Does anyone know if Lesson of the Frozen Queen (and the Baba Yaga patron I guess) is supposed to be a rare lesson (and therefore requires GM approval) or if only the focus granted by it is Rare? I probably wouldn't play a witch if I was denied access to Glacial Heart.Spirit Objects and Glacial Heart are rare, so I would assume the patron/lesson are as well.
"Baba Yaga (Rare Witch Patron)", Spirit Object traits "RARE, HEX, NECROMANCY, WITCH" and "Lesson of the Frozen Queen (Rare)", page 32 Legends.
So all rare.
|
Does anyone know if Lesson of the Frozen Queen (and the Baba Yaga patron I guess) is supposed to be a rare lesson (and therefore requires GM approval) or if only the focus granted by it is Rare? I probably wouldn't play a witch if I was denied access to Glacial Heart.Spirit Objects and Glacial Heart are rare, so I would assume the patron/lesson are as well."Baba Yaga (Rare Witch Patron)", Spirit Object traits "RARE, HEX, NECROMANCY, WITCH" and "Lesson of the Frozen Queen (Rare)", page 32 Legends.
So all rare.
Ah it's spelt out in LOL but not on AoN. Well guess I just have to ask any future GMs if they'll allow me to take frozen queen, if they say no I just don't pick a witch.
Ah it's spelt out in LOL but not on AoN. Well guess I just have to ask any future GMs if they'll allow me to take frozen queen, if they say no I just don't pick a witch.Does anyone know if Lesson of the Frozen Queen (and the Baba Yaga patron I guess) is supposed to be a rare lesson (and therefore requires GM approval) or if only the focus granted by it is Rare? I probably wouldn't play a witch if I was denied access to Glacial Heart.Spirit Objects and Glacial Heart are rare, so I would assume the patron/lesson are as well."Baba Yaga (Rare Witch Patron)", Spirit Object traits "RARE, HEX, NECROMANCY, WITCH" and "Lesson of the Frozen Queen (Rare)", page 32 Legends.
So all rare.
The spells do list rare but patrons and lessons would have to be programmed with rarity, so I'm not surprised AoN doesn't list them.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
When I look at the witch I think
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined). The better familiar is ok and there's certainly some neat familiar abilities but it's going to be difficult to use the familiar constantly in combat without it getting killed. I played a wizard for six levels with a familiar and it basically died every time I got caught in an AoE. Sure you can use Phase Familiar to try to save it, or Life Link, but both of those have substantial costs.
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play an occult witch (IMO) over a bard. The bard just does the buff/debuff angle better.
Fixed that for you.
Please don't be so dismissive of roleplayers and other play styles.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sustain a Spell Action: "Sustaining a Spell for more than 10 minutes (100 rounds) ends the spell".Ah, you're right. They really should just be written as "sustained up to 10 minutes" then.
Note that some spells cap out early (their duration is listed as "sustained up to 1 minute").
When I look at the witch I think
- There's no reason to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined).
Not all parties need the healing a Cleric brings. If you've already got a champion or other strong defenses, Clerics may feel a little redundant.
In that case, I think a Witch is absolutely a valid divine caster. Stoke the Heart is good and post-APG familiars can do a lot.
Theres a difference between "a Witch can't replace Cleric as a healer" and "a Witch doesn't have a role as a Divine caster".
When I look at the witch I think
- There's no reason to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined).Not all parties need the healing a Cleric brings. If you've already got a champion or other strong defenses, Clerics may feel a little redundant.
In that case, I think a Witch is absolutely a valid divine caster. Stoke the Heart is good and post-APG familiars can do a lot.
Theres a difference between "a Witch can't replace Cleric as a healer" and "a Witch doesn't have a role as a Divine caster".
Totally agree. I can see a witch as a divine caster, and I do think the witch can bring a completely different kind of play to the table. Have a bard and a divine witch in a party would work wonders. + on Attack from the bard, + on damage from Stoke the Heart, maybe even combine with elemental betrayal and have some flurry rangers as martials... Works from very low levels. Why even use spells :-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When I look at the witch I think
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined). The better familiar is ok and there's certainly some neat familiar abilities but it's going to be difficult to use the familiar constantly in combat without it getting killed. I played a wizard for six levels with a familiar and it basically died every time I got caught in an AoE. Sure you can use Phase Familiar to try to save it, or Life Link, but both of those have substantial costs.
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play an occult witch (IMO) over a bard. The bard just does the buff/debuff angle better.
Fixed that for you.
Please don't be so dismissive of roleplayers and other play styles.
It's all a false premise anyways.
He starts with an assumption about what a player wants in both statements:
The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined).
Implying the only reason to want the Divine list on a Witch is merely to be a Healer.
The bard just does the buff/debuff angle better.
This one is just outright false. Witches Debuffs are better, and acting like Dirge of Doom somehow makes them better than the Witch in terms of Debuffs is honestly just not true.
I mean Evil Eye is available at level one on the occult list as a Cantrip. How are you going to say the Bard is a better Debuffer when they can't even access an equivalent Debuff for the first quarter of the game lol.
But again, it leads with the assumption that the only reason to be an Occult Witch is that you want to be "like the Bard at Buffing/Debuffing" but better.
"If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
Everyone keeps trying to make a Witch be anything other than a Witch instead of looking at the Witch for what makes it special.
If all you see is "bad cleric/bard", then you're not really looking.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
- There's no reason to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined).
I think you underestimate stoke the heart.
It is offensive instead of defensive like heal. But that is basically a level 1 auto-heighten spell, and will cast it about as much as you would cast heal.
Also, witches have more focus points. Both starting with one and possibly another with the familiar.
There are also the extra skills + the utility from the familiar, who can fly a rope across a ravine, or independently demoralize each turn, at level 1.
So I would take a witch over cleric most of the time. Cleric for undead campaign and as the only healer. But most of the time witch wins.
Witches also get expert fortitude, but clerics are Wis primary, so call that equal.
Witch also have access to quickened casting & Effortless concentration while the Cleric doesn't (I believe Cleric is the only class with neither).
Also, you can switch around Stoke the Heart.
Put it on the wizard first and let him drop a fireball, then put it on the figher for clean up.
Also, you can switch around Stoke the Heart.
Put it on the wizard first and let him drop a fireball, then put it on the figher for clean up.
Heck a Barbarian Breath Weapon followed by an attack bounce to a Wizard with Fireball is a pretty decent bounce.
Do critical failures/successes magnify the damage as well? If they do, then bonus damage on crits, but if they dont then failures still get the bonus 2 damage as well (if a basic save).
Either way, it's pretty money on AoE spells.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fixed that for you.
Please don't be so dismissive of roleplayers and other play styles.
QFT
It's getting a bit tiresome whenever I read yet another post where someone calls X or Y weak or useless just because it doesn't mechanically outperform some other similar options. It's really strange what lengths people will go to so they can try to compare new options against some whiteboard yardstick optimization that they have for a few gameplay niches and then simply dismisses everything that doesn't meet up to their standards as being bad.
I don't play a Witch because they're "better" than a Sorcerer, Cleric, or Bard, I do so because I like the flavor, lore, and creative design of the Witch.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean "witches are weak" and "witches have good flavor/witches are fun" aren't mutually exclusive opinions to have. Feels like you're setting up a false dichotomy here.
I guess the thing I'm coming to on the Witch is that I wish less of their class budget was invested in the familiar. It's the best class if you want a superfamiliar, almost surely, but if like "Baba Yaga is your patron, and your familiar is an inanimate object" it gets a lot less exciting. This is probably a function of "we need more Master abilities" for the Witch who's going to just take those.
Like the other character with a familiar I have played was a Leshy Leaf Druid with a Leshy familiar who was a climbing vine entwined around the character, and I just took master abilities, which is a lot easier when you top out at 2.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oooooh, Witch-only Master Abilities that grant Hex Cantrips!
Oooooh, Witch-only Master Abilities that grant Hex Cantrips!
How about a hex cantrip to give your familiar abilities? ;)
PS: though I'd love to see ANYTHING to allow witches to gain more hex cantrips and/or pick one instead of it being a package deal.
I do think having two Hex cantrips would be a significant boost in power though due to the power overlapping Hexes can have (especially if they are free).
Do I think you should be able to get one? Probably reasonable, maybe as a 4th level Class Feat, which is the same level as Order Magic (though, not a Cantrip, so kinda dicey).
4th seems about right because it would be better than a Basic Lesson and it would probably be weaker than a Greater Lesson.
But again, it's much easier to give 1 action Cantrips that aren't allowed to overlap (Bard) or a Focus spell (Druid) than it is to give a Cantrip you can sustain each round and also cast in tandem with another.
Honestly, if there were more Hexes to choose from in the Lessons, it would probably be less of an issue, but then those Feats become too strong compared to other choices if you give them too many options.
If there was always a Hex I liked in a Lesson, I would probably always take Lessons.
I'm not sure what the balanced/appropriate way it is to give Witches access to Hexes, but even one additional Hex Cantrip is a significant change in the powerlevel, so it shouldn't be taken lightly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oooooh, Witch-only Master Abilities that grant Hex Cantrips!
Yeah, the real issue with hex cantrips available via post-chargen choices is potentially when multiclass characters poach them. But the bard has the same issue, and there doesn't seem to be any issue for an MC bard to grab them.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly I just think letting the Witch get the hex cantrip from their Lesson and then letting them pick a second one by itself would be fine.
Hex Cantrips are pretty tame in general and the Witches aren't exactly overbearing right now either. I'm not convinced that somehow my player's arcane witch would be overpowered if she had both Discern Secrets and Nudge Fate. Calling it a "significant change in the powerlevel" is an overstatement.
Oooooh, Witch-only Master Abilities that grant Hex Cantrips!
Yeah, the potential issue with hex cantrips available via post-chargen choices is when multiclass characters poach them. But the bard has the same issue, and there doesn't seem to be any issue for an MC bard to grab them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do think having two Hex cantrips would be a significant boost in power though due to the power overlapping Hexes can have (especially if they are free).
You can only cast 1 hex per round and the ones you could overlap require sustained so they eat up actions. As such, I don't see it as much of a boost in power but in versatility. If it's truly that powerful, they could just make a note that you can only sustain 1 hex cantrip per round but personally that sounds like overkill.
You can only cast 1 hex per round and the ones you could overlap require sustained so they eat up actions.
I stated as much in my post, but yeah that's not the problem.
Compositions work that way too, but they come with the "not more than one" stipulation.
Being able to run Evil Eye + Stoke The Heart is, IMO, better than most things casters can do at level 1 or even 2/3.
It is always the best thing a Witch can do on a turn honestly.
If you had Cackle? good night. You can spend all your Focus points sustaining your two Cantrip hexes and casting spells/moving/whatever every turn.
It would need to be high level, honestly, even 6th level Class Feat it would still be a really strong get.
As such, I don't see it as much of a boost in power but in versatility. If it's truly that powerful, they could just make a note that you can only sustain 1 hex cantrip per round but personally that sounds like overkill.
If they reduced it to one Hex cantrip per round, then that would indeed be okay.
The issue becomes being able to have two effective Hexes out at all times without Focus Points, and if you need to drop one then it doesn't even always matter provided there is another person viable to target (or the Hex does not have a lockout like Life Boost).
There is no other Class that can have two sustained Cantrips for 2 actions at all. Giving that ability out should be done with HEAVY caution.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oooooh, Witch-only Master Abilities that grant Hex Cantrips!Yeah, the potential issue with hex cantrips available via post-chargen choices is when multiclass characters poach them. But the bard has the same issue, and there doesn't seem to be any issue for an MC bard to grab them.
If it did turn out to be a dealbreaker concern that other classes could get access to them, you could resort to kind of heavy-handing a solution by giving the ability a prerequisite of something that only primary-class Witches have, like the Hexes feature itself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean "witches are weak" and "witches have good flavor/witches are fun" aren't mutually exclusive opinions to have. Feels like you're setting up a false dichotomy here.
IMO
Balance is good overall. I think eveyone undervalues the cantips and familiar. (Nudge fate is a bit weak. I would remove the sustain and make it 1 minute duration.).
The flavor is bad. It really does not feel like a witch to me. For that, I would make the familiar a feat. And make temporary potions, witches bottle, and cackle core. Along with some options to get more hexes cantrips.
It is fun. As long as you ignore the name and reflavor it as a pact-wizard, or binder. I am running mine as a child who accidental managed to bind a demon. The familiar is evil and tried to corrupt me, which it need a to do before I die. Meanwhile the child keeps trying to get rid of the demon by sending it to die. Not a "witch", but certainly fun to play.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking about Witches, I really like Life boost ( Lesson of life ).
- 30 yd ( no need to be close to the target ).
Unless something changed that I am missing range is 30 feet, not 30 yards.
In regards to the overall topic right now, I think an option for a second hex would add nice variety for both mechanical and thematic role playing.
I have been very vocal about how I feel the witch is mechanically underpowered compared to other casters and my reasons why. Something like this would help I think.
The only thing I really don't like seems to be the Phase Familiar:
- Costs 1 focus point ( It would have been nicer with no cost )
- Hex ( Counts as one of your Hexes, so you have to deal with them ).
Really really disappointed.
The hex part isn't a problem as the hex limitation is per turn rather than per round. It's still seems pretty bad to me though as it only gives resistance to one instance of damage. If it negated the full damage, lasted a full turn/round, or didn't cost a focus point it would still be pretty situational but worth it when you needed it. As is, cackle would have been a better inherent because it's consistently useful (though that would take away from the appeal of the archetype).
Would be possible for a Cleric/Champion to take witch or oracle dedication? Or would somehow be out of the character?
Sure, patrons are so open ended that they can be pretty much anything with power including just a group of people or your deity.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Phase Familiar is good because it gives you a free focus point to use with your basic lesson or Cackle.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Phase Familiar is good because it gives you a free focus point to use with your basic lesson or Cackle.
Good compared to getting nothing, definitely. However, every caster except the warpriest cleric and universalist wizard starts with 1 focus point (2 for the oracle) and a focus spell tied to a character choice, except for bards and witches which get counter performance and phase familiar respectively.
This one is just outright false. Witches Debuffs are better, and acting like Dirge of Doom somehow makes them better than the Witch in terms of Debuffs is honestly just not true.
I mean Evil Eye is available at level one on the occult list as a Cantrip. How are you going to say the Bard is a better Debuffer when they can't even access an equivalent Debuff for the first quarter of the game lol.
Not that I have a strong opinion on the power level of a witch vs bard, isn't a bard's early game debuff based on all the charisma-based debuffs like intimidate / bon mot?
Specifically looking at intimidate, it's a charisma-based skill vs will DC that can't be enhanced in duration. Compared to evil eye, it has:
1) lower duration from lack of sustain options
2) higher success rate from faster proficiency progression and item bonuses to skillsimo these two kind of cancel out, with a personal preference to evil eye being a touch stronger.
One can last as long as the entire encounter and the other can last at most two turns and more than likely one with a language requirement unless you take skill feats to supplement it.
And while Bon Mot might be charisma based, it’s entirely reasonable for a witch to grab a 14 in charisma with a 16 dex and 18 int to employ similar tactics.
And a witches bonus to hexes is going to be even with a bards Demoralize unless a bard grabs versatile performance or specifically enhances intimidate over perform (less likely) for a few levels.
You can say it’s a wash, but when evil eye succeeds it’s vastly better than Demoralize.
Investing in intimidate and investing in Bon Mot and diplomacy are two totally different ball games.
And no a bard will not be able to invest in intimidate without spending a class feat, multiple skill feats or sacrificing investments of skill increases in intimidate over performance despite performance handidly creating larger investment.
And again, one lasts one round, the other on a success lasts until the witch decides to end the sustain action. With a Dread Striker Rogue in the party, I’m pretty sure I’d choose a witch over a Demoralize focused bard every day of the week.
We can sit here and pretend that a bard is always invested in the perfect thing to obsolete a witch, despite Demoralize just outright being a weaker ability versus an all day cantrip with a shorter refresh time, but it doesn’t and if a bard chooses to do that they’ll be less effective at other things.
And a witch has good Will Saves and an incentive to not be in combat as it is, charisma is a perfectly acceptable investment when you can grab a skill feat that gives you a 20% more effective will save dc to your hexes and spells.
You don’t get to make a super specialized build as evidence and then say the opposing side can’t invest despite them actually have both the skills from int to do it and the ability score affordability.
A combat lasts five rounds and a witch succeeds on round one, Demoralize doesn’t have a prayer of getting five rounds of success.
And that alone is why it’s not even close. You stick it once, it stays for a minute, not so for Demoralize.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
When I look at the witch I think
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined). The better familiar is ok and there's certainly some neat familiar abilities but it's going to be difficult to use the familiar constantly in combat without it getting killed. I played a wizard for six levels with a familiar and it basically died every time I got caught in an AoE. Sure you can use Phase Familiar to try to save it, or Life Link, but both of those have substantial costs.
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play an occult witch (IMO) over a bard. The bard just does the buff/debuff angle better.
Fixed that for you.
Please don't be so dismissive of roleplayers and other play styles.
There's always roleplay reasons, but there's roleplay reasons to play a truenamer in 3.5, doesn't mean the class isn't a bit lacklustre mechanically.
Witch also have access to quickened casting & Effortless concentration while the Cleric doesn't (I believe Cleric is the only class with neither).
Effortless concentration is good, but comes late. Cleric has eternal blessing instead which is also quite good.
Quickened casting is difficult to fit in as a witch. Your 10th is major lesson, your 12th is refocus 2, 14th is technically empty, 16th is effortless, 18th is either refocus 3 or split hex, 20th isn't going to be spent on quickened casting. That leaves 14th as the only real opportunity to take it, and it's competing against a second major lesson.
Implying the only reason to want the Divine list on a Witch is merely to be a Healer.
The divine list is very limited - heals, buffs, counteract stuff and alignment damage is a good chunk of the list. You will probably be preparing Heal even as a Divine Witch. The extra top level slots that the cleric gets gives them the flexibility to prepare those other three types of spell where the witch would prepare Heal. In return, the witch gets Stoke, which means they need to prepare a few less buffs I guess.
This one is just outright false. Witches Debuffs are better, and acting like Dirge of Doom somehow makes them better than the Witch in terms of Debuffs is honestly just not true.
I mean Evil Eye is available at level one on the occult list as a Cantrip. How are you going to say the Bard is a better Debuffer when they can't even access an equivalent Debuff for the first quarter of the game lol.
But again, it leads with the assumption that the only reason to be an Occult Witch is that you want to be "like the Bard at Buffing/Debuffing" but better.
"If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
Everyone keeps trying to make a Witch be anything other than a Witch instead of looking at the Witch for what makes it special.
If all you see is "bad cleric/bard", then you're not really looking.
Again, the problem isn't the class, it's that most of the class power budget is tied up in casting - and the occult list does 2 things well, buffing and debuffing. Sure it can blast and can even do some healing, but if you wanted to primarily blast and heal, you'd pick primal.
So we're comparing the benefits of the witch vs the benefits of the bard. Even absent the bard's superior HP, armour proficiency, weapon proficiencies and saves, we get
Witch
- Hex cantrip
- Familiar
Bard
- Compositions
Now it's very possible I underrate familiars but in my experience they've been far too squishy as a main combat option, and the single hex cantrip really doesn't stack up well against compositions.
When you look at the occult hex cantrips - Shroud of Night, Spirit Object, Evil Eye, Nudge Fate - you can immediately take out Shroud (because 521/872 creatures have darkvision so it just fails to do anything too often) and Spirit Object (though I have been told you can use this as moveable cover at high bulk, the cantrip itself is severely lacking). Which leaves us with Nudge and Evil Eye.
Even strictly comparing them to just inspire courage. Yes, they do different things. Nudge can be used out of combat for +1 to a skill check, or can be used to boost a save. Evil Eye reduces the opponent's numbers as well. Relative to Nudge, inspire hits the whole team. Relative to evil eye, inspire doesn't require a save. Relative to both, inspire has a much better range.
That's not even accounting for the fact that if the bard wants to, they can pick up class feats to obsolete either of those options from the witch. The Witch... can't really do the same. They can archetype into bard I guess to get those things.
So lets look at the familiar. Certainly there's some decent stuff in there, and they've become a lot better with the APG. The key problem, however, is that they die too easily to AoEs, and if you try to use their offensive options (such as the faerie dragon breath weapon) then they die too easily to enemies hitting them. Spending your resources preserving them doesn't seem worth it at all.
I think you underestimate stoke the heart.
It is offensive instead of defensive like heal. But that is basically a level 1 auto-heighten spell, and will cast it about as much as you would cast heal.
Also, witches have more focus points. Both starting with one and possibly another with the familiar.
There are also the extra skills + the utility from the familiar, who can fly a rope across a ravine, or independently demoralize each turn, at level 1.
So I would take a witch over cleric most of the time. Cleric for undead campaign and as the only healer. But most of the time witch wins.
Witches also get expert fortitude, but clerics are Wis primary, so call that equal.
Both cleric doctrines get expert fort - warpriest at 1, cloistered at 3. Witch doesn't get it until level 5, so the cleric is actually ahead there.
Mechanically, I'm not sold on Stoke. It starts to under perform damage-wise even compared to clinging ice as early as level 3 unless you sustain it for multiple rounds or use it on someone with AoE. The scaling is my biggest issue with it. It starts out strong as +2, but the fact that it's heightened(+2) for only a +1 to damage really starts making it fall behind.
|
|
When I look at the witch I think
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined). The better familiar is ok and there's certainly some neat familiar abilities but it's going to be difficult to use the familiar constantly in combat without it getting killed. I played a wizard for six levels with a familiar and it basically died every time I got caught in an AoE. Sure you can use Phase Familiar to try to save it, or Life Link, but both of those have substantial costs.
- There's no strong mechanical incentive to play an occult witch (IMO) over a bard. The bard just does the buff/debuff angle better.
Fixed that for you.
Please don't be so dismissive of roleplayers and other play styles.
There's always roleplay reasons, but there's roleplay reasons to play a truenamer in 3.5, doesn't mean the class isn't a bit lacklustre mechanically.
Witch also have access to quickened casting & Effortless concentration while the Cleric doesn't (I believe Cleric is the only class with neither).
Effortless concentration is good, but comes late. Cleric has eternal blessing instead which is also quite good.
Quickened casting is difficult to fit in as a witch. Your 10th is major lesson, your 12th is refocus 2, 14th is technically empty, 16th is effortless, 18th is either refocus 3 or split hex, 20th isn't going to be spent on quickened casting. That leaves 14th as the only real opportunity to take it, and it's competing against a second major lesson.
Implying the only reason to want the Divine list on a Witch is merely to be a Healer.
The divine list is very limited - heals, buffs, counteract stuff and alignment damage is a good chunk of the list. You will probably be preparing Heal even as a Divine Witch. The extra top level slots that the cleric gets gives them the flexibility to prepare those other three types of spell where the witch would prepare Heal. In return, the witch gets Stoke, which means they need to prepare a few less buffs I guess.
This one is just outright false. Witches Debuffs are better, and acting like Dirge of Doom somehow makes them better than the Witch in terms of Debuffs is honestly just not true.
I mean Evil Eye is available at level one on the occult list as a Cantrip. How are you going to say the Bard is a better Debuffer when they can't even access an equivalent Debuff for the first quarter of the game lol.
But again, it leads with the assumption that the only reason to be an Occult Witch is that you want to be "like the Bard at Buffing/Debuffing" but better.
"If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
Everyone keeps trying to make a Witch be anything other than a Witch instead of looking at the Witch for what makes it special.
If all you see is "bad cleric/bard", then you're not really looking.
Again, the problem isn't the class, it's that most of the class power budget is tied up in casting - and the occult list does 2 things well, buffing and debuffing. Sure it can blast and can even do some healing, but if you wanted to primarily blast and heal, you'd pick primal.
So we're comparing the benefits of the witch vs the benefits of the bard. Even absent the bard's superior HP, armour proficiency, weapon proficiencies and saves, we get
Witch
- Hex cantrip
- Familiar
Bard
- Compositions
Now it's very possible I underrate familiars but in my experience they've been far too squishy as a main combat option, and the single hex cantrip really doesn't stack up well against compositions.
When you look at the occult hex cantrips - Shroud of Night, Spirit Object, Evil Eye, Nudge Fate - you can immediately take out Shroud (because 521/872 creatures have darkvision so it just fails to do anything too often) and Spirit Object (though I have been told you can use this as moveable cover at high bulk, the cantrip itself is severely lacking). Which leaves us with Nudge and Evil Eye.
Even strictly comparing them to just inspire courage. Yes, they do different things. Nudge can be used out of combat for +1 to a skill check, or can be used to boost a save. Evil Eye reduces the opponent's numbers as well. Relative to Nudge, inspire hits the whole team. Relative to evil eye, inspire doesn't require a save. Relative to both, inspire has a much better range.
That's not even accounting for the fact that if the bard wants to, they can pick up class feats to obsolete either of those options from the witch. The Witch... can't really do the same. They can archetype into bard I guess to get those things.
So lets look at the familiar. Certainly there's some decent stuff in there, and they've become a lot better with the APG. The key problem, however, is that they die too easily to AoEs, and if you try to use their offensive options (such as the faerie dragon breath weapon) then they die too easily to enemies hitting them. Spending your resources preserving them doesn't seem worth it at all.
I think you underestimate stoke the heart.
It is offensive instead of defensive like heal. But that is basically a level 1 auto-heighten spell, and will cast it about as much as you would cast heal.
Also, witches have more focus points. Both starting with one and possibly another with the familiar.
There are also the extra skills + the utility from the familiar, who can fly a rope across a ravine, or independently demoralize each turn, at level 1.
So I would take a witch over cleric most of the time. Cleric for undead campaign and as the only healer. But most of the time witch wins.
Witches also get expert fortitude, but clerics are Wis primary, so call that equal.
Both cleric doctrines get expert fort - warpriest at 1, cloistered at 3. Witch doesn't get it until level 5, so the cleric is actually ahead there.
Mechanically, I'm not sold on Stoke. It starts to under perform damage-wise even compared to clinging ice as early as level 3 unless you sustain it for multiple rounds or use it on someone with AoE. The scaling is my biggest issue with it. It starts out strong as +2, but the fact that it's heightened(+2) for only a +1 to damage really starts making it fall behind.
|
Cackle is good. But less for (lol I sustain multiple spells) and more that you are sustaining a spell and need to use all 3 of your actions. You can cackle to keep it up.
Haven't found much to get excited about with the other focus powers though
The Cackle feat specifically says "You maintain one of your spells." Are you assuming you can maintain ALL your sustain spells as free actions by cackling? That's not how the feat seems to be written. It's just 1 free maintain per round.
Both cleric doctrines get expert fort - warpriest at 1, cloistered at 3. Witch doesn't get it until level 5, so the cleric is actually ahead there.
Missed that.
Mechanically, I'm not sold on Stoke. It starts to under perform damage-wise even compared to clinging ice as early as level 3 unless you sustain it for multiple rounds or use it on someone with AoE. The scaling is my biggest issue with it. It starts out strong as +2, but the fact that it's heightened(+2) for only a +1 to damage really starts making it fall behind.
It's a cantrip. Sustain or switch to another user. And at higher levels, you gain access to more and more AoE's. Heck, even the barbarian can get one.
Also for Evil Eye. If it fails, you can just try the next target. If you land it, just sustain it.
Nudge Fate yea, not as good as Bard's.
Your going to need to work a bit to get spirit object to function well, but plenty of potential utility there. Even if it's just sending a chair to trigger a trap. But it's rare, so I ignore it.
Actually... Any reason you would not be able to tell a spike snare to go kick someone?
Shroud of Night and Wilding Word are a too Niche. I agree. Seems like Shroud should have a heightened (5) requiring greater darkvision. No idea how to fix Wilding.
But it's not cantrip vs inspire. It's nudge + free demoralize (independent + skilled + speech) vs inspire. Toss on Tough and it won't die in a single hit (it will take 2), not that it matters to much if it does since you get it daily. And grab the extra slot/focus point at higher levels. It also has access to all the lore skills, can let you fly at level 3 (enlarge spell), and plenty of other utility (with a day's notice).
Overall. I see bard-witch similar to the fighter-rogues. Trades a bit of raw power for a lot more utility.
Your going to need to work a bit to get spirit object to function well, but plenty of potential utility there. Even if it's just sending a chair to trigger a trap. But it's rare, so I ignore it.
Actually... Any reason you would not be able to tell a spike snare to go kick someone?
It's pretty good if you're inventive. You can have a potion walk over to a teammate's square, have a torch distract foes so you can ambush, a rock attack a door to 'knock', have an open vial of oil run into a campfire, have a grappling hook run across a weak floor and stand behind something for you can set a rope, have a candle run over and sit under flammable curtains, a key on a table walks itself over to your cell, a rope runs to your foe so you can Animate Rope [Bind]...
It's literally endless possibilities and why I LOVE the cantrip and why I HATE that it's rare. :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Cackle feat specifically says "You maintain one of your spells." Are you assuming you can maintain ALL your sustain spells as free actions by cackling? That's not how the feat seems to be written. It's just 1 free maintain per round.
Isn't it "one free maintain per casting" which is going to get focus-expensive real fast?
a key on a table walks itself over to your cell
I completely missed it was 30'.
Also, now I want to make a witch / investigator + Athletic Strategist. Disarm someone and have their weapon walk away.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Once you can move fairly bulky objects with spirit object, use it to move full cover in front of you after you cast.
a key on a table walks itself over to your cellI completely missed it was 30'.
Also, now I want to make a witch / investigator + Athletic Strategist. Disarm someone and have their weapon walk away.
Have it walk off a cliff, into a pit, over to it's ally and stab them in the foot...
Now I want to make a witch/alchemist so I can poison weird items, have them grow aberration-type tentacles and have them run around spreading the love. Unlike Telekinetic Projectile, there is NO prohibition on "specific traits or magic properties". A poisoned adamantine rock counts as poisoned and adamantine if it attacks as far as I can tell. ;)
Once you can move fairly bulky objects with spirit object, use it to move full cover in front of you after you cast.
"Targets: 1 unattended object up to 1 Bulk". So I don't think you'd get full cover as tower shield is 4 Bulk. Maybe if it was something like a canvas over a thin frame but a stiff breeze would break it.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spirit Object is honestly imo the perfect hex cantrip, in that it's weird and kind of esoteric and encourages creative problem solving, which I feel like should be one of the big selling points of the Witch, that it does weird things in weird ways and you can play around with that.
It's just so evocative conceptually in a way that... Guidance but you can save it and +1 to knowledge checks and perception just aren't, even if those are mechanically kind of sound.
And then there's Shroud and Wilding Word which... I know devs don't really comment but I'm really curious why they're there. They feel so bad.
Have it walk off a cliff, into a pit, over to it's ally and stab them in the foot...a key on a table walks itself over to your cellI completely missed it was 30'.
Also, now I want to make a witch / investigator + Athletic Strategist. Disarm someone and have their weapon walk away.
you don't have enough actions for that
Now I want to make a witch/alchemist so I can poison weird items, have them grow aberration-type tentacles and have them run around spreading the love. Unlike Telekinetic Projectile, there is NO prohibition on "specific traits or magic properties". A poisoned adamantine rock counts as poisoned and adamantine if it attacks as far as I can tell. ;)
Would weapons runes work? Like flaming?
Once you can move fairly bulky objects with spirit object, use it to move full cover in front of you after you cast."Targets: 1 unattended object up to 1 Bulk". So I don't think you'd get full cover as tower shield is 4 Bulk. Maybe if it was something like a canvas over a thin frame but a stiff breeze would break it.
you get more bulk at higher levels.
you don't have enough actions for that
off a cliff or into a pit you could. Go stab another foe would take an additional round to stab them but you could move it into their square in one round and stab them the next.
Would weapons runes work? Like flaming?
As you aren't using your weapon as a weapon [ie, wielding it] I don't think it could activate itself unless it was an intelligent item. It'd be pure passive things like special materials or physical fire [like a torch or fre poi] IMO.
you get more bulk at higher levels.
Yep, you're totally correct: Missed the bulk addition in the heightened section [was looking in the target section] when I glanced at it before that post. So, yeah, a walking tower shield could be of some use.
|
|
Is this really what we're getting excited over? Effectively a 1 action mage hand with a higher bulk limit?
It's cool, it's nice, but it's not "I'd totally lose 1 slot of each spell level for this" nice. And I suppose that's part of the problem with the witch. If I was spending a level 2-4 class feat for a one action mage hand I'd be pretty stoked. But I'm not, because I only ever get one hex cantrip so the one I pick has to justify the loss of the one slot per level (otherwise I should really just play a familiar wizard...)
Even stuff like Wilding Word and Shroud of Night wouldn't be so egregious if they were gotten by a class feat instead of being the main sell of your class. In the humanoid centric part of the campaign? Get shroud of night, most of those don't have darkvision. Retrain it afterwards. In the animal centric part? Get wilding word, retrain afterwards.