Yes, encumbrance takes into account your worn armor/equipment as well. Dumping to 7 is always a concern until you can afford ways to circumvent it like Masterwork backpacks.
Yeah I'm not a fan of totally dumping STR for this exact reason.
I'm sure you could manage with a 9 or 10 though.
Note mithral chain shirts in particular here, or darkleaf cloth studded leather. Yes, 7 Str is very hard to live with especially at level 1.
Though looking at the encumbrance rules having 7 strength means I can only carry 23 pounds worth of items so wearing a chain shirt sets me to medium load by default decreasing my max dex to 3 and giving me 20 speed, and wearing studded leather and holding 2 wakizashi's puts me 1 over.
"If you want to determine whether your character’s gear is heavy enough to slow him down more than his armor already does, total the weight of all the character’s items, including armor, weapons, and gear (...). Compare this total to the character’s Strength on Table 7–4. Depending on the character’s carrying capacity, he or she may be carrying a light, medium, or heavy load." CRB pg. 169, emphasis mine.
Yes, strength-dumped armor-wearing characters are problematic at low levels, until you can afford something like Mithral Shirt or Darkleaf Cloth Studded Leather, or a Wand of Ant Haul *. The Muscle of the Society trait can help. If that's not an option, you'll have to wear a Lamellar Cuirass for some levels.
*) Or until you can get Muleback Chords if your GM is using Automatic Bonus Progression. Which I totally recommoned, independent of this issue, as it makes the game a lot better in my opinion!
I'm playing an unchained ninja kitsune which has -2 to strength and I decided to spec into Dex at 19 but trash strength to 7. Normally from my high dex I would choose light armor such as a chain shirt or studded leather which should not affect anything but my my AC.
Though looking at the encumbrance rules having 7 strength means I can only carry 23 pounds worth of items so wearing a chain shirt sets me to medium load by default decreasing my max dex to 3 and giving me 20 speed, and wearing studded leather and holding 2 wakizashi's puts me 1 over. This seems odd to me as 23 pounds is not that much. Is putting 7 in a stat unrealistic ( this is how we usually play ) or is 7 strength really that harmful?
If it really does affect my maximum load I can always switch armors but I would prefer a work around.
Yes, that's why at low levels I ignore people who suggest dumping strength. Leaving it at 10, sure. Dumping down...no.
It's fine if you're starting at higher levels and can afford mithral armor and weapons and a bag of holding.
But at low levels you're miserable.
It can even be difficult for classes that don't rely on weapons and armor. A regular spellbook weighs in at 3 lbs, which is 13% of your 23 lb limit on a single item.
Is putting 7 in a stat unrealistic ( this is how we usually play ) or is 7 strength really that harmful?A 7 in intelligence is the highest intelligence score that you would still be classified as having mental retardation. And it is equally as bad for the other ability scores.
You deserve to suffer if you put a 7 in an ability score. Either change the score, or accept the fact that your character is pathetic.
For Comparison an average human would have a 10 in all but one stat. The young template applies a -4 to str and con. This means that your 7 strength character is only barely stronger than the typical human child. In fact, your character is weaker than the average schoolyard bully. You know, the kid that grows up to have a 12 strength.
As others have said, its a bad idea to dump strength unless you have a character that either has a way around the weight limit or can function without much gear (eg. a caster that doesn't wear armor). The frail old ninja master that is just dressed in robes? They are fine, because they don't need armor and aren't strong enough to wear it anyway.
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This is of course unless you're ok with being at medium encumberance.
I played a Gnome Alchemist with 8 STR who I intentionally kept at medium encumberance to represent the fact that he was a fat old man (that 15-foot movement speed, yo).
He was THIS GUY, and he might be my favourite character I've ever played.
(Gnome Chirurgeon Alchemist, Old age, I took the Breadth of Experience feat and a trait that gave him Bluff as a class skill. He could try any knowledge check, and would tell wild stories about how he knew everything. If he failed his knowledge he'd pretend he knew anyway.)
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"love" players who dump stats. I would turn you off every. single. combat with str damage until I just got tired of you and drained it.
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Is putting 7 in a stat unrealistic ( this is how we usually play ) or is 7 strength really that harmful?A 7 in intelligence is the highest intelligence score that you would still be classified as having mental retardation. And it is equally as bad for the other ability scores.
You deserve to suffer if you put a 7 in an ability score. Either change the score, or accept the fact that your character is pathetic.
For Comparison an average human would have a 10 in all but one stat. The young template applies a -4 to str and con. This means that your 7 strength character is only barely stronger than the typical human child. In fact, your character is weaker than the average schoolyard bully. You know, the kid that grows up to have a 12 strength.
An average human uses the NPC stat array.
Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
So a 7 Strength character is only slightly weaker than what would be considered normal for humans. 15 being the absolute strongest your average human commoner can be or 8 the weakest.
A 7 in intelligence is the highest intelligence score that you would still be classified as having mental retardation. And it is equally as bad for the other ability scores.You deserve to suffer if you put a 7 in an ability score. Either change the score, or accept the fact that your character is pathetic.
The intelligence score is not exactly a great scale to judge "mental retardation". A 7 Int is negligible to a 9 for example when it comes to making DC 10 "common knowledge" checks. Your 7 int Commoner/Expert might know two languages because they have a point in Linguistics. Orcs have a -2 to Int so with the NPC array, have something like a 6-7 is fairly common and Orcs aren't exactly described the way you think.
Even once you can afford Mithral armor a 7 STR is going to cause problems. Trying to carry enough equipment to be usefull is going to be nearly imposible.
Mithral Chain Shirt, Waribashi, , Belt of Dexterity, Cloak of Resistance, Handy Haversack, Headband of Charisma and set of Thieves tools add up to 24.5 lb. So no matter what you do you are going to be encumbered. You can also get a ring of protection and a few other magic items that do not add to encumbrance, but not much else.
Even once you can afford Mithral armor a 7 STR is going to cause problems. Trying to carry enough equipment to be usefull is going to be nearly imposible.
Mithral Chain Shirt, Waribashi, , Belt of Dexterity, Cloak of Resistance, Handy Haversack, Headband of Charisma and set of Thieves tools add up to 24.5 lb. So no matter what you do you are going to be encumbered. You can also get a ring of protection and a few other magic items that do not add to encumbrance, but not much else.
Tho' you can make a wakizashi out of mithral too, and it can be possible to outsource carrying the haversack in many parties. Steve's grippli certainly did. Also for odd historical reasons a mithral shirt weighs 10 lb. rather than the 12.5 lb. you'd expect.
As has already been covered, yeah, super low strength characters will struggle to remain under a medium load. I've been there, done that, and you definitely have to finagle every last pound to make things work. Darkleaf armor is pretty much a necessity. Wakizashis are pretty light-weight already, but if you make them out of Obsidian you can shave off another pound of weight in exchange for the fragile quality at low levels (make sure a party member has the mending cantrip), and mithril for an even lighter and more durable option at higher levels.
Don't fall for the Masterwork Backpack trap. It's a good option for staying under a HEAVY load or for mid-strength characters, but for low strength PCs...the backpack weighs 4 pounds, and your light load will only increase by 3-4 pounds, so it's a spendy mistake.
A regular backpack weighs 2 pounds. It's always somewhat of an increase to wear a masterwork backpack, as between STR 1 and 10, every point of strength is 3.3lb/weight category/STR, meaning if you have to be in light weight, you gain 1.3lb of space but that doesn't mean it's worth the extra 48gp over a regular backpack either.
A regular backpack weighs 2 pounds. It's always somewhat of an increase to wear a masterwork backpack, as between STR 1 and 10, every point of strength is 3.3lb/weight category/STR, meaning if you have to be in light weight, you gain 1.3lb of space but that doesn't mean it's worth the extra 48gp over a regular backpack either.
Ah, from that perspective I suppose. I was assuming going from no backpack to MW backpack. If you will have one regardless, then it is an improvement, but if all you own is two daggers and some armor, you won't need a pack since there's nothing else to carry.
I've gotten a few of my characters a MW backpack and it's helped them stay under a light load. At least in terms of their starting equipment. And I've never dropped Str below a 10. Even on my small characters, I bump it right back up so they don't get overloaded just from their armor and weapons.
If you don't want to buy a MW backpack or think it won't help, spend 8 gold on a mule and put everything that's not your armor or main weapon into a saddlebag.
Theoretically, you need a backpack otherwise anything bigger than a belt pouch has to be always held in hand. Wizard with a spell book? Either leave it somewhere else and hope you don't have to rest and prepare spells or put it in your backpack. Rogue with thieve's tools, can't two weapon fight because you're always carrying around your thieve's tools. etc.
Even a mule you can't bring everywhere, but the benefit of a backpack is that dropping an item (including it's contents) is a free action. You don't need to keep track of the weight of things you don't intend to wield in combat (and are consequentially stored in a backpack), and simply spend a free action to slough off your backpack on the first round of combat, if not earlier (small risk when being ambushed and loosing initiative).
The only Pathfinder PC who I've ever dumped Strength on was my witch, with an 8. And she had to suck up spending her first couple levels at Medium encumbrance, until she could afford muleback cords, because aquarium balls are friggin' heavy. (She was a white-haired witch, with a king crab for the grapple bonus, so keeping her familiar near her, protected, and hydrated was a priority.)
If you've ever looked closely at the iconic rogue, Merisiel has a 14 Strength. I did the math once, and discovered that she needed that score just to carry all her gear without being encumbered. Ever since then, I've always been careful for give my Dex builds a decent Str, too.
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Is putting 7 in a stat unrealistic ( this is how we usually play ) or is 7 strength really that harmful?A 7 in intelligence is the highest intelligence score that you would still be classified as having mental retardation. And it is equally as bad for the other ability scores.
You deserve to suffer if you put a 7 in an ability score. Either change the score, or accept the fact that your character is pathetic.
For Comparison an average human would have a 10 in all but one stat. The young template applies a -4 to str and con. This means that your 7 strength character is only barely stronger than the typical human child. In fact, your character is weaker than the average schoolyard bully. You know, the kid that grows up to have a 12 strength.
An average human uses the NPC stat array.
Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.So a 7 Strength character is only slightly weaker than what would be considered normal for humans. 15 being the absolute strongest your average human commoner can be or 8 the weakest.
The intelligence score is not exactly a great scale to judge "mental retardation". A 7 Int is negligible to a 9 for example when it comes to making DC 10 "common knowledge" checks. Your 7 int Commoner/Expert might know two languages because they have a point in Linguistics. Orcs have a -2 to Int so with the NPC array, have something like a 6-7 is fairly common and Orcs aren't exactly described the way you think.
A 7 in intelligence is the highest intelligence score that you would still be classified as having mental retardation. And it is equally as bad for the other ability scores.You deserve to suffer if you put a 7 in an ability score. Either change the score, or accept the fact that your character is pathetic.
So all the average humans put 8 in strength?
In a pseudo-medieval/renaissance society it is more probable that the 8 is in a mental stat, as 8 in constitution has a good chance to kill you before you reach adult age and a 8 in strength mean that you either haven't ever done manual labor or you are so frail that you will have trouble finding work.
-2 to -1 (7 to 9) when making any skill check isn't negligible at all. It means that almost certainly you will never get a job where you will learn enough to buy that first skill point that will allow you to benefit from your class skill bonus.
Orcs:
Along with their brute strength and comparatively low intellect, the primary difference between orcs and the civilized humanoids is their attitude.
...
Many orc tribes purposefully breed for half-orcs and raise them as their own, as the smarter progeny make excellent strategists and leaders for their tribes.
Unless otherwise indicated, a creature’s ability scores
represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11. Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), while creatures with character class levels have the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8); in both cases, the creature’s ability score modifiers are listed at the end of its description.
So the human baseline is the standard array, it is modified after you add a class.
So all the average humans put 8 in strength?
No, but an 8 Str is well within the accepted norm of a human.
In a pseudo-medieval/renaissance society it is more probable that the 8 is in a mental stat, as 8 in constitution has a good chance to kill you before you reach adult age and a 8 in strength mean that you either haven't ever done manual labor or you are so frail that you will have trouble finding work.
Not exactly, farming is pretty hard work and knowledge of nature/weather is pretty important. Crop Rotation etc... An 8 Strength in D&D means you can lift 180 lbs which is pretty impressive.
-2 to -1 (7 to 9) when making any skill check isn't negligible at all. It means that almost certainly you will never get a job where you will learn enough to buy that first skill point that will allow you to benefit from your class skill bonus.
In game terms, a DC10 Knowledge check is the goal post to get over as a commoner. There aren't DC 8 or 9 checks. Commoners with a 7 vs a 9 Int has the same number of skill points too. There aren't humans without a class level either since they don't have racial hit dice.
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So you're running around naked with just your armour on? No clothes?
In 3.5 the normal garments, if worn, didn't add to the wight of your equipment. Pathfinder hasn't kept the relevant piece of text, but a good number of players treat them as they had no weight. Herolab do the same, so it is a common mistake.
In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Your first outfit is free and does not count against the amount of weight a character can carry
In Pathfinder a common outfit weight from 2 lbs (Monk outfit) to 8 (Explorer outfit).
Then there is the Noble outfit (10 lbs) and the Royal outfit (15 lbs).Even the Monk and Peasants outfits at 2 lbs each are 2/23 of the light load of a character with 7 strength, so it matters.
If you add potions (16 for an lb), Wands (idem), and all the Bric-à-brac the players forget to calculate, those 23 lbs are used rapidly.
Once I checked the load of a player that liked to have equipment for a good range of situations. As he had str 18 and a medium armor he wasn't concerned about keeping track of the weight, as the armor already gave him a larger penalty than his medium encumbrance.
After adding all together he had more than 390 lbs of stuff, i.e. more than his heavy encumbrance.
Money alone weight a lot. 50 coind to a lb.
While an 8 STR may be within normal human range it is still low. Someone with that low of a STR is not going to be someone who does manual labor for a living. More likely this is going to be someone like a scribe, or some other sedentary occupation. I am probably going to be accused of being a sexist but it is also more likely that a character with that low of STR is going more often be female than male. So while an 8 STR would be fairly normal for a noble woman the farmer is going to have a lot higher STR.
The commoner farmer is also very unlikely to have any points in knowledge nature. For one thing they don’t have a lot of skill points and knowledges are not class skills for commoners. What the commoner will have is professional skill farmer. He does not need to know why he rotates his crops or leaves some of his fields unplanted he just does it. The wealthier farmer is going to be an expert not a commoner and they have more skill points and can actually have knowledges as class skills. The farmer is more likely to have WIS as his high mental stat than INT.
I think that a lot of people are basing their ideas on what stats should be based on modern lifestyle. We take for granted all the modern conveniences that make our live easier than our ancestors, and take for granted the increased education that a modern society entails. How many truly literate adults do you know? I am not talking about people who don’t like to read or whose reading level is below average, I am talking about adults who do cannot read a sign on the highway? On the other hand how many of us could actually do the work our ancestors did a hundred years ago?
While an 8 STR may be within normal human range it is still low. Someone with that low of a STR is not going to be someone who does manual labor for a living. More likely this is going to be someone like a scribe, or some other sedentary occupation. I am probably going to be accused of being a sexist but it is also more likely that a character with that low of STR is going more often be female than male. So while an 8 STR would be fairly normal for a noble woman the farmer is going to have a lot higher STR.
The commoner farmer is also very unlikely to have any points in knowledge nature. For one thing they don’t have a lot of skill points and knowledges are not class skills for commoners. What the commoner will have is professional skill farmer. He does not need to know why he rotates his crops or leaves some of his fields unplanted he just does it. The wealthier farmer is going to be an expert not a commoner and they have more skill points and can actually have knowledges as class skills. The farmer is more likely to have WIS as his high mental stat than INT.
Hey that's a good point. Whatever your profession is, your stats aside from Wisdom matter not. Your Str 14 Con 13 Wis 8 Farmer makes less gold than your Str 8 Con 9 Wis 14.
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Hey that's a good point. Whatever your profession is, your stats aside from Wisdom matter not. Your Str 14 Con 13 Wis 8 Farmer makes less gold than your Str 8 Con 9 Wis 14.While an 8 STR may be within normal human range it is still low. Someone with that low of a STR is not going to be someone who does manual labor for a living. More likely this is going to be someone like a scribe, or some other sedentary occupation. I am probably going to be accused of being a sexist but it is also more likely that a character with that low of STR is going more often be female than male. So while an 8 STR would be fairly normal for a noble woman the farmer is going to have a lot higher STR.
The commoner farmer is also very unlikely to have any points in knowledge nature. For one thing they don’t have a lot of skill points and knowledges are not class skills for commoners. What the commoner will have is professional skill farmer. He does not need to know why he rotates his crops or leaves some of his fields unplanted he just does it. The wealthier farmer is going to be an expert not a commoner and they have more skill points and can actually have knowledges as class skills. The farmer is more likely to have WIS as his high mental stat than INT.
True, as all Crafts use Intelligence and all Professions use Wisdom, the mental stats are what is relevant for them.
So, RAW, a strength 7 wisdom 17 longshoreman "works" better than a strength 17 wisdom 7 longshoreman.
True, as all Crafts use Intelligence and all Professions use Wisdom, the mental stats are what is relevant for them.
So, RAW, a strength 7 wisdom 17 longshoreman "works" better than a strength 17 wisdom 7 longshoreman.
The reality of this situation is that the one who makes more money is probably the "boss" of the one who makes less money. But the stat difference becomes less (percentage wise) the higher level the two npcs become. If someone is truly dedicated to their work (takes max ranks in the profession) they will eventually be better at it then someone who is an extremely talented dabbler (high stat, low ranks).
What your stats are is going to be influenced by how you live. Raw genetic potential is only part of the reason for a high stat. All stats including mental stats need to be developed by using them. Being born with a medical condition may impose limits on how high you can develop your stats, but ultimately how you live your life is going to affect your stats. Someone who actually performs hard physical labor day after day for years is not going to have a low STR.
Also the characters with high mental stats and low physical stats are more likely to be the boss rather than the laborer. This is actually handled by the game fairly well. The low STR farmer with a decent amount of ranks in professional skill farmer will have farm hands. Using the aid other rules the DC that the farm hand needs is 10. Considering that a commoner still gets a feat and has no reason to choose a combat feat skill focus is a reasonable feat. That means a first level commoner with a 12 WIS has a 95% chance to make the DC 10 roll. Rolling higher than 10 really does not make a difference for the farm hand.
The real farmer is going to want a lot of high STR helpers to do the actual work, while he figures out the best way to use his resources including his helpers.
The other thing to consider is that the low physical stats may affect the farmer in other ways. If the farmer has a low CON he gets sick a lot. That means he is not working so actually earns less. A low DEX farmer may be more prone to an accident which also means he works land earns less. The low STR farmer is going not going to be able to lift or carry as much so it will probably mean he takes longer. The rules of the game don’t take these into account because honestly they rarely ever come up for PC’s.
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I agree with everything, but RAW and logic sometimes clash.
As a homerule I would use variable characteristics for different crafts and professions and even for different checks using the same skill, but that is homerule (even if sometimes AP and adventures ask you to roll skills with different stats from the norm).
Some of the d20 system rules have been streamlined to be linear a bit too much.
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I had fun playing a gnomish sorceress with a 5 str, who carried nothing and wore only an illusion, using effortless trickery to constantly maintain a silent image.
I've played a number of low str pcs and they did fine. The only character I've ever had die to strength damage was to some shadows. The PC had a 14 str and a high touch ac, the shadows needed 18s to hit. The three shadows killed me in one round, none of them missed, and they rolled high on their d6s. Sometimes you just get unlucky.
Maybe a 7 should cost -3 instead of -4, to make the decision between 8 and 7 becomes more interesting. Getting two more ability score points for dumping a stat just one point further is quite tempting, but if you get only a single point for an increased penalty, things are not that clear...
@Sheepisheidolon, the reason it costs a -4 instead of a -3 is because the difference from the previous rating is always the modifier of the new rank (with a minimum 1 so 10>11 isnt free). Going from 8 to 7 gives you a -2 modifier so it costs -2 less 8.
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Yes, but no.
The easy thing to do as a GM is just alter the character generation rules to not allow dumping of stats.
Don't allow players to do antagonistic things, you're the GM, you have the power. Especially if the players actions result in you being antagonistic back.
Fully agree.
It is not the dumping alone. It is some player dumping the stats and the using skills or magic items to negate the mathematical effects and "roleplaying" as if they had normal or even high stats.If a character dumps charisma and maximizes diplomacy it doesn't make him a charismatic person, it makes it an unlikeable person that knows how to deal and weal at the diplomatic table.
Someone that knows how to convince you that what he wants will help you too. But that doesn't make him someone that you like or respect. The diplomacy skill effect has a short duration.
That aside, yes the GM shouldn't be antagonistic. The problem is that sometimes both the players and the GM become antagonistic. Avoiding that is the job of both.
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@Sheepisheidolon, the reason it costs a -4 instead of a -3 is because the difference from the previous rating is always the modifier of the new rank (with a minimum 1 so 10>11 isnt free). Going from 8 to 7 gives you a -2 modifier so it costs -2 less 8.
Yes but all these rules are basically arbitrary. I think SheepishEidolon knows that and is suggesting an alternative that might result in less stat-dumping in order to min-max.
Right, I am just positing the original reasoning so he can say "nah makes sense" or "screw that, I like this better even" as better informed person, as not everyone knows that's how they work.
*thumbs up*
That's a slap patch after the fact and takes away from the fun of people who can make a character with a dumped stat without trying to abuse the spirit of the game. It's better to just not be a mingy player to begin with and listen to the style of game the GM tells you you are going to play in session 0 or get out then if you really can't handle it. (Indirect you)
How does it take away fun? Because you can't min max your stats as hard?
I don't buy it.
If you want to dump stats, as a GM I'd let you do so (but without being able to get points in return).
I agree the best thing is for players simply not to do this sort of thing and not set up an antagonistic environment. Of course GMs also need to not set up an antagonistic environment, but I don't view things like restricting point buy to not allow dumping of stats to be antagonistic.
Personally, I prefer to give a stat array even compared to point buy.
And my actual house rule for play is:
Everyone gets a stat array of 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11 as base to be modified by race as normal. If this is unsuitable you may use 25 points and the point buy system in the CRB, but no stat may be higher than 18 after racial adjustments. You may not sell a score below 8.