Edit: Which suggests another way to analyze the classes: assign points to class features and proficiency bumps, and see how much each class "spends" by
each odd level.When I looked at doing this, one of the big hangups I ran into is that "every class gets at least M in class DC/spells" but that proficiency is massively more useful if you're "casting arcane spells" than for like "Fighter class DC".
The other thing I keep running into is whether "proficiencies you're not likely to use" matter. Like monks and champions are the only legendary armor classes- Champions get it in all armor types and Monks only get it with unarmored defense; but does that matter? Fighters getting Legendary proficiency in simple weapons doesn't seem to matter much, nor does "proficiency in kinds of armor you're not wearing." So do we budget "the champion advances proficiencies in all armors" or just "the champion advances proficiency in the armor you want"?
Slightly off topic, so spoilering.
Ribbons are 0-1 points. Stuff that is technically worth a feat as described above, but are very niche or more or less baseline might not be worth even a point, or might be worth 1. Everyone gets trained in unarmored, so no points for that, for example. Also going here is stuff that technically offers you a choice of options, but the other choices aren't easily accessible to you once you've made your decision. Getting to choose which tradition you cast in technically should be a feat, and IS more valuable than not getting to choose, but once you choose you're locked in and it isn't particularly easy to swap it out. So I give 1 point for being able to choose a tradition, while basic trained in casting and class DCs is 0 points. Armor, meanwhile, merely involves putting on a different item for the day. Might not be a great choice, but it is there without retraining or a lot of effort.
Class Feat+ is of course generally inaccessible through mere feats, so legendary saves/perception/casting would all go here. Also going here would be stuff that is accessible via a feat, but not anywhere near the level you get it. So if you got master save at level 11, that's a bit more valuable than getting a master save at 15-17, when canny acumen kicks in. Expert at martial weapons is VERY valuable if you get it at level 1 (3-4pts), still valuable at level 5 (2-3pts), and just above baseline at level 13 (1-2pt).
I don't think I'd recommend trying to build a class this way, but it might be worth evaluating if you're way off or generally on track powerwise.
You can cast a lot of True Strike per day, especially when you start using a Staff of Divination (perhaps in a different form with better weapon traits, thanks to a Shifting rune). So yeah, any magus has to be balanced around the possibility that you have a lot of True Strike available.
I challenge you to define "a lot." To give me a number of rounds and number of expected attack rolls this is will cover. Are you assuming the Magus will move...ever? Use a shield? Or Shield. Because this sounds like something that sounds scary in theory but in actual play comes up extremely short.
Whatever happens, the Magus can't be allowed to end up like the Alchemist, in terms of proficiency, I stand by my idea of "Arcane Form Master Boost"
My Alchemist player just tried to figure out what they were doing wrong-- the combination of not being able to throw with her key stat, not having bombs that are actual saving throws, and being expert with only Quicksilver as a +1 patch for such an extreme drawback was maddening.
How would delayed profiency add up in that point thing? so trained in weapons from 1-6, expert from 7-14, then master 15 onwards, while magic trained be from 1-8, expert from 9-16, then master 17 onwards?
I'm going to use "(Almost) every class gets access to this by this level" as my baseline, and count up to 4 levels in either direction as "more or less" baseline, so no modifier. So Expert in simple weapons at 13 is 0 points. Expert in all Martial weapons at 13 is 2 points, since it is technically possible to get that with a feat even if you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get there. Expert in Simple weapons/Some martial weapons at 5 or 7 is also a feat, maybe 3 points, while all martial Weapons at 1 or 5 is worth 4 or so.
Trained spellcasting or class DCs is 1 point, possibly 0. Spellcasting at expert or higher when it is at the expected level for a caster is 2 points. If it's delayed, like on the warpriest, maybe just 1 point. I'd likewise assign the class DC bumps at 1 point each, as there's not a lot of variation on those and they apply to far fewer options than spells do, but they're aren't worthless and most casters don't get Class DC boosts at all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think the martial is going to be too jealous of the Magus getting 5 rounds of nova when THEY get their own scaling combat buffs like Rage, Sneak Attack, Divine Ally, and the like.
I'd disagree, especially if the base proficiency is assumed to match martials and then True Strike / Spellstrike lets them spike harder than any of the scaling combat buffs you mentioned in both accuracy and damage.
The closest of the buffs you mentioned would likely be Sneak Attack - but unlike a rogue, people are advocating for full martial weapon proficiency which means a Magus is likely to be using a 2-handed weapon (+shield cantrip) before their damage spike (unless spellstrike specifically demands one-handed weapons). Not to mention that scaling cantrips used with spellstrike would increase faster and better than added sneak attack damage without having any limit on use.
So even after the Magus blows their nova, master/master proficiency would leave their accuracy about equal to a martial with equal/more damage due to unlimited spellstrike scaling cantrip use. So being roughly equal normally and also having the ability to nova would make the martial feel rather redundant in my opinion.
A Fighter/Wizard can get True Strike just as often as a theoretical Magus. Magus would just have access to it sooner.
Except a current Fighter/Wizard needs to spend multiple class feats to match a delayed version of this theoretical Magus while the Magus is taking class feats of their own to enhance their power & options further.
Also preparing True Strike is kind of a waste when the great benefit of Magus is adding Strike + Spell damage. True Strike is best seen as a clutch, not as the core.
Clutch or not, I'd view it as an important consideration that a theoretical Magus would have access to such an accuracy booster as part of their base kit without spending any resources to access it (and thus spending those resources elsewhere).
---
Overall - if Spellstrike ends up as anything even remotely satisfying, I would 100% never play a pure martial class again if the Magus had equal proficiency/accuracy at base (kinda like vs PF1 martials). If the class is to be balanced, I'd see it that something needs to give from the base chassis - with weapon proficiency being one of the top candidates to balance their damage spike from spellstrike.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So being roughly equal normally and also having the ability to nova would make the martial feel rather redundant in my opinion.
Obviously, but I don't think anyone other than you has actually suggested that be the dynamic.
So being roughly equal normally and also having the ability to nova would make the martial feel rather redundant in my opinion.Obviously, but I don't think anyone other than you has actually suggested that be the dynamic.
In fairness, I kind of did.
And I stand by that. Yes, the Magus will get feats to improve spellstrike. Every other martial is also getting their own nova or attack improvement options, so considering what the Magus is getting while also not looking at what the other classes got instead seems a bit unfair.
I'd disagree, especially if the base proficiency is assumed to match martials and then True Strike / Spellstrike lets them spike harder than any of the scaling combat buffs you mentioned in both accuracy and damage.
The closest of the buffs you mentioned would likely be Sneak Attack - but unlike a rogue, people are advocating for full martial weapon proficiency which means a Magus is likely to be using a 2-handed weapon (+shield cantrip) before their damage spike (unless spellstrike specifically demands one-handed weapons). Not to mention that scaling cantrips used with spellstrike would increase faster and better than added sneak attack damage without having any limit on use.
I also disagree here, because that's ignoring the action cost. For the first paragraph, how is a Magus going to cast a cantrip, a shield, AND true strike all in the same round? Ignoring the shield, that's still (presumably) 1 attack roll a round.
Your second paragraph sounds more like an argument against spellstrike, not True Strike.
Clutch or not, I'd view it as an important consideration that a theoretical Magus would have access to such an accuracy booster as part of their base kit without spending any resources to access it (and thus spending those resources elsewhere).
They're spending all their spell slots. Those are a resource. They're also not likely to get any class features beyond proficiency bumps after 1st level. That's also a resource.
If the magus focus power is not a direct attack or a way to add elemental damage to their attacks for a minute, or something similar, then giving them less than or equal to the spells per day of a bard or druid is going to not feel much like a casting class. The point of the 1E magus is to cast spell slot spells a lot.
Giving them special cantrips sounds like a needless complexity when the basic concept is cast a spell and attack with a weapon each round. To be honest, If the MC caster/Melee character had a feat that let them move and attack or move as a part of a somatic action, I think they would already be where I would expect a magus to end up.
If it becomes its own class, Expert weapon Proficiency with a lot of spell slots (like equal to a wizard without a divine bond), and a way to get some kind of +2 circumstance bonus to attack rolls is going to feel a lot more like a magus, than a Master/Master class with reduced spell slots.
Spellstrike as one action metamagic feat that lets you get to add the damage of your melee weapon to an offensive spell, without requiring an extra attack roll would be about perfect for bypassing expert weapon proficiency and make casting cantrips in melee well worth it. Electric Arc against 2 adjacent enemies would be brutal.
True strike also usually isn't a buff… it's usually better to attack twice than to attack once with true strike…
Disagree.
Plenty of times where people go up against high AC individuals and swinging with their 2nd or 3rd strike has the dice work against them more than for them, or if they're using nova capabilities and don't want them to be wasted on a bad roll, which is very easily possible.
Or, if you're facing enemies with concealment or cover, it's good to bypass that similar to the reasons above.
True strike also usually isn't a buff… it's usually better to attack twice than to attack once with true strike…Disagree.
Plenty of times where people go up against high AC individuals and swinging with their 2nd or 3rd strike has the dice work against them more than for them, or if they're using nova capabilities and don't want them to be wasted on a bad roll, which is very easily possible.
Or, if you're facing enemies with concealment or cover, it's good to bypass that similar to the reasons above.
Against concealment it's obviously great. But if you're talking about expected value against high AC individuals it's not as good as you think.
Archetypes are a whole different kettle of fish. I'm a strong advocate for Master in weapons on Magus, but I'd be completely against an Archetype that gives you that since such an Archetype could go on a Wizard or Bard and really screw up game balance quite a bit.
That is why i said he was addressing Archetypes specifically; and he also mentions that a Class can have whatever it needs to fill its role properly. It has been pointed out that Martial Classes, like Champion and Monk, get up to Master Prof in casting; though this is at the cost of versatility. Looking at Warpriest i would argue that the versatility of a full spell list would come at the cost of a proficiency. That's just speculation on my part with what content we currently have though.
Giving Magus an easy access to a +2 status bonus, similar to a Druids Wild Shape, seems the simplest way to balance the numbers; and can give more design space to lean into new concepts.Couple of things: 1, using a spell to patch instead of buff still seems wrong. That was how PF1 got through the day, and it worked for that system, but in PF2 I think we can design better. If the class is expected to act as if it had full martial proficiency in most cases, it is easier and cleaner simply to give the class full proficiency, since you have to balance around that either way.
2 If in the end they are restricted to Expert weaponry, then I would expect instead of a patch that they instead get other class features that makes fighting work without that extra +2. They can hit harder, get to swing twice and take the higher, have feats with some kind of effect on a miss but not critical miss, use Str as their casting ability (mostly kidding on this one), easy access to a debuff that benefit everyone instead of just the Magus, something. Heck you can do different things and have that be your class path (I'd be much more sanguine about a patch-buff if it was an option and not the default, in fact).
3 I don't think the status bonus on Wildshape is intended to make up the proficiency gap as much as keep the spells relevant past their pre-written heightened conditions, but I could be wrong. It will admittedly have that effect, more or less, though the interaction with Inspire Courage is unfortunate.
I guess it's my fault that i didn't really expand on this too much. The way i view it currently is;
1) Master/Master Proficiency with full spell list; but a real lack of new class features
2) Expert/Master Proficiency with full spell list; but with a good amount of new class features to fill the lack of Proficiency
The math buffer i suggested here was indeed to give more room into new and interesting class features, without the worry of Proficiency. Much of which you detailed out rather well.
3) Master/Master Proficiency with no spell list; basically becoming an Arcane Champion
I also stress that this is based off what content we currently have to go on; and i believe, when asked, some Devs said they weren't sure where they'd even start with designing the class for this edition, so technically anything is fair game.
Fair enough.
Option 1 is pretty much where I see the class, with the bulk of the class features coming through in feats. For the Magus, I think that would work best.
Option 3 I assume we'll get in due time. The Kineticist seems like a good option, as does the Bloodrager, or a wholly new class.
Option 2 is certainly a viable option for other Gishes though. In fact, I would want MOST of these to eventually be options for some kind of Gish or Gish-lite. The Occultist/Antiquarian will need more variation of approaches out of the box than a Magus (I've been pushing the Magus as an any tradition caster, but admittedly it makes even more sense on the Antiquarian looking at their spell list). If the Inquisitor becomes a full class and not bundled into something else, then the Judgment mechanic is a great hook to place a few different mechanics onto the class. Off the top of my head, one that does persistent damage, one that places a debuff, one that gives you a buff against that enemy, and one that gives you a fortune effect on your attack or damage rolls all seem like likely judgements.
I speak on Option 2 last because in this thread, myself included, we're all focusing on the Magus, but the Magus is likely not going to be the only Gish. Due to how spellstrike works, and how that is likely to be their Marquee ability, I really do think a full martial weapon proficiency is needed. That doesn't mean it's needed for every gish though.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I strongly believe that there is no point in making a new class that does not have at least one unique and interesting class feature that is not just aligning proficiencies in a slightly different way, especially if that new way is just equal to what can be done with MC feats.
The key to a magus will be making some kind of spell strike or spell combat feature that makes the class able to incorporate a weapon attack into the routine of casting a spell without spending all of their actions every turn to do so. The best proficiencies for the class to have will be entirely dependent upon how that feature works.
Sure we do. But this thread is about Gish proficiencies. That thread is allá: What NEW classes do you hope to see out of pf2e
I strongly believe that there is no point in making a new class that does not have at least one unique and interesting class feature that is not just aligning proficiencies in a slightly different way, especially if that new way is just equal to what can be done with MC feats.
The key to a magus will be making some kind of spell strike or spell combat feature that makes the class able to incorporate a weapon attack into the routine of casting a spell without spending all of their actions every turn to do so. The best proficiencies for the class to have will be entirely dependent upon how that feature works.
I kinda agree. But also kinda think there is room for more of a straight hybrid.
Luckly, we can actually have it both ways.
Master/Master
1 slot per level up to 9, 2 cantrips.
Martial weapons, medium armor, and 8hp.
SpellStrike at -5 MAP, and Spell Combat for +5 AC vs OA's triggered when casting.
Dual Devotion (level 2): You can take the Advanced Maneuver, Advanced Arcana, and Arcane School Spell feats without qualifying for the prerequisites.
The rest are feats. So you just need to print...
4 "MC Wizard" feats: Spell Recall (basic/expert/master MC Spellcasting slots), extra cantrips
2 "MC Fighter" feats: heavy armor, opportunity attack.
2-3 Improve MC feat: Improved(level 8)/Greater(14)/Master(20) Dual Deviton
Prerequisite: Advanced Maneuver and Advanced Arcana feats.
You gain one wizard or fighter feat. For the purpose of meeting its prerequisites, your wizard or fighter level is equal to half your character level + 2/4/6.
Which leaves room for ~25 unique feats like Improved SpellStrike, Improved Spell Combat, and the big list of Arcane Pool/Magus Arcana (focus spells).
Also, Bespell Weapon should just be in the feat list.
So if you want to build a hybrid, you can just grab the wizard and fighter feats. IF you want unique stuff, stick with the magus feats. Or any combination in between.
I am for a Magus heavily in favor of Master/Master One Good save likely Will other two lesser. Spellstrike needs to be the main niche of the class with two subschools either melee or ranged with no way to get both. 8HP 2+int skills. Int main stat(which is why Master weapons is needed since they will be behind a primary martial to hit for many levels and item bonus make up for this) their class feats should have a small selection of both combat or spell feats but should mainly focus on arcana feats that bleed the line. 2 slots per level. Spell combat should be a feat as it isn't as important as Spellstrike but still fits a niche of being able to cast and attack and still have 1 action left over for casting buffs or non-attack spells.
Let me refine my suggestion a bit to make use of existing MCD feats, and make it feel more like your actually doing both classes. Still leaves plenty of room for Arcane Pool feats.
1 slot per level up to 9 (+2 cantrips from MCD).
Medium armor, 8hp, (+martial weapons from MCD).
Int skills (+arcana and athletics from MCD).
Dual Devotion (level 1): You gain Wizard Dedication and Fighter Dedication feats, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. You cannot select another dedication feat until you have two more fighter and two more wizard dedication feats.
*Now you can readily pick up extra slots from Basic/Expert/Master Wizard Spellcasting, Opportunity attack for the fighter, and the fighter/wizard feats. Also expandable in the future.
Dual Devotion Expert (level 7): You gain Diverse Weapon Expert and Expert Wizard Spellcasting feats, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.
*Somehow seems more flavorful this way than just giving expert.
Dual Devotion Master (level 13): You gain Master Wizard Spellcasting even if you do not meet the prerequisites. In addition, your proficiency for simple and martial weapons is increased to expert. This counts as a Fighter Achytpe feat.
*Since fighter does not have a master weapon feat. Also, your second dedication for both classes, leaving things open for other MCD.
Expert Maneuver (feat, level 12) Prerequisite: Advanced Maneuver feat
You gain one fighter feat. For the purpose of meeting its prerequisites, your fighter level is equal to your level -4. Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you select it, you gain another fighter feat.
Expert Arcana (feat, level 12) Prerequisite: Advanced Arcana feat
You gain one wizard feat. For the purpose of meeting its prerequisites, your wizard level is equal to your level -4. Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you select it, you gain another wizard feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It would be fascinating to see a mirrored magus archetype: One for casters to gain martial proficiencies/feats, and another for martials to gain casting proficiencies/feats. I realize I am essentially describing multiclass archetypes, but it would be interesting to see how a Bard/Magus(caster) or a Champion/magus(martial) would look like. Probably insanity. I like insanity!
It would be fascinating to see a mirrored magus archetype: One for casters to gain martial proficiencies/feats, and another for martials to gain casting proficiencies/feats. I realize I am essentially describing multiclass archetypes, but it would be interesting to see how a Bard/Magus(caster) or a Champion/magus(martial) would look like. Probably insanity. I like insanity!
Ive actually been wondering for a while if we might eventually see 'alternative' archetype entrances, especially for the multiclasses.
Ive actually been wondering for a while if we might eventually see 'alternative' archetype entrances, especially for the multiclasses.
I think that's a design space that's open, and would be very appropriate for classes like Fighter in which martial classes get very little benefit from the dedication as it currently stands.