Absolutely Acrobatics. You'll run into enemies you cannot trip, enemies you cannot intimidate, enemies you can't feint, dance off, or dimplemancer. But you'll never (That I know of) run into an enemy that you cannot tumble through.
Interesting enough here though, you could pick up Acrobat at level 2 instead of a swashbuckler feat, and then let it go from there. Cause it gives you Expert, master and legendary at the appropriate levels. And it lets you pick up Graceful leaper as one of your style skill feats.
Absolutely Acrobatics. You'll run into enemies you cannot trip
I don't think such enemies actually exist in 2e. Have I missed any?
Absolutely Acrobatics. You'll run into enemies you cannot tripI don't think such enemies actually exist in 2e. Have I missed any?
Well, even if it's ridiculous, you can even Trip Swarms. So, no, all enemies can be tripped, Grappled or "danced".
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I think the question depends on the answer to other pending rules questions. If your GM lets you use Finesse for Dex to Trip with a Trip weapon, then a Gymnast might want to go with getting Athletics to Expert at 3.
Which brings up a build question. I've been trying to figure out the best weapon to choose for a Gymnast. At the moment I've just got a rapier, but I'm still level 1. I'm leaning towards kukri, and that would be my choice if it's clarified that you definitely can use dex to trip with a finesse trip weapon. But I'm wondering if there are better options. I do have a bola for those ranged trip opportunities and to bring down flying creatures.
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I've added a section about Swashbuckler Dedication.
I think my guide is complete.
Well, even if it's ridiculous, you can even Trip Swarms. So, no, all enemies can be tripped, Grappled or "danced".Absolutely Acrobatics. You'll run into enemies you cannot tripI don't think such enemies actually exist in 2e. Have I missed any?
Can't trip or grapple something that is too big. A small character could only do a medium, or large with a feat, until level 15, where they can do huge.
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Unconventional Weaponry doesn't work for Aldori Dueling Sword imo, it isn't an ancestry weapon and while you could say it's from the Brevoy culture it's hardly common there being a status symbol.
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Unconventional Weaponry doesn't work for Aldori Dueling Sword imo, it isn't an ancestry weapon and while you could say it's from the Brevoy culture it's hardly common there being a status symbol.
It works in PFS so I tend to consider it should work always as PFS is often very protective toward Uncommon tag.
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Unconventional Weaponry doesn't work for Aldori Dueling Sword imo, it isn't an ancestry weapon and while you could say it's from the Brevoy culture it's hardly common there being a status symbol.It works in PFS so I tend to consider it should work always as PFS is often very protective toward Uncommon tag.
I don't think that it DOES work in PFS. While they stated that the katana is useable via Unconventional Weaponry AND that one can BUY the dueling sword if your character is from Brevoy I think (I might have missed something) that they have NOT said that it is common in Brevoy for the purposes of uncommon ancestry. So you can BUY it but to get proficiency you have to go through hoops.
Full humans (not like Aasimar or Half-Orcs or w/e) can grab access to the Dueling Sword at level 1 via versatile heritage to grab the weapon proficiency general feat. That, for sure, works. (I was thinking of this in the context of a battledancer who fights with a bladed hoop, but it works for less outré concepts.)
Unconventional Weaponry is a feat I think I would appreciate some dev insight on.
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Full humans (not like Aasimar or Half-Orcs or w/e) can grab access to the Dueling Sword at level 1 via versatile heritage to grab the weapon proficiency general feat. That, for sure, works. (I was thinking of this in the context of a battledancer who fights with a bladed hoop, but it works for less outré concepts.)
Unconventional Weaponry is a feat I think I would appreciate some dev insight on.
That works but doesn't give expert proficiency at level 5. Which makes it pretty suboptimal at level 5+.
The devs HAVE commented on Unconventional Weaponry, at least as regards PFS. They know the issue and are planning a meeting "soon" to resolve all the issues (world building as well as mechanical). But until then it is my understanding that,for PFS, Unconventional Weaponry is pretty much undefined wrt human cultures.
Well, dueling sword proficiency scaling can be guaranteed with the Aldori dedication at level 2. So even without unconventional weaponry the dueling sword can be made to work with 1 general feat (via heritage) and one level 2 class feat.
No such luck for my hooper.
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Well, dueling sword proficiency scaling can be guaranteed with the Aldori dedication at level 2. So even without unconventional weaponry the dueling sword can be made to work with 1 general feat (via heritage) and one level 2 class feat.
No such luck for my hooper.
Agreed. But that is a pretty hefty cost to basically go from a d6 to a d8 weapon. I tried fairly hard to make an Aldori sword wielding swasher for PFS and gave it up when I realized the gain just wasn't worth the cost to me.
In a non PFS environment I suspect many GMs will allow "rule of cool" to win and make some kind of arrangement allowing these characters to be viable.
One of the "problems" is that the Class feats are SO good that it is REALLY hard to convince myself to swap them :-). Which is actually a testament to how well this class is designed :-). The mechanics just about force you to actually play like a swashbuckler :-).
If we do allow "unconventional weaponry" to do the "it counts as martial" thing for basically any advanced weapon, then we run the risk of basically mandating that every character who wants to use an unusual weapon is a fighter or a human.
There probably should be some generic like "Weapon Master" archetype that does the prof upgrade like the Aldori Duelist does for arbitrary weapons.
Well, even if it's ridiculous, you can even Trip Swarms. So, no, all enemies can be tripped, Grappled or "danced".The definition of the swarm trait was updated in Bestiary 2 but they are now explicitly immune to being tripped.
Archive of Nethys hasn't updated the definition... Annoying.
What is the new definition of Swarm?
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Well, even if it's ridiculous, you can even Trip Swarms. So, no, all enemies can be tripped, Grappled or "danced".The definition of the swarm trait was updated in Bestiary 2 but they are now explicitly immune to being tripped.Archive of Nethys hasn't updated the definition... Annoying.
What is the new definition of Swarm?
It's mostly identical but adds the following sentence to the end:
"Swarms are immune to the grappled, prone, and restrained conditions."
So I think technically you can trip them (relevant for Panache gains), it just doesn't achieve anything.
Swashbuckler is mixing it up more and focusing on the finisher as his primary per round, while working in a second attack when it is favorable to do so like a killing blow or flanking is set up. A good tactic for him is Tumble Through, finisher, bon mot to a different enemy to regain panache. Swashbuckler a real nice class.
Swashbuckler is mixing it up more and focusing on the finisher as his primary per round, while working in a second attack when it is favorable to do so like a killing blow or flanking is set up. A good tactic for him is Tumble Through, finisher, bon mot to a different enemy to regain panache. Swashbuckler a real nice class.
that combo can work with a wide variety of styles. Intimidation wants to demoralize (and that debuff either lasts because of antagonize, or the enemy saves you the trouble of moving closer), dancer wants to dazzle everyone in the room with a groove, etc.
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I'm disappointed that the Gymnast style doesn't allow you to change the class ability score to strength.
Trying to build a strength Swashbuckler rn in heavy armor and it's annoying to have to raise dex to not wreck my class DC.
Tiefling Dwarf 16/18/12/8/14/8
Gymnast Swashbuckler
Nimble Hooves at 1
Armor Proficiency at 3
Sentinel Dedication at 4
Unburdoned Iron at 5
Fleet at lvl 7
Fiendish Wings at lvl 9
that gives you a 30 + panache speed even while wearing heavy armor or flying
Why do you need Class DC? It seems quite possible to build a Swashbuckler who doesn't use it at all.
I honestly had to dig to even find a place that uses class DC. Most swashbuckler abilities are skill based, no save riders on a finisher, or an action saves.
Particularly for a Gymnast as seen above. they usually seek combination finishers in order to work with maneuvers.
Why do you need Class DC? It seems quite possible to build a Swashbuckler who doesn't use it at all.I honestly had to dig to even find a place that uses class DC. Most swashbuckler abilities are skill based, no save riders on a finisher, or an action saves.
Particularly for a Gymnast as seen above. they usually seek combination finishers in order to work with maneuvers.
I thought it was part of some roll on the finishers but that seems to have been a mistake.
Nice that make the stats much cleaner, can start 18/12/14/8/16/8
The problem of a Str>Dex swashbuckler isn't that you can't start with an 18 in Str (a 16 is fine for your primary stat, IMO) or your class DC. The problem is that a lot of your stuff requires an agile or finesse weapon.
So either you're using an agile weapon on a class that does not want to take a bunch of attacks, or a weapon where "finesse" is a completely useless trait (and thus a lower die size).
The problem of a Str>Dex swashbuckler isn't that you can't start with an 18 in Str (a 16 is fine for your primary stat, IMO) or your class DC. The problem is that a lot of your stuff requires an agile or finesse weapon.
So either you're using an agile weapon on a class that does not want to take a bunch of attacks, or a weapon where "finesse" is a completely useless trait (and thus a lower die size).
It's the dilemma I experience with any melee martial. It's hard for me to justify losing 4 damage a strike at level 1 until level 5 (where it lowers to 3) to 10 (still 3) to 15 (2), to 20 (2).
By level 10 I largely don't care. But before that it bothers me.
But then, swashbuckler can at least use that precision damage when not using a finisher.
But most melee martials? 18str. Dex is dependent on the armor they run. Only time I run 16 is on a warpriest. Because I can't get to 18.
If we do allow "unconventional weaponry" to do the "it counts as martial" thing for basically any advanced weapon, then we run the risk of basically mandating that every character who wants to use an unusual weapon is a fighter or a human.
Not allowing it does that too.
For something like the Aldori sword, that'll let you take the dedication at 2 for scaling proficiency, which is a much smaller price to pay than a lvl 4 class feat.And for weapons that don't have a scaling prof. feat/dedication... it means you get to play the way you want to from level 1 instead of 3, even if it means you'll just always be bad.
I'm not sure only giving terrible options to build to concept rather than optimisation is something to aim for.
I've dropped out of more than a couple of 2e games out of frustration with the straitjacketing, and my TT group is sticking with 1e because of it.
Why do you need Class DC? It seems quite possible to build a Swashbuckler who doesn't use it at all.I honestly had to dig to even find a place that uses class DC. Most swashbuckler abilities are skill based, no save riders on a finisher, or an action saves.
Particularly for a Gymnast as seen above. they usually seek combination finishers in order to work with maneuvers.
I thought it was part of some roll on the finishers but that seems to have been a mistake.
Nice that make the stats much cleaner, can start 18/12/14/8/16/8
Oh, the class save could come up on 'some' finishers. The main one I've seen is stunning finisher, which is stun 1/crit stun 3 incapacitation effect (so similar to stunning fist on monks). But that has obvious reasons for being save based.
Most other finishers are either on hit, or on failure (as seen in confident finishers). And the better finisher for gymnasts, combination finisher (which sets your MAP to -3 on usual weapons) doesn't have any saves.
Future releases might have more class dc dependent ones. But they made the big damage bleed finisher and the cleave finisher (which is actually good on a class with good forced movement abilities) into regular AC based stuff. So it might take something big for them to go for saves.
And the better finisher for gymnasts, combination finisher (which sets your MAP to -3 on usual weapons) doesn't have any saves.
Combination Finisher is not a Finisher. It's a bonus to all your Finishers.
An interesting line of thought for Gymnast is going two-handed with something like Elven curved blade or Spiked Chain and going for the Mauler archetype for the Knockdown chain.
Spiked chain gives you trip and disarm as options, Knockdown combines attack+trip without MAP increase at level 4 and imp Knockdown is automatic Trip (so automatic panache as long as you hit), Clear the way gives you up to 5 chances to get panache and a Stride, and etc.
Not sure how it would map out in actual combat, but especially knockdown is a nice option to have especially in fights where regaining panache will be more difficult
In my opinion, they won't work together well.
Mauler is extremely feat hungry.The Dedication gives you absolutely nothing.
Clear the Way is useless. If you have so many enemies around you they are certainly low level and gaining Panache is not an issue at all. Second, after Clear the Way, your MAP is worse and you haven't achieved anything but gaining Panache (you can Tumble Through to gain Panache, it's one action and it doesn't improve your MAP).
Knockdown kills your round. You are at -10 MAP afterwards. And chances are high that you don't even have Panache as you need to hit and trip to get it. And because the trip happens after the Strike, the Strike doesn't benefit from Precise Strike extra damage.
And Improved Knockdown is useless, too. For 2 actions, you can Trip the enemy and make a Finisher with Exemplary Finisher on, so you'll deal crazy damage if you hit. A much better use of your actions in my opinion. And you don't need a single feat to do that.
Also, 2-handed weapons don't complement well the Swashbuckler abilities. You lose on the +2 AC stances which is one of its strength and you don't gain much out of them as they are at most d8 weapons with unimpressive traits.
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When building a trip character, I took the Multiclass Swashbuckler dedication, If I read the rules correctly:
Gymnastics style gives Panache on a successful Grapple, Shove or TRIP.
When you have Panache, you get a "+1 circumstance bonus to checks to Tumble Through or to take any actions that give you panache due to your style".
I have no intention of ever using a finisher (or losing Panache), just get my Panache and keep it for the whole encounter to get the +5' move and +1 to Trip attacks.
knockdown is to be used in rounds you dont want to use a finisher. With gymnast especially, derring-do is a really good reason not to spend your panache since reroll on maneuvers is absolutely massive bonus.
I don't see much reasons to use Knockdown. It really isn't useful at all. Derring-Do arrives at level 10, so you should have Improved Knockdown very quickly afterwards.
as for it being feat hungery, i dont think so, you basically need 2-4-12, so 3 feats instead of the 2 that is parry/buckler+stance, at 10 you will be picking up derring-do instead of a stance either way, so i dont see gymnasts using stances too much.
3 feats, 2 of them can be used for the stance.
as for what it gives you, it gives you higher base damage since you will be using d8s instead of d6s and it will be giving basically +5 to attack on the Trip since both attack and trip on the Knockdown is on the same MAP (+0)
A d8 weapon only deals 2-5% extra damage against a Rapier. Deadly d8 happens a lot on a class that often makes a single attack per round.
If you make Trip + Finisher, your attack has a +2 from Flat-Footed and you can get a +1 from Agile (if you choose a Shortsword) and even another +1 from Combination Finisher. So you are at -1/-3 to attack. You increase your damage by +2 per die (which easily compensate from the lower die) + Precision Strike damage + Finisher extra effect.I have hard time seeing Improved Knockdown as interesting. And it costs you a +2 to AC for the whole fight for one action and another level 4 feat...
Remember that an attack with Precise Strike damage deals half of the damage of a Finisher. Even less than that if you haven't Panache at that time (because you Trip after you attack). And you Trip only if your attack succeeds when in my opinion your Trip should have way higher chance to succeed than an attack. Because you'll get to Legendary Athletics while targeting Reflex. So tripping at -5 (or -4 with Agile Maneuvers) is not much of a big deal and should have roughly the same chances to hit than attacking at 0.
With IMp knockdown, you can even do Finisher-Knockdown on the rounds you dont have to move, and that gives you a full MAP finisher, a -5 attack, and a guaranty Trip+panache back if the -5 hits.
You can't make an attack after a Finisher. Improved Knockdown lock you out of a Finisher.
Overall, I don't see Knockdown helping at all. It's very complicated, costs a lot of feats and I feel that you can do exactly what Knockdown does with equivalent success without a single feat investment.
Also, 2-handed weapons don't complement well the Swashbuckler abilities. You lose on the +2 AC stances which is one of its strength and you don't gain much out of them as they are at most d8 weapons with unimpressive traits.
Assuming Unconventional Weaponry works for this, I wonder if there's anything interesting to be done with the bladed hoop (after all, a battledancer spinning a death-hoop around is pretty cool), since it's 1 interaction to get that thing spinning until you spend an action to regrip. I'm not sure how often you'd want spend an action to get a d8 attack, but there might be something for having a free hand weapon?
If I properly read the description of the bladed hoop, you only have the d8 if you hold it with 2 hands. If you make it spin it's a d6 of damage with the Free Hand trait.
For Swashbuckler, it's interesting because you can have a free hand (and benefit from the free hand stance which is lower level than the 2-weapon stance) and still have 2 weapons (and benefit from Dual Finisher). I think it's nice to have one with another agile weapon. For me it's a valid weapon setup.
Hello,
I just read the APG again and stumbled upon the Grovel ancestry feat for kobolds. It allows a kobold to feint from 30 feet away AND against will instead of perception.
Doesn't this make kobold fencer the absolute best fencer, head and shoulders above all others (figuratively speaking, since he's still groveling on the floor) ?
Rolling against Will to get flat-footed seems kinda awesome.
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Auditory
Source Core Rulebook pg. 629 1.1
Auditory actions and effects rely on sound. An action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or otherwise produce the required sounds. A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it. This applies only to sound-based parts of the effect, as determined by the GM. This is different from a sonic effect, which still affects targets who can’t hear it (such as deaf targets) as long as the effect itself makes sound.
You make a mistake with the linguistic trait.
Yeah, that's why Bon Mot is so bad when it could be so good. In our campaign, more than half the opponents are immune.
Thanks for the guide, it is really useful to break down how the Swashbuckler can work and flags up a number of options that I hadn’t considered before.
When I've played a Swashbuckler I've found attacks of opportunity a real problem. Tumble Through provokes Attacks of Opportunity so using that to trigger panache can be painful depending upon your style.
Performance can trigger AoO if it is a dance (When you use perform to dance it gains the Move trait). Although Battledancer doesn't require the performance to be a dance, the other types of performance have their own difficulties (Play Musical Instrument has Manipulate so also provokes, Act and Oratory both have Linguistic so can only be used where you share a language). This might also alter the value of Virtuosic Performer as you may need to switch types of performance more than anticipated. Although the extra movement following a successful use of Leading Dance doesn’t provoke the performance check needed for the ability still does.
Of the other Swashbuckler styles:
Fencer uses Feint which has the Mental trait so excludes monsters which have the mindless trait (Mainly Constructs. Oozes and Fungi) but it doesn't provoke. The same applies with Create a Diversion.
Braggart uses Intimidate which also doesn't provoke but also has the Mental trait in addition to Emotion and Auditory (Although I don’t think that increases the number of excluded creatures much more than those already excluded by the Mental trait). There is also the -4 penalty if they don’t understand the language your using and you can’t repeatedly demoralize the same target until you gain the Braggart’s Exceptional Finisher at Level 9.
With the Gymnast, Grapple, Shove and Trip do not provoke, they are attacks which as the guide highlights, due to the multiple attack penalty, either reduces your chance of hitting with a finisher or reduces your chance of succeeding at one of these three actions (Although with the Agile Manoeuvres class feat you can get the latter penalty down to -4).
Wit is similar to Braggart in that it doesn’t provoke but excludes mindless creatures plus those immune to Emotion and Auditory effects. However, Bon Mot also has the Linguistic trait and therefore excludes a lot more creatures. Although One for All has the same traits as Bon Mot, it targets allies who probably are not immune to effects with those traits and as a result can be used to generate panache without provoking Attacks of Opportunity and against any opponent. However, it also requires the additional expenditure of a reaction which are really useful for ripostes etc and the Diplomacy DC to succeed can be very difficult especially early on. The requirement is to suceed at a Very Hard Diplomacy check for your level in order to gain panache which is a DC of 20 at level 1 (32 at level 10) and this can be tricky especially at early levels. The Human feat Cooperative Nature should help this with it's +4 bonus on Aid checks.
The rule that you can gain panache if you succeed at a Daring action with a high enough roll to exceed the very hard DC for your level (20 at level 1, 32 at level 10) can help but is GM dependent.
If you want a Swashbuckler that can gain panache against any creature without provoking an attack of opportunity then the only option currently is Vexing Tumble at level 6 which although not mandatory is extremely desirable for the reasons mentioned above.
Although One for All has the same traits as Bon Mot, it targets allies who probably are not immune to effects with those traits and as a result can be used to generate panache without provoking Attacks of Opportunity and against any opponent. However, it also requires the additional expenditure of a reaction which are really useful for ripostes etc and the Diplomacy DC to succeed can be very difficult especially early on. The Diplomacy DC is 25 at level 1 with the typical DC being 20 from the Aid action and a further 5 for very hard.That's not how it works.
One for all:
With precisely the right words of encouragement, you bolster an ally's efforts. Designate an ally within 30 feet; this action counts as sufficient preparation to Aid that ally. When you use the Aid reaction to help that ally, you can roll Diplomacy in place of the usual check. If your swashbuckler's style is wit and your Diplomacy check to Aid meets or exceeds the very hard DC for your level, you gain panache.You don't need to meet a "very hard DC to Aid" but a "very hard DC for your level"
That means that on level 1, you need to roll 20 to get Panache, which is the same number you need to roll to actually succeed to Aid.
Later on, that means that on higher levels (level 6+) you may succeed on Aid, even get "25 on the check" but still not get Panache.
But a character build for One for All, will usually get Coordinated aid from human ancestry and actually have a pretty good chance to hit that magic "hard DC for your level" since +4 bonuses are extremely rare and powerful.
Oops, your quite right. I've edited the post.
Swashbuckler is fun, but they definitely have some hard rounds.
As stated above, Bon Mot doesn't work on animals, mindless creatures, and you have to have a lot of languages to use it a lot.
Tumble Through can run into high reflex saves. Something with a high reflex save and a high will save is pretty rough on the SB making that After You feat to get panache pretty nice.
When the Swashbuckler can do his thing, they do some potent damage. Bleeding Finisher is nice. Then when it lasts a few rounds with the SB using his regular finisher the damage adds up.
Swashbuckler is fun, but they definitely have some hard rounds.
As stated above, Bon Mot doesn't work on animals, mindless creatures, and you have to have a lot of languages to use it a lot.
Tumble Through can run into high reflex saves. Something with a high reflex save and a high will save is pretty rough on the SB making that After You feat to get panache pretty nice.
When the Swashbuckler can do his thing, they do some potent damage. Bleeding Finisher is nice. Then when it lasts a few rounds with the SB using his regular finisher the damage adds up.
I'm currently looking at the DCs and Saves of creatures. Currently there appear to only be five that have a high or better reflex save and a high or better will save. These are:
Faerie DragonLesser Death
Ancient Copper Dragon
Skulltaker
Grim Reaper
(I've defined High etc as per the Gamesmastery Guide).
Swashbuckler is fun, but they definitely have some hard rounds.
As stated above, Bon Mot doesn't work on animals, mindless creatures, and you have to have a lot of languages to use it a lot.
Tumble Through can run into high reflex saves. Something with a high reflex save and a high will save is pretty rough on the SB making that After You feat to get panache pretty nice.
When the Swashbuckler can do his thing, they do some potent damage. Bleeding Finisher is nice. Then when it lasts a few rounds with the SB using his regular finisher the damage adds up.
I'm currently looking at the DCs and Saves of creatures. Currently there appear to only be five that have a high or better reflex save and a high or better will save. These are:
Faerie Dragon
Lesser Death
Ancient Copper Dragon
Skulltaker
Grim Reaper(I've defined High etc as per the Gamesmastery Guide).
I'm thinking more fiends. I"m classifying high as a 50/50 chance of success.