I'm fond of the "maximum value" approach that they took, but I would like it to be clear that you can't accidentally lower the value.
If they did adding the value, I feel like they'd have to go back to the 10% sell price rules. It feels nice having a way to use gear for its full value- even if that's only until you feed it the next higher piece of gear. (This way, I can absorb an item and "learn" it, or use it to make an item of comparable value.)
I guess I shouldn't worry, though. Even if they change it, I still get to use this version for months until the book comes out.
So firstly, you can add any of your starting wealth to your investment pool
As far as I see there is nothing stating what happens when you gain a new level. Or even being able to break down items after the initial start of the pool.
I didn't consider that you could lose your nanite investment. That's an interesting find.
I considered that it seemed strange that there would be a dominant list of 'hey, give me that item so I can decompose it, it's the most expensive item in any book for this level' (which is probably a concern that isn't a big deal, but it still feels off).
I would think that it would be more in line with a desirable scaling to have a table showing the maximum size of a nanite investment per level. Or a simple formula. So it doesn't matter if you are investing nothing but knives and shot pistols. It takes longer to fill your tank, but you still eventually get there.
Either way the player is bookkeeping a separate wealth table. At least this way you're not looking for the best item all the time.
Yeah, that's one of the options I mused in my theoretical analysis thread.
Right now it feels like the party will just roll their eyes when the nanocyte asks for the best item. Reminds me of the old D&D days where the wizard asked for more shares of the treasure because he had to spend money on new spells.
I said in another thread it seems very neatly packaged at the moment. It is like buckets of legos. Buy a bucket and play as want. Buy a new bucket as wanted for more options. Using legos since easy to view as taking part or all to build something and then breaking down to build something else.
I also think the pool total after breakdown being new helps stop someone from taking every weapon and piece of tech they find and just growing a huge pool with a minimum of paperwork. Break down item the that is pool # with option of up to another 10% is much better than worrying about tracking the math over multiple levels of adding a bit here and there.
You can theoretically reduce the amount of credits you have as a character by throwing your credsticks off a building too. Or buying a bunch of items you can't effectively use.
I see where they were going with it. It lets you take loot after a game session, and melt it down into a new maximum if needed. If you don't loot a good new basepoint for your nanite invenstment, you can just buy the item to melt down. Yes it 'wastes' your previous pool, but it's practically necessary since anyone else is 'losing' credits as they level, since they're outgrowing gear.
It's like how it is with any class, you can save up credits for the fancy new toy once you reach level x (like saving up for a new nanite investment every few levels), or you can constantly buy a new slightly better upgrade as you level (like trying to get a new investment every time you finish a sessionor level),but you'll be behind the character who is saving up.
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I guess the question I would have is, 'what is the design intent behind trashing loot for bookkeeping?' Why is that strictly better than a simpler 'your nanites are constantly in action around you, converting dust, air, and bits of matter..including what you injest...into more nanites. You can cause the nanites to form an object you've learned (major/minor forms, etc)...' No bookkeeping other than the forms you know. It's likely that people will gravitate toward specific 'good' or 'best in class' forms, but honestly, they'll do it anyway.
My guess is that they don't want to let nanocytes hop off the loot treadmill.
Thing is, Solarians and Vanguards and...really any unarmed fighting build... get "free" weapons and there are still ways to keep them buying fighty gear.
I think that it is a much better idea to have a static maximum credit number, then create a class of items called "nanite resevoirs" that can increase your investment and maybe provide an extra effect when you absorb an item. Kinda like a nanocyte version of solarian crystals.
A definite issue with just adding and adding to your Nanite Investment is how the economy in SF is.
You can't just add UPBs or items to your investment at full value. Your Nanite investment will become gigantic, quickly. There would be no waste, no outleveling it, everything you put in will be good and usable forever, and you will become very 'wealthy' in how you can spend your excess credits outside of the nanite investment.
However on the flip side, it can't just be "you just add 10% of whatever you put in to keep increasing your Nanite investment". If you math it out even over a few levels, the Nanocyte become woefully behind in where they 'should be'. The Nanite investment would become pathetically low if you start at level 1 and pump every dime you're on average supposed to get as you level. So even if you got a ridiculous amount of items and stuff while leveling from levels 1 to 10, 200,000 worth of credits of bits and bobs we'll suppose (way more than you normally would), and every ounce of it went to your nanite investment, your Nanite investment would be 20,000. Which is well below the 66,000 estimated Wealth that a level 10 character should have (and you'd have no armor or other gear at all, since it all went into the investment).
This system as it is now strikes a balance between the two, without introducing some kind of unusual concept of 'selling' at item into your investment that's not full or 10% of the item's value. It's a little odd on its face, but personally I think it's still fair and makes it work pretty closely to how other characters would gain wealth.
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Yup, this nanite investment is beyond me. Why not use the cap to say "You can take THIS many ITEMS of those types"? Just say, "At level 1, you can have 2 Major Forms in any combination of weapons and cybernetics". So EITHER 2 weapons OR 2 cybernetics OR 1 weapon and 1 cybernetic. Why go through the whole UPB thingy, when you can simplify the process? I think this makes it simpler. Kind of the same way Prototype Mechanics can get a free weapon or armor so long as the mechanic is level 1 or the weapon/armor is 2 levels lower than your mechanic level.
I hope this makes sense, my brain is not with me today. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this class.
Yup, this nanite investment is beyond me. Why not use the cap to say "You can take THIS many ITEMS of those types"? Just say, "At level 1, you can have 2 Major Forms in any combination of weapons and cybernetics". So EITHER 2 weapons OR 2 cybernetics OR 1 weapon and 1 cybernetic. Why go through the whole UPB thingy, when you can simplify the process? I think this makes it simpler. Kind of the same way Prototype Mechanics can get a free weapon or armor so long as the mechanic is level 1 or the weapon/armor is 2 levels lower than your mechanic level.
I hope this makes sense, my brain is not with me today. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this class.
Maybe we all need to make sure we're on the same page.
Whenever you have an hour to spare as a Nanocyte, you can adjust your nanite investment. Lets say you have a Squad Machine Gun you looted off of someone that wronged you (or you wronged them, whatever). You can break that down, and your Nanite Investment is now 2060, the amount of credits that item is worth.
Now any time you pick a new Major or Minor form for your gear array, it can be anything with a cost of 2060 or less.
During that hour of munching on the Machine Gun, you could also take up to 206 UPBs from your pocket (which is 10% of the item's value), and add it into the Nanite Investment process, in order to make your Nanite investment 2266. Meaning any time you pick a new Major or Minor form, it must have a cost of 2266 or less.
Whenever you change your Nanite investment, you discard any other Nanite investment you might have had.
Maybe we all need to make sure we're on the same page.
Whenever you have an hour to spare as a Nanocyte, you can adjust your nanite investment. Lets say you have a Squad Machine Gun you looted off of someone that wronged you (or you wronged them, whatever). You can break that down, and your Nanite Investment is now 2060, the amount of credits that item is worth.
Now any time you pick a new Major or Minor form for your gear array, it can be anything with a cost of 2060 or less.
During that hour of munching on the Machine Gun, you could also take up to 206 UPBs from your pocket (which is 10% of the item's value), and add it into the Nanite Investment process, in order to make your Nanite investment 2266. Meaning any time you pick a new Major or Minor form, it must have a cost of 2266 or less.
Whenever you change your Nanite investment, you discard any other Nanite investment you might have had.
There is also the minor issue of only being to buy new forms when you level up and get a new one, or after 5th level when you can start swapping.
Destroying the squad machine gun nets you no immediate benefit and, if you later find a more valuable item, is completely wasted (along with your pocketful of UPBs). Party: "wait you begged for this thing; you're saying that you overwrote it two encounters later? We could have sold it. Toby cpuld have bought a grenade!"
What we're saying is that the whole investment mechanic adds a level of complexity to the class that quite frankly is not welcome to me, and I fear could lead to the class being unpopular at tables.
Yes, I think it makes sense. There are already a few ways for classes to keep one foot off the loot treadmill, at least for a while. I'm not sure if one more is all good or all bad or even the same category.
A technomancer doesn't have to spend a dime on armor once they pick up junk armor and the cantrip (if they want..it falls off after level 9 I guess). A solarian or unarmed fighter or vanguard, as previously mentioned, is competent without investment. A qi adept doesn't need a gun.
And a nanocyte only gets to have one item at a time at high level, regardless, so they're not completely divorced from spending.
I guess that's why I'm curious about the intent. What's the problem that the class ability is trying to solve. Is it to be flexible (I'm not sure they succeed)? Is it to partially step off the loot train (definitely don't succeed IMO). Is it to be a loot sponge or another possible way to get value out of the bits of people your murderhobos leave behind (I don't think so?).
I dunno. It's really hard to suggest 'this is a better way to get where you wanted to go' if I think you're driving to Canada and you're really heading for the south pole.
It does let them be flexible. They can have a Giant Ice Throwing Hand cannon worth 100,000 credits tossing out cold damage at long range. They can also have a 100,000 credit fire blast heavy weapon to deal with AoE packs. They can also have a 100,000 credit melee reach weapon to deal with enemies that get too close. And they can also have a handy 100,000 credit out-of-combat technological item to be used when enemies don't need their HP to be lowered. All with the same 100,000 credit investment.
For that kind of versatility, any other class would need to split funds between all of these different kinds of things. A Nanocyte can have many expensive items at the ready, albeit one at a time. (Though I agree that it would be nice if you could change out your Gear Array Minor/Major forms more often).
There is also the minor issue of only being to buy new forms when you level up and get a new one, or after 5th level when you can start swapping.
Destroying the squad machine gun nets you no immediate benefit and, if you later find a more valuable item, is completely wasted (along with your pocketful of UPBs). Party: "wait you begged for this thing; you're saying that you overwrote it two encounters later? We could have sold it. Toby cpuld have bought a grenade!"
What we're saying is that the whole investment mechanic adds a level of complexity to the class that quite frankly is not welcome to me, and I fear could lead to the class being unpopular at tables.
I will agree that the inflexibility of changing your Gear Arrays is a little disappointing. I'm not opposed to the idea of the Nanite investment, but you are 'stuck' with sub-optimal choices for quite a while.
If there was a way to 'rebuild' your Gear Arrays in total like you can re-build your drone as a mechanic, I feel like that would solve a lot of the issues.
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Maybe we all need to make sure we're on the same page.
Whenever you have an hour to spare as a Nanocyte, you can adjust your nanite investment. Lets say you have a Squad Machine Gun you looted off of someone that wronged you (or you wronged them, whatever). You can break that down, and your Nanite Investment is now 2060, the amount of credits that item is worth.
Now any time you pick a new Major or Minor form for your gear array, it can be anything with a cost of 2060 or less.
During that hour of munching on the Machine Gun, you could also take up to 206 UPBs from your pocket (which is 10% of the item's value), and add it into the Nanite Investment process, in order to make your Nanite investment 2266. Meaning any time you pick a new Major or Minor form, it must have a cost of 2266 or less.
Whenever you change your Nanite investment, you discard any other Nanite investment you might have had.
There is also the minor issue of only being to buy new forms when you level up and get a new one, or after 5th level when you can start swapping.
Destroying the squad machine gun nets you no immediate benefit and, if you later find a more valuable item, is completely wasted (along with your pocketful of UPBs). Party: "wait you begged for this thing; you're saying that you overwrote it two encounters later? We could have sold it. Toby cpuld have bought a grenade!"
What we're saying is that the whole investment mechanic adds a level of complexity to the class that quite frankly is not welcome to me, and I fear could lead to the class being unpopular at tables.
I agree with this. They need a way to mitigate finding some gear that's 500 Cr more expensive, AND a way to add or change forms during an adventure and not just a level up.
One way to kill two birds with one stone would to let the nanocyte add whatever gear they eat to their list of forms (and forget an already known form).
Another would be the ability to vomit up eaten weapons when eating a new one, so they can be sold for 10% and the nanocyte eats a new one that can be vomited later.
I agree with this. They need a way to mitigate finding some gear that's 500 Cr more expensive, AND a way to add or change forms during an adventure and not just a level up.
One way to kill two birds with one stone would to let the nanocyte add whatever gear they eat to their list of forms (and forget an already known form).
Another would be the ability to vomit up eaten weapons...
I could definitely get behind a temporary holding cell the item is in while it's part of your gear array.
I could see some possible changes:
1) When you re-invest, you get back the UPBs from the prior investment
2) Minor/Major forms can be retrained at each level
3) Minor/Major forms can be chosen with values higher than your investment (still can't make them until you raise investment) as long as your choices are in level capI feel like the last one is really important, as it is very awkward to have something in game ("I eat this item") have to be timed perfectly with something out of game ("I leveled up, so need to choose forms") in order to work out correctly. It also would help with generating a higher-than-level-1 Nanocyte (a problem I'm having atm trying to playtest), because when you do that there's no way to cleanly pick forms at intermediary levels because the only investment you have is from your starting credits. Therefore, for both mechanical and flavor reasons, I think 3 should be strongly considered.
Except it's extremely unsatisfying to have a character option that you "had" to pick (because it's ideal gameplay) but can't use until you meet arbitrary conditions (i.e. find a thinger that you can eat).
This is exacerbated because of the fickleness of loot drops. Some adventures have very few, and far between. How great would it feel to choose a gear item higher than your current investment, then not find anything that meets your requirement because you're running around an uninhabited jungle planet with no tech gear to loot?
I suppose, but how does that not become an issue in the current setup too? You're a tech-based character, I don't really have a problem with you being weak if you spend an extended time in a place with no tech, honestly.
Except it's extremely unsatisfying to have a character option that you "had" to pick (because it's ideal gameplay) but can't use until you meet arbitrary conditions (i.e. find a thinger that you can eat).
This is exacerbated because of the fickleness of loot drops. Some adventures have very few, and far between. How great would it feel to choose a gear item higher than your current investment, then not find anything that meets your requirement because you're running around an uninhabited jungle planet with no tech gear to loot?
My point is that it doesn't make sense to base the character mechanics around something like this at all.
Make the limit an arbitrary credit amount, affected by knacks, faculty powers, feats, and maybe a designated item (like a solarian crystal, in that it it's a class-specific enhancer). Make it self-contained, so the character doesn't take a much larger hit in survivalist scenarios (which are supposed to be big this year in Society).
Even if not in the wilderness, sometimes campaigns just don't drop much loot or, most of the loot that is dropped in lower level minion gear.
I suppose, but how does that not become an issue in the current setup too? You're a tech-based character, I don't really have a problem with you being weak if you spend an extended time in a place with no tech, honestly.
Except it's extremely unsatisfying to have a character option that you "had" to pick (because it's ideal gameplay) but can't use until you meet arbitrary conditions (i.e. find a thinger that you can eat).
This is exacerbated because of the fickleness of loot drops. Some adventures have very few, and far between. How great would it feel to choose a gear item higher than your current investment, then not find anything that meets your requirement because you're running around an uninhabited jungle planet with no tech gear to loot?
My point is that it doesn't make sense to base the character mechanics around something like this at all.
Make the limit an arbitrary credit amount, affected by knacks, faculty powers, feats, and maybe a designated item (like a solarian crystal, in that it it's a class-specific enhancer). Make it self-contained, so the character doesn't take a much larger hit in survivalist scenarios (which are supposed to be big this year in Society).
This seems like a feature to me. When the party doesn't get much loot, you don't have a gun that outclasses the rest of the party. It's not supposed to be a free scaling weapon like Vanguard and Solarion.
I just had a different set of questions occur to me as well. As GM's we should be encouraging and rewarding creativity. If a nanocyte was, dunno, perhaps chained to a wall and needed to escape, could he spend an hour decomposing the chains? They could be considered unattended improvised weapons. In fact, basically anything you can lift is an improvised weapon, so can he break through the bars of the door?
If he can, does he lose his nanite investment completely? Obviously yes, but now you're kicking the player for being creative. That doesn't seem desirable either.
Improvised weapons are things that aren't weapons that you use as weapons. "It's an improvised weapon" doesn't let you slap a fusion seal on it either. Tech items count, though, so various high-tech restraints sound like fair game.
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Honestly, I really like the imagery of the nanocyte taking an item and their nanites come pouring it and eating the tech item. Or the nanocyte dumping a bunch of UPB's on a table, letting them out and going, "Time to eat, my friends!"
But for my it seems weird to have the investment value reset. I'm more in favor of a max value equal for their investment equal to some percentage of the WBL table (say 50%) and you can get to that value either by feeding the nanites straight UPBs and get the full value or the nanites can eat a piece of gear and get 10% of its value.
I also like the scenes that play out in my head of the nanocyte learning that piece of gear they just ate as a form, but they forget how to do an older piece of gear.
And like Zilvar 2k11 said, we shouldn't punish the players for being creative. Plus just imagine doing a mystery game with a nanocyte as your villain...
Also, if your investment didn't reset, just imagine the nanocyte saboteur!
So short version:
I like a max investment value for level
I like being able to increase that value rather than have to replace it all at once
I like being able to trade out a previously known form with a piece of gear you just found.
Improvised weapons are things that aren't weapons that you use as weapons. "It's an improvised weapon" doesn't let you slap a fusion seal on it either. Tech items count, though, so various high-tech restraints sound like fair game.A wonderfully, creativity-smashing, rules-based answer. It's not a weapon, so you can't dissolve it. You can take apart the most complicated of laser weapons, but a simple chain is beyond you unless you bought it with a wooden handle and some spiky bits on the end.
I am uncomfortable with that answer.
I'd let you use your con modifier on a strength check to break the chains and flavor it as your nanites weakening it if you succeed, but... yeah.
Wait... do mundane tools count as tech items?
Improvised weapons are things that aren't weapons that you use as weapons. "It's an improvised weapon" doesn't let you slap a fusion seal on it either. Tech items count, though, so various high-tech restraints sound like fair game.A wonderfully, creativity-smashing, rules-based answer. It's not a weapon, so you can't dissolve it. You can take apart the most complicated of laser weapons, but a simple chain is beyond you unless you bought it with a wooden handle and some spiky bits on the end.
I am uncomfortable with that answer.
That's fair. I was uncomfortable with "I can eat it because it's an improvised weapon", so my response was based on how I'd handle somebody trying to rules lawyer that. I'm sorry for being passive-aggressive about it; I should have split off my response to the rules-lawyer section from a response to the underlying question.
If somebody at my table asks if they can dissolve the chain in an hour despite it not being a tech item, absolutely. Especially if the captors don't know that the character is a Nanocyte, or if I forgot to describe them taking precautions. And I'm certainly not gonna wipe out the cache, regardless.
That's fair. I was uncomfortable with "I can eat it because it's an improvised weapon", so my response was based on how I'd handle somebody trying to rules lawyer that. I'm sorry for being passive-aggressive about it; I should have split off my response to the rules-lawyer section from a response to the underlying question.
If somebody at my table asks if they can dissolve the chain in an hour despite it not being a tech item, absolutely. Especially if the captors don't know that the character is a Nanocyte, or if I forgot to describe them taking precautions. And I'm certainly not gonna wipe out the cache, regardless.
You're right. The snark was uncalled for on my part. Sorry.
I feel like the nanocyte is going to be the poster child for attempts at 'creative solutions to breaking and entering' and similar problems. I foresee a lot of table talk about it.
I think taking an hour to eat something is a pretty reasonable balancing factor; if you're given an hour of unfettered access to a security point, there are all kinds of tools you can use.
As I posted elsewhere, I think the best solution is to just get rid of Nanite Investment entirely. The character chooses forms based on item level, done. They don't need to "pay" for their character ability gear mimicry anymore than a Solarian needs to "pay" for their Solar Weapon.
If you are especially worried about balance, maybe downgrade the level requirement to "Equal to your level" rather than "Equal to your level +1". So a first level Nanocyte could only choose level 1 gear, and not jump ahead to the more expensive stuff for free.
I disagree on this. Solarian and Vanguard don't get such a wide variety of options. And, it's a fixed feature; they can't rotate between options.
Nanocyte should definitely not get all that free, and I wouldn't want it nerfed down to the free level.
They don't get as many options, but the Solarian and Vanguard also don't have a sacrifice *other character abilities* in order to use their innate weapon. The Nanocyte does- by using Gear Array, they have to forgo using Sheath or Cloud Array, and all the various useful tricks that go with them ( which even a very specialized Nanocyte will pretty much have to take, from my reading of ability choices taken vs available ). Also unlike the Solarian and Vanguard, their innate weapon doesn't upgrade as consistently ( effectively only every several levels, rather than every level ).As I posted elsewhere, I think the best solution is to just get rid of Nanite Investment entirely. The character chooses forms based on item level, done. They don't need to "pay" for their character ability gear mimicry anymore than a Solarian needs to "pay" for their Solar Weapon.
If you are especially worried about balance, maybe downgrade the level requirement to "Equal to your level" rather than "Equal to your level +1". So a first level Nanocyte could only choose level 1 gear, and not jump ahead to the more expensive stuff for free.
I disagree on this. Solarian and Vanguard don't get such a wide variety of options. And, it's a fixed feature; they can't rotate between options.
Nanocyte should definitely not get all that free, and I wouldn't want it nerfed down to the free level.
Right, but Vanguard doesn't have the option of switching to those other options; it just doesn't get those other features at all. Solarian's other features are mostly taking up those same slots as knacks.
You're taking a feature from "spend one time to have access to multiple options" and turning it into "don't spend anything, and get free scaling weapons".
Or, put another way: Vanguard gets a free melee weapon for 1d3+Con; Solarian gets a free melee weapon for 1d4+Str; Nanocyte would get a free melee weapon for 1d12+Str and a free ranged weapon for 1d10, even capping it at level.
The investment is clearly here to get wealth out of the game, in exchange for versatility. Why not, no issues there.
The way it's handled seems way clunkier than it needs to be though.
Just let me eat UPBs or tech stuff up to a maximum budget dependant on my level. Kinda like the way old 3.5 Artificier had a budget - not the best comparison as his was free, but the Nanocyte doesn't actually spend theirs, so it balances out.
As it is, it's just "look through all the resources, isolate what's on your level, find the most expensive thing there is in that pile, buy it (or craft it), eat it". Not fun.
Because crafting a thing only to deconstruct it immediately is the best thing you can do if you're out in the black with only your ship/workshop and a sack of UPBs - and that's not weird.
(Alternatively, fight your party so you can gobble the good loot.)
That said, the more I think about it the less I'm interested in gear-arraying weapons.
They're not better, and you can't exactly slap fusions on them. Most of the knacks that touch on them also work with either the cloud or the sheath and might be better with those, plus I don't know that the weapon specific ones are the best use of one's options.
A couple forms memorized for emergencies, sure. But I'm way more interested in the cyber and minor forms. Having access to all the various tools and tricks of those seems, to me, like it could be more valuable than the improvised weaponmaking.
Not that that's a good thing, necessarily.
I feel like the nanocyte thematically should get something from "eating unwanted items". It's just that they should not need to specifically target the very best stuff.
This should probably work like selling stuff without needing to have someone to sell it to.
So your nanite investment is:
1) The full value of the best thing you've eaten.
2) 10% of everything else.
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I feel like the nanocyte thematically should get something from "eating unwanted items". It's just that they should not need to specifically target the very best stuff.
This should probably work like selling stuff without needing to have someone to sell it to.
So your nanite investment is:
1) The full value of the best thing you've eaten.
2) 10% of everything else.
Personally, I like that idea, BUT I think tracking that would be a little difficult. Maybe, instead have the nanite investment be:
1) 10% of anything you have consumed
2) OR the full value of an item if it is greater than your current investment
3) But cannot be greater than the maximum amount for your level (see the Clarification: Creating Nanocytes Above 1st level thread)
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I like the way it is now. Read everything and I still see it being so easy to deal with. If playing APs with same GM, homebrew with same GM, or SFS with chronicle sheets, a nanocyte can state when and where they "ate" something for their pool. This can easily be checked. Simple bookkeeping as did player have item and then did they spend the extra.
Most of what I have heard, seen, and read is that people normally are not sporting the best weapons unlike armor where want to upgrade as soon as able. One thing about this though is I do agree it would be very understandable that the nanite investment had a bonus form that was the weapon/item used for the investment.