Is that Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13?
Let's see, old age is -2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
Changeling adds -2 Con and +2 Wis/Cha
Totals: Str -2, Dex -2, Con -4, Int +1, Wis +3, Cha +3
So that suggests the base stats you bought were Str 12, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 10
I make that a cost of 2 + 2 + 13 + 1 + -1 + 0. Total: 17. So unless I made a mistake, you have more points available.
Making a character who depends on Constitution but who gets -4 to Constitution is always going to be very painful. Couldn't you be, say, 50 years old and get only the middle-aged penalties?
Is that Str 10, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13?
Let's see, old age is -2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
Changeling adds -2 Con and +2 Wis/Cha
Totals: Str -2, Dex -2, Con -4, Int +1, Wis +3, Cha +3
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the penalties and bonuses for Middle Aged and old should stack, so -3 STR/DEX/CON, +2 INT/WIS/CHA from age.
So pre racial/age that would be STR:13, DEX:13, CON:18, INT:10, WIS:8, CHA:9 (which is a 20 point buy)
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I think you're right. So, a correction to my earlier comments:
Making a character who depends on Constitution but who gets -5 to Constitution is always going to be very painful.
For example, a younger Changeling could, with the same points buy, have stats of something like:
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14
Better in literally every way.
Yeah, I'm afraid you made a pretty big mistake there.
This isn't a question of min-maxing. This is building a wizard with a negative intelligence.
You're going to have a really, really rough time. I'd rebuild or create a new character.
Maybe your GM is new, but he should have told you this is a terrible idea.
You could have picked one of the variant changeling heritages than doesn't lose CON and made your character middle aged or just old fluff wise, not mechanically.
Unsaveable as is. Really, nothing to be done. Make her a nature oracle or a treesinger druid (or even a forester hunter) for a different wood flavour and there's possibilities (even as an old stormborn changeling), but as is? Doomed.
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I'm sorry, but I dont think you can make her work as is. Maybe, maybe if you went with Overwhelming Soul, but then you get even weaker so... Yeah, these arent good stats for anything. If you were starting at a level high enough to buy stat items then it could be salvageable, but taking huge penalty to physical stats on a class that needs them is bad.
leaving her with a grand total stat line of 10, 10, 13, 12, 12, 13.
That's an aggressively bad stat array, actually. Mind switching it up or is it set?
20 PB
Str 13, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
After racials and age modifiers:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 11
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She has Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perception, Craft (armor), Craft (carpentry), and Knowledge (nature) (with a trait giving her Knowledge (local) as a class skill should she get the intelligence to take more ranks).
What traits have you taken, and can they be changed?
Maybe the better question is, "what is the objective for this character build?"
You keep saying that you are trying to preserve this particular flavor... which flavor is that?
Because right now, you have a turd on your plate. I don't know what flavor you are looking to preserve.
You want your character to be an old woman? With a wood/forest/nature vibe? Changeling, can't forget that, assuming it is part of the flavor you are trying to keep.
You listed Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perception, Craft (armor), Craft (carpentry), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (local) as your major skills. These aren't bad skills, but you don't have the stats to support being the go-to for any of them. Obviously not a skill monkey or party face, but these skills seemed important and thematic in the original post.
Grasping vine shaman.
Make a powerful Charisma-based character... a Sorceress or an Oracle, a Bard (everyone loves Bards). Then take Leadership.
Make your actual character, umm, better than this one. Have the old lady as a Cohort.
OK, not a druid (probably not a hunter or ranger either), wants to be a tank, wood/plant flavour, middle aged or old stormborn changeling (so either -1/-1/-3/+1/+3/+3 or -3/-3/-5/+2/+4/+4 to ability scores).
A kinetic knights' best tricks are when they have an at-will touch attack, or are a melee type with flight; the wood element as your primary one rules both of these out.
How about an oracle with the wood mystery? The druids turned you down but you found magic on your own. The revelations wood armor, wood bond and wooden weapon look a lot like a kinetic knight's abilities. Take the Pei Zin practitioner archetype for herbal healing and you can take a hit as a tank. A touch attack spell gives you a threat when you need one. Later on you can grab an item crafting feat like craft magic arms and armor. And you have potential, unlike said knight, and you get some use out of charisma.
If you want to be tanky, earth needs to be your first or second element for its defense. dir 1/2 your level+/- is the king of the defensive talents.
Wood's defense is...mediocre. -2 con (effectively) for +1 natural armor is a fail.
Based on the background you wrote maybe Horticulturist might be a good fit. As an alchemist you can get away with having only one or two high stats and everything else being low. They also start with light armor Prof. meaning medium armor is just one feat away.
Obviously middle aged is better than old for a melee character who's made no special effort to use the mental stats, though not actually good. Trouble is that kinetic knight (wood) is a very weak choice, stormborn changeling is a third weak choice for melee and they all stack up together to make a character who is inferior to a commoner (NPC class) with moderate optimisation.
If you're just not interested in any source of wood flavour other than kinetic knight (wood) then I guess you get toughness first, weapon focus at 3rd to improve your terrible accuracy, and if you last as long as 5th level you might get combat reflexes (for use with kinetic whip later) followed by mobile gathering at 7. Or maybe kinetic crafting followed by a crafting feat. The big six items (less a weapon) are as useful for you as anyone.
Again Grasping Vine shaman archetype.
Its primary wis secondary cha, has the plant thematics you want, d8 hp, 3/4 bab, medium armor proficiency and 9 level casting.
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I know I could have made something better, I just like to try and make old people work.
The problem is not old age category characters in general, but that you have picked literally one of the worst possible archetypes/classes for an old character, and also did that on a mechanically bad race (and with a bad element to boot).
She knew she wasn't agile enough to throw them, nor was she strong enough to hit things hard, so she let the plants do the work for her.
That doesn't sound like a Kinetic Knight. At all. The Grasping Vine Shaman Ryan Freire mentioned sounds like a good fit, or maybe a Cultivator Bard, Plant Master Hunter, or Leshy Caller Summoner.
This....old kineticists retire, old primary casters soldier on.
Really? I thought Kinetic Knight was more about tankiness and the damage of the blast was kinda separate from the physical strength/dexterity of the person (especially since it's all based on Con)?
You're still attacking. You make melee attacks, which includes attack rolls modified by your strength. It's actually much closer to a traditional martial character than other Kineticists because you're barred from using any other form infusions (that make the blasts more spell-like).
I like Kineticist as a whole (shaman kinda confused me)
*blink blink* Shaman is more confusing than Kineticist?
but the whole base class is kinda broken. Free elemental attacks (some being touch) from pretty good range forever, just for a simple blast?
So? Archers can do the same. Seriously, that Kineticist is somehow overpowered because they don't run out of blasts is a misconception based on thinking of blasts as spells, when they really aren't. Not without wild talents that do cost more burn than you can reduce, at least for most of the character's career.
The DM agreed with me on the power front on a previous character, so if I go normal kineticist, I'd gain a damage did every 3rd level instead of every other.
No offense meant, but the power level of your group must be pitiable if 1d6+1 per two levels is problematic!
Is there a better element than wood to use in the first place?
How about literally anything else?
She knew she wasn't agile enough to throw them, nor was she strong enough to hit things hard, so she let the plants do the work for her.That doesn't sound like a Kinetic Knight. At all. The Grasping Vine Shaman Ryan Freire mentioned sounds like a good fit, or maybe a Cultivator Bard, Plant Master Hunter, or Leshy Caller Summoner.Really? I thought Kinetic Knight was more about tankiness and the damage of the blast was kinda separate from the physical strength/dexterity of the person (especially since it's all based on Con)? Made sense in my head at least lol.
I suppose I can change elements, but I'd like to keep Kinetic Warrior I think. I like Kineticist as a whole (shaman kinda confused me) but the whole base class is kinda broken. Free elemental attacks (some being touch) from pretty good range forever, just for a simple blast? And if you're standing still with supercharge you can just gather power and composite blast every turn as well, doubling the damage or straight up increasing it (or both if you're even higher level). It's just plain nuts how little resources they use for the damage they can deal, especially in a touch attack. So I was intentionally weakening myself by making her melee only and tanky.
The DM agreed with me on the power front on a previous character, so if I go normal kineticist, I'd gain a damage did every 3rd level instead of every other.
Could I mix Overwhelming Soul in and shift her stats around to make it work that way, maybe? Or would that make the elemental defense talents basically useless? Is there a better element than wood to use in the first place? This campaign is going to be using a fair bit of undead but I also noticed the positive blast doesn't hit living...
The good elements for kinetic warrior, in order are Earth>water/aether>wood/void>fire
The key to turning your burn mechanic having kineticist into a front liner means either NOT using burn and damaging your output, or picking elements whose defenses offset the hp loss of burn. Earth rises to the top because its dr is broadly applicable (you can count on physical/weapon damage being prominent in like 99% of campaigns) Aether is good because its defense outright replaces some of your lost burn hp and heals up quickly, loosely tied with water because water allows you to transfer bonuses to the armor and shield you're using plus the utility that debuffs people not immune to cold who get into melee with you. Wood and void's defenses are VERY subpar, and while i used to think fire was good, the limits on when it damages people make it the outright worst.
The problem is, Aging mechanics remove BOTH of your primary stats, dex and con, and give buffs to stats that do basically nothing for the class.
edit: I also forgot that at level 10 water gets a utility that basically equates to a permanent blur..which probably bumps it up into second place as far as good elements for a kinetic knight.
The only way to really make an old age character work (bar full casters) is either an Aasimar with the Age Resistance spell like ability, or a Barbarian with the Spring rage power. I've actually played the latter (went for Rage Prophet), it was really fun and flavourful.
Like others have said, it really hurts Kineticists because you lose a lot from lower Con, and nothing from the bonuses.
Wait, Kineticists are overpowered? Compared to what? Lol.
Regardless, this old woman Kineticist will NOT be overpowered, so no worries there.
The best way to play her is she goes supernova, kills herself with her own blast, and it frees you up to roll an effective and useful character.
May her martyrdom and selfless sacrifice never be forgotten...
The DM agreed with me on the power front on a previous character, so if I go normal kineticist, I'd gain a damage did every 3rd level instead of every other.No offense meant, but the power level of your group must be pitiable if 1d6+1 per two levels is problematic!
Wait, Kineticists are overpowered? Compared to what? Lol.
Kineticists have a high power-floor, but a low power-ceiling. Meaning it's harder to build a really overpowered Kineticist, but it's also harder to build an underpowered one (although the OP seems to have managed it with those stats =P )
If you're in an inexperienced group or playing with an inexperienced GM it's likely that the kineticist will punch through most encounters in a way that other classes can't (or can't do as often without a rest).
So yes in the right group it's OP, and since most Adventure Paths are tailored to those kinds of groups it could absolutely be considered OP.
Unless your GM is running 6+ serious encounters per day a standard kineticist is worse than a lightly optimised sorcerer (one blasting bloodline + one bloodline mutation, best blasting spell each level, no metamagic at all) just blasting away. Drop the kineticist to 1 die/3 levels and there is no imaginable place for it.
A kinetic knight still needs to hit. They're a bit iffy on that with a physical blast because they don't get magic weapons, and because maxing out their burn for elemental overflow makes them dangerously fragile for a melee type so they likely don't do that all the time. A 10-12 ability score in whichever of Str or Dex they use will make them miss far too often. A touch attack (available to fire, water, air or void) can get around that. Make sure you pick up draining infusion and a backup weapon so you're not totally hosed against immune/heavily resistant creatures. If you get fire burning infusion helps too.
Melee allows more damage than the blasting sorcerer mentioned above BTW.
Overwhelming soul is a straight decrease on power compared to a kineticist without that archetype. Don't touch it.
Unless your GM is running 6+ serious encounters per day a standard kineticist is worse than a lightly optimised sorcerer (one blasting bloodline + one bloodline mutation, best blasting spell each level, no metamagic at all) just blasting away. Drop the kineticist to 1 die/3 levels and there is no imaginable place for it.
A kinetic knight still needs to hit. They're a bit iffy on that with a physical blast because they don't get magic weapons, and because maxing out their burn for elemental overflow makes them dangerously fragile for a melee type so they likely don't do that all the time. A 10-12 ability score in whichever of Str or Dex they use will make them miss far too often. A touch attack (available to fire, water, air or void) can get around that. Make sure you pick up draining infusion and a backup weapon so you're not totally hosed against immune/heavily resistant creatures. If you get fire burning infusion helps too.
Eh, properly built kinetic knight should have con and dex relatively close together and they should be the two primary choices, with enough strength to wear the heavy armor you need and not much beyond that. The proper choice of element can offset burn pretty easily. Frexample earth takes two hits where the full amount of DR applies to have offset 1 point of burn. Toughness offsets a point of burn, favored class into HP offsets a point of burn. as a result you can throw 3 points of morning burn at anything and still probably have more hp than most of the party. Eventually elemental overflow offsets another 2 or 3 points of burn.
Yeah, but we're not talking about a properly built kinetic knight. We're talking about a middle-aged (at best) stormborn changeling with 10-12 in Str and Dex, 13-14 Con. My last post mixed general and specific advice, sorry if that wasn't clear.
An earth kinetic knight isn't something I've seen or gamed out. A fire kinetic knight is one I have. Immunity isn't the problem for them (fire immune and not fire subtype means devils and well-prepared druids; not a majority or even a substantial minority of enemies), lacking great defence and being effectively fragile is.
When making a kineticist, your attack stat is almost always more important than your constitution. You will naturally do “ok” damage when you hit. But you need to be able to hit consistently. It’s even more important if you’re using a melee infusion, because you want your iterative attacks to hit too.
Oh, and as for background on the "kineticist OP" judgement:
He's been a DM for a long time. I was throwing 4d6+8 every round, for free, from up to 240ft away (extended + air range doubler). I literally sniped an enemy that was running away because we didn't want to let him escape. If you hit a lot of enemies with one spell your total damage is good, but you expend a spell slot. At this level as a wizard you get a couple 4th level spells, a few 3rd, and 4 to 6 of 2nd on down. You're probably using 2 to 4 spells a fights, mostly lower but maybe a couple Haste every day at least? A 4th level for a bigger bad?
Kineticist doesn't care. Way in the back, 4d6+7 every round before overflow. Channeling some burn into defense, suddenly it's more like 4d6+13 and oh yeah 40% of your arrows just miss me. Coming into melee with me? Up to four rounds of double moves minimum for the average enemy, and you have to get through my allies as well, before I even got the extreme range talent. Oh yeah I'm probably constantly flying too, because wings of air is a 3rd level talent. So no melee unless you can fly (plus a couple movements to catch me as I can fly 60ft and shoot in the same round), and I can burn a little to get half of all ranged attacks to miss. If I have a little burn to spare I can stop rays as well for a round, but I'm mostly targeting the casters with no issues because I'm a freaking sniper.
Unless the DM specifically increased the danger level of the baddies for me, or prepared them a fair bit more (and thus indirectly raised the danger level), the party wouldn't have a fair fight: either I'd be too strong, or they'd be too weak. We nerfed my power together because I basically didn't miss. This was with air blast too, I had electric for the high AC enemies (which means more no missing, or heavy electrical resistance). Yeah it's all or nothing of two greatsword swings, basically, but it's free from a long range sometimes on a touch attack.
Does that all make sense?
All of that does make sense, and the tactics are valid and impressive in the right circumstances, but I just have to ask... Were all your battles in wide-open featureless plains under the open sky? In most Pathfinder encounters I've been in, if you're more than 120 ft from the enemy, you're probably out of line of sight and out of the fight.
The composite longbow can fire 220’ away at only a -2 penalty. With many shot and rapid shot that’s 3d8 base, and you will very likely have additional modifiers to each of those shots from magic weapons and class abilities. The ranged kineticist is not doing anything out of the ordinary for damage.
The composite longbow can fire 220’ away at only a -2 penalty. With many shot and rapid shot that’s 3d8 base, and you will very likely have additional modifiers to each of those shots from magic weapons and class abilities. The ranged kineticist is not doing anything out of the ordinary for damage.
but as above. 220 feet away is very likely out of sight in most environments.
Oh, and as for background on the "kineticist OP" judgement:
He's been a DM for a long time. I was throwing 4d6+8 every round, for free, from up to 240ft away (extended + air range doubler). I literally sniped an enemy that was running away because we didn't want to let him escape. If you hit a lot of enemies with one spell your total damage is good, but you expend a spell slot. At this level as a wizard you get a couple 4th level spells, a few 3rd, and 4 to 6 of 2nd on down. You're probably using 2 to 4 spells a fights, mostly lower but maybe a couple Haste every day at least? A 4th level for a bigger bad?
Kineticist doesn't care. Way in the back, 4d6+7 every round before overflow. Channeling some burn into defense, suddenly it's more like 4d6+13 and oh yeah 40% of your arrows just miss me. Coming into melee with me? Up to four rounds of double moves minimum for the average enemy, and you have to get through my allies as well, before I even got the extreme range talent. Oh yeah I'm probably constantly flying too, because wings of air is a 3rd level talent. So no melee unless you can fly (plus a couple movements to catch me as I can fly 60ft and shoot in the same round), and I can burn a little to get half of all ranged attacks to miss. If I have a little burn to spare I can stop rays as well for a round, but I'm mostly targeting the casters with no issues because I'm a freaking sniper.
Unless the DM specifically increased the danger level of the baddies for me, or prepared them a fair bit more (and thus indirectly raised the danger level), the party wouldn't have a fair fight: either I'd be too strong, or they'd be too weak. We nerfed my power together because I basically didn't miss. This was with air blast too, I had electric for the high AC enemies (which means more no missing, or heavy electrical resistance). Yeah it's all or nothing of two greatsword swings, basically, but it's free from a long range sometimes on a touch attack.
Does that all make sense?
Ranged defence is another matter, but the damage really, truly isn't impressive there. The lightly optimised sorcerer I described would have 2nd level spells to burn by 7th-8th level (whichever that was) and would be doing 2x 4d6+4 with scorching rays on a touch attack with a range of 170' or 180'; more damage, nearly as much range. Others have mentioned how archery puts both your damage and range to shame, and certain archers could be riding a flying mount for significantly better mobility.
Unfortunately, the general consensus here seems right. In mathematical terms, you have too many knowns and not enough (any) unknowns. If you know your age/race/class/ability scores/class/class choices/class archetype, that just doesn't leave anything left. And as others pointed out, Kineticist is a high-floor/low-ceiling class, and the entire reason they're low-ceiling is because they basically can't be improved through equipment or feats. Certainly nothing can be done with 30gp and a single utility talent. I guess Kinetic Cover and just throw up barriers at a range to force enemies to use move actions to get past? You can't be a tank, because you won't have the AC or health for it. I'd say take the Wood Healer talent, but that requires positive energy blasts, and you've already chosen wood blast. Think this is just one of those classic economics choices where something has to give: you can't have something cheaper than usual, and better-made than usual, and get it delivered more quickly than usual; there's always a trade-off.
That’s a much more playable build. Touch attacks would still be vastly preferable, since 16 isn’t that crazy high and you’re 3/4 BAB, but if you keep your burn up you should at least have a fair chance of hitting if you always put your size bonus into strength.
As for earth...yeah, it’s better. I don’t absolutely hate the wood option though, unlike most here. You need to transition to heavy armor as soon as possible, and keep it and your heavy shield enhanced as high as you can for wealth at any given level, but it should be pretty effective against most physical attacks. The new ability score layout makes a huge difference, and while it won’t be STRONG, I’d argue it could keep up with a low-ish balanced party.
I’m not sure why people would say the wood defense is bad. The worst problem is that you don’t have much else to do with your neck slot as a kineticist, unless you are focusing on kinetic fist. Even if using kinetic fist, the newer hand wraps are generally better.
With water defense, you can tack on a shield AC to your defenses, which a kineticist usually won’t have much of anyway.
I’m not sure why people would say the wood defense is bad. The worst problem is that you don’t have much else to do with your neck slot as a kineticist, unless you are focusing on kinetic fist. Even if using kinetic fist, the newer hand wraps are generally better.
With water defense, you can tack on a shield AC to your defenses, which a kineticist usually won’t have much of anyway.
Wood is bad because
1. Natural armor is one of the worst defenses, no protection from touch, and its AC so its a defense that high end "martial" monsters regularly bypass.
2. Wood doesn't scale by level You have to push the rough equivalent of 8 con damage in burn to match the +5 amulet of natural armor, and burn both has a cap, and is needed throughout the day.
3. Wood's defensive kicker talent is on the bad end as well. Only works against melee, doesnt increase your defense at all just deals damage to people who are already hitting you.
Vs Water
1. Water has a couple options depending on you using armor or shield, scales higher even on the shield bonus if you choose to spend burn.
2. Water is ALSO AC, which isn't great but its defensive kicker talents include a dex penalty to most things that get into melee with you, and a permanent blur at 10th level.
Basically earth and water provide the kind of layered defenses that keep you alive at high level play, earth with DR and water with miss chance. Airs defense is very niche but strong given that an air kineticist should be keeping their distance and only mostly engageable by magic or the kinds of weapons their defense works against. Void's defense is incredibly powerful within a rare niche but isn't likely to keep you alive in the same way as anything else, and woods is better than a poke in the eye, but isn't going to prove as useful as any of the others. Fire doesn't have a defensive utility. Their "defensive" is actually an offensive utility, strongest on a grappler character.
From a flavor perspective I view this as really bad because there's no way that the other PCS would bring along a defenseless old man who hasn't learned how to do anything effectively his whole life.