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What does it mean by outsider, and why do they eventually fade into the "very fabric of the planes"?
Outsider is a general term for demons, devils, angels, psychopomps, azatas, proteans, aeons, divs, kytons, etc. Beings of the Outer Sphere that are (for the most part) formed from mortal souls.
Becoming an outsider is a Big Deal. It takes a very long time, and mostly happens for very strong or dedicated souls. Suppose you get to Heaven, and while you were Lawful Good, it was in a small and casual way. Your soul might be a bit more inclined to enjoy Heaven for a while and eventually you'd just kind of… becomes part of it. Or, maybe more starkly, I imagine there are plenty of Lawful Evil souls that just don't have what it takes to endure centuries of torment and use that to harden themselves into a devil and begin the climb down the infernal ladder of power.
In Pathfinder, Heaven and Hell are not eternal rewards and punishments respectively; souls end up where they're suited. And, if none of the souls went to reinforcing those planes, reality would get dissolved into the chaos of the Maelstrom.
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It's not really a change from P1.
When you died you joined the River of Souls and eventually got judged, becoming a petitioner and sent to your destined Plane. There you might change into a different Outsider/Immortal or eventually fade into Quintessence, the building blocks of the soul and the universe, for the Plane itself.
From what I've gathered it goes something like this:
You die and go to the boneyard
you are judged by pharasma or her host of Psychopomps and assigned to the afterlife that mostly suits you (or if you are overpowerd you can just leave the waiting line and become an entity yourself like urgathoa did)
you become a petitioner suited to that afterlife
a petitioner can be uplifted to become a higher outsider, live for all eternity or die (mostly through external influence)
the quintessence of petitioners who die (or the leftovers when someone is uplifted) become partially plane stuff and partially go into the natural circle of life energy that goes on in the universe
If I got something on the official stuff wrong I hope people are going to correct it :P
But it should be mostly in line with how it is
But as in every rpg - it is ultimately up to the gamemaster how he/she/they want to handel that kind of stuff
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Warning - below is my understanding of pathfinder lore and might be wrong:
The river of souls in Pathfinder lore after a person dies goes:
1) Person dies
2) Soul travels to Pharasma's boneyard
3) Soul is judged, then goes to whichever plane (heaven, hell, etc) to start a second life as a petitioner
4) petitioner eventually dies, or becomes an outsider, and the outsider, given time, eventually dies
5) dead petitioner / outsider becomes quintessence, which is plane material
6) quintessence aka plane material erodes away into the maelstrom
7) maelstrom throws all the eroded quintessence / plane material into the positive energy plane
8) positive energy plane turns all the quintessence energy into positive energy and throws it through the first world / material plane
9) positive energy in the material plane finds some new life and resides inside as a host and eventually becomes a soul with free will
10) the new lifeform is born and lives life and eventually goes to step 1)You can read about it more in Planar Adventures.
You can also ask the creative director James Jacobs these setting questions too.
Most complete answer, and it fit with my own understanding. +1
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Golarion, the world of Pathfinder, doesn't offer eternal life to nearly anyone - not even its deities. The only exceptions are the Lovecraftian "Old Ones", who predate the current Pathfinder universe, according to the game lore. Pharasma also predates the universe as a survivor of the previous universe, but it is implied she will end with this universe and another being will be the survivor that makes it to the next one
I'm not a fan of the cosmology of Golarion (quite the opposite), but it is what it is
Golarion, the world of Pathfinder, doesn't offer eternal life to nearly anyone - not even its deities. The only exceptions are the Lovecraftian "Old Ones", who predate the current Pathfinder universe, according to the game lore. Pharasma also predates the universe as a survivor of the previous universe, but it is implied she will end with this universe and another being will be the survivor that makes it to the next one
I'm not a fan of the cosmology of Golarion (quite the opposite), but it is what it is
Thanks for the nice summary. Well, I don't enjoy this most sour element of the Lost Omens CS either, but at least my hypothetical homebrew CS will guarantee some way to achieve true immortality by some way or other...
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Well, consider what permanent is from the perspective of beings that can survive for millenia. If a mortal dies, is judged, and then goes on to ...say, Heaven, and does eventually become quintessence, does the fact that it took 120,000 years make it weaker or less amazing?
It's different for everyone, and everything, with a soul, I'm sure. We get an example of one NPC in a certain AP who was alive over 10,000 years ago, and we see them as an outsider in our current time in-game. They went beyond petitioner and are still in existence, and that's wild.
What time means to an outsider, petitioner, or god is entirely different than what it means to us, I think; the life cycle, in their planar view, is always in motion, sure, and nothing lasts forever, but in comparison to the brief time that PCs/NPCs have on the plane, it can sure feel like forever!
As to immortality, though, there's always shortcuts, and certain NPCs have made good use of them (Old Mage Jatembe, Haojin, Baba Yaga, and more). Mythic PCs from PF1 could achieve a kind of immortality, too, but I imagine those are extremely rare and for good reason!
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Keep in mind, that while not permanent, you're talking on the order of incredibly long spans of time.
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Keep in mind, that while not permanent, you're talking on the order of incredibly long spans of time.
The end of the show "the good place" handled this really well imo.
I'm reminded of a comic from one of Paizo-WotC's magazines.
The comic's human main character flirts with an elf in a tavern. She acquiesces to his request for a date, setting the time 10 years in the future (not to punk him, but sincerely). He pushes for sooner, leading her to wonder if he's terminally ill because why is he in such a rush. It's 10 years, just around the corner.
That said, much of the time dilation as we get older is due to lack of novelty. I can imagine a curious, immortal gnome scientist might experience eternity quite differently than a jaded, immortal human layabout.
Also note that for game & plot reasons, Pharasma has been ascribed the ability to discern to know which souls will/might return. (Apologies for lacking the source material for that, heard it a decade-ish ago.) Convenient for GMs when determining whether a soul remains in the Boneyard or not. So if the game-plot requires a soul to come back, they can. If it requires not or perma-death, then nope, soul's already moved on.
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It's probably worth noting that the funnel of eroded quintessence from the Maelstrom back to the positive energy plane isn't natural per se, but due to the intervention of the aeons at a location/object known as the Antipode. The proteans of course are not happy about this because without it, their desire to return the static portions of the cosmos back to their own ever-changing, fluidic reality that it all first arose from would proceed much, much faster.
Creative Director
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Also note that for game & plot reasons, Pharasma has been ascribed the ability to discern to know which souls will/might return. (Apologies for lacking the source material for that, heard it a decade-ish ago.) Convenient for GMs when determining whether a soul remains in the Boneyard or not. So if the game-plot requires a soul to come back, they can. If it requires not or perma-death, then nope, soul's already moved on.
Not only convenient for GMs, but designed specifically to work that way to be a GM or storyteller or author's sole discretion. Had we/I made Golarion not for an interactive RPG but as a world to simply put novels or other stories in, we may well have gone a different route entirely.
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The purpose of souls in the Pathfinder cosmology is to sort souls anyway. The plane that represents "pure chaos" constantly eats away at all other outer planes, so those planes need a constant infusion of "new plane stuff" lest they fall into the Maelstrom.
That "new plane stuff" takes the form of petitioners. Some of them are going to grow into powerful outsiders with a strong sense of self, but others are literally going to fade into the landscape. You lose your memories in becoming a petitioner (though they still exist and it's possible to get them back) in order to make the transition to the outer planes less traumatic (which is not to say your next phase of existence will be pleasant, but it will at least seem "normal" to you.)
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Also, I believe "the petitioner that keeps their memories" is a thing, albeit rare and for specific story purposes. That could be older data interfering, yet Paizo pretty much makes such narrative tweaks often as the setting serves the narratives they want to tell and not vice-versa.
So even if not true, it becomes true whenever such a petitioner is required.
I imagine that if one's consciousness survived long enough, it would eventually WELCOME the saving grace of oblivion in the form of melding with plane stuff.
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The loss of memory has the interesting side effect that Golarion religions cannot really promise you an afterlife you will enjoy. But only an afterlife your future amnesiac you will enjoy, which is not much TBH. And there are no mechanical consequences for changing which deity you worship.
So which deity you will choose to worship will be based on the closeness of your respective viewpoints. And Clerics have the awesome ability to gain real magical power from this.
Also, I believe "the petitioner that keeps their memories" is a thing, albeit rare and for specific story purposes. That could be older data interfering, yet Paizo pretty much makes such narrative tweaks often as the setting serves the narratives they want to tell and not vice-versa.
So even if not true, it becomes true whenever such a petitioner is required.
It's still a thing, albeit rare as you said.
When a mortal dies, their soul travels to the Boneyard in the Outer Planes where they are judged by Pharasma, the goddess of the dead. Once they have been judged, their soul is sent on to their final reward or punishment in the afterlife, and in the process is transformed into a creature known as a petitioner. This process grants the soul a new body, one whose shape is the result of the prevailing philosophical forces of the plane to which it is sent. The petitioner's memories from their life are typically wiped nearly clean, allowing them to retain only a few hazy fragments akin to half-remembered dreams. Regardless of the petitioner's size, power, or nature in life, they're a Medium creature in their afterlife.
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In canon, your memories still exists (a deity can show you them) and everything you ever experienced is recorded in the Akashic Record if you can find your way there.
It's just that for the most part, once you become an Axiomite, or whatever, you're probably just not that concerned with "well, what was I like in the beforenow" as it doesn't really relate to your current circumstances at all.
The loss of memory has the interesting side effect that Golarion religions cannot really promise you an afterlife you will enjoy. But only an afterlife your future amnesiac you will enjoy, which is not much TBH. And there are no mechanical consequences for changing which deity you worship.
That's a good point. Is this knowledge about what the afterlife is actually like somewhat easily available to a mortal?
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The loss of memory has the interesting side effect that Golarion religions cannot really promise you an afterlife you will enjoy. But only an afterlife your future amnesiac you will enjoy, which is not much TBH. And there are no mechanical consequences for changing which deity you worship.That's a good point. Is this knowledge about what the afterlife is actually like somewhat easily available to a mortal?
"Easily available" is relative, right?
Do some mortals know these things? Yes. Commune is a thing, as is planar traveling.Civilians likely also disbelieve some true things and believe true things based on false premises that fail to support them, meaning theological arguments remain. Though many people don't care and go with what they last heard or makes them feel best. A lot of religious followers do just that, follow.
Adventurers, at least PCs, are the types that know these things for valid reasons or run in the same social (or antisocial!) circles as those who know. Leaders, as it were.
I disagree with the premise "religions cannot really promise you an afterlife you will enjoy" because they most certainly can promise it, even "really promise" it if they themselves have been duped into believing it (perhaps even by their own deity!).
Chicanery aside, even if you become somebody else, do you really? That's as much a matter of metaphysics as anything, and in a fantasy world rife with many variant interpretations of souls (et al). Now we're getting into "what does 'you' mean?" and how much is it tied to memories which while contentious in philosophy is more a matter of what's most convenient for your gaming experience in RPGs. (And there are scholars of the major Earth faiths that disagree over what happens to one's memories or to what degree which parts get wiped and the ramifications. So even real-world religions (or specific denominations to be more precise) make the same promises and with the same amnesiac consequences as Golarion ones do, though most don't put the amnesia front and center in their masses or marketing.)
As versed as I am in this, I do not want to tackle Essentialism vs. Existentialism at the game table though!
And then there's the fact that Good mortals might be similarly pleased on behalf of "amnesiac you" as if for "me now you". Empathy and all that.
"I sure hope that fella enjoys themself." becomes a Good, charitable position to take when you have no control over the brevity of your own life/consciousness/self/whatnot. So the promise, while not for the person, is a promise to the person that "future semi-different person" will enjoy their life.
Of course, Evil folk might take the inverse route (and apparently do!) of saying "Screw future me-not-me! I want what I want now!". And oops if they retain their memories! "Damn, past-me, I hate you so much!"
And if you were referring to lack of mechanical consequences for changing deities, that's a matter of narrative more than mechanics, yes. That doesn't mean from the PC/NPC POV there aren't consequences though. Obvious would be the social ones, perhaps Domain access, and maybe even retributive ones from certain deities. The modules and scenarios have examples of this, though often the deity that picks up the new cleric will compensate as part of the package (unless being perverse and discarding the priest as soon as they lose everything tied to their former belief system...which some classic modules had examples of.)
And many GMs I know would have the PC jump through some hoops to prove to the new deity one's fealty (and perhaps to prevent whimsical god-hopping on the part of the player) unless there were some revelatory moment during play.
:)
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Both in the diegesis and outside of it, you really don't want to be encouraging people to just go ahead and die because what comes next is better anyway.
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Both in the diegesis and outside of it, you really don't want to be encouraging people to just go ahead and die because what comes next is better anyway.
The crime of SO MANY isekai...
Both in the diegesis and outside of it, you really don't want to be encouraging people to just go ahead and die because what comes next is better anyway.
Unless that particular scenario needs a suicide cult. :O
(Not that I think Paizo would touch on such tender topics.)Of course, suicidal worldviews aren't going to thrive many generations, so the robust ones will have extricated such aspects or fizzled out.
(And IRL many suicides have been due to such interpretations of major religions, not simply from cults.)
Similarly, there'd been a popular Christian denomination in its formative years which promoted not breeding due to the coming apocalypse.
Popular for one generation that is, also because "no sex" also makes for a poor recruiting slogan.
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There's a reason why the faction with an entire race of Outsiders dedicated to the ways that people die (including various kinds of suicide) are Neutral Evil nihilists.
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It's probably worth noting that the funnel of eroded quintessence from the Maelstrom back to the positive energy plane isn't natural per se, but due to the intervention of the aeons at a location/object known as the Antipode. The proteans of course are not happy about this because without it, their desire to return the static portions of the cosmos back to their own ever-changing, fluidic reality that it all first arose from would proceed much, much faster.
More evidence at Aeons and Proteans always having been at odds even in 1e? ;D
(on sidenote, yes this is how it has always worked in 1e as well. I don't particularly find it that "sour", you could call it bittersweet, but I think humans should be able to let go of concept of eternity as everything always ends eventually.)
But yeah, seriously though, existing for 1,000,000 years would most likely be pretty horrifying especially if you have perfect memory of it <_< Ennui and all that jazz. Eventually you have experienced everything you can imagine and everything feels too samey.
I also think that lot of people who ask this question think it from christian perspective rather than like Buddhist perspective and such. The soul can go through reincarnation through multiple times before being judged and even then natural process of petitioner melding into plane varies between petitioners and always takes long time. But just fact is that eventually it will get bored of existing.
(Sidenote: I've always been kinda wondering if Christian heaven as described is form of brainwashing, since place where you are eternally happy sounds impossible to my depression and anxiety filled brain without several altering of how my brain works :p)
I think petitioners not having full mortal memories while still retaining the personality is actually really merciful because most mortals would kinda go mad at existing that long time. I think part of reason why aligned outsiders don't have free will or mortal memories is because it helps them through borderline eternal existence until violent end.
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Whoa, wait. Who said aligned outsiders don't have free will?
(or on the flip side, that anybody has free will?)
Given that it's an RPG, there's free will at least for PCs so there's some semblance (assuming one thinks of the player & PCs in synergy and not players as puppetmasters over an actual entity!). And since PCs can come from aligned outsiders, they'd have free will too. Their natures/alignment may be less fluid, yet that could as easily be from preference ("will" which they are "free" to choose, albeit more consistently than many) rather than coercion/compulsion/programming (not free).
Struck me afterward that I've heard this argument made for omnigod having free will: that it's free to do whatever it wants, yet always chooses the best, most moral choices. (Of course, to those outside it looks exactly the same as being programmed! And we're treading on Hard Problem of Consciousness too...for an immaterial concept.)
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As for whether an infinite awareness/experience/existence is a good thing or not is something you'll seldom hear debated in churches (answer: "Yes! So join us!"), yet religious scholars and philosophers contend with it regularly. Just this week I've been reading a blog dealing with exactly that, and how could one enjoy it; any eternity would eventually become hell, and since it's infinite, whatever time of joy there'd be would get swamped by the vastness. Self-chosen mind wipes were about the only solution, or as you suggested, Corvus, you not being "you" any more (especially when factoring in loved ones suffering in less hospitable afterlives).
I think Golarion cosmology allows for most of Earth's variants, if only for narrative purposes caused by having so many countries based on Earth's various mythological roots. There's some Samsaran rebirth going on alongside infinite afterlives based on one's finite actions, alongside annihilationism, and so forth. Contradictory beliefs (mostly) all get to be true, alongside beliefs held by Lovecraftian monsters and dozens of humanoid species. A Wendigo can ally with Asmodeus who works with a Samsaran priest who has Naga minions fighting Tian monastic chi-warriors and thunder priests destined for Valhalla.
The answer to "How many variant afterlives are there?" is "Yes".
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Aligned Outsiders don't have free will in pathfinder role by sense of not being able to choose to do evil of their own volition :p Outsiders who have memory of their lives as mortals are different sort of dealio by nature of remembering what it is like being mortal when "good" and "evil" aren't naturally obvious things to you so they would have more of free will than normal outsiders
No the Outsiders has free will and even can fallen. But their minds work as their main alighment is natural and the correct way to think as default but they can change it from time.
If not we wouldn't have Fallen Angels in scenario:
Fallen Angels
Many religions include stories of angels rebelling against a creator or becoming corrupt and evil. Sadly, this is indeed possible, though thankfully rare, and only the proudest or weakest-willed angels succumb to this fate. Fallen angels are exiles of the good realms, hunted by their former brethren and easy targets for fiends as well. The fallen lose some of the grace and light of their untainted kin, though many are said to still be tragically beautiful. Rarer still are those fallen angels strong and clever enough to join the legions of Hell, and who are often transformed into some type of devil, or those who become demons of the Abyss and carve out a niche in that horrible realm or come to serve a greater demon.
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Most outsiders have always known only the life of their aligned plane, filled with similarly aligned creatures and following the alignment's principles, which are also the principles that fit the outsider's own alignment.
Even with free will, you can see why an outsider's alignment is extremely unlikely to change.
Ye say that but setting itself states aligned outsiders don't have free will until something causes them to change
Where?
And are you equating "having one choice (or limited choices) in alignment" with "having no (free) choices"? a.k.a. what are you saying "free will" is on Golarion? (I put that last bit in because there's zero consensus on Earth, even among those that believe in it!)|
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Too tired to find exact quote, I know that aphorite entry is one of those that refers to it(that as "native outsiders" they have free will).
But yes what I was referring to is that mortals aren't naturally good or evil and creature that is born as good/evil has less choice than creature that develops into one through their life.
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Ye say that but setting itself states aligned outsiders don't have free will until something causes them to changeWhere?
And are you equating "having one choice (or limited choices) in alignment" with "having no (free) choices"? a.k.a. what are you saying "free will" is on Golarion? (I put that last bit in because there's zero consensus on Earth, even among those that believe in it!)
Well, the energy that funnels out from the maelstrom to the positive energy plane that gets made into souls is unsorted (it's the maelstrom, what does one expect). The whole purpose of "giving souls to living things" is to let them, through their actions and choices sort that energy so that it goes to reinforce the correct outer plane.
So whether or not outsiders have "free will" their will is certainly less free than that of mortals, since the whole point of mortals is "let's see what they do".
I think the thing about outsiders and free will is that the nature of your plane is really baked into you in a real way, so as an axiomite, for example, you are the sort of person who really, really likes following the rules and having a routine and generally just living in structure- that's why you became an axiomite in the first place. You can choose to break a rule, but it will never be a casual thing for you (it might even be somewhat traumatic.)
There have to be falling/redemption arcs, but these are particularly rare since it requires the person to meaningfully betray their very nature repeatedly over a long period of time. Mortals, on the other hand, can just wake up one day and decide to meaningfully change how they live their lives and just stick to it and have it work out.
Here's what I found in the PF1 Archives of Nethys:
But the axiomites are ill-suited to interactions with mortals. As creatures of pure order, they find it difficult to deal with creatures who have the free will to choose their own destinies and to interpret (or even willfully ignore) laws. Ancient axiomites long pondered a solution to problematic encounters with visitors from the Material Plane. The answer they arrived at was the creation of a new form of life—a melding of their own perfection of order with the unpredictable and fragile bodies and minds of mortal humanoids.
Thus, the first aphorites came to be. Although these women and men were always welcome in Axis, the perfect city was not their true home. Infused with a spark of mortality and the influence of the Material Plane, aphorites were created to serve as diplomats, translators, and envoys between the axiomites and the myriad cultures of the countless Material Plane worlds. As native outsiders, aphorites have free will of their own, and they live and die just as other mortals do.
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There are two parts.
The first is a comparison between mortals and axiomites who, because they are beings of pure order, have an inability to comprehend freedom. The last part makes perfect sense, yet implies non-Lawful outsiders have less of an issue with such constraints, so do understand free will.
I'd think free will would be a major focus for Chaotic Good beings.
The other states that as native outsiders aphorites have as much free will as mortals. This could be seen as contrasting "native" with "all other outsiders", yet I don't read it that way. I read it as "these folk have free will even though they have the lineage of those outsiders w/o free will that we just mentioned".
But we do know that in at least a minor, sidenote sort of way, that free will exists in Golarion metaphysics.
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As for being born good or evil determining one's freedom of will, we might have parted ways on definitions.
Being born with a will that wishes to do good I don't think places constraints on that will's ability to will what IT wills.
Its nature has tendencies, yes, but not technically boundaries, and to me its nature is secondary to its ability to have agency.
Yours seems a bit more meta, as in a "free" will being able to have any nature, except wouldn't that will want to be the alignment it best aligns with depending on its original essence?
Saying it's "free" sort of supposes a will having agency on its own nature or the determination being driven by outside forces. Where did the will get the will to be a certain way? From itself? Well, how much did it control what itself would will itself to be? This regress can continue ad infitum, with the ultimate result that at the root of things either there's no beginning (awkward), a random or outside cause (not willed by the entity in question), or a circular loop (the nature of which would be hard to imagine being controlled by elements of that loop).
Being able to be any alignment gives a bigger set of circumstances(so in a sense having more freedom), yet if one doesn't have agency to determine what one is or what one wishes to be, there's no more freedom anyway. More options implied, yet how much more agency in choosing one's options?
Note that I recognize that my interpretation does not handle this problem either, mainly because IMO the problem's insurmountable, as shown by thousands of years of philosophy failing to manage so!
Do the entities have a will that they can act on without coercion? Maybe even a will free to alter itself over time? To me that's free.
And apparently Axiomites lack such, living in a constant mode of being controlled by Order itself (whatever that means).
What's that phrase? "I can want my wants, but I can't choose my wants." or something similar?
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Free will was created by a LG deity (Ihys).
I think Lawful can understand free will just as well as Chaotic does.
And I think both are baffled by the ability of mortals (and similar creatures) to change alignment so easily.
Axiomites do not understand why a given being would want to change, why they would choose a different way than that they followed until then.
Proteans likewise do not understand why someone would want stability, why they would choose to always do the same thing instead of embracing constant change and transformation.
After all, free will is not bound to choose the freedom of Chaos. It can select the stability of Law and yet still be free will.
I think the thing that baffles axiomites is less that mortals are capable of breaking the rules, and more that mortals are so adept at reinterpreting the rules in whatever manner is most convenient.
Like if you were to put a sign up "Do not walk on the grass" the axiomite would intepret that as "I should not disturb the grass, if no one disturbs the grass the grass will grow as desired" whereas a mortal might read "Do not walk on the grass" and thereby determine that if they were to run, jog, trot, skip, hop, crawl, trundle, boogie, sidle, etc. on the grass that would be permissible since the thing they are doing is not "walking".
To the axiomite the correct way to behave is obvious, to the mortal it is debatable.