shadow Master (20)
Grab a Spell Slime and fluff that it’s residue from the Plane of Shadows or your Living Shadow.
-Required-
Climber
Darkvision
Tough
-Free-
Independent (4)
Fast Movement (4)
Flier (6)
Familiar Focus (12)
Free Ability (18)
Playstyle
Levels 1-5
Hiding and slinging Attack Spells while hidden. At level 4 can sling them from your Familiar that’s constantly moving and hiding because of Independant and Fast Movement traits.
Levels 6-13
Use Malicious Shadows while hidden, since it uses a Melee Attack Roll. Use save based spells from yourself or using Familiar Conduit; which can eventually fly. (Magic Missile is a good one)
Levels 14-20
Can use Darkness Spell to remain hidden; Effortless Concentration for Malicious Shadows; Shadowdancer for Greater Darkvision; Shadow Jump for repositioning; Shadow Master for resistances.
Keep in mind that only strikes can be done from hidden to hit does flat footed, spells with attack rolls won't hit foes flat footed from hidden.
Not sure how "optimized" for melee you actually want?
Sounds like goal is tactics with 2 other melee allies, i.e. Flanking is main goal.
Actually doing big melee damage/effects might be secondary to that? Resilience would be main thing then,
but assuming you aim to get into melee when able to Flank with 1 or 2 allies it seems likely
your + allies' attacks have good chance of dealing with that ally before they can smash you up too hard.
Some sort of Animal Companion would also allow Flanking without needing you in melee...
You mentioned wanting 3 melees, but I think having a Ranged Archer may also be attractive too.
You could do that with Companion, or just be an Archer who only goes into melee to set up Flank when 2 allies can't themselves?
@Transcendental: As nicholas storm has pointed out, Adopted Ancesty doesn't work for Hobgoblins. But the build should still work without those two ancestry feats. I'm just a bit reluctant to go Gorilla Stance because of it's d8 attack. I'd like my weapon to be a d10 or even d12 so it has a chance of actually doing more than casting a cantrip.
Still something to consider, thank you!
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@Pumpkinhead11: Interesting build but I'm not quite sure how that's a melee character? Seems in fact to be a character who stays away from melee as much as possible.
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@Quandary: Well, as optimized as possible, I guess? Flanking will be a big part of it, of course. I'm also considering more of a glass cannon approach (which will totally get me killed on a 6 HP class, but whatever), mostly because there's no way to have high AC and still use a big weapon. A d10 or ideally a d12 weapon would be nice so my attacks have a chance to outdamage my cantrips. I thought about maybe a Martial Artist in Mountain Stance using True Strike + Grievous Blow, but quickly realized that the blow's damage wouldn't be much better than Telekinetic Projectile. The only d10 stance (dragon) comes without any AC, so it would get me killed even faster, so I try to avoid that.
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My current favorite idea is a half-orc, using Weapon Familiarity to wield a Greataxe. Either Witch (Curse) or Sorcerer (Shadow or Aberrant). Get Sentinel at level 2 for medium armor, pick up Steel Skin and Armor Specialist as skill feats at 4 and 6, so I can also get Mauler Dedication at level 6, giving me up to expert in all two-handed weapons and unlocking some melee feats. Will probably switch to a maul once I get crit specializations at level 11.
While I consider Sorcerer the stronger class, I'm inclined to go Witch, using Evil Eye as an on-demand AC debuff for my melee target and Life Boost to keep me standing a little longer. The party also has one character for each ability score but Intelligence already and I like the shenanigans you can pull off with a familiar.
Could use True Strike + Power Attack for the occasional big damage or True Strike + (Improved) Knockdown for a bit of physical debuffing. The latter is probably better, but comes quite late since my level 12 feat is reserved for Hex Focus.
I'd like my weapon to be a d10 or even d12 so it has a chance of actually doing more than casting a cantrip.
I think you'll that at higher levels most attacks deal more damage than a cantrip:
At level 10 for example, the best single target damage cantrip - telekinetic projectile - deals 5d6+5 damage, which is 22.5 on average.
Assuming you have at least 18 STR by that point, your weapon should deal +4 from STR, 1d6=3.5 from any damaging property rune which leaves us with 15 damage to take care of. Another damaging property rune would take this down to 11.5.
Any d10 or d12 weapon would get close to that with a striking rune. Gorilla stance deals 2d8=9 but also has +3 bonus from intimidation when you use gorilla pound (which is one of the best actions an intimidation gish could ask for, IMO). And we didn't even consider any other feat that increases damage. If hobgoblin was allowed you'd basically also get 2d4=5 extra mental damage when you pound enemies. Sneak attacker in another build would also get another 1d6=3.5 damage. And so on...
Basically, cantrips are very inefficient. They barely deal damage and cost 2 actions to cast.
Keep in mind that only strikes can be done from hidden to hit does flat footed, spells with attack rolls won't hit foes flat footed from hidden.
Are you sure about that? The rule says a creature you’re hidden from is flat-footed to you, it doesn't specify only for strikes so it should apply to any attacks, including spell with attack rolls.
@blave if you go sentinel and human I'd pick general ambition at lvl 1 to grab armor proficiency so sentinel gives you heavy armor proficiency not just medium
@Transcendental: It was a bit of a hyperbole. But as you already noticed, even at level 10 with a +1 Striking Flaming d8 weapon would still deal less damage than Telekinetic Projectile. I'd need to upgrade to +2 and add another damage rune to actually deal similar damage (still lower, though). That's a lot of investment - which I'm willing to take, mind you. But it might not happen at level 10 at all while the Cantrip will automatically scale every two level.
Feats like Power Attack or Improved Knockdown will add more damage of course, but even those are more effective with a larger damage die on the weapon. Not to mention the additional damage each Stirking Rune upgrade will bring.
And I doubt I'll have the actions or the attack bonus to go for an effective second swing very often.
So yeah, a d8 weapon can keep up, but a d12 will simply outshine it significantly. The Gorilla Pound is very nice but only really useful on a Sorceer or Bard. I'm leaning towards witch at the moment, making the intimidation bonus much less appealing. If I do settle for a d8 weapon, Mountain Stance migh also be a better choice.
Still, the damage numbers might be closer than I thought. I'll give it some thought and crunch some numbers. Tahnks again!
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@blave if you go sentinel and human I'd pick general ambition at lvl 1 to grab armor proficiency so sentinel gives you heavy armor proficiency not just medium
That's only true if your class has light armor. Sentinel requires you to be trained in medium armor to make you trained in heavy armor. So among the Occult casters, that's only doable for a Bard or by going Versatile Heritage + General Training. The latter is too much of an investment for my liking, especially since I can't retrain them without losing the heavy armor training.
But I would concider it if I go bard. Thanks!
Keep in mind that only strikes can be done from hidden to hit does flat footed, spells with attack rolls won't hit foes flat footed from hidden.Are you sure about that? The rule says a creature you’re hidden from is flat-footed to you, it doesn't specify only for strikes so it should apply to any attacks, including spell with attack rolls.
From the hide skill - You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise.
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@Pumpkinhead11: Interesting build but I'm not quite sure how that's a melee character? Seems in fact to be a character who stays away from melee as much as possible.
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*looks at thread title again*
Whoops, that’s my bad. I got too focused on making it a Caster-focused build around the Occult list; and completely forgot the Melee part. :p
Back to the drawing board!
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@Gaulin: could you provide a source for that? Maybe it says that somewhere i missed but:
While you’re hidden from a creature, that creature knows the space you’re in but can’t tell precisely where you are. You typically become hidden by using Stealth to Hide. When Seeking a creature using only imprecise senses, it remains hidden, rather than observed. A creature you’re hidden from is flat-footed to you, and it must succeed at a DC 11 flat check when targeting you with an attack, spell, or other effect or it fails affect you. Area effects aren’t subject to this flat check.
A creature might be able to use the Seek action to try to observe you, as described on page 471.
Seems to work just fine so long as you’re targeting AC. Save based spells, or area affects obviously don’t benefit from this.
EDIT: just saw your response to the Hide Skill Action.
Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks. Spell attacks don’t deal any damage beyond what’s listed in the spell description.
It seems spell attacks would be included for the Hide Skill Action just fine.
Would you mind taking the stealth discussion to the rules discussion forum? These things tend to derail topics beyond recognition.
Thank you :)
^ Good idea,
But I don't really get the weapon Strike VS Cantrip comparison ignoring their action difference... Weapon Strike can be freely combined with real high level spell, or with just actions you can get 2 Weapon Strikes (or a True Strike + Weapon Strike). If Cantrip happens to be slightly better than single Weapon strike alone that still doesn't mean it's better. At mid-high levels a "melee caster" should probably be using Spell Storing Runes to deliver weapon strike AND real high level spell (with benefit of weapon +hit rune) in just 2 actions.
Since you have many potential actions from casting, attacking, etc, I think Polearms are good option, slightly less damage on own, but not needing to move means you can cast other spell. (i think focusing TOO MUCH only on melee can detract from other strong areas you bring to table) Also good for Reactions if able to pick those up via Archetype, since 2nd attacks are not your forte with relatively low proficiency and lower attack stat, no-MAP AoO is disproportionately attractive.
But I don't really get the weapon Strike VS Cantrip comparison ignoring their action difference... Weapon Strike can be freely combined with real high level spell, or with just actions you can get 2 Weapon Strikes (or a True Strike + Weapon Strike). If Cantrip happens to be slightly better than single Weapon strike alone that still doesn't mean it's better.
I think I was hung up on an earlier concept: A Mountain Stance Martial Artist caster with Grievous Blow. I compared it too Telekinetic Projectile at level 8. Both two actions, 4d8+4 that cost a feat vs 4d6+4 "for free" at range sounded like a bad investment. Was looking for a single powerful attack since I'm not too confident in my iterative attacks. But yeah, you're right, the flexibility of a simple Strike is pretty good.
At mid-high levels a "melee caster" should probably be using Spell Storing Runes to deliver weapon strike AND real high level spell (with benefit of weapon +hit rune) in just 2 actions.
Not sure about the high level spell part. Spell-Storing is limited to 3rd level spells. A 3rd level Vampiric Touch or Slow is still great for just one action, mind you. If I happen to be hasted, I could even cast a spell on top of that. I have to keep that in mind and my eyes peeled for such a rune.
Since you have many potential actions from casting, attacking, etc, I think Polearms are good option, slightly less damage on own, but not needing to move means you can cast other spell. (i think focusing TOO MUCH only on melee can detract from other strong areas you bring to table) Also good for Reactions if able to pick those up via Archetype, since 2nd attacks are not your forte with relatively low proficiency and lower attack stat, no-MAP AoO is disproportionately attractive.
I doubt I can fit any reactions into the build, as nice as AoO would be. I'm also not sure how often reach will actualy save me an action to move. Never really paid attention to that. It might be worth dropping a die size or two. Using a Longspear early on would also allow me to get another 1st level ancestry feat than Weapon Familiarity. Could then Switch to a Guisarme or Halberd once I get the proficiency.
Thanks for your advice. I'll think about using a reach weapon.
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Ok, for anyone interested, this is the final build I decided on (yeah, "final" ... who am I kidding, right?).
Preface: I decided to go with an orc witch. Was thinking half-orc at first but then realized that all ancestry feats I wanted were from the orc half anyway, so I went all the way. The build isn't as creative as some of the great suggestions here, but I ultimately wanted to keep it slightly more basic.
Here's the build with some annotations.
Ancestry: Orc - as I said in the preface, all ancestry feats are from orc, so there wasn't any reason to go half-orc. The free Darkvision and additional HP are sure to come in handy.
Heritage: Hold-Scarred - even more HP and Diehard to add some much needed resiliency to the character.
Background: Root Worker. The idea is an orc warrior who studies magic instead of distrusting it. And during those studies, he found something - or did something find him? - that granted him his familiar and powers.
Class: Witch, Curse Patron. - No real reason, just the best of the occult patrons.
Stats: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10 - Increases go to Str, Con, Int and Wis
Ancestry feats: 1- Orc Weapon Familiarity > Orc Ferocity, 5- Orc Superstition, 9- Pervasive Superstition, 13- Spell Devourer, 17- Rampaging Ferocity
I'm still not 100% sure if I want to go Greataxe > Maul for my weapon or Longspear > Guisarme/Halberd. If I go with the former, I'll retrain Weapon Familiarity to Ferocity at level 6. I might even mix it up, taking a Greataxe for early game damage, then switch to a Polearm later.
General feats: Don't matter that much. The usual stuff: Toughness, Fleet, Improved Initiative...
Main Skills: Occultism, Arcana, Athletics
Class feats:
2- Sentinel Dedication.
4- Basic Lesson: Life. Also Steel Skin as skill feat.
6- Mauler Dedication. Also Armor Specialist as skill feat to fulfill the 3-feat requirement for the second Dedication.
8- Knockdown
10- Major Lesson: Death
12- Hex Focus
14- Improved Knockdown
16- Effortless Concentration
18- Split Hex
20- Patron's Truth
Armor: I was going to use Mage Armor at level 1, but I noticed that I get the same AC in Chainmail, even untrained, so I'll go with that and use the spell slot for something more desirable.
I think that looks good enough. Still uses more than half of my class feats to improve my caster side, while going to Expert in Medium Armor and all two-handed weapons. Knockdown adds some physical control ability and Improved Knockdown even adds another weapon die of damage. Lesson of Life will keep me standing longer, and Lesson of Death is decent damage and makes the target(s) fatigued, which is a rare debuff. Armor Specialist with Chainmail grants some resistance against critical hits.
Any glaring weaknesses? Other than the fact that it's a melee witch, I mean. :D
Well, if what you want is occult spells, I still think a bard chassis would be better. Your Inspire Courage buffs yourself as well as others, you have d8 hp instead of d6, and you can easily wear plate.*
Without changing much from your build (well, apart from ancestry and class, that is ^^), I'd go:
Class: Bard (Maestro)
Ancestry: Human.
Heritage: Versatile (Armor Proficiency)
Stats: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18 - Increases go to Str, Con, Cha and Wis
Ancestry feats: Whatever floats your boat.
General feats: Likewise, but fleet stands out since you'll be wearing heavy armor.
Main Skills: Occultism, Arcana, Athletics
Class feats:
1 - Lingering Composition
2- Sentinel Dedication.
4- Multifarious Muse (Warrior Muse). Also Steel Skin as skill feat.
6- Mauler Dedication. Also Armor Specialist as skill feat to fulfill the 3-feat requirement for the second Dedication.
8- Courageous Opportunity
10- Knockdown
So at level 1 you can wear a breastplate for 4 more AC than your build (sure, it's only one level, but still ^^).
At level 2, you can wear half-plate and get 1 more AC than your build.
At level 4, you can use any martial weapon you want.
At level 5, you have 18 STR and can upgrade to full plate.
So you gain:
- 2 more HP per level.
- 1 more AC and +3 Reflex Save.
- 1 more to hit/damage most of the time with Inspire Courage (you can switch to Dirge of Doom if you wanna take the feat)
- Attack of opportunity, which in the long run gives you way more damage and options.
- Better Perception
- Better Reflexes
- Better Will
- The unconditional love of your fellow players.
And you lose:
- A little bit of Fortitude between levels 5-9 but both cap at expert anyway
- A familiar that you probably won't use being in the frontline
- Curses that are less useful than Inspire Courage/DoD in the frontline
If you're choosing based on roleplay, then feel free to take the witch. If you're choosing on efficiency, Bard is miles ahead.
Roleplay aside, the reasons for going witch are:
- The party already has a charisma based caster in the oracle. The Rogue and Fighter are also built for skills, as far as I know, so I expect them to cover Charisma skills pretty well. The only thing the party really lacks is an Int-Based class.
- I want that familiar! :D
- The witch is the "new guy in town". I simply want to see how the class feels and performs.
- I need a certain flexibility in spell selection since I want to experiment with a big part of the occult spell list. A prepared caster does that much better than a spontaneous one, even one with Occult Evolution.
- As you said, Bard is the obvious choice for an occult melee character, being the most martial of the bunch. That's why I decided to try something different. The Witch also has more of a caster-y feel to it.
- Curse of Death? Curse of Death!
- To keep Lingering Performance reliable (especially with Dirge), you need to invest into the Perform skill, which I personally deem mostly useless.
- I kind of like the idea of playing an Orc, which is totally outside of my comfort zone and promises great potential and fun.
As for your suggested build:
- I would most likely not start with Dex 12 if I was going for full plate, so I wouldn't have more AC at the low levels.
- A trained Breastplate with Dex 10 is only 2 AC better than an untrained one with Dex 12, so the difference isn't 4 AC at level 1 ;)
- There's not really a reason to go Mauler on a Warrior Muse bard. I'd more likely take Bastion instead, using Sword and Shield - which happens to be our fighter combat style and also that of one of my spare characters (the Warpriest mentioned in the initial post).
I do agree that the bard is the "better" option, even the "optimized" one. But as much a I like number crunching, I wouldn't let optimization get in the way of playing a more fun an unique character. I also still want to play this as a primary caster, and I hope not having the best possible options for melee makes me shy away from it a bit more - if that even makes any sense. :D
So thank you for your optimization! I know it's what I asked for but I don't think it's what I'm looking for right now. :)
Well, I didn't optimize fully since I tried to stay as close to what you did as possible. I wouldn't take Mauler either and I would go sword'n board but you seemed to like it this way so there ^^
Anyway, glad you found a build that you like and I hope you'll have tons of fun with your witch, don't hesitate to come back and tell us how it worked out ;)
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Ancestry: Orc - as I said in the preface, all ancestry feats are from orc, so there wasn't any reason to go half-orc. The free Darkvision and additional HP are sure to come in handy.
I like the build, but...
While I think most GMs would allow an Orc character if you had a good background/origin story, I would point out that there is one possible reason to go Half-Orc... your GM says no "Uncommon" ancestries. As pointed out earlier for the Hobgoblin, the Orc ancestry is Uncommon.
Strangely enough, and I know you would not want to build your character this way, one of my alternate characters resembles yours, except he's an ORC FIGHTER Multi-Class WITCH (Wild Patron/Primal). He uses a Meteor Hammer, wears Hide Armor and has (well will have at 2nd level) a tiny Chihuahua familiar that rides in his backpack making silly comments in Common to everyone around him. "Hey, that steak you have looks very yummy. I am very hungry... maybe you can give me your steak to eat?"
@Blue-frog: Will do. Thanks again :)
@Captain Zoom: I cleared being a full orc with the GM before choosing this ancestry. The problem with Hobgoblin was that it was suggested as an adopted ancestry which doesn't work.
Being a full orc is interesting but it's not like I would lose a whole lot by being a half-orc instead, so the buid works either way.
That chihuahua (thank God my phone knows how to spell that) sounds fun. I'm considering an atypical familiar like a little kitten or something. But I fear that would ruin the "play a real orc" experience, so it's probably going to be a small lizard or something.
That chihuahua (thank God my phone knows how to spell that) sounds fun. I'm considering an atypical familiar like a little kitten or something. But I fear that would ruin the "play a real orc" experience, so it's probably going to be a small lizard or something.
Well, it WOULD be fun to roleplay a remorseless killer with a cute side for his furry mascot, kind of Minsc and Boo in BG2.
"DROP YOUR WEAPONS IF YOU DON'T WANT ME TO CHOP YOUR HEAD OFF AND FEED YOU BIT BY BIT TO MY DOG... who's a good doggie ? Who's a good doggie ? You're a good doggie, yesssss ! *Cough* NOW WHERE WAS I ?"