I was kind of spitballing with a friend about dumb stuff you can do in Pathfinder builds, and we kind of discovered an interesting combo.
The Versatile Design weapon modification allows you to treat a weapon as part of another weapon group. (Obviously this also increases the proficiency requirement so it isn't exactly free)
Sohei monks can flurry of blows with any weapon in a select few weapon groups they choose for weapon training at 6th level. This doesn't include firearms, but does include bows.
This is obviously easier said than done. Monks have no inbuilt methods of supporting firearm usage, but the idea that Equilibrium Clerics are actually legal options for monks is very amusing.
Any other oddities of the rules that allow for really silly things (either functionally workable or not)?
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Or 3 levels of weapon master fighter or 5 levels of regular fighter.
It doesn't have to be from monk
Here's the really funny part
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands
Specific rule over rides general rule.
Your guns now add strength to damage too
Well with a musket. ;)
As a DM I wouldn't allow strength bonus added to damage for a firearm shot.
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Ascetic Style only works for a melee weapon. However, you can make firearms part of the Monk or the Bow weapon group via Versatile Design.
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Or 3 levels of weapon master fighter or 5 levels of regular fighter.
It doesn't have to be from monk
Here's the really funny part
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands
Specific rule over rides general rule.
Your guns now add strength to damage tooyou need sohei to get the ‘flurry with bow weapon group if you have weapon training’ ability.
Unless you argue for Ascetic Style feat chain getting there.
Right. you still need sohei levels to get the flurry ability, but then it works with any weapons you have weapon training with
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
if they CANT add str to damage with guns, or bows, or crossbows, or anything else they have weapon training in, flurry needs a rewrite to stipulate that like the Zen archer archetype had to do
but RAW guns add str to damage if you can flurry with them.
a sohei 6/trench fighter 5 adds str and dex to damage. and if you can pull off kirin style, you can add some int in there eventually
I'm thinking the Weapon Modifiation to put your firearm in the Monk Weapon Group and then take Ascetic Style Feats.
"A melee weapon cannot be considered part of a weapon group for ranged weapons, and vice versa." Nothing official, but there are 36 weapons in the monk weapon group (with unarmed strike), with 34 of those being classified as melee. That sure looks like a "melee weapon group" to me!
Ascetic Style only works for a melee weapon. However, you can make firearms part of the Monk or the Bow weapon group via Versatile Design.I'm confused. I can't find where Ascetic Style says it can't be used with melee weapons only.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus with the chosen melee weapon
This build remember me the movie equilibrium where is monks whit gun's and katanas
Well with a musket. ;)
As a DM I wouldn't allow strength bonus added to damage for a firearm shot.
Oh so this lets you do this with Sacred Fist Warpriest, nice. You still sadly lack the feat support since Sacred Fist robs you of most of them, but cool never the less.
So if the gun is TECHNICALLY a thrown weapon, FSMonk is proficient and can flurry.
Being in the thrown weapon group does not make it a thrown weapon. Just the same as being in the monk weapon group does not make it a monk weapon. In general, if the phrase "weapon group" is not used, weapon groups aren't involved.
The CRB actually has rules for "thrown weapons", and the term shows up in the CRB's index (just like "monk weapons"). The rules aren't clear what precicely counts as a thrown weapon, but they are clear enough that it's about, well, throwing them.
Well with a musket. ;)
"Prerequisites: (...) Weapon Focus with your deity’s favored melee weapon."
Here's the really funny part
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands
Specific rule over rides general rule.
Your guns now add strength to damage too
That's nothing new, Double Slice alwas did that when TWFing pistols (or one-handed crossbows, somethign even possible in the CRB!). Two-Weapon Rend also works...
I see another problem: reloading...
The whole "Versatile Design" thing opens up so many problems.
Perhaps the biggest issue is with the Brawler: Brawlers are automatically proficient with all weapons from the Close Weapon Group. Without exception.
This means that they don't need to spend any other resources: They can modify any eligible weapon to become a close weapon and then they are good to go.
Now, what determines whether a weapon is eligible?
Well, that's also unclear: By RAW, weapon groups aren't categorized by ranged or melee, and many weapon groups are mixed, containing ranged, melee and thrown weapons.
Since the Close Weapon Group is mixed, this means that a brawler could technically be proficient in literally any weapon, for the low price of 500 gp.
Is it ridiculous cheese? Obviously. Whoever came up with this mechanic really should have known they were playing with fire.
I see another problem: reloading...
I see a solution: Shadowshooting...
By RAW, weapon groups aren't categorized by ranged or melee, and many weapon groups are mixed, containing ranged, melee and thrown weapons.
Yeah, well, this is on a level with "nothing says a style feat's stance ever ends". Yes, that's RAW, but you won't find a single GM on the planet that plays it like that.
The only two weapon groups where one type (melee or ranged) isn't prevalent with over 94% are spears and thrown (78% and 67%, respectively), with the latter group defined by the ability to make ranged attacks, and every melee weapon therein has a listed range. Spear's 23:5 ratio sounds pretty clear, too, if you write it that way.
Brawler getting free proficiency is mechanically irrelevant. They're already proficient with the best light weapon (necessary if they want to keep a -2 penalty), and exotic weapons actually do require a feat.
Oh so this lets you do this with Sacred Fist Warpriest, nice. You still sadly lack the feat support since Sacred Fist robs you of most of them, but cool never the less.Well with a musket. ;)
As a DM I wouldn't allow strength bonus added to damage for a firearm shot.
Ha I wasn't even thinking that. I was thinking a cleric with a dip in monk. :)
"Prerequisites: (...) Weapon Focus with your deity’s favored melee weapon."Well with a musket. ;)
So take the feat. Or do what Garbage Tier Waifu said above. :)
Brawler getting free proficiency is mechanically irrelevant. They're already proficient with the best light weapon (necessary if they want to keep a -2 penalty), and exotic weapons actually do require a feat.
So, the consensus seems to be that in following the "Specific beats General" rule, brawlers still need to get the feat for modified exotic weapons?
Mechanically, I agree that two-weapon fighting imposes some restrictions on exploiting this, but keeping a modified scorpion whip in your off hand just in case could be useful. Even if they need a feat to make it work, that isn't really an issue for a brawler.
So, the consensus seems to be that in following the "Specific beats General" rule, brawlers still need to get the feat for modified exotic weapons?
It's not a case of "Specific beats General", because it's actually something independent from proficiency. The rules simply say that "An exotic weapon that receives modifications cannot be wielded without the Modified Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Adept feat (see page 11)." It doesn't mention proficiency, just that you're unable to wield the weapon. It's basically like an oversized weapon - you may be theoretically proficient with a large greatsword, and you may have strength enough to lift it and have three arms, but you can't wield it (without e.g. Titan Fighter) because the rules outright say so.
keeping a modified scorpion whip in your off hand just in case could be useful.
The way I understand it, if you use a Scorpion Whip as a Whip (i.e. with the 15ft reach), it no longer counts as a light weapon. You'd also need EWP (Whip), so we're talking about two feats and an added -2 penalty on a class with no attack roll boost.
I think with Weapon Adept, WFocus (Whip), Whip Mastery, you can wield a small-sized Versatile Design-modified whip, and with Irongrip Gauntlets, don't suffer an increased penalty. I don't know about you, but I don't see as spending 2 feats and 4.5k gp to make a garbage class slightly more functional as 'problematic'.
So take the feat.
You can't meet the prerequisites if the deity doesn't have a favored melee weapon. If you're a Cleric of Cixyron, you cannot possibly have "Weapon Focus with your deity’s favored melee weapon", and thus can't qualify for Crusader's Flurry.
I think you ultimately end up with whip proficiency from being a bard, right?
Seems like this build wants 2 levels of juggler for the "always have a free hand to reload" ability.
So you want to ignore the specific rules that Modified Weapons presents (...) You need to be proficient with the weapon and pay its additional qualification before you can use the modification.
It's ridiculous that you chide someone for ignoring the rules, and then you go on and literally make up some rules.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how weapon modifications work. You don't "use" a modification. As the name says, it modifies the weapon, which means it is part of the weapon itself once applied. It is no longer an item of its own at that point.
I think it's clear that modified simple and martial weapons use the normal proficiency system. Under that presumption, a Modified Longsword (Versatile Design: Close) is an exotic weapon in the 'close' and 'heavy blades' weapon group. A Brawler is proficient with exotic weapons in the close weapon group. Therefore, a Brawler is proficient with said Modified Longsword.
So take the feat.You can't meet the prerequisites if the deity doesn't have a favored melee weapon. If you're a Cleric of Cixyron, you cannot possibly have "Weapon Focus with your deity’s favored melee weapon", and thus can't qualify for Crusader's Flurry.
Dammit! Stupid selective reading! I totally missed the melee part. :(
Thanks for pointing it out. I would have hate to have made that mistake.
More important question: Can you FoB with one or more potatoes?
The way I understand it, if you use a Scorpion Whip as a Whip (i.e. with the 15ft reach), it no longer counts as a light weapon. You'd also need EWP (Whip), so we're talking about two feats and an added -2 penalty on a class with no attack roll boost.
Sure, but if you just use it as a scorpion whip, you're still talking about a light, one handed reach weapon.
