I always understood that there's evil, where you intentionally hurt other people for no good reason, and Evil, where you channel sinister forces. Undeath magic is the latter sort of Evil. It might be an evil deed to create zombies (because it damages people's souls or whatever) but even if it isn't, it's still Evil.
You might start out with good intentions, but repeated use of dark magic will corrupt you, and you'll develop a hatred of all life. If you become undead, the same thing will happen to you, only quicker.
This has the advantage for gameplay that PCs can go around casually slaughtering ghouls and liches without having to worry about whether they were redeemable, and it also means that players can't just go undead for a quick power-up. It's less good for telling stories about, say, sexy guilt-ridden vampires, but if you're the GM you can set your own rules to tell your own stories.
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If that's how you'd like it to work, you're free to run a game in your own setting and strike out the word EVIL from the Create Undead ritual. You could even use the No Alignment variant.
But that's not how it works in Paizo's adventures.
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And also i dont agree that creating zombies/skeletons is evil - do simply dont affect souls at all. it is unnatural - yes but not evil until sb is hurt. You dont channel any sinister thing - or at least you dont need to.
I'm rather with you here, I actually rather like the notion that mindless undead and their creation is not so much evil as it is reviled by most societies and possibly many kindly deities. That said, when it comes to the Lost Omens setting, animating even a mindless undead actually does in some way impact the soul which was originally tied to that body. I don't have a source to link where I heard this, but I believe it was because a shard of the original soul is torn off and used a part of the animation process. Indeed, typically the act of animating undead is said to be evil as it inflicts substantial pain and anguish upon the soul of the creature (whether the specimen being animated exhibits any overt signs of having a soul).
Forgive me, I haven't processed the entirety of your original post, yet, but I wish to point out that, as far as Lost Omens goes, I'm not entirely certain that liches do need to sustain their undying body with a constant source of souls. Someone may point out whether I am wrong, but going purely off my own background knowledge, I would consider that more specific to D&D liches than the question of whether the act of becoming a lich requires acts which no non-evil creature could do without becoming evil, which is something I consider a more general lichdom canon. The actual steps are usually depicted as highly unique to each lich (the Whispering Way having more than a few secrets you'd need if you wanted to try) but as I understand, almost if not all of them involve in some way sacrificing a significant number of innocents, possibly consuming their soul power (thus destroying their very essence).
Aside from that, if the act of becoming an lich (or other undead) isn't sufficient to turn you evil, there is the additional matter that, since your body is now powered by the energy of hunger and decay, your own instincts are now bent toward acts of consumption, destruction, and cold detachment, whether you are sapient and in possession of a spirit (and thus, the capacity to change) or not.
All that is not to rule out the possibility of there ever being a non-evil lich--only rather to say that such a creature is most likely very rare indeed, the likes of which is fitting to have a unique story built around them, their struggles with their own lack of moral instinct, and possibly their redemption quest (if we should take the assumption that, at least at one point they were forced to perform overtly evil acts in the course of becoming undead)
P.S. EDIT: As it happens I just remembered that there is something of a formula for lichdom presented in the narrative of the AP I am currently running--Carrion Crown. Spoilers below the cut:
During the events of the AP, the PCs successfully recover the artefact and also save the descendant chosen to be sacrificed, so when they arrive at the top of the tower, the big bad chooses to drink the Carrion Crown elixir, killing himself instantly and raising himself as a lich. Of note, because the elixir was not crafted with him in mind, the process fails. The Whispering Tyrant does not escape and the big bad actually becomes a failed or Forsaken Lich, which normally bleed out energy over the course of a week and then die again, except that the powerful necromantic energy that constantly racks the tower is able to sustain him provided he never leaves (and the heroes don't finish him there).
Nevertheless, you do raise a fascinating question which I feel all too often gets a gut-reaction answer rather than a carefully considered one--why is undeath evil from a meta standpoint, and what justifications are necessary to ensure that it either is or is not considered abominable according to the setting's morality?
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If you're really new, I suggest you search the forum for 2325 threads on undead and alignment that were discussed already. There's really little that can be added to that.
This.
In summary: In Golarion, the act of creating undead is Evil because it wrecks the cycle of souls and will eventually unmake the universe. That's just a narrative component of the setting. If you don't like that, you are welcome to change it for your home games. Good luck. Have fun.
There are no "rules" for creating a lich because it is not something players are supposed to do, it's a story element. The reason the ritual is "different for every creature" is because it's about telling a story. Every other description of creating of undead, either intentional or spontaneously, focuses on corruption of flesh or the spirit, and teh more powerful the more corrupt or sinister. Why would the creation of an ultra-powerful undead be any different?
The bestiary literally talks about how becoming a lich causes the creature to become consumed with selfishness and paranoia, which leads to isolation and greed for power, which then merely reinforces itself.
It's the ultimate "ends justifying the means" argument. But that argument is always used to justify more and more violence and harm and selfishness.
Wow, we've had a lot of "undead can be neutral/good".
We don't have a whole lot about 2e liches yet, so I'm borrowing very heavily from PF1. Some of this stuff may have changed.
- As for "you don't have to kill somebody", it depends. Everybody's got a different way that they require to become a lich, and for a lot of them, it involves stuff like killing loved ones/innocents/etc.. Tar-Baphon's involved getting himself killed by a god as the last step. So presumably, there are some people who could become a lich without murdering people… but they have to embark on research which is likely to turn up the answer, "sacrifice a bunch of people for a chance at immortality". Decent folks are typically going to avoid going down that road in the first place. The example occult ritual from PF1 requires dealing 20d6 to at least one person, and makes it easier and easier the more people you do that to.
It's not a matter of just substituting power like you suggest, though. Lichdom is a very personalized; substitutions tend to result in dying, becoming a very short-lived forsaken lich that burns itself up with magical energy in the next couple days, or only getting part way to becoming a lich (Oracle curse, lich corruption, that sort of thing).
- Creating undead isn't neutral at its core. In Pathfinder, the flow of souls is what keeps reality running. Turning somebody undead- and especially on the level of lichdom- is cosmic pollution that (while individually small) applies to everything. That's in addition to the shorter-term consequences of making something that generally wants to kill people.
You can really easily make creating undead not be evil in your setting, sure; it's a simple change. But in Paizo's setting, it is a pretty serious evil act.
- (Here's a bit of 2e stuff.) Your vital aspect, linked to all your instincts, is normally tied to positive energy. Undeath rips that out and shoves in negative energy, and you get some weird results there that tend to give a solid shove towards evil. Vampires have their thirst messed with, ghouls their hunger, and so on. At a guess, lich has "self-preservation" messed with, contributing to the obsessive isolation.
- You are right that there's no feeding souls to the phylactery. Pathfinder does set liches up as pretty solidly immortal so long as nothing happens to their phylactery or soul.
Overall…
Because somebody needs to be embarking on some very dark magical research to become a lich, with the expectation that they'll need to kill certain kinds of people at the end of it, it's unlikely that a lich is going to start off as something other than evil even if the ritual is one that is less unethical than usual. And because becoming undead is giving them more of a push towards evil than they had before, it's rare that a lich is going to reform posthumously. It's possible, just very unusual.
If you're really new, I suggest you search the forum for 2325 threads on undead and alignment that were discussed already. There's really little that can be added to that.This.
In summary: In Golarion, the act of creating undead is Evil because it wrecks the cycle of souls and will eventually unmake the universe. That's just a narrative component of the setting. If you don't like that, you are welcome to change it for your home games. Good luck. Have fun.
+1. For a setting agnostic point of view, seeing mindless undead as some kind of golem, an argument could possibly be made that raising undead is not evil.
On Golarion, however, it's not the case. Making undead, even mindless undead, is a step towards ending the multiverse. For more details, see Planar Adventures.
Regarding Liches and alignment, I personally think, even on Golarion, any being with intelligence has malleable alignment. Given enough narrative backup, I think liches can theoretically be neutral or even good.
Practically, an overwhelming majority will be evil.
Well, I think that it is relevant to mention that it might be possible to Animate a physical skeleton, or even a corpse, with the animate object spell, and that might be of 'poor taste' but might not qualify as being inherently evil. However, animating the corpse to make and 'undead' skeleton or zombie, by the means of the existing monsters, is by Lost Omens Golarion, considered inherently an Evil act. Messing with the nature of souls and life in commonly accepted bad ways.
So, a lich by standard lich rules in LO Golarion, seems like becoming one is probably steeped in probably evil activities, can they become good after, perhaps, depends on who is in charge of the story.
Now, lets say you create a golem, or clockwork, and bind yourself and your soul to it to get a timeless body? Is that evil. Maybe not, if you aren't getting powered by linking to negative energy and destroying a soul other than your own to do so. So maybe an 'Animated Object' version of a timeless body lich, instead of an 'raise undead' version of lich might be an option. It would be a different type of creature and a different story.
Keep in mind, we know someone can be made a Lich without their own consent. So without consent, it would be hard to insist the creature 'has' to stay evil, just because of their monster traits. But afflictions can affect one's free will, and without free will, they might not have free choice of alignment. Again, it goes to the story that needs to be told.
If you want to make a character who isn't evil, but animates skeletons and other bodies to fight for them, but doesn't want to be tied to evil forces. Don't take the animate dead spell, instead take the animate object spell, and ask your GM to allow you to target bodies, and use the Animate Object spell to animate them.
Perhaps a clockwork lich might have a phylactery, much like an undead one, but perhaps they can get there without the string of likely inherently evil steps to get their soul moved to it.
Alternately, figure out how to move your soul to an android body and bind it to it in such a manner that it won't eventually separate from it. An immortal being like that might be harder to spot among a community of Androids than an undead or clockwork lich would be. Instead you'd have to look for an Inevitable following them around.
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In Golarion, mindless undead are Evil and creating them is generally an Evil act. This is due to both the 'messing with the cycle' thing mentioned above, but also because they are profoundly anti-life and will attack and kill people whenever they see them if left uncontrolled. It's not great.
However, also in Golarion, intelligent undead can be of any Alignment, and some are perfectly nice people.
Liches are another matter. The ritual to become a lich, while not detailed, has been stated by James Jacobs (whose opinion on Golarion canon is generally controlling) to require Evil acts. You must thus do some seriously Evil s@#~ to become a lich, meaning that the vast majority of liches are Evil.
That said, nothing magically keeps them that way, so a lich who was Evil when they became a lich but has since repented is possible. WotR actually includes an ancient lich who you can very specifically redeem, so this, too, is canonical.
As for what Pharasma does with souls...she doesn't play favorites. She sends souls where they are supposed to go. Heck, she even sends Urgathoa the souls of her Clerics, and she and Urgathoa are enemies more bitter than she could ever be towards a mere mortal. Now, most liches aren't gonna go anywhere pleasant, but it's based on their deeds where they go, not anything personal from Pharasma.
would you ever accept that a lich is not evil? someone who has chosen to become a lich I think ultimately becomes beyond forgiveness. There are clearly acts when done and when done in sufficient quantity or with particular malice that will render a person unforgivable, or make it an unreasonable request to grant such person forgiveness, even if that person were genuine in asking for forgiveness.
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The most recent definitive answer
For every person, there is a single specialized and personalized ritual to transform into a lich. If a person is subjected to this ritual, they become a lich, whether they want it or not, and in so doing become evil, whether or not they were evil before.
the process of becoming a lich requires you to undergo several pretty vile and heinous acts. A lich might not start "PURE" evil, but they don't start good. And they end up eeeeevil in the end.
That said, nothing magically keeps them that way, so a lich who was Evil when they became a lich but has since repented is possible. WotR actually includes an ancient lich who you can very specifically redeem, so this, too, is canonical.
I had forgotten about this, but he is also a very special case. And he has been imprisoned for 10,000 years (nothing like hard time to help you find faith). Also it doesn't say he is redeemed, but that after so long he is legitimately willing to try. He still has a very long way to go to even move into CN territory.
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I had forgotten about this, but he is also a very special case. And he has been imprisoned for 10,000 years (nothing like hard time to help you find faith). Also it doesn't say he is redeemed, but that after so long he is legitimately willing to try. He still has a very long way to go to even move into CN territory.That said, nothing magically keeps them that way, so a lich who was Evil when they became a lich but has since repented is possible. WotR actually includes an ancient lich who you can very specifically redeem, so this, too, is canonical.
Sure. I'm just noting that since it's specifically noted as a thing that could happen, liches are canonically capable of redemption in Golarion. It's possible.
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Depends on the setting. (Not 100% sure, but) I think undead are always evil in Golarion. There's definitely D&D settings with neutral and good undead in them. I think mindless undead were considered neutral in some editions, the idea being that they're essentially just magically animated constructs, and without volition one cannot have morals. Golarion however goes with the idea that the animating force of necromancy is evil unto itself.
Counter to the undead are evil in Golarion is that numerous evil creatures get "redeemed" to good in Golarion as well. We have examples of good demons and the like in various APs. So even if all undead are made evil, they could possibly change. In the end, Golarion liches probably all end up CN or CE if they get old enough. There's a surprisingly common tendency for immortal creatures to go insane in this setting.
In the absolute sense...sure...but I feel it would be more fun to make the lich "Redeemed" through less... heartwarming methods. Real redemption for this kind of being is a long, arduous process that relies heavily on exceptionally rare circumstances.
Instead, the 'redeemer' would seek to use a more easily replicated and implemented methods. So "Helm of Opposite Alignment" style, but with far, far worse planning and design, making a mix of step ford smilers and clock work orange.
The lich would be "reeducated" to make it ""good"". Which really means it is barely constrained with poorly planned mind control that simply forces the lich to follow a predetermined set of 'nice' behaviors and rules. While also blasting it with good aligned energy that is supposed to fill it with thoughts of hugs and puppies, but actually is just massive torture as the energy assaults the core of the lich's being.
Obviously, the plot would eventually revolve around the fact that the lich starts to test the seams of the mind control. While the obvious angle for this plot is "what did you think was going to happen?", I think that it would also be good to add an element of sympathy for the 'redeemed' undead. Perhaps the system failed because of the accumulation of raw suffering taking a physical/magical form, and you can show how even evil creatures don't deserve what happened to them.
I think the act explicitly has to be an evil one for the ritual to work. As such, killing an evil person who deserves it wouldn't work, you have to kill an innocent.
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Bear in mind that Golarion also has the rare example of someone being turned into a lich *against their will,* with Arazni, whose mind was shattered by the experience and became evil. So, extreme corner case, a non-evil person became a lich, without committing all sorts of evil herself to get there. (Granted, Geb was committing all sorts of evil to enact the process, I have zero doubt, but still, she's gets a pass initially, even if she did in fact turn evil, and perhaps a tad insane..., for an extended time afterwards.)
So there's precedent. It just should, like a fiend being redeemed, be used (super!) sparingly, and not like the Forgotten Realms, 'Hey, here's this whole faction of good elf liches!' This is a very different setting.
Now, some other setting, in which a society has a small contingent of ancient lich/skeletal champion/mummy type undead that volunteer at the end of their lives to remain behind as guardians of the living from some other monstrous threat, like from the Dark Tapestry, or invading fiends? Sure, that would be neat. They'd likely be super-lawful, having chosen service even past death (not even 'a life of service,' but an *eternity* of service!). It would tie into the many (if not most) non-Western real world cultures that see the spirits of their ancestors as guides and benevolent forces to be invoked and channeled and even given spirit money to in holidays, rituals and festive parades, not shambling things from a George Romero movie.
But Golarion's post-Romero all the way. Spirit, flesh, bone, it's all fine when it's together, but once one portion leaves the building, the rest is wicked and defiled and unsightly. It's like spit. Once it leaves your mouth, it's suddenly 'gross,' but before that? We try not to think about how much of it we swallow each day... :)
A Lich can be non-evil but it requires exceptional circumstances and this redemption must come post-mortem. The ritual that makes you a lich pretty much ensures that you're evil by the time that you finish it (let your imagination go wild, if you like).
So all liches start out evil, and generally since a lich has no one or nothing to care about except themselves and their goals, they stay that way.
However exceptional circumstances can get them to change their ways enough to change their alignment, but it is a significant uphill climb. In canon we have:
Are Irorian mummies still a thing lore-wise or have they been soft-retconned over the years?
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Are Irorian mummies still a thing lore-wise or have they been soft-retconned over the years?
Nope, still a thing. Pharasma objects...but Pharasma is Neutral, not Good. Her objecting doesn't necessarily make something Evil.
Of course, as I understand it Iroran mummies stick around for very specific reasons, not forever, which makes it less of a problem for the universe.