APG Witch Discussion


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Like most, I'm currently devouring as much new info in the APG as possible and wanted to start a thread discussing how the final Witch class turned out now that we have the final version (as my favorite class, of course I flipped to it first).

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My Initial Impressions:

Patron: Very thankful they have more relevance compared to the Playtest, and are better than PF1's implementation! (not a high bar, but still) While I personally would have liked a bit more meat - Hex Cantrips & Granted Spells seem like areas you could make unique options to help flesh out a Specific Patron, along with the possiblility of unique Lessons/Feats that have a specific Patron as a prerequisite. Have to say, this will be much better for thematic homebrewing compared to PF1.

That said, I'd grumble a bit about Evil Eye being Patron locked since that seems like something thematic enough that other Patron Witches should also have access. Also have to laugh slightly that despite the original argument over Witch traditions saying it was based on PF1 being arcane, only 1 Patron actually offers the arcane tradition (similar to divine) with occult/primal both getting 2 Patrons (3 for Occult if you count Baba Yaga Patron in Lost Omens Legends).

Overall seems like a good, if rather basic, start for Patrons and I can't wait to see when more Patron themes/options come out.

Familiar: VERY thankful that they're not a crippling penalty anymore and don't seem to have taken too much of the Witch's attention - especially since I don't really have much attachment to them as a core part of the Witch's thematic identity. (& heck, Baba Yaga in Legends already basically allows you to have an inanimate object as a familiar)

Hexes: Rather wary seeing that the hex trait only allows 1 hex cast per turn with many (not all) hexes seeming to also require focus points. This is especially true for Cackle, whose free action benefit seems a bit diminished when it can't be used on the same round as other hexes and uses up a focus point. It might be fine, but it'll definitely be a shift compared to what many probably expected.

Eldritch Nails: Seems like a hex-based variation of spellstrike? Very cool. Also love the themeing of putting runes on your nails.

Living Hair: Unlike the Nails, there is no mention of being able to add runes which I guess means you need to buy a normal Handwraps of Mighty Blows to do so? Overall, 1d4 dmg without any upgrade potential for reach like PF1's White-Haired Witch seems rather lackluster. I guess the Hair does have finesse, but the disarm/trip traits probably don't allow you to "drop" your hair on a crit fail, which seems to remove a lot of the benefit of having the weapon traits... making this feat seem less useful than just buying a simple weapon most of the time.

Witch's Charge: Love! The scars hex in PF1 was always interesting to theorycraft, and it seems like this will be a fun one too.

Witch's Bottle: Urg... putting a hex in a bottle that only lasts a day is already highly situational, and then it seems like you'd probably want Cackle to make it more worth it... except using Bottle/Cackle takes up 2/3 of your max focus points and prevents you from restoring those focus until it is used. This... sounds rather terrible. [& thematic + terrible is my least favorite combination.]

Rites of Transfiguration: Yes! Big problem I had with the playtest was something as thematic as baleful polymorph not being accessible to all witches (especially something like an occult curse witch). I was expecting it to become part of a lesson, but this works too!

Multiclass: Disappointed that there doesn't seem to be any way to access the Hex Cantrip or Granted spell of your Patron, even as an extra feat. Especially since that's were a Specific Patron is likely to do something that actually makes them unique compared to the vague themes. Not to mention this currently makes multiple patrons identical for the purposes of multiclassing, since all that matters is the tradition & skill. While I'm happy with how Patrons turned out for the main class, I hoped they'd have enough meat to still be an interesting choice for multiclass like how a multiclass cleric still cares which deity they choose - especially if want domains.

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So what is everyone else's impressions of the final class?


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm really liking what I'm seeing of the witch so far. Just finished my first game playing one in Plaguestone.

When one of the PCs got surrounded by three enemies and was getting mauled by their three-action attacks, I was able to use evil-eye actions on all three to cause their nine attacks to all miss. I wasn't able to maintain all of them, but that didn't matter as the rest of the party was able to come to his aid and put down two of the three threats. I was then able to maintain the penalties on the third remaining enemy.

When a big boss showed up, I was able to keep him debuffed the entire fight.

Cackle is also great for stretching out that debuff on a round in which you need all your actions for other things. It's also great for getting two summons out at once.

And then the forums showed us the error of our ways. Watcha' gonna' do?

My only complaint is that they seem more spell starved than other classes.

But hey, I can still make some pretty cool characters that I couldn't before.


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Temporary Potions seems quite bad.

Quote:

During your daily preparations, you can create a batch of two

temporary oils or potions using a formula you know. These
items follow the normal rules to Craft them, except for the time
they take, with some additional restrictions.
They must both
be the same type of oil or potion, and their level must be 6 or
more levels lower than your level. Any items you create this
way become inert bottles of liquid the next time you make your
daily preparations, and any remaining effects of the temporary
items end. A temporary oil or potion has no value.
If you have master proficiency in your tradition’s spell DCs,
you can create a batch of three temporary oils or potions
during your daily preparations, and if you have legendary
proficiency, you can create a batch of four.

As written, you have to pay the full cost of these potions and can fail, which is a lot worse than the Wizard scroll feat that this is based on.

Liberty's Edge

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Charon Onozuka wrote:
Witch's Bottle: Urg... putting a hex in a bottle that only lasts a day is already highly situational, and then it seems like you'd probably want Cackle to make it more worth it... except using Bottle/Cackle takes up 2/3 of your max focus points and prevents you from restoring those focus until it is used. This... sounds rather terrible. [& thematic + terrible is my least favorite combination.]

I don't know about this. Nothing in the Feat prevents you from using your own action to sustain the spell as normal once it's out, so Cackle seems nice but not mandatory.

And remember that, prior to level 12, you can only regain one Focus Point between fights anyway, not get all the way to full, and even at level 12 you only regain two per fight at most. That means that prior to 18th level, that third Focus Point is always a once per day effect rather than every fight...making it once per day that doesn't take your action to do seems like it could be relevant.

In short, having only one or two Focus Points but also a Witch's Bottle isn't all that different from having 3 Focus Points a lot of the time.

I think it's kind of a niche Feat, but I wouldn't call it terrible.


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I had been eagerly waiting to see Witch as I had thoughts of reclassing my Cleric of Nocticula into a Witch on release of the APG, but I have some concerns.

First and foremost is that the obvious Night patrons cantrip is useless against anything with Darkvision which is... a lot of badguys.

As well, I'm not sure that a Witch can really carry the Healer rule on the Occult spell list... though there are a couple of shiny new archetypes that could help.

The real hurdle though is, what I'm getting for giving up five(5!) max level Heal spells a day- which is mostly the familiar and maybe a cantrip of middling use.

I really like the possibilities with a familiar, but five Heals is a hard sell....


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
KrispyXIV wrote:

I had been eagerly waiting to see Witch as I had thoughts of reclassing my Cleric of Nocticula into a Witch on release of the APG, but I have some concerns.

First and foremost is that the obvious Night patrons cantrip is useless against anything with Darkvision which is... a lot of badguys.

As well, I'm not sure that a Witch can really carry the Healer rule on the Occult spell list... though there are a couple of shiny new archetypes that could help.

The real hurdle though is, what I'm getting for giving up five(5!) max level Heal spells a day- which is mostly the familiar and maybe a cantrip of middling use.

I really like the possibilities with a familiar, but five Heals is a hard sell....

I'd say the real trick here is that it's a worse "white mage" but great if you want to do other stuff as well as heal. Occult does get soothe, which is the best single target heal spell, but overall it's not a great healbot list.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm severely disappointed by the lack of multiple hex cantrips. I don't consider this a playable version of the class as-is. Particularly because you can't pick out a spell list independent of your one hex cantrip.

There are also no sufficiently powerful buff cantrip hexes. I want to see something on the order of Inspire Courage, given all the other ways Witches are inferior to Bards.


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I see that Slumber Hex kind of lives on in the form of the Veil of Dreams focus power, which even on a successful save imposes a -2 to will saves against sleep for as long as you sustain it. Sleep is incapacitation, so you can't go crazy on bosses, but this focus power plus a heightened sleep (past the level where combat noises don't wake it) can still be a pretty reliable one round monster deletion against reasonable opposition.


I think one thing I missed on my first couple reads that is interesting for the witch is the bulk of their hexes cantrip or normal are 1 action or reaction type abilities. This actually makes them a bit stronger as you can do a hex and another spell or hex an action like sustain and a move. The weird part is the hex strike of their eldritch claw feat is REALLY hard to use until you get access to the highest end hexes because almost none of them appear to meet the requirements for the hex strike.


Cackle through archetype seems as nice as advertised, yes?


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Wizard getting Witch MC is pretty decent. Go to steal Cackle or another Hex like Life Boost or Elemental Betrayal and ends with a free familiar. And the stuff even will be Arcane and with Int for you making it even more convenient.


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I strongly dislike the Patrons as they exist, mostly it seems as if you would get stuck with a spell list, hex cantrip or granted spell that you don't want.
If you could pick up other hex cantrips and spells with a feat, as a Basic Lesson,that would somewhat mirror the Bards ability to gain multiple Muses.

A Bard plus Familiar Master seems like a Witch, but better armed and more fun.

The Bottle is good for buffs only,so no throwing a bottle of offensive hex at anyones head.
The Ward Hex can't be used on the unwilling.
I love playing the support roll but why not give more versatility by allowing a saving throw on Ward and allowing the Hex in the Bottle to trigger when it's used as a weapon.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
I'd say the real trick here is that it's a worse "white mage" but great if you want to do other stuff as well as heal. Occult does get soothe, which is the best single target heal spell, but overall it's not a great healbot list.

Is it? Soothe heals d10+4 (average 9.5) at a 30 foot range for 2 actions, while Heal heals d8+8 (average 12.5) at the same range for the same number of actions, and also has options for a weaker quick touch heal or an AOE heal.

Sure, Soothe also has the bonus to mental saves, but that doesn't stack with multiple Soothes and I doubt that it makes up for 30% more healing + additional options, except in very specific circumstances.


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Witch in general seems like a pretty weak class to me. Not unplayable by any means, but just like Krispy did the comparison with Cleric, witches seem weaker than... pretty much all sister classes of the same tradition. They give up a spell per level to get... a familiar, which has questionable utility and can be picked up by anyone easily (won't be as powerful, but powerful enough), and a Hex Cantrip of variable power, from absolute trash to okay but still much behind Inspire Courage. And all that on a D6 Cloth Caster with bad saves. Eh.

Witch seems like a fun class to play, but it lacks a mechanical point, IMO. It's not the best at anything, but it's also not a jack of all trades like the Druid.


I think the only really unique thing the Witch can do is abuse the Familiar's Eyes 12th level feat for remote scouting during exploration mode (sorry, GMs) and combine with the Familiar Master archetype feat Familiar Conduit to use your familiar to bomb enemies from the sky or down a corridor where you're immune from retaliation. Not fun too often for the GM or you, and you an legitimately expect to lose the familiar occasionally, but very effective.

For best sustainable guerilla warfare use Malicious Shadow as a reliable and reloadable attack that can be sustained for thirty attacks while your familiar runs away and you're nowhere to be found. Hope you Dispel, bro.


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I am also finding it odd that there is absolutely no way to get a hex cantrip other than at first level of the base Witch class. Multiclass Archetype doesn't get it at all, and even a base Witch doesn't ever get more than one.

Even if it was intentional to only ever get one hex cantrip, why the omission of a Witch Archetype feat to get the cantrip hex? Even better would be as a rider to Basic Witch Spellcasting - similar to how Basic Witchcraft restores the full familiar ability count.


Xenocrat wrote:
I think the only really unique thing the Witch can do is abuse the Familiar's Eyes 12th level feat for remote scouting during exploration mode

I think it is meaningfully unique of the class to be a prepared caster of any one of the traditions. Much like the sorcerer is a spontaneous caster of any of the traditions.

The other unique thing that I see in Witch is that it is fairly easy to poach spells from other traditions. The published lessons already give some good ones like Mage Armor, Burning Hands, and Field of Life. And if your group homebrews feats you could get nearly anything on your list of spells known.


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Pretty unsure about the witch. The hex cantrips are a bit disappointing. I like evil eye and think its probably the best one. Others seem way too careful. The ice one could really have dealt the damage each round for example. The rune hex cantrip is weird too. Just kind of underwhelmed with a lot of them. Evil eye is cool though.

Really feel like witch should have had 4 spellslots in the current state. The familiar is nice but not that much nicer than a familiar wizards.

The focus hexes are nice but wizard gets focus powers too.

The feats are cool but also not super amazing stuff.

There just seems nothing that warrants not having 4 slots.

All in all it feels like they were too careful with the witch.


Was going to build an Occult caster. Checked the Witch. Wasn't impressed. Still wanted prepared Occult casting to test more spells. Now I'm building an Occult Sorcerer with Witch Mutliclassing.

The buffed Familiar is nice, as is access to some Focus power Hexes (because many 1st level Sorc Focus Powers suck).


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Candlejake wrote:
There just seems nothing that warrants not having 4 slots.

Funny, that's my take on the Oracle. Well, witch, too. But mostly Oracle.


Blave wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
There just seems nothing that warrants not having 4 slots.
Funny, that's my take on the Oracle. Well, witch, too. But mostly Oracle.

Huh i actually really like the oracle. Having less slots hurts a bit less if you are spontanous. But maybe thats just a feeling. And their focus spells seem better than the witches. Some of the curse bonuses are really good too like the resistance cosmos gives. They also have 8hp and can wear light armor. My main gripe with the oracle is the divine list, which is why every oracle i theorize is a kobold for the cantrip.

And all in all at least oracles mechanics feel very unique, more so than the witches.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The-Magic-Sword wrote:


I'd say the real trick here is that it's a worse "white mage" but great if you want to do other stuff as well as heal. Occult does get soothe, which is the best single target heal spell, but overall it's not a great healbot list.

Careful. I made this same opinionated claim a couple months ago. Since I apparently overestimated the importance of the +2 save over and above the heal. And I got ripped apart on the boards for days afterwards. And even when I said it was just my opinion, it was still wrong. =P


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Candlejake wrote:
The ice one could really have dealt the damage each round for example.

Doesn't it?


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Sporkedup wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
The ice one could really have dealt the damage each round for example.
Doesn't it?

From how its written it sounds like it does damage initially. The save reads "the target takes full damage and takes a -5 circumstance penalty to speed until the spell ends". No mention of it dealing damage again. So the only thing you gain from sustaining it is a -5 penalty to speed.

The murky darkness focus cantrip i also dont understand. Why couldnt it just make everything concealed to the target, full stop. By not affecting creatures with darkvision it becomes way worse.

Discern secrets gives a free recall knowledge and a +1 to perception, sense motive and recall knowledge for the duration. Good with a mastermind rogue in the party but imo never worth sustaining in a fight.

Nudge fate seems actually not better than guidance.

Wild word only works on animals plants and fungus. Oof.

Stoke the heart seems fine but you have to take the divine list for that.

Most of the focus cantrips that arent evil eye or stoke the heart have a line added that makes them become pretty niche. And if the cantrips are the reason why they dont get 4 spell slots they should not be niche, but more of an "you can always fall back on that" kinda thing.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Damn, I hadn't looked at them all that closely yet. Those really aren't good, and are miles behind bards. I assumed once per target sustained spells would do a lot every round and go away as soon as the target cleared their save. I didn't realize they'd do not much at all. :(


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Candlejake wrote:


Nudge fate seems actually not better than guidance.

Guidance is one-and-done, if they roll and roll a nat-17, then they were going to succeed without guidance anyway. But now they're immune to guidance for an hour.

Nudge Fate keeps giving them that +1 until it turns a failure into a success.

What it's not better than is the Bard's Inspire Competence.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, what are thoughts on effects vs sustain? Initial casting, the target rolls and then sustaining just maintains that for up to a minute?

If the latter, do they roll every turn, even if they succeeded already, as long as you sustain? That might be a reading that gives these a bit more potency. Though I'm probably way off base here.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Draco18s wrote:
Candlejake wrote:


Nudge fate seems actually not better than guidance.

Guidance is one-and-done, if they roll and roll a nat-17, then they were going to succeed without guidance anyway. But now they're immune to guidance for an hour.

Nudge Fate keeps giving them that +1 until it turns a failure into a success.

What it's not better than is the Bard's Inspire Competence.

I also really really hate how it can't turn a success into a crit success.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ched Greyfell wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:


I'd say the real trick here is that it's a worse "white mage" but great if you want to do other stuff as well as heal. Occult does get soothe, which is the best single target heal spell, but overall it's not a great healbot list.
Careful. I made this same opinionated claim a couple months ago. Since I apparently overestimated the importance of the +2 save over and above the heal. And I got ripped apart on the boards for days afterwards. And even when I said it was just my opinion, it was still wrong. =P

I could have sworn there was consensus about it being better, but now that I look at the way it adds up, it does seems like 2 action heal is (marginally) better.


I'm impressed with how terrible Temporary Potions are as written, with the Witch having to provide the full cost to create potions that only last one day and can't be sold.


My Witch player has been pretty unimpressed with the APG Witch thus far. In fairness, it was always the flavor of the witch she liked, not the mechanics of it. She really disliked going from 4 slots a level to 3. She's going to try out Witch for one more level, and if she's still not feeling it we're going to rebuild her character as a Wizard with Familiar Master, since the parts she likes most about Witch is the powerful familiar and prepared arcane spellcasting. I'm also probably going to let her take the Witch's Hut feat even if she switches, she really likes the idea of it and I doubt it would be unbalanced.


Sporkedup wrote:

Actually, what are thoughts on effects vs sustain? Initial casting, the target rolls and then sustaining just maintains that for up to a minute?

If the latter, do they roll every turn, even if they succeeded already, as long as you sustain? That might be a reading that gives these a bit more potency. Though I'm probably way off base here.

Exactly what it says on the tin. For the next minute, until they turn a failure into a success, they get the effect of "if a +1 would turn a failure into a success, get a +1."

As soon as the +1 triggers, the spell ends.
As soon as 1 minute has passed, the spell ends.

WatersLethe wrote:
I also really really hate how it can't turn a success into a crit success.

I do too.


Xenocrat wrote:

I think the only really unique thing the Witch can do is abuse the Familiar's Eyes 12th level feat for remote scouting during exploration mode (sorry, GMs) and combine with the Familiar Master archetype feat Familiar Conduit to use your familiar to bomb enemies from the sky or down a corridor where you're immune from retaliation. Not fun too often for the GM or you, and you an legitimately expect to lose the familiar occasionally, but very effective.

For best sustainable guerilla warfare use Malicious Shadow as a reliable and reloadable attack that can be sustained for thirty attacks while your familiar runs away and you're nowhere to be found. Hope you Dispel, bro.

I think one thing witches have is with their familiar interestingly variable skill monkey access that can be adjusted every day.

Skilled (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 146): Choose a skill other than Acrobatics or Stealth. Your familiar's modifier for that skill is equal to your level plus your key spellcasting ability modifier, rather than just your level. You can select this ability repeatedly, choosing a different skill each time.

You can retake that ability multiple times and at level 20 a familiar focused witches familiar has like 12 or so familiar abilities. So this basically gets you a solid amount of skills of your choice that use your spell casting modifier so they should be pretty competent at them.

Being able to on the fly every day you prep spells choose 4 or 5 skills you yourself don't have gives you a broad list of stuff you could do also it lets you have your familiar pick a lot of hyper specific lore stuff that may be pertinent to what you are doing at the moment without anybody in your party needing to invest more permanent resources in doing it.


The witch is SO CLOSE though. The class looks fun and interesting and thematic, except for this one hole where hex cantrips are concerned, and that is so easy to solve. As soon as they put out some worthwhile hex cantrips, the witch goes to the top of my to-play list. They can make the good ones uncommon, if they are worried about balance, and let GMs decide if they want witches to...well, to be good or not. That sounds really slanted, but am I wrong? I'm happy to be proven wrong.


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Xenocrat wrote:
I'm impressed with how terrible Temporary Potions are as written, with the Witch having to provide the full cost to create potions that only last one day and can't be sold.

Its not terrible its just a bit situational. Basically you can make consumables while out adventuring that you don't have to go to town to shop. Given you know they will last a day no reason not to use them up and if your group is helping fund the creation of stuff like this to hep them its pretty reasonable way to supplement your parties away from town endurance.


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I think witch is one of those things that will blossom with a few more feats. Simply having an order explorer type feat that lets you grab another hex cantrip fixes a lot of my issues with hex cantrips. Its okay if they are super situational its not okay if you are locked into that one situational ability forever without any ability to change it or get another.


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WatersLethe wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
Candlejake wrote:


Nudge fate seems actually not better than guidance.

Guidance is one-and-done, if they roll and roll a nat-17, then they were going to succeed without guidance anyway. But now they're immune to guidance for an hour.

Nudge Fate keeps giving them that +1 until it turns a failure into a success.

What it's not better than is the Bard's Inspire Competence.

I also really really hate how it can't turn a success into a crit success.

I do think nudge fate is better than guidance, but I feel little exceptions like that are annoying and I wish Paizo wouldn’t do this. I love the narrow math system and all but do we really need to remember little exceptions like this across a bunch of stuff? I wish they would just further go down the path of simplicity.


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Hex cantrips are a tradeoff for one less spell slot; what if they published one patron that, instead of giving you a hex cantrip, just gave you that spell slot back? Seems like a pretty easy fix for hex cantrips not being entirely satisfactory. It would also provide excellent data to see whether players consider hex cantrips a worthy tradeoff.


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Xenocrat wrote:
I'm impressed with how terrible Temporary Potions are as written, with the Witch having to provide the full cost to create potions that only last one day and can't be sold.

It's pointed out to me that the "value" of the potions is zero in the feat, and you have to provide the "price" in materials to craft, and extra crafting reduces the "value" of the materials, so I think the RAW is that it's always free to craft something that has no value. So this is useable.

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Potions I can see making with this:

Healing (1d8 at witch level 7, 2d8+5 at 9, 3d8+10 at 12, 6d8+20 at 18)

Invisibility (level 10)

Panacea (level 19)

Flying (1 minute, level 14)

Quickness (level 14)

Water Breathing (level 9)

Shrink (levels 10/14)

APG:

Disguise (level 11/14/17)

Expeditious Retreat (level 7)

Retaliation (level 7/10/13/18)

Shared Memories (level 7)

Ration Tonic (level 7/13)

Time Shield (level 19)

---

Oils I can see making:

Aligned (level 15)

Animation (level 18)

Keen Edges (level 17)

Mending (level 9)

Weightlessness (level 8/12)

APG:

Object Animation (level 14 for a 3rd level animated object)

---

Very little of impact and of low enough level to make this a great feat even at zero cost. Invisibility and Water Breathing as utility are probably about it when this becomes available unless you're really desperate for a weak heal. Retaliation is good at level 13 against things with weakness if you predict the energy type, and a level 13 ration tonic is kind of funny/useful.


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kaid wrote:

I think one thing witches have is with their familiar interestingly variable skill monkey access that can be adjusted every day.

Skilled (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 146): Choose a skill other than Acrobatics or Stealth. Your familiar's modifier for that skill is equal to your level plus your key spellcasting ability modifier, rather than just your level. You can select this ability repeatedly, choosing a different skill each time.

You can retake that ability multiple times and at level 20 a familiar focused witches familiar has like 12 or so familiar abilities. So this basically gets you a solid amount of skills of your choice that use your spell casting modifier so they should be pretty competent at them.

Being able to on the fly every day you prep spells choose 4 or 5 skills you yourself don't have gives you a broad list of stuff you could do also it lets you have your familiar pick a lot of hyper specific lore stuff that may be pertinent to what you are doing at the moment without anybody in your party needing to invest more permanent resources in doing it.

The problem with this that I see is that the skill modifier is only part of it. The familiar is still untrained with the skill - so they are locked out of any of the uses of the skill that require trained or better.

So a familiar trained in Thievery could pick a pocket, but couldn't pick a lock.


breithauptclan wrote:

I am also finding it odd that there is absolutely no way to get a hex cantrip other than at first level of the base Witch class. Multiclass Archetype doesn't get it at all, and even a base Witch doesn't ever get more than one.

Even if it was intentional to only ever get one hex cantrip, why the omission of a Witch Archetype feat to get the cantrip hex? Even better would be as a rider to Basic Witch Spellcasting - similar to how Basic Witchcraft restores the full familiar ability count.

This is really strange, since most classes with a defining ability (inspire courage, flurry of blows, etc.) grant access to that ability eventually when multiclassing. I wonder if that was an oversight due to changes to the Witch being made late in the development cycle? That might also explain why cantrip hexes seem to lack any feat support, as there might not have been time to do as much of an overhaul of the class as people probably expected.

Luckily the latter issue can be remedied with cantrip hex feats in future books (and since the next one is magic focused, I'm confident it will be), but I'm not sure if Paizo would errata a multiclass archetype.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

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Regarding Evil Eye, I must be not understanding something.
What is the point of sustaining this if they are immune for 1 minute after the first save?
It says "Regardless of the outcome, the target is then temporarily immune for 1 minute."

And how does spellcasting work if you don't select a Lesson. It says "Trained in spell attack rolls of your spellcasting tradition,
determined by your first lesson.
Trained in spell DCs of your spellcasting tradition, determined by your first lesson"

Liberty's Edge

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Grumpus wrote:

Regarding Evil Eye, I must be not understanding something.

What is the point of sustaining this if they are immune for 1 minute after the first save?
It says "Regardless of the outcome, the target is then temporarily immune for 1 minute."

If they succeed on the Save there is no point. If they fail, you can keep them Frightened 1 for the full minute by maintaining, since the spell includes wording where they can't get rid of the last point of Frightened as long as you sustain the spell.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, they don't become immune the current attempt, just later attempts.


Grumpus wrote:

And how does spellcasting work if you don't select a Lesson. It says "Trained in spell attack rolls of your spellcasting tradition,

determined by your first lesson.
Trained in spell DCs of your spellcasting tradition, determined by your first lesson"

"first lesson" is probably holdover language from the playtest that needs errata. Your spellcasting tradition is determined by your selection of patron.


Elemental betrayal is kinda nuts imo.

Since it triggers every time the target takes the appropriate damage, you can do some serious harm if your party is also using the same type of damage, even with simple weapon property runes, at something like level 11 adding 7 damage per strike, to the whole party, for a minute, without saving throw is pretty good i'd say.

even better if you're an alchemist with witch dedication so that your bombs do the extra damage both on hit and on each persistent tick^^


Yeah, elemental betrayal is the kind of thing that started the Radiant Mafia in 4e, thé best thing is, it's not limited to 1 element so you can have your party build to avoid resistance/immunities and benefit from it.

I shiver also thinking of the combo with a flame Oracle!


shroudb wrote:

Elemental betrayal is kinda nuts imo.

Since it triggers every time the target takes the appropriate damage, you can do some serious harm if your party is also using the same type of damage, even with simple weapon property runes, at something like level 11 adding 7 damage per strike

It doesn't scale that fast, it starts at 2 and only increments 1 per two spell levels, so maxes out at +6 at character level 17. It's +4 at level 11. It's good, but it does require multiple characters applying the weakness to be great.

Compare to genie bloodline's Wish Twisted Form, which while a Focus 5 grants much stronger weakness (equal to spell level), reduces resistances by the same amount, reduces all saves by 1, reduces speed, and can reduce AC on a crit fail. It does grant a save, but still lasts one round on a success and doesn't need sustaining on a fail.

Still, I can see a Witch build around elemental betrayal, especially with an alchemist in your party. Produce Flame needs to be one of your cantrips, and Heat Metal and Blistering Invective are no brainer spells to prepare depending on your list. Personal Blizzard also combos to get more out of that weak persistent damage. Also the new potion that inflicts energy damage when touched/hit.


Xenocrat wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Elemental betrayal is kinda nuts imo.

Since it triggers every time the target takes the appropriate damage, you can do some serious harm if your party is also using the same type of damage, even with simple weapon property runes, at something like level 11 adding 7 damage per strike

It doesn't scale that fast, it starts at 2 and only increments 1 per two spell levels, so maxes out at +6 at character level 17. It's +4 at level 11. It's good, but it does require multiple characters applying the weakness to be great.

Compare to genie bloodline's Wish Twisted Form, which while a Focus 5 grants much stronger weakness (equal to spell level), reduces resistances by the same amount, reduces all saves by 1, reduces speed, and can reduce AC on a crit fail. It does grant a save, but still lasts one round on a success and doesn't need sustaining on a fail.

Still, I can see a Witch build around elemental betrayal, especially with an alchemist in your party. Produce Flame needs to be one of your cantrips, and Heat Metal and Blistering Invective are no brainer spells to prepare depending on your list. Personal Blizzard also combos to get more out of that weak persistent damage. Also the new potion that inflicts energy damage when touched/hit.

yup, messed up the scaling, but on the other hand, Twisted Form has a save, Elemental Betrayal doesn't, that's a really big difference, as is hte 1 action as opposed to 2. On the pros of twisted form, if the enemy fails the save, it doesn't need concentration to last the full minute.

but that's a reasonable difference between a focus 1 and a focus 5 spell either way.

regarldess, even at +4 damage at level 9, or +5 damage at level 13, it's still really powerful imo. And exactly because it it's a level 1 feat, it's so easy to snag as a multiclass as well.


Well technically a Genie Sorcerer can have both Elemental Betrayal and Twisted Form and they stack.

And the Sorcerer even get a free familiar.

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