Do you think Iron Command will be buffed from Mental damage to Spirit damage? It seem silly it doesn't work on mindless creatures which seems like Paizo was trying to subtly nerf the Tenets of Evil Champions vs the Tenets of Goood Champions with how useful the Tenets of Good Reactions are.
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Do you think Iron Command will be buffed from Mental damage to Spirit damage? It seem silly it doesn't work on mindless creatures which seems like Paizo was trying to subtly nerf the Tenets of Evil Champions vs the Tenets of Goood Champions with how useful the Tenets of Good Reactions are.
Evil is weak, for dorks and must be crushed. Obviously
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Do you think Iron Command will be buffed from Mental damage to Spirit damage? It seem silly it doesn't work on mindless creatures which seems like Paizo was trying to subtly nerf the Tenets of Evil Champions vs the Tenets of Goood Champions with how useful the Tenets of Good Reactions are.Evil is weak, for dorks and must be crushed. Obviously
Lawful Evil very specifically.
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Do you think Iron Command will be buffed from Mental damage to Spirit damage?
Well...
Page 117: In the Iron Command, Selfish Shield, and Destructive Vengeance reactions, the extra damage on Strikes is your choice of "spirit or void" instead of "evil or negative".
Yes..? No..? Sort-of?
The damage types were already looked at. And changed appropriately.
And it is pretty clear that with the Mental trait on the Iron Command reaction that it won't work on mindless creatures anyway - regardless of damage type.
So... what are you asking about and expecting?
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Lawful Evil very specifically.Do you think Iron Command will be buffed from Mental damage to Spirit damage? It seem silly it doesn't work on mindless creatures which seems like Paizo was trying to subtly nerf the Tenets of Evil Champions vs the Tenets of Goood Champions with how useful the Tenets of Good Reactions are.Evil is weak, for dorks and must be crushed. Obviously
Asmodeus as biggest dork: confirmed.
It seem silly it doesn't work on mindless creatures
Why?
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Do you think Iron Command will be buffed from Mental damage to Spirit damage? It seem silly it doesn't work on mindless creatures which seems like Paizo was trying to subtly nerf the Tenets of Evil Champions vs the Tenets of Goood Champions with how useful the Tenets of Good Reactions are.Evil champion is mostly weak because of the self only restriction, though the reactions themselves are also meh.
To put it another way, monsters have 4 targets in a standard party. A good champion can usually cover 2-3 of them. An evil champion covers just 1. The good champion is much more likely to have their reaction triggered in a given combat because of basic probability.
Moreover the good champion presents monsters with a catch 22: "attack me and deal with my high hp and ac, or attack other people and deal with the reaction". Evil champion presents them with "attack me and deal with all the problems that entails, or ignore me and suffer no restriction whatsoever." [...]
I'd absolutely agree that both the Desecrator and Antipaladin are hot garbage, but I think you are seriously undervaluing the Tyrant. Unless you are fighting mindless undead or constructs, that one is a beast, especially after the compatibility errata buffs. It just plays completely differently from any good champion, so maybe that gets people confused.
Because the Tyrant is perfectly capable of its own catch 22: "Don't attack me and you die or attack me and die harder". Pick up one of the d10 reach weapons, Reactive Strike and a Fighter feat or two. You simply can't ignore a STR PC dealing two-handed damage to you and blocking your way, so enemies often have literally no choice but to attack you. Then the scaling d6s of persistent mental damage and bonus damage come in. If the enemy kneels, it loses an action and is off-guard to a bunch of people, plus bonus damage. Both outcomes are great.
As a little extra, get Aura of Despair with some fear effects in the party and become the ultimate "no fun allowed" zone for your enemies. Bonus points if people have Dread Striker. We certainly did.
Boom, you have yourself one of the most potent damage dealers in the game, while also being extremely tanky after level 7. Having played it all the way to level 20, the Tyrant absolutely rocks! Dealing 100-200 every turn was pretty normal (yay for several instances of 20 unavoidable mental damage!) and eating crits was rare. Good times :D
I've played a tyrant. I know the hype. It does not measure up.
Dropping prone isn't actually useful because you can't reactive strike/opportunity attack them for dropping prone prior to level 14 (when you have multiple reactions). It's also somewhat rare to have a champion AND someone else with opportunity attacks/reactive strikes. And just dropping prone in that situation isn't actually that big of a penalty. Using it on an enemy that's already prone from the ability is also entirely pointless, since they can just choose to stay prone.
And of course, Tyrant doesn't actually deal that much damage without its off-action abilities. And once your party is dead you will die.
I agree Tyrant is the least bad of the available options, and I absolutely think desecrator and antipaladin need major boosts (which is why I have the houserule I do). But I do not think Tyrant is anywhere near as good as an actual paladin, having played and seen others play both.
I've had quite the opposite experience. Unless you are the only martial in your party, no matter if the others have RS or not, enemies being prone will always be very beneficial. Effectively a free +2 to hit is great for everybody and at least in my groups having multiple instances of RS is common, not that you need it. Giving every martial Fighter accuracy plus the wasted action is enough.
That the Tyrant doesn't deal that much damage without Iron Command is both factually incorrect and largely irrelevant. Any STR martial with a d10 reach weapon automatically deals good damage relative to enemy health. AT level 10 you even get a free stacking fire rune. Sure, it's no Barb or 2h Fighter, but that is just the difference between good and great. And a Tyrant that doesn't regularly get their reaction is either playing poorly or has a bad GM. It really isn't hard to make yourself a big enough threat or nuisance to force enemies to attack you.
Also, no GM worth playing with will rule that prone enemies can stay prone and ignore your ability. That would make the ability worse for no reason and ignore the part that they have to drop prone, which they can't.
Tyrant is a good striker, I agree. It wallops and punishes for hitting back. It's my preferred base for building a death knight type character
I think we can all agree that desecrator and antipaladin do need buffs, though?
Definitely. Apart from just needing better abilities for those two and maybe some QoL for the Tyrant, the biggest thing unholy champions lack is an effective set of feats that support their playstyle.
They have their 1st level super-feats and Aura of Despair at 4th. Then a whole load of nothing worthwhile until the relatively decent Gruesome Strike at 12th. Finally Instrument of Slaughter at 16th.
Keeping in mind as well that they cannot use a lot of Champion feats - not that the feat list is particularly good in the first place - and receive little benefit from many others, that isn't even remotely enough.