Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I'll be honest Jason all I want is for my Clerics to get an ability similar to the Level 1 Focus Power for Necromancer Sorcerors, since that was basically the same Domain ability Clerics got with the Undead Subdomain, and being able to have that in 2e at the moment requires multiclassing into Sorceror twice at 2 and 4. By no means is this a dealbreaker but it does seem a bit silly that the Cleric Undeath Focus Power in 2e is just another "pew pew damage" spell, which sounds to me more Sorceror than "bam you're now like an undead for the purpose of Negative Energy healing".
It seems you meant Basic Bloodline spell, but yes that does seem to be the way to do it. Thanks.
I'll be honest looking through all of this is a bit overwhelming to take in at once, so I'll hope that someone else here has a better grasp on it to answer this question. If I'm playing a Cleric, and I'm looking to get the level 1 Focus Power of a Sorceror, but am not really all that interested in anything else the Sorceror gives (though if I have to dip to get it that's fine), is there anything I can do to make that happen as of right now or am I SOL?
Not sure if this should fall under the umbrella of Homebrew, but I feel like if there wasn't one already having some kind of interaction with Necromancy, especially the act of Raising Undead with the new Ritual system, should get benefits from utilizing a Soul Gem, especially if the Gem in question houses the soul of the creature whose body you're raising.
I also have noted that in their entry any given soul no longer has pre-existing listed prices like in PF1, is there a system by which that we should estimate these prices or should we just figure one up ourselves? My initial assumption, barring any insight in the book itself, is that selling a Gem containing the soul of a creature of Rating X could yield you an item of Value Y, most likely a consumable of equivalent worth or, alternatively, a Permanent Item rated lower than the Creature's Rating by some amount, which would, in my opinion, put it in line with things like Calling, Binding, and Raising creatures which have rules like "pay the Outsider with a magical item of this level of value in exchange for its services".
Update: we ran the session and due to a combination of their luck, skill, and 2 fudged die rolls on my end they won. Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to figure out what the ramifications of their actions would be since even though they knocked her down to just -1 HP exactly, there was a lot of arguing back and forth on what to do with her until one of them just decided to hit her while she was down and finished her off, much to the consternation of the ones that wanted to try and keep her alive and try to redeem her.
It is what it is, at least the players had fun overall.
So my players have gotten it into their heads that they need to get to the Shard of Lust in Book 2 as fast as physically possible, and in so doing have skipped not only the warring tribes outside the Lady (which I made the consequences of that the Troglodytes were wiped out by the Boggards), but a LOT of rooms within the dungeon that could help them in the final fight against Ashamintallu, and to make it worse the Rogue snuck so far ahead that he got captured and taken to her, where she promptly Charmed him into more or less working for her.
With both of these factors in mind, as well as the knowledge that the Wizard will get massively dicked by the Dispel room for reasons that are too long to get into right now, I'm very worried that the fight against her will be too much and that Ashamintallu will win. If this happens, what would be the consequences? In addition to everything else, it's almost inevitable that they'll break the Curse on her, which I imagine would have an insane effect on her psyche since she's been warped by it for so long.
Any insight on this issue would be appreciated, thanks.
James Jacobs wrote:
Well yes of course, even if I did show them your response they'd probably still do whatever they thought was the more interesting answer, I was just wondering what your opinion would be, since the Reclamation basically fought a war over/with that sword, so I just wanted to get your take on it if you had one.
As a side note, funnily enough, we also played it so that our Vengeance characters have connections to the Curse of the Crimson Throne characters we played for that campaign, so another possibility exists for the wielder of Serithtial from that campaign to also wield Heart's Edge if we really wanted to make that happen, now wouldn't THAT would be an Iomedian powerhouse.
Hey James, final question relating to my Necromancer character, albeit only tangentially related to the craft. Our party completed Vengeance, and after everything was said and done we were left wondering what to do with the sword that the Reclamation had that kicked the whole thing off. It seemed like a waste to just let it sit somewhere and we didn't have the means in-game to alter it into its Evil variant, so I suggested dropping it in the laps of the Knights of Ozem, even though I'm a Necromancer that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a fan of Tar Baphon.
My question is, do you think this decision would alter anything msjor about how Tyrant's Grasp plays out, or is Heart's Edge not powerful enough of an artifact to matter much to the Horned King?
It's an extradimensional space so YOU aren't actually going through the Wall of Fire yourself, plus you're not taking any extra actions every round so the standard 2Xcon rules for holding your breath would apply, and all of that is assuming that by the time you're able to do this you can't just conjure up an Air Bubble either with your own magic or, barring that, a potion or scroll.
As for commanding the construct, just telling it to get near the enemy and release me either when it does or if it's about to die should be sufficient.
Eh, I'll be in there for less than a minute, I'm sure it'll be fine.
I'm actually kind of shocked that I missed that, and it fits perfectly within my plan of "Reduce Person myself to fit" given that the MAXIMUM size limit for a Small creature is 4', and my character is definitely not the max height of a Medium creature so he's assuredly less than that.
Plus since I'd be in an extradimensional space it also bypasses everyone's assertions that I'd be cooked by the Wall despite it not affecting the Golem. So neener to all of you guys ;P
Sounds like the golem armor from Ultimate Magic.
I'm specifically NOT going to do that because tbh wearable construct armor is way overpriced for what it does, and even then I don't plan on actually wearing the Golem as a suit like Iron Man, just as a transportation mechanism should the need arise.
Regardless, we're only in Book 2 or 3 so we've got plenty of time until this becomes an issue, I don't even have Craft Construct as a feat yet, but if and when I do this will be interesting to analyze.
So what you're all saying is that if I really wanted to I could conceivably make a very big Golem with an opening in its chest cavity, Reduce Person myself so I can easily fit inside, and then have it walk around through whatever magical BS gets sent my way and still be fine?
Theoretically speaking, of course.
A rather simply question, albeit one that I can't seem to find asked anywhere else online, but I'm playing in a game of Rise and my character has taken to building constructs with the extra money he makes as the party's resident Greedy character (we're all embodying a sin). My GM told us that in Book 6 the Karzoug fight can be incredibly rough, up to and including possibly doing things like summoning Wall spells to impede the player's progress from reaching him during his fight, which got me to thinking about whether or not dragging along a Golem might not be the worst idea, given that they are (aside from certain specific aspects) immune to magic. Does this extend to things like, say, Prismatic Wall, for instance? Why or why not?
James Jacobs wrote:
That's fair, though I still wonder what you think of the spell itself and its potential uses, has it been used in any of the games you've run or seen run?
Hi James, a lot has happened since my last post here, but that's not why I'm here. Just wanted to get your opinion on the Daywalker spell, it's one of the most interesting Necromancy spells in the game IMO and has a lot of potential RP possibilities, not the least of which being the ability to give a Ghost a corporeal form for 24 hours.
Also, if I had a character who wanted to charge someone for casting this should I just refer to the Spellcasting section of Goods and Services or do you think the spell's unique effects necessitate a higher price?
James Jacobs wrote:
Your response in the other thread was fair, in my opinion my GM is doing a rather good job of making it clear that what I'm doing is unusual and not normally something that is done by those of my character's... craft, we'll call it. The fact that we're playing an Evil party also means that it's not the biggest deal in the world if the Outsiders themselves also become Evil-aligned since we are Evil as well (yaaay Vengeance!). The reason I asked was because while I'm completely fine with the idea of all undead (aside from Ghosts) automatically becoming Evil upon being raised, I was reminded of Arazni's lore where it seems that she needed further convincing to fully convert over to embracing Evil, so I just wanted to pick your brain on the matter to see if you thought the Raising itself were something that altered the character's perception of reality instantly or if it's just one of those things where a formerly Good-aligned undead thinks at first they can still be Good but then inherently darker desires as an undead eventually unleash themselves, I suppose in a manner similar to a slow-acting alignment-shifting curse.
Also, as a related but ultimately separate question I may as well ask what the exact implications are, spiritually speaking, that one can even raise Outsiders as undead given that their body IS their soul. I'm well aware of the fact that raising a mortal as an undead prevents them from facing Judgement by Pharasma and janks with the Cycle of Souls, but my friends and I have tried looking it up and we aren't quite sure what exactly happens to Outsiders when THEY die, since I'm pretty sure Pathfinder doesn't use the lore stating that killing Outsiders doesn't really "kill" them unless you do it on their home plane. Anyway, yeah, Lord help me if I can't find an answer to how this works in Pathfinder's lore anywhere in books or in any Q/A's, IS there an official answer to this, and if so did me and my buddies just miss it somewhere? Does raising an Outsider actually interact with the cycle at all?
I posted this in another thread but I suppose I may as well here as well for visibility's sake:
I don't suppose I could ask you what might happen if, say, someone were to take the body of a Good-aligned Outsider and raise them up as an intelligent undead? At least in terms of personality, I mean, as from the Axiomite Graveknights listing in the SRD as well as the case of Arazni who I'm sure counted as some form of Outsider given her relationship to Aroden at the time before her death.
I only ask because my Necromancer character has taken to doing this with a lot of the enemy Outsiders we defeat in the Hell's Vengeance campaign we're running and any input you may have on what happens there mentally would be great. For instance, I've raised a Vulpinal Agathion as a Skeletal Champion, a Lillend Azata as a Zombie Lord, and most recently a Ghaele Azata as a Dullahan, all of which he has not controlled or compelled to do evil with any Control spells nor his Undead commanding feat. The last one is the most interesting to me since it's less of a template like the first two and more like a completely different creature type (and completely opposite on both the L/C and G/E spectrums to boot!), so any insight you may have would be welcome.
James Jacobs wrote:
With this thread's question in mind Mr. Jacobs, I don't suppose I could ask you what might happen if, say, someone were to take the body of a Good-aligned Outsider and raise them up as an intelligent undead? At least in terms of personality, I mean, as from the Axiomite Graveknights listing in the SRD as well as the case of Arazni who I'm sure counted as some form of Outsider given her relationship to Aroden at the time before her death.
I only ask because my character has taken to doing this with a lot of the enemy Outsiders we defeat in the Hell's Vengeance campaign we're running and any input you may have on what happens there mentally would be great. For instance, I've raised a Vulpinal Agathion as a Skeletal Champion, a Lillend Azata as a Zombie Lord, and most recently a Ghaele Azata as a Dullahan. The last one is the most interesting to me since it's less of a template like the first two and more like a completely different creature type (and completely opposite on both the L/C and G/E spectrums to boot!), so any insight you may have would be welcome.
The only problem there is that there's no consensus on whether or not liches can be called with things like Planar Ally and the like. Sure, there's Shadows which count as undead, but those are also kind of like Outsiders in that they normally reside within the Shadow Plane.
The same issue can be found for followers of Urgathoa, it's unclear if an aspiring Cleric could even, for instance, summon a Daughter of Urgathoa with Planar Ally, since all the ones we know about live in the Material Plane.
I got bored and began doing a deep-dive into the cosmology of Golarion, and was simultaneously excited and disappointed by the discovery of who, other than Urgathoa, are Evil-aligned patrons of the Undead. It seems that the concept is practically anathema to the LE side of things, as the only one who even has it as a point of interest is Baalzebub, and even then it feels like an afterthought since none of his lore supports it being a domain of his. Meanwhile, NE and CE have Undead Subdomains out the wazoo, but the most aggravating of them all for a lore/mechanics seeker like myself is Orcus, who seems to be just BARELY trailing behind Urgathoa and her sidekick Zyphus as the big Undead users in town. Now if only we knew more about what inhabited his domain.
The descriptions for what minions you might find in his domain list powerful undead like liches (good), Vermleks (nice, though a bit weak), and, I quote, "any chaotic-evil monster or creature tied to undeath or who has the capacity to create undead creatures". That seems a bit broad and unspecific! What if a player has a high level PC who follows Orcus, hm? Who or what are they supposed to summon that falls under those categories? Regardless, I'm making this thread so that if anyone is looking for this information in the future, they'll be able to see what the good people of this forum have come up with.
The Tomb Giant and the Dreamspawn variant of the Hungry Fog are interesting choices, one because I can probably convince my GM at some point in the future to go out and find one of those for my growing empire as the blacksmith, and the Dreamspawn because while it's still by all accounts still essentially an ooze, the Dreamspawn template turns it into an Outsider, which also makes it easily summonable/bindable.
So I found this creature that even by its own lore works fantastically with a Necromancer looking to boost his undead with non-undead (I go into detail regarding this request in this thread here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v2ma?Planar-Ally-and-Necromancers ), and the creature in question is called the Hungry Fog.
Even its bestiary entry says it works great with undead since it has a Negative Energy Affinity and deals damage purely through Negative Energy, but the problem I'd run into that I'm sure anyone who's about to look that creature up is that it's an Ooze, and by RAW I don't know how one would go about summoning, Calling/Binding, or otherwise controlling an Ooze. That said, the Hungry Fog's Negative Energy Affinity got me thinking, perhaps there are other creatures out there that have a similar ability on their stat sheets that I COULD look at.
Then my problem is that it becomes next to impossible to find creatures through things like pfsrd's creature search functionality by their defensive abilities, so I'm putting my hopes in the Paizo forums that even if there doesn't exist any search functions that maybe there still might be some of you out there that can think of more Non-Undead that would still fall under the banner of "has Negative Energy Affinity".
I'm liking your idea for already undead Outsiders, I've made a few of my own from some of the Angels and Devils we've fought during the course of our Vengeance campaign, so the thought of others that have already been created being sent my way seems like a good fit. Probably going to avoid any liches though for the same reasons you point out a Daughter wouldn't fit, while there IS a generic templated creature in a statblock my character I feel would be of a lower rank than a lich and they also retain class levels when gaining the template.
Well unfortunately clerics don't really have access to Planar Binding without making use of a UMD check, and I'm already spreading my funds thin enough that I'd rather not have to start resorting to using mid-level scrolls from other classes.
I'm also asking this on a pre-emptive basis for my GM, like I said I'm going to have to wait a little bit before I can actually get down to calling Allies to assist with my efforts, so until I can actually get that train rolling I'm looking to give him some kind of list of creatures that Urgathoa might actually _want_ to give me depending on the task I'm setting out to do. After all, if this were something like Asmodeus or something like that knowing what kind of Ally I'd likely get would be a piece of cake, but unfortunately Urgathoa just doesn't have many built-in Outsiders to work with without resorting to the kind of in-depth research or jumping onto trains of logic like we're doing here.
All of this said, once I gain access to the level 6 version, do you guys believe a Daughter of Urgathoa would be an appropriate response to the calling of the spell? If so, do you think it should be one of the named ones or should we take one from another plane so she's still technically an Outsider and just apply a template to show as such?
If only there were some way to search for any and all undead that inhabit that domain, but my searching ability must be weak because I couldn't seem to find any. I did, however, find the Dust Ghoul, which is an undead that spawns and originates from the Earth plane as far as I can tell, so I know there must be more.
Are there any specificities to the unique divine servants Urgathoa has (AKA are they statted?), or are they merely mentioned and nothing more? The Sarcovalt is also interesting and I've taken note of it, but I'd rather keep poking around for options since they don't seem to actually DO all that much, at least when it comes to actual undead-related activities.
As for Daemons, Soul Gems are a very interesting concept that I might just have to take advantage of sometime in the future, especially since my Necromancer has a... unique take on how souls work. I wonder what the ramifications would be of placing a Soul Gem inside the raised body of the person that body used to belong to. (Obviously by RAW it would do nothing, but I'm sure that's just because it's a question the devs just haven't considered.)
So I've been looking over the spell Planar Ally since I think it's a fascinating spell for the purposes of not only Roleplay but also enhancing combat capabilities as well, but speaking as someone who is playing an Urgathoan Necromancer for a Vengeance campaign, I've hit a bit of a roadblock in what would directly benefit me and my playstyle. If I were to summon anything I'd want it to be something that would benefit my character's abilities as well as his undead.
With this in mind, I must also point out that apparently extraplanar undead like Shadows already fill the ranks of what you can officially summon with the spell, but unfortunately the listings of what undead do and don't count as Extraplanar isn't listed in any undead's statblocks as far as I'm aware.
If anyone has any ideas for what Outsiders I could potentially summon with this spell that would benefit a Necromancer, or even just any Undead that would count as Extraplanar enough to be summonable, that would be a great service, thanks.
As Tuvarks has pointed out, that's because the power boost they've received just isn't enough, honestly. As it stands now, even with these changes the Shifter is not an equivalent to other front liner classes like the Fighter, Barb, or even the class that it was compared to when it was introduced: the Paladin.
If you ask me, the easy way to fix this would be to give the Shifter something they can do that literally nobody else can up to this point: allow them to use iteratives in their Natural attacks. While this may not make them the Paladin of nature, I feel like it would make them the Monks of nature, which is close enough in my book to justify the ability.
I figured that earthquakes could still mess with burrowing creatures given that creatures that can swim are still susceptible to being damaged by things like bad enough currents or whirlpools, especially since most non-magical creatures with a Burrow speed don't leave a tunnel behind them because it actually fills in behind them as opposed to basically "swimming" through it.
I mean, to be fair, I've also been told that this section can also sometimes get the developers in to explain their intent which is less homebrew and more errata, though I suppose with it being such a high level spell that makes it less likely that someone will have come across this situation and needed answers.
So pretty much anyone can look at the spell Earthquake and pretty easily determine what it will do to most creatures in most situations, but there's one situation that I find is curiously absent that I was hoping to maybe get some insight on, and that's creatures that aren't in a cavern, but are actually in the midst of tunneling through the ground itself, whether through a burrow speed or Earth glide if you're an elemental.
It's fairly obvious that this spell would do SOMETHING to these creatures, but out of everything listed in the spell's various effects I'm having trouble finding one that would fit. I find it hard to believe, for instance, that a creature with a burrow speed could actually be pinned by "falling" debris in their little tunnel, as the act of burrowing is almost like constantly dealing with the threat of a cave-in, and this isn't even touching those with Earth Glide, as that states you can basically move through the ground like it's water.
Might I suggest an errata that takes a beat from Pokemon, where creatures that are burrowing or planted underground aren't pinned but instead take extra damage from getting jostled around by the movements of the earth?
Owen, while I appreciate your input this still keeps the question raised with regards to why grenades are so ungodly expensive in the first place, giving very little relative bang for a lot of bucks. Like I said in my original post, if each individual grenade costs as much as it does in the book then no sane adventurer is going to buy more than one or two of the lower level ones (just in case), and no in-universe military or combat-oriented force is ever going to waste resources on such an inefficient use of monetary spending.
It also doesn't help that Grenades are not honestly that damaging. They compare roughly with the blast heavy weapons but those weapons are infinite use.
This, honestly, is the biggest thing in my mind that leads me to think that at least some of these should be considered reusable. An Alchemist's Fire costing as much as it does makes a sort of sense for the time period Pathfinder found itself in because there's more that one can be used for other than merely combat situations, but a grenade is literally ONLY going to be used for combat, so it makes no sense for it to be so expensive for such little relative payoff.
Like the person above said, a level 20 character buying the most expensive grenade would have to spend a whopping 5% of their gold just to buy it, what self respecting army would actually use these in a combat situation if they're so expensive?!
Literally anything that have Outer Dragons as one of the primary focus of the campaign. As much as I enjoy playing Pathfinder one of the big regrets I have with the lore of the system is that the creatures who made up half of the name of its predecessor get almost no love outside of the standard blurbs about Chromatics and Metallics.
Starfinder is the perfect system to really branch out and use some of the other draconic species Paizo already made and really flesh them out in this world, and I'm eager to see what they come up with.
The Gold Sovereign wrote:
In addition to literally everything listed here, I'm also of the opinion that the lore we DO know about the draconic deities isn't even close to enough. All we know about Apsu, Tiamat, and Dahak is that they're all essentially involved in what amounts to a deific sitcom drama about a husband and wife in a failing marriage with an emo son who likes to set fire to ants in the backyard and will break furniture if he gets overly mad.
I get that Paizo probably doesn't want to incur the wrath of Wizards of the Coast by delving too deeply into the lore of these characters, but Apsu is pretty much already Bahamut-lite and what lore we do have about Tiamat tells us nothing other than that she henpecks her husband/brother/whatever they are to each other, loves her evil son very much, and is apparently so evil that even evil dragons won't worship her or even speak her name. And aside from the spicy rumors that Apsu may have had a child with Iomede that became one of her heralds there's pretty much no interaction with them and the rest of the pantheon, which sucks hard.