rabidradioactiveraccoons's page

Nyerkh wrote:

Sure, why not? Nothing in Manifold Array prevents it.

That said, there's downsides to that.
Double/triple Sheath is flat-out not going to stack with itself.
But you could have double Clouds - presumably in different squares as doubling up is, again, likely not going to have much benefits.
Or triple Gear Arrays, the downside here being the effective level loss : you don't want Gear to be your -8 array, unless you've made sure to keep low level forms specifically for that purpose.

I honestly thought that you selected one array as primary, a second as secondary and the last one as tertiary, such as "Gear 1st, Sheath 2nd and Cloud 3rd", not "Gear 1st, Gear 2nd and Shealth 3rd".

To quote the Playtest,

You can create and sustain multiple clouds or pieces of gear simultaneously, though you can only sustain a single sheath array at a time.

rabidradioactiveraccoons wrote:

For someone who clearly loves the Gear Array as much as you do, you continue display shockingly little knowledge about how Gear Array works.

It's a playtest, so nothing is set.

But the playtest rules are freely available to read and you clearly need to thoroughly go over them several times. For example:

highlights the issue that a Nanocyte in Gear Array cannot form more than 1 form. Can I get at least 1 form per 6 levels or something?

If you were to review the playtest (or several previous responses in this thread), you would see that at level 7, the Nanocyte gets Manifold Array as a class feature, allowing them to form a secondary Array that calculates its effects by [current level] - 4. At level 15, Manifold Array grants a tertiary Array with effects equal to [current level] - 8. This allows for multiple Gear Arrays to be used, thus allowing for multiple Major Forms to be used.

As I said, since it applies to augmentations, you shoudl be able to form more than 1. Yes, all your major forms can be weapons, but since augmentations are eligible, you should be able to form 2, 3 or even 7 forms at once.

You make it sound like a Nanocyte can just wish a weapon or an augmentation out of its nanites.

"I'll take a Dermal Plating, and tomorrow, I'll take an Optical Laser."

Doesn't the Nanocyte need to break down and assimilate these augmentations in the first place? If I must pay with credits for these, you can make sure that I'd like to form them all at once.

For someone who clearly loves the Gear Array as much as you do, you continue display shockingly little knowledge about how Gear Array works.

A Nanocyte DOES wish a weapon or augmentation out of their nanites, so long as they have eaten enough UPBs to afford them. When they choose new Major Forms or swap out old Major Forms, they can choose any technological weapon or augmentation with a level equal or less than to their new level + 1 and with a price equal to or less than their current Nanite Investment. As long it is within those two parameters, it doesn't matter whether or not they are proficient, whether they have previously absorbed it, or even if they would realistically know it exists. Same with Minor Forms, you don't need to have absorbed them to choose them.

With the way Nanite Investment works, if you paid for and ate all the augmentations and weapons you formed, you are wasting all credits spent on anything other than the most expensive one. At that point, it would be more effective to just buy and install the augmentations you wanted instead of using a Major Form on them

I imagine the reason there's no sniper knack is because unlike heavy weapons (where you can mitigate the strength requirements) and special weapons (where you can mitigate the fact that the feat only gives you one special weapon), sniper weapons don't have a lot to remove without just stealing Operative's shtick and reducing the aiming requirements.

I'm less interested in whatever extra bonus might be given and more interested in the Proficiency + Specialization + Form Swap from a Knack granting Sniper Weapons proficiency rather than just taking the feat. It's a small thing that can make a major difference.

It seems pretty clear to me. When you form it, you can spend a surge on option A to get it. You can spend a surge on option B to get it. The two are independent, so you can do neither, one, or both. There's no need for a limit; you're limited by how many abilities you can actually take that add surge options.

You will have to pardon my exceedingly poor reading comprehension (likely the cause of my original question), but I do not actually understand what your answer is.

Several Knacks and Faculties require a Nanite Surge when forming an Array; Cloud and Sheath already have benefits for being Surged. Does the Surge spent on a Knack or Faculty also count as a Surge for the base Array? If not, is it replacing the benefit completely or can you use multiple Surges when forming an Array? Is there a limit to the amount of Surges that can be spent on a single Array?

JiCi wrote:

Also, if Heavy Weapon Edge grants you Heavy Weapon Proficiency with extra damage, then Swarm Strike should grant you Improved Unarmed Strike.

You're comparing a second-level feat with a sixth-level feat. I'd rather have Swarm Strike stay second level (so that I can build around Con-to-accuracy) and outsource some of its power to a feat, rather than have it moved to sixth level just so they can balance it against Heavy Weapon Edge.

It's been brought up in a couple other threads, but Heavy Weapons Edge would be better served as a 2nd-level Knack or have Esoteric and Heavy Weapons Edge merged into a single, 2nd-levle Knack:

Weapon Edge: Choose from Heavy Weapons, Sniper Weapons, or 2 Special Weapons. You gain proficiency with the chosen weapons. At 3rd level, you gain weapon specialization with the chosen weapons just as if your class granted proficiency. When you gain this Knack, you can replace one Major Form with a weapon from the chosen category.
You can select this knack multiple times, each time choosing a different weapon category or 2 new Special Weapons. If Heavy Weapons are chosen, you add your Constitution modifier to your Strength score for the purpose of wielding heavy weapons formed from your gear array without penalty.

Also, after reviewing the feat and the Knack, Swarm Strike doesn't necessarily need to grant IUS as much as needs to incorporate it. Allow Swarm Strike to threaten squares and give it damage scaling; any other unarmed attacks by the Nanocyte are unaffected. If the Nanocyte has IUS, they can use Swarm Strike even if all hands are occupied. Nanocytes then have a reason to choose IUS without needing it to keep Swarm Strike's damage at parity.

But having more than 2 skills being enhanced by a bonus is too much? Yeah right... slap Versatile Nanites into the base Sheath Array, so you have more than 4 skills to choose from, and have that bonus applied to more than 2 skills every time the bonus increases. That means that you get a bonus to 3 skills at 3rd level, 4 skills at 7th, 5 skills at 11th, and so on.

I really don't not picture a Nanocyte constantly resetting its Sheath Array because it needs 2 different skills every 2 minutes...

Also, if Heavy Weapon Edge grants you Heavy Weapon Proficiency with extra damage, then Swarm Strike should grant you Improved Unarmed Strike.

Esoteric Edge is borderline useless, because 1) it doesn't apply to Sniper Weapons and 2) there is no useful special weapon, only shurikens and bows, and no you cannot copy an arrow in order to provide unlimited ammunition.

Resetting your Sheath Array is a move action and if you're doing it for the skill bonuses, it's probably out of combat. I don't see the issue.

Heavy Weapon Edge doesn't grant extra damage unless you are counting the weapon specialization, in which case it is the same as if it were a base proficiency. The additional bonus is adding Con to your Str for determining what heavy weapons you can wield without penalty.

Swarm Strike could use the IUS though.

Also, while it doesn't make sense for Esoteric Edge, a Knack about Special Weapons, to apply to Sniper Weapons, a knack that granted Proficiency and Specialization in Sniper Weapons would probably be a better replacement.

* Ditch Esoteric Edge and Heavy Weapon Edge, and just have you be able to form weapons if you are proficient. You have the Heavy Weapon Proficiency feat? You can form heavy weapons.

Dracomicon covered most of the issues with your suggestions, but this is beyond a downgrade. Esoteric Edge is incredibly underwhelming due to a general lack of special weapons to even choose from, but it is also effectively giving you three feats. It give proficiency with two special weapons and weapon specialization for Special Weapons. Heavy Weapon Edge is worth two feats (proficiency + specialization) but for a much more useful category on top of the Con bonus for handling the strength requirements.

Both knacks you mention also let you change a Major Form; Esoteric Edge lets you do so 3 levels earlier that you normally would be able to. Granted, the major form has to be a special weapon, but that is theoretically a level 3 weapon when all your Major Forms would normally be stuck at Level 1 (there are no level 3 special weapons, but that is beside the point). Heavy Weapon Edge, though only available after you can start swapping Major Forms, is still an additional Major Form swap, which theoretically means another more level-appropriate weapon.

rabidradioactiveraccoons wrote:

That said, just the ability to have apply fusion seals without the wait time when forming a weapon would work better instead of having to create a new kind of item to fix it.

While your idea is good, remember that this class is coming out in a whole book of tech-based gear and abilities. What you're saying is kinda like saying a Vanguard should just be able to take a move action to get a bonus to a particular enemy's attacks, instead of adding shields to the Character Operations Manual. Techno-fusions very well could be a thing introduced in that book. Remember that Sufficiently Advanced Technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Best case scenario for hypothetical techno-seals: they are a template you apply to fusion seals

Worst case scenario for hypothetical techno-seals: An utterly redundant line of items that further complicate the Nanocytes bookkeeping.

My point being, fusion seals already exist, there is no point in reinventing them.

Fusions are trickier; I wonder if you could make like Adaptive Biochains for cybernetic/biotech augmentations and have fusions that are entirely technological for a greater cost (which would then be handled with the investment mechanic), or have tech "fusion seals" and allow you to form weapons around them without waiting 24 hours for them to take.

There is nothing stopping you from slapping a fusion seal onto your Gear Array if you decide to keep one Form for over 24 hours; it's kind of a waste of time and active Arrays, but your only prohibited from making magical and hybrid items and equipment, not from using them on your Array.

That said, just the ability to have apply fusion seals without the wait time when forming a weapon would work better instead of having to create a new kind of item to fix it. Maybe require a full-action instead of a move to add a seal when forming a weapon.

If anything, I actually suggest Gear Array gets a buff, given how it's mainly "spend normal wealth by level towards a weapon, get an single extra backup weapon you'd care about for free" that prevents you from using or nerfs most of the options of the class if you're using either your primary or backup weapons.

A Knack that let you add Fusions Seals to your Major Forms when you make them might help. Sort of like how they automatically load themselves with ammo/batteries from your inventory, any Fusion Seal in your inventory could be applied to the Form and immediately start functioning (rather than the normal 24 hour wait).

I separated the forms and knacks based on which array they depend on primarily. Discoporation, Infestation, and Redirection all kinda force the cloud, Obliteration forces Gear, and only Infestation marginally supports Sheath. Luckily, the nanocyte isn't forced to only use one faculty. There are very few knacks for the sheath as well, not really any versatility to it.

I tried to make my nanocyte Sheath focused, because it looked like the worst build (ie, prolly gonna be the least test played) They are a defensive healer that punches stuff. Still kinda reliant on the cloud...

Discorporation actually has support for Sheath. Swarm Shadow essentially turns you into a Sheath Array for your ally, including all Sheath Knacks you may have taken. It is kind of an odd choice for a capstone to the Faculty and comes online way too late to really help Sheath be a viable focus, but it is there.

[qoute="JiCi"]The Nanocyte's main gimmick is the Gear Array. It's being able to shape any item he can from his nanites in a blink of an eye. The other two arrays feel like secondary features tacked in for good measures.

"Hey, don't worry, I'm unarmed!"
*whips up a pistol and shoots*
"Sykes! Sorry :P"

That's the general idea. There's no reason to NOT use the other 2 arrays unless they are equally viable combat wise.

I'm almost tempted to suggest the Gear Array as a constant activated feature for the Nanocyte, and being able to switch from Sheath or Cloud Array only.[/qoute]
People are focusing a lot on the Gear Array, but you can build a Nanocyte that never uses their Major Forms and still have a viable character. The Nanocyte has full BAB, high Con, and solid starting proficiencies; they don't need their Gear Array to be a good combatant, especially if you go with a melee-build, which can benefit more from Cloud or Sheath than it does Gear.

Also Manifold Array is already a class feature and the level penalties on your secondary and tertiary arrays aren't that bad (unless you are using it for a Major Form).

[qoute="JiCi"]You're mentionning regular gear. You are technically telling me that the Nanocyte needs to spend credits for his forms AND his non-form items. That's like telling your Solarian to buy a melee weapon when he's already wielding a Solar Weapon. Ok, fine, there are situations that regular gear is needed, if energy damage is required, but not 99% of the time.[/qoute]
Until Manifold Array comes on line, you only have one form at a time; you can't rely on your Gear Array for everything. If you aren't focused on your Gear Array, you can even have level appropriate weapons! And if they don't fix or remove Nanite Investment, it may be the only way to have level appropriate weapons!

[qoute="JiCi"]Swarm Strike needs to be "Nanite Surged" in order to work, it doesn't just replace your unarmed strikes while you're in Sheath Array, as it must be activated. So you need the knack, the feat AND a surge use to make Swarm Strike usable and viable.[/qoute]
You only need to use the Surge when you form the Array. Given that the Sheath Array is the one Array that can never end on its own, you can theoretically live in a Swarm-Striked Sheath Array.

Additionally, the Nanocyte isn't particularly hungry for Surges, especially if you take Abundant Nanites. The amount of times you need to use a Surge is surprisingly low, though you are given a lot of opportunities to Surge for additional benefits.

Still feels like a missed opportunity to give the Sheath Array better Faculty support and a missed opportunity to let the Nanocyte punch parasitic nanites into people.

I am 100% in favor of "Each player chooses their own action". Yes, it means they have to cooperate, but that is both a good idea for players *anyway*, and also totally in genre for the Multi-Pilot Super Robot genre.

Even if each player chooses their action, that still leaves the mech's base move action unaccounted for.

In a Mech with multiple Operators, who determines the Mech's actions? Operators can take a full action to grant the Mech actions, but I didn't notice anywhere that stated how the use of those actions is determined. Is there one Operator who is in control? Do Operators get to decide on how their contributed action is used? Do all Operators have to agree on a course of action?
No matter what way I cut it, I can't see a way for more than one player to operate a Mech without drastically slowing down the game or creating inter-player conflict.

rabidradioactiveraccoons wrote:

Brew Bird wrote:

Maybe this was discussed somewhere else, but the fact that the Nanocyte can only learn new forms on level-up and only if they already have enough of a nanite investment leads to a weird consequence.

When leveling up, since you won't yet have had a chance to 'eat' an item of your new level+1, you'll have, at most, a nanite investment equal to the price of an item of your old level+1. Though you'll be able to choose forms of your new level +1, at higher levels, it's unlikely you'll have the necessary investment.

Perhaps this is by design, so that more expensive items like weapons will be effectively restricted to your level, while cheaper utility items can be level+1, but it still feels like a roundabout way to implement the restriction.

It seems like it would be simpler to restrict Major Forms to your level and Minor Forms to level+1 if that was the case, but that solution is so simple that I can't bring myself to believe the reasoning.

Ok, go for this instead: you simply go of the limited number of items you can shape instead of having to take in account the price of each item.

Here's a REAL problem: what about items that count as BOTH a weapon and an augmentation. For instance, a Weaponized Prostethis can have an integrated weapon. Does it count as an augmentation, a weapon or both?

A Weaponized Prosthesis is an augmentation; it has slots for an integrated weapon, but the Prosthesis itself is not a weapon. Unless there is some clarification concerning integrated weapons, weapon modifications/accessories, etc., it seems like a Weaponized Prosthesis form would require you to integrate a separate weapon every time you formed it; which makes it seem like a really bad choice for a Major Form.

EDIT: Also, weapons and augmentations both take up Major Form slots, it would not be unreasonable to rule that an augmentation that is also a weapon is a single Major Form, as whether you count it as an augmentation or as a weapon it will still be Major.

Rereading the description Malignant Mist, I've noticed it lacks what seems to be an obvious synergy with the Sheath Array. As is stands, it is purely a reactive defense mechanism, but unarmed strikes (Swarm Strike in particular) and/or natural weapons seem like they should be vectors for the infection. Sheath Array is already lacking in Faculty support and offensive options, expanding its use with Infestation seems like a step towards remedying that problem.

Maybe this was discussed somewhere else, but the fact that the Nanocyte can only learn new forms on level-up and only if they already have enough of a nanite investment leads to a weird consequence.

When leveling up, since you won't yet have had a chance to 'eat' an item of your new level+1, you'll have, at most, a nanite investment equal to the price of an item of your old level+1. Though you'll be able to choose forms of your new level +1, at higher levels, it's unlikely you'll have the necessary investment.

Perhaps this is by design, so that more expensive items like weapons will be effectively restricted to your level, while cheaper utility items can be level+1, but it still feels like a roundabout way to implement the restriction.

It seems like it would be simpler to restrict Major Forms to your level and Minor Forms to level+1 if that was the case, but that solution is so simple that I can't bring myself to believe the reasoning.

Personally, I like that idea, BUT I think tracking that would be a little difficult. Maybe, instead have the nanite investment be:

1) 10% of anything you have consumed
2) OR the full value of an item if it is greater than your current investment
3) But cannot be greater than the maximum amount for your level (see the Clarification: Creating Nanocytes Above 1st level thread)

Given that the table in the Clarification thread is for starting at a level, all the values would have to be shift so that the cap for your investment is equal to the maximum starting investment for the next level.

As I posted elsewhere, I think the best solution is to just get rid of Nanite Investment entirely. The character chooses forms based on item level, done. They don't need to "pay" for their character ability gear mimicry anymore than a Solarian needs to "pay" for their Solar Weapon.

If you are especially worried about balance, maybe downgrade the level requirement to "Equal to your level" rather than "Equal to your level +1". So a first level Nanocyte could only choose level 1 gear, and not jump ahead to the more expensive stuff for free.

This is probably the best solution I've seen.

rabidradioactiveraccoons wrote:

Zilvar2k11 wrote:

rabidradioactiveraccoons wrote:

Anything less than or equal to your current investment only has a 10% return, anything higher bring your investment to the full price of that item. Include a maximum investment total per level.

Your getting the full value out of your juiciest piece of gear while not falling behind in your form selections at level-up

Is this a suggestion, or your reading of the rule, because that's not how I read the rule.

It seems to indicate 'pick an item, dust it and up to 10% of its value worth of upbs and that becomes your new investment'

Suggestion; my reading comprehension is bad, but it isn't that bad. I type so slowly at times that I was responding to QuidEst. Probably should have quoted them

Eek, I apologize. I wasn't intending to imply anything :) I went back and reread it after because your comment left me curious if I had misread it.

So, to the point, I feel like if we sat down and looked at how this might play out over the course of an AP you'd find yourself with a nanite pool that is bigger...maybe even WAY bigger.. than expected at any given level. Would it matter much? I don't know. That's why I suggested a cap.

Even without a cap, Nanocyte forms are still limited to [Nanocyte level]+1. A cap just means there would be a limit to how much treasure they eat per level instead of gorging a level 1. If we were to ignore investment entirely, the Nanocyte would have a head-start each level in terms of gear, but until accessories, fusions, and the like are sorted out, will probably wind up falling behind (or at least evening out with) the others due to having a plain, unmoddified weapon as opposed to the enhanced equipment the rest of the party will get.

I said in another thread it seems very neatly packaged at the moment. It is like buckets of legos. Buy a bucket and play as want. Buy a new bucket as wanted for more options. Using legos since easy to view as taking part or all to build something and then breaking down to build something else.

I also think the pool total after breakdown being new helps stop someone from taking every weapon and piece of tech they find and just growing a huge pool with a minimum of paperwork. Break down item the that is pool # with option of up to another 10% is much better than worrying about tracking the math over multiple levels of adding a bit here and there.

You legos comparison would work better if the Nanocyte could change their forms mid-level or choose forms they don't have enough investment for yet.

As it is, the Nanocyte isn't buying new buckets of LEGOs, it's getting hand-me-down Playmobile sets.

rabidradioactiveraccoons wrote:

Maximum investment per level makes sense and eating anything that costs less than your current investment would have to have diminishing returns, like only its sell value being added, but a cumulative investment value would solve a lot of the problems you listed.

Keeping track of what the most expensive item you ate, and replacing it when you eat something better, in contrast to the stuff only giving 10%, sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare.

No more of a nightmare than keeping track of your normal credits.

Quote:

Also, concerning Society, are other classes prevented from carrying over class features? Because your Gear Array is a class feature, not treasure. Your total investment is gained from eating treasure, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still a class feature. Nanocyte is unique in that I can't think of any other classes that can invest treasure directly into themselves but this seems more like a rules patch for Society than it does for the Nanocyte.

No other class has a class feature that directly costs credits. The soldier can't keep the best rifle he found just because his class is based on shooting rifles.

Essentially this would come down to having to pay money from your per-adventure income into the investment; anything else and it's just another way to keep treasure between scenarios, which is expressly forbidden.

Hence why I said this seems more like a rules patch for the Society than it does for the Nanocyte. The class is an exception to other classes in how it handles treasure, which means that Society would have to come down with a ruling/fix rather than a fix to the Nanocyte.

rabidradioactiveraccoons wrote:

Anything less than or equal to your current investment only has a 10% return, anything higher bring your investment to the full price of that item. Include a maximum investment total per level.

Your getting the full value out of your juiciest piece of gear while not falling behind in your form selections at level-up

Is this a suggestion, or your reading of the rule, because that's not how I read the rule.

It seems to indicate 'pick an item, dust it and up to 10% of its value worth of upbs and that becomes your new investment'

Suggestion; my reading comprehension is bad, but it isn't that bad. I type so slowly at times that I was responding to QuidEst. Probably should have quoted them

Maximum investment per level makes sense and eating anything that costs less than your current investment would have to have diminishing returns, like only its sell value being added, but a cumulative investment value would solve a lot of the problems you listed.

Also, concerning Society, are other classes prevented from carrying over class features? Because your Gear Array is a class feature, not treasure. Your total investment is gained from eating treasure, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still a class feature. Nanocyte is unique in that I can't think of any other classes that can invest treasure directly into themselves but this seems more like a rules patch for Society than it does for the Nanocyte.

Anything less than or equal to your current investment only has a 10% return, anything higher bring your investment to the full price of that item. Include a maximum investment total per level.
Your getting the full value out of your juiciest piece of gear while not falling behind in your form selections at level-up

I came to many of the same conclusions and, in a post I wrote and posted while this was posted, I suggested making it so that instead of setting Nanite Investment at the last items broken down, Nanite Investment is cumulative. This wouldn't fix the severe lag in how long it takes to update your forms, but it would fix the problem of not having a high enough investment at level-up as well as the loot distribution problem (Nanocyte just adds their share to their investment instead of grabbing the most expensive piece).

While I have no experience with Society, Gear Array is a class feature, not actual equipment, so it seems like you'd just record what your Investment is on your sheet and it would carry over between sessions.

EDIT: Just thought of a possible fix to the problem of the lag in upgrading forms, start allowing the replacing/updating forms when at level 3 (or 4 if 3 is too early). That should allow the Nanocyte to keep more of their forms at decent levels.

As written, Nanite Investment is only equal to the price (+ optional 10%) of the last item broken down. Mechanically, this seems odd, as I can theoretically reduce my Nanite Investment by breaking down an item of lesser value; there is no reason to reduce one's Nanite Investment, so the ability to do so is bizarre.
From a less strictly mechanical standpoint, it seems like breaking down an object should add to one's Nanite Investment rather than replace it, as the process is described as breaking down the item into UPBs to add to be used as raw material.

Making it so that breaking down items adds to Nanite Investment instead of replacing it seems like it would make more sense from a mechanical and flavor standpoint. This would also help keep Gear Array forms at an equal level as the Nanocyte levels up by allowing the Nanite Investment to reach a point that it is possible for the Nanocyte to select forms equal to its new level. There is already a maximum item level for forms (Nanocyte level+1), so already having a high Nanite Investment at selection would not allow players to acquire unreasonably leveled items for their Gear Array forms.