Hroost's page

James Jacobs clarified in a post on his thread that any undead has at least part of a soul animating them. Mindless undead just have a very small part.

This is why Pharasma vehemently opposes the creation of any undead, even mindless ones.

Because the soul energy diverted to create and sustain undead is that much not available to keep the cycle of life and death turning as it should.

Since the cycle is what keeps everything existing and Pharasma is its keeper, you can see why she has a zero undead policy.

thank you for bringing it up, now i think its clear :)

i have found this:

Generally speaking, non-intelligent undead such as
zombies and skeletons possess no souls. Little more than
puppets of flesh and bone, animated by negative energy in a
warped attempt at life, these automatons have no attachment
to the souls of their former owners, and are evil merely due to
the corrupting influence of the Negative Energy Plane.
Intelligent incorporeal undead such as ghosts and
spectres are souls, unwilling to discard their mortal lives due
to unfinished business, lingering concerns, or a desire for
revenge. Shackled by their own passions, negative energy
corrupts their essences, acting like a tether to prevent the
natural progression of the soul toward the Outer Sphere.
Such beings as vampires and liches further exemplify the
condition, being possessed of their original mortal souls,
and still bound to a version of their corporeal form. Twisted,
augmented, and improved by their bond to the Negative
Energy Plane’s power, their embrace of undeath is most
often a willing process, and likewise prevents their souls from
migrating to whatever paradise or hell would have awaited
them originally. - page 3 of The Great Beyond PF1 Chronicles

in such case Both vampires and liches have souls, and having a soul is a key for a consciousness. Am on board with the soul split (cage and body) now, but definately it is not clearly enough written

I have yet to make any concrete decisions regarding what I consider the canon explanation of how a lich's soul cage operates, but it seems to me the simplest answer which accepts both options to be true is that the lich places the majority of its soul trapped within the cage, but draws out a fragment for the purpose of piloting its body around.

In this case, when the lich's body is destroyed, its "soul" flees back to where the rest of the soul is being held within the cage to rebuild its body, while at the same time if the cage is every destroyed, it would have to find its own lost soul wandering the world.

This is the only one logical explanation i had regarding all of this. The afterthought is do all intelligent undead have some portion of soul? That might explain Pharasmas attitude (desecration of the dead body is valid but not affects the flow of souls by any means).

Last observation: this entire issue originates not in BotD but in Bestiary 1. And somehow instead of correcting it (like in case of phylactery and soul cage) they kept it anyway. More than that i have seen an interview with one of the creators (a very well known person in PF community - am super bad with names - apologioes) and he was "all about the liches". So i see the passion, i see a really good product and yet there is a mistake so simple that i just do refuse to accept this. :( i know its probably nothing but...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions on that. Appreciate it!

Am interested only in soul topic, body is quite self explanatory i guess.

Please look at the rejuvenation ability for liches, also the description of soul cage on page 51 of book of the dead (first 2 sentences).
In the last paragraph of its description you have the example of what happens when your soul cage is destroyed and not you.
It contradicts one other.
If your soul is trapped in a SC you do not have one in you, so it does not flee anywhere when you are destroyed (also wording destroyed, not killed = only for undead already).

so basically the main issue is after rebuilding new undead body the soul transfers back to the body? how it works vs degradation after destroying the SC?

I just do not understand it. Please proof me wrong because otherwise its just lazy writting, not worth the best creature in Fantasy RPG IMO.

btw i have checked DD3 and 3.5, also 5ED, PF1 ED - no info of having a soul in your dead body.. :(

Hi Fellow Players,

i have a question that i cannot answer.

Its about liches and their sould cages/phylacteries

When we read the description of Sould cage (Book of the dead) or phylactery (in Bestiary) there is an information that when lich would die its sould returns to the soul cage/phylactery to recreate a new body.

Fine, but in any case except the initial death of a mortal (to become a lich) isnt the soul supposed to be trapped in the cage aka - it does not flee to the cage - its already there?

If it flees does it mean after rebuilding the body its transferred back to it (the body)? In such case whats the point in destroying the case? here a lich wouldnt need to look for its missing soul - it would be inside him/her?

sorry but am lost... maybe thats only me

How exactly the SC/P works? Please examples from books - i want to understand fully the source material,

Cheers!

@Sibelius Eos Owm

exactly, this perhaps is a geek philosophy but this topic I just find fascinating.

I absolutely agree with what you say. Especially with the fact that turning undead even as an evil act is not making you evil permanently (this would be rather the sum of your actions at the very end - judgement day).

I remember from Forgotten Realms lore (I think it was in my least favorite DD 4E) Baelnorn lich - who is an elf turned undead as a protector by a divine ritual. It was a form of self-sacrifice - and what is a better good deed than this?

As for the zombie creation - tearing a small part of your soul to bind it with the corpse and effectively tormenting it is also a very good point, and I indeed buy this entirely. Especially with context of Pharasma's entire philosophy - love it.

As for turning lich during the ritual @Matthew Downie you have pointed this ritual in Core Rulebook 2E - yep you are right, but this is creating a new entity.
What about such 2 examples:

1) By turning lich you torment your own soul - once more you do evil to yourself, since evil is a subjective matter - you are evil to yourself - same as a good character than is starving to feed others. I dont see nothing evil here - only yet another price.

2) Imagine situation - a solider dies, goes to Pharasma's Spire for Judgement, he/she was good so lands in one of Good Planes - heaven. Judgement done. After few hundred years a necromancer finds your bones preserved in sands when you originally died. He rises them up as a mindless skeleton servant. Your soul is already Judged, and safe in heaven, isn't it? so no torment there i assume?

Like already pointed Lich may not necessary be evil but is susceptible to it via loosing the grasp on morality. Facinating IMO.

Good one guys.

And what happens to the Lich when it finally passes away? What would Pharasma do to punish this unholy think. Is it possible that the lich was lets say Neutral and Pharasa just not care about the punishment at all (therefore sends him to a neutral plane?). Can she even punish?

*** as I mentioned am new to Pathfinder and if you have any suggestions about cool undead lore am more than happy to take it! Especially the lore that is mature enough for over 32 year old man I am ;)

there is a thing i fundamentally dissagree with. undeath magic isnt evil per se. its neutral as every magic. only usage make it evil or good. E/G is subjective only. And also i dont agree that creating zombies/skeletons is evil - do simply dont affect souls at all. it is unnatural - yes but not evil until sb is hurt. You dont channel any sinister thing - or at least you dont need to.

wht you say is an approach that is already preset by the culture and ideology. my big no no to this.

as for the rest i agree - being udead is making you more cold, the compassion starts to look like a waste, bleached, distant. If you are undead you have 80% chances of becoming evil - that is true.

Hello,

Necromancy and undeath are my favourite topics in fantasy genre. I have spent my entire RPG life (around 10 + years) thinking about it. Since we have this black-white distinguish in many games (especially in modern DD) that undeath is bad/evil, not for players. I loved DD 3.0 because it gave me the choice - nothing i could get from DD since then. Now i discovered PF2 and it quickly is becoming my go to system. Now back to the topic.

In popculture undeath is presented as always evil thing - mad type of kill every living soul thing. In most cases thats the point, especially in non sentient undead forms which are driven purely by instinct and hunger. Many undead (especially ghosts) are tragic souls who are grief or even anger driven - that also is typically resulting in evil deeds and intentions.

But what about more sophisticated necro-non-breathers?

LICH - first of all it can be made by performing the ritual of undeath (which for now i couldnt find anywhere - assume its just a custom one and up to GM to decide). In DD there is an prerequisite (i dont know how it looked in PF - I havent played it) to commit an evil act that is so impactful that can tear the soul from caster's body and put it in the phylactery. Ok, lets think about it.

Lets say you are a spellcaster that want to achieve apotheosis and become a lich. You are interested in power, in knowledge. Lets even say you are a follower of Nethys so your intentions are clear (yeah - kind of). You dont care about morality - good and evil are just subjective issues and ideology based believes - act of war and killing during it - every side of a conflict treats itself as a defender after all. Even killing a crazy goblin as a sentient being is evil, period. So you want to become a lich in order to have enough time to practice arcane arts.
In PF2 Bestiary i havent found any prerequisite for the ritual that has to kill people. I remember that in DnD it was a thing to sacrifice a sentient creature. Assume it has to be this terrible soul - tearing act. I have seen also on many forums that this act is supposedly to be dehumanizing. Even here i saw a very nice pulled story by one user about rising and sacrificing ones own child (very well written sir!). But in my opinion that is all just useless or waste to be more specific. First of all there are more than one way to achieve lichdom. One can be as described - and utter evil act. What you need in this process is enough energy to transform you into lich. Its irrelevant if its good or evil, just power. I see no reason to sacrifice your own child in order to pull enough energy for the ritual. It could be as well criminal or perhaps no sacrifice at all - just a connection to the Mealstorm (?). I dont see where doing evil is more powerful than good or neutral since those are just subjective matters. In this example we do not talk abut lichdom granted by a diety - who may demand a specific approach/action that is connected to its portfolio.

Ok, you became a lich, what now? Next issue that is quite widely known is sustaining you phylactery with souls. Where to begin. Lets have a look on the spell Bind Soul - no sustaining - just gem. Here you bind your own soul in order not to die. Of course there is an issue with regenerating after your body is destroyed - that will most likely make phylactery's energy level depleted - so charging it with souls (assume its the most energy efficient source of energy) is justified. But can it be done without sould? Like I said - IMO absolutely, its going to just that much harder - its way easier to find the person to drain than a secret energy power source (there is also a problem of how to siphon that energy). I see no point in feeding the phylactery with souls when the lich remains intact - i dont see any energy usage (comparing to a gem with a soul in it). More than that binding your soul into the object isnt an evil act at all - you simply do not harm nobody.

Now back to more ideology based matters. What is evil act? In my books its a deed that hurts other being. Either killing or having it suffer. Bind Sould is an evil spell because you unable sb's soul to go to the afterlife. Therefore an act of animating a zombie or a skeleton is at its core neutral - its just flesh, the owner's soul isnt affected at all - frankly just doesnt care. But when the zombie goes on rampage to town and starts killing people - its all on you (zombie's creator) and thats obviously evil.
Of course we have another aspect - either way you create undead or become one - you are going to piss Pharasma really bad but this is another story.

Last thing in this topic is going to be the price of the lichdom. First of all obtaining the knowledge how to become one should be an EXTREMELY hard task, most likely the entire campaign goal for the character. This should cause the PC to complete a lot of research and tasks in order to get clues how to do this. The CR+2 in the template in my opinion could be interpreted that where other players advance you (for 2 levels) have to stay at the same level, transferring all that energy to your phylactery. Its going to cost you physically a lot. That is mechanically going to result in you always being 2 levels lower than the rest of the party (with a potential of exceeding them later - theoretically).
The whole extremely evil to the core act I see as the bar set for players just not to try it. In unfortunately black-white (for me purely childish) fantasy worlds in many RPGs its the way to tell people - dont do evil. We are not children anymore and most of us know that the wold isnt black-and-white but in many shades of gray. Thats the fact, and i want to have more mature approach to my games. Additionally imagine that you by becoming a lich you are most likely to become isolated - people are going to fear you, many of liches are insane because of that (and most likely absolutely evil). You are also going to witness all your loved ones/friends/basically anybody dying because of old age or by some other circumstances - which can damage your sanity even more. And finally yo are going to see how your body rots on your bones, how your flesh is going to fell off your bones, imagine how your eyes are going to look in 1-2 years... Isnt that disturbing enough?

I haven't mentioned the sheer cost of the phylactery - its going to be crazy expensive - better start to save your money now, and if its destroyed... ups. Good luck with finding a job as a lich ;)

To recap:
1) the transformation process for the lich doesnt need to be evil - its way simpler to go the evil path though,
2) the cost for lich to pay is very high and most likely is going to affect your mind - and that makes you more prone to commit evil,
3) alignment is the sum of your deeds, no one is making just good without some evil here and there - your alignment is going to be an average of your doings,
4) most liches are eventually going to become evil, but if you are strong mentally you can avoid this fate and net off as NEUTRAL

I try to oppose this one-minded approach that the lich has to be evil - there is NO REASON to. But its very possible that you end up there...

What do you think?

And BTW imagine the situation: a lich after millennia of cheating on Pharasma's life-death circle finally messes up and ends up being destroyed. Its soul goes for the Lady of Bones judgement and... ? What is she doing? :) have a good one!

*** sorry for my English, am not a native English speaker, so please do not kill me for any mistake i made

Many thanks, that explains a lot !

Some time ago i move from DnD5E to PF2E, i absolutely love the spirit of DnD3 in PF2E, love content and massive options both in mechanic and lore.

Since i build my campaigns around gods usually (am a DM) i acquired Lost Omens Gods&Magic supplement. I was intrigued by few gods and their philosophical concepts. It seemed a little too short for my liking. And then my friend showed me the Inner Sea Gods for PF1E and ... what happened.

ISG is much more complete in lore, it has over 300 pages and for 2E its just a 100 page draft in comparison.

Am I missing sth? why this book is so short and lacking of details of shrines, holidays etc not speaking about the gods themselves? Is it possible that we are yet to receive ISG for 2E and this one is just a teaser?

Am really confused an disappointed (this is the only product in the PF2 great line that upsets me :( )

hope to hear your thoughts

Cheers!