In second edition, everything is multiplied on a critical, except for bonus damage that only happens at all on a crit. Striking runes, sneak attack, extra dice from feats like power attack, etc. All of it doubles.
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A Crit from a Level 4 Fighter Power Attacking with a Striking Weapon is indeed beautiful to behold, but often ends up being overkill for anything other than the Boss.
It's about sending a message.
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You double everything, except, effects that only happen when you Crit.
So your Flaming rune deals +2d6 Fire on a Crit, but only +1d10 Persistent Fire.
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A Fatal weapon, similarly, adds an extra dice, but only when you Crit.
So a Crit with a Pick would deal 3d10, a Striking Pick would deal 5d10 on a Crit, and a Power Attack Crit with a Flaming Striking Pick would deal 9d10+2d6+1d10.
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Since the Rune is Level 8, you couldn't get the damage I described until Level 8.
Power Attack adds an extra die of weapon damage. If your weapon does 1d10, then Power Attack increases that to 2d10. If your weapon does 2d10 (such as from Striking), then Power Attack increases that to 4d10.
Crit doubles to 8d10. Fatal adds the extra d10, making it 9d10.
I may have been wrong about one thing, though. I believe Power Attack would also increase the d6 from the Flaming Rune.
So an 8th Level Flaming Striking Pick Crit with Power Attack should be 8d10+1d10+4d6+1d10.
You double everything, except, effects that only happen when you Crit.
So your Flaming rune deals +2d6 Fire on a Crit, but only +1d10 Persistent Fire.
This is how the rules read. Doubling and Halving Damage linkified for health.
Power attack definitely adds the number of dice stated, not multiples of whatever the weapon normally rolls.
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I've never seen anyone run it different. Good thing it's explicitly allowed*:
Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune.
The damage die of a Pick is 1d6. Power Attack increases this to 2d6.
The damage die of a Striking Pick is 2d6. Power Attack increases this to 4d6.
Which of course, makes sense, because the idea behind Power Attack is that it effectively deals double the damage of a single Strike.
It'd be pretty useless otherwise.
I've never seen anyone run it different. Good thing it's explicitly allowed*:
Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune.The damage die of a Pick is 1d6. Power Attack increases this to 2d6.
The damage die of a Striking Pick is 2d6. Power Attack increases this to 4d6.
Which of course, makes sense, because the idea behind Power Attack is that it effectively deals double the damage of a single Strike.
It'd be pretty useless otherwise.
Power attack is not an effect based on the number of weapon dice. Just an effect that adds weapon dice.
Pick is 1d6. Power attack increases it to 2d6.
Striking pick is 2d6. Power attack increases it to 3d6.
If it worked the way you're saying, high level power attack would quadruple weapon damage and completely overshadow almost all other attack feats.
For that matter, a 3 action One Inch Punch at level 18, with Major striking runes involved would get you 28 dice of damage at your full attack bonus. Do you actually think that's what that ability is supposed to do?
I've never seen anyone run it different. Good thing it's explicitly allowed*:
Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune.The damage die of a Pick is 1d6. Power Attack increases this to 2d6.
The damage die of a Striking Pick is 2d6. Power Attack increases this to 4d6.
Which of course, makes sense, because the idea behind Power Attack is that it effectively deals double the damage of a single Strike.
It'd be pretty useless otherwise.
So by your interpretation of the rules, something like a greater striking falchion (3d10) would only deal +1 damage with it's Forceful Trait on the second attack, and +2 on all subsequent attacks (because I only have one damage die, 3d10)?
Or if I have a greater striking pick (3d6) and I crit (Fatal d10) and I have the critical specialisation for it (+2 damage per weapon damage die), I only add +4 damage (1 for the 3d10, and another for the Fatal d10)?
I don't think that's the case. On Page 278, under damage rolls, it reads:
"Magic weapons with striking, greater striking, or major striking runes (page 581) add one or more weapon damage dice to your damage roll."
So striking runes add weapon damage dice to your roll. We have further evidence of this with things like shillelagh or magic weapon which say:
"The target becomes a +1 striking weapon, gaining a +1 item bonus to attack rolls and increasing the number of weapon damage dice to two."
So a striking weapon has 2 damage dice, and every other step adds another damage die. The same with Power Attack. Power Attack adds one die of weapon damage, and then 2, and then 3.
So a Power Attacking striking pick that crits (which turns all d6s into d10s) will deal:
1d10 base
1d10 striking
1d10 power attack
+ any bonuses
You duble all of that (by whichever method you prefer), and then add a d10 from the deadly trait.
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Good points. I feel the Level 18 ability doesn't make much of a case, because high-level abilities shouldn't be used as examples for entry-level abilities, but the Forceful Trait requiring Power Attack to deal more damage doesn't make much sense.
Magic Weapon and Shillelagh don't contribute to the discussion. Both enhance weapons that only have one die to begin with. A Power Attack with a Shillelagh against an undead creature would deal 6dX.
The Critical Specialization point also makes sense, though. So, as I see it now, the rules elements are simply contradictory. Which seems odd to me, because I've come across many players using Power Attack, and my Fighter playing under a couple different GMs, and nobody bats an eye at it.
So either it's widespread misunderstanding, or there's another rules element out there that supports Power Attack multiplying all of a weapon's dice, and it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Here's the obvious answer as to why it's only 1dX scaling to 3dX of damage on Power Attack: because as it gets higher, it would become utterly busted under this interpretation.
At level 18, you would do 4x the base damage by spending a second action, making this basically a required feat for everyone...as a level 1 fighter feat. Let's say you have a +3 major striking greatsword. A normal swing would do 4d12+7. Under this interpretation, it would do 16d12+7, critting for ~222 damage. Average health for a level 20 creature is around 380. So by critting twice, a level 19 fighter could solo a level 20 creature.
By adding on an anarchic rune, you could even guarantee a oneshot 1/3 of the time, dealing 398 damage on a crit.
Good points. I feel the Level 18 ability doesn't make much of a case, because high-level abilities shouldn't be used as examples for entry-level abilities, but the Forceful Trait requiring Power Attack to deal more damage doesn't make much sense.
Magic Weapon and Shillelagh don't contribute to the discussion. Both enhance weapons that only have one die to begin with. A Power Attack with a Shillelagh against an undead creature would deal 6dX.
The Critical Specialization point also makes sense, though. So, as I see it now, the rules elements are simply contradictory. Which seems odd to me, because I've come across many players using Power Attack, and my Fighter playing under a couple different GMs, and nobody bats an eye at it.
So either it's widespread misunderstanding, or there's another rules element out there that supports Power Attack multiplying all of a weapon's dice, and it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Then apparently this misunderstanding is widespread, though thus thread is actually the first I've seen of it. It's possible that people are assuming Power Attack us supposed to be the hands-down best option, instead of a tool for bashing through resistance/hardness and capitalizing on boosts to a single attack (Aid, True Strike, Devise a Stratagem, etc) because "always power attack was solid advice in PF1?
It can feel a lot more reasonable if you only look at PA at level 4, when Striking runes are showing up, and PA stops always being more expected damage than a couple of strikes. It's hard to claim that it's an intended operation, though, by level 10, when PA is also scaling, and that level 1 feat is well on the way to outclassing all the high level attack options, as well, under thus Multiplicative reading.
It definitely isn't actually an interpretation backed up by the PF2 rules, though.
Good points. I feel the Level 18 ability doesn't make much of a case, because high-level abilities shouldn't be used as examples for entry-level abilities, but the Forceful Trait requiring Power Attack to deal more damage doesn't make much sense.
Magic Weapon and Shillelagh don't contribute to the discussion. Both enhance weapons that only have one die to begin with. A Power Attack with a Shillelagh against an undead creature would deal 6dX.
The Critical Specialization point also makes sense, though. So, as I see it now, the rules elements are simply contradictory. Which seems odd to me, because I've come across many players using Power Attack, and my Fighter playing under a couple different GMs, and nobody bats an eye at it.
So either it's widespread misunderstanding, or there's another rules element out there that supports Power Attack multiplying all of a weapon's dice, and it hasn't been mentioned yet.
shillelagh and magic weapon add to this discussion because they further clarify what a striking rune does. It doesn't turn a weapon damage die into 2X (2d6, 2d8, whatever), it simply adds a weapon damage die, bringing the total to two damage die.
That's my whole point in including it. You're claiming a striking rune changes the weapon damage die. It doesn't. It adds damage dice to the weapon.
For your interpretation to be correct, shillelagh and magic weapon would need to read something like:
"The target becomes a +1 striking weapon, gaining a +1 item bonus to attack rolls and increasing the weapon damage die to double its original value (d4 becomes 2d4, d6 becomes 2d6, etc)."
But it doesn't. Every mention of striking runes is about adding damage dice, same as Power Attack. There is no contradiction here.
I will say though, if you find me a weapon with a base damage die of "2d6" like the PF1 greatsword, then yeah, every rune would add 2d6, and every level of power attack would add 2d6. But as it is, this doesn't happen, because those weapons don't exist.*
*Except maybe all the Polymorph Battle Form weapons like claws because that seems to be its own big can of worms.
First time I have seen someone misunderstand power attack like this, but I have seen threads here and on reddit calling it weak and useless (especially during the playstest)
Weapons have a damage die
Power attack adds one
Striking adds one per tier
Forceful and many other abilities multiply based on number of dice.
The main reason to use power attack is if you are attacking a high AC target or a target with a high resistance that you need to overcome. It is niche (compared to PF1e where you would just always power attack past a certain point) but still useful.
It is also often a better damage average for characters on a second attack of a turn vs making an attack at MAP 3 if I remember correctly (cannot be bothered running the math atm). Sure if the third attack hit it would out damage the extra 1d12 damage you are likely getting, but that -10 is often painful.
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Double dice is more fun, double roll is faster when you want to get through a fight. We switch it up as desired by the player and DM.
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I do not understand one thing: why do you not double the extra die of Fatal? Seeing that Only Deadly has the line that excludes the extra di(c)e from doubling.
The example is not the rule. And in fact, Deadly isn't even the example given, Fatal is.
The rule is "Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren't doubled."
Deadly doesn't even have reminder text for the general rule. All it has is the designation that its damage only happens on a critical hit - which invokes the general rule for Doubling and Halving Damage and makes it so that the Deadly damage doesn't get doubled.
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I must also mention that most of this thread is almost four years dead.