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Yes and we are saying that those shields that are meant to be used with shield blocking and stated wrong need to be fixed.
If the stats aren't going to be fixed then change the price so they reflect how those shield are actually consumables and not permanent items.
If you want to get a +2 bonus to AC would you ever buy a 8.8k gp shield when the same function is done with a 2 gp shield?
Think about that. Are adamantine shields really that much better at getting +2 to AC that they are priced 880 times more expensive then steel shields?
I'm not opposed to fixing the shields like the Adamantine shield or the Arrow Catching shield - I just don't want to see a blanket change that makes Shield Blocking a no-brainer decision with all shields.
There's no good game design reason that all shields have to be equally valid for the Shield Block reaction, or even that all shields should reasonably be able to survive using Shield Block.
There seems to be a perception from some people that if you're not using the Shield Block reaction, your character isn't blocking/deflecting blows with or using their shield. Raise Shield is the entire core base use of a Shield on its own - the Shield Block feat is a special, non-universal technique. The fact that it sounds mundane does not make it 'basic'.
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Well, about the Dagger throwing
I mean, yeah it is of course valid and potentially costly but if you want to make it part of your kit you get the returning rune on your dagger asap (and in low level you can just buy a stack of daggers)
there is no returning rune for a shield
And while I totally get that raising the shield is already blocking attacks in a way I am still not a big fan of how shield block and the stability of shield interacts
it is basically like a feat that lets you attack the enemy and has a (based on lavel) 30% - 80% chance to destroy your weapon
who would destroy their +3 major striking holy flaming weapon for additional damage? no one
who would throw a +3 major striking + whatever dagger if they don't have returning on it? no one
who wants to use shield block on a 20k goldpiece expensive shield if you know it gets shredded? no one
and who would actively choose a feat that has a high chance of shredding part of your core equipment? I can't imagine the number of people is that high
but you get shield block for free and while it feels awesome at low level the shield progression makes it loose its appeal so darn quickly... and you are already used to shield block at that point and BAM - your shield is gone, you just wasted part of your money and your defense is effectively reduced for the remainder of the battle
but we got shield block that reduces damage for free which >seems< to be a valid action for tanks, up to the point where the monster start to deal actual damage
The cases where the damage difference between shield block and not actually save your life get rarer over the levels
If you block to often you need basically a bunch of stacked very expansive and heavy trinkets, even without the magical abilities that are only viable for a short part of the game
There seems to be a perception from some people that if you're not using the Shield Block reaction, your character isn't blocking/deflecting blows with or using their shield. Raise Shield is the entire core base use of a Shield on its own - the Shield Block feat is a special, non-universal technique. The fact that it sounds mundane does not make it 'basic'.
No, the perception of the people is that they have been given a mostly useless class feature / feat (yes I know it is a general feat probably anybody could eventually pick up, however I am at least somewhat sure that regarding design considerations those classes "paid" for the additional feat one way or the other). So either fix shields *or* provide a selection of feats to chose from during character creation (especially Druid) *or* bring back shield proficiency and couple it with the Shield Block feat. The later however would of course also mean no more Monks or Barbarians with a shield because they are not trained to use those unless they spend a feat.
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No one ever said that non-sturdy shield should be equally valid for shield block. I really don't think that blocking 6 damage at level 19 is a no-brainer.
When in addition to the almost meaningless amount of damage you can reduce, your expensive shield explodes forever, then the option/class feature could as well not be there. Just say clearly: "only non-magical and sturdy shields can be used for blocking".
No one ever said that non-sturdy shield should be equally valid for shield block. I really don't think that blocking 6 damage at level 19 is a no-brainer.
Also, if a character has made it to level 10+ and the only reaction they have access to is Shield Block, there's no need to make them unduly agonize over actually using it. That's just mean.
No, the perception of the people is that they have been given a mostly useless class feature / feat (yes I know it is a general feat probably anybody could eventually pick up, however I am at least somewhat sure that regarding design considerations those classes "paid" for the additional feat one way or the other).
Referring to it as useless because its only useful with one type of shield in the Core Book is extreme hyperbole at best. It's an absolutely amazing feature if you use a blocking shield- and there's no real design point to having redundant blocking shields in the core book when you can just list the Sturdy Shield stat block once.
Shields like the arrow catcher may warrant looking at, but they should still only be an upgrade within their specific niche.
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Referring to it as useless because its only useful with one type of shield in the Core Book is extreme hyperbole at best. It's an absolutely amazing feature if you use a blocking shield- and there's no real design point to having redundant blocking shields in the core book when you can just list the Sturdy Shield stat block once.
Shields like the arrow catcher may warrant looking at, but they should still only be an upgrade within their specific niche.
What is hyperbole in wanting to block using most shields in comparison to getting +2 to AC using any shield? And don't get me wrong I do not want to be able to block using any shield, however I do think the ratio of shields that can actually and consistently be used for blocking and those that can not is simply wrong.
In my opinion most shields should be suitable for blocking to various degrees and only a minority should not be able to, however in-game it is exactly the other way round. If out of 10 shields one is the absolute best for blocking, one is made out of glass and the other 8 are somewhere in between this is entirely fine. If however out if 10 shields only one can be used at all and all 9 others can just be used for the additional AC and extra effects this at least feels wrong. The two item power calibration sliders are blocking power and extra power, so at levels 6 and 7 you can either have your 6/24 + good effect shield (e.g. spellguard) or your 10/80 sturdy shield. But where are the 7/38 + moderate effect, 8/52 + lesser effect and 9/66 + least effect shields in between.
Currently those "in between" shields are in supplemental materials, like APs. See for example the Reforging Shield.
I am totally fine with filling that design space - but perhaps the core book, which h has limited space to cover a range of options, isn't the place to do it?
Maybe in the Core Book your goal is to print the statblock for the series of shields that are really good at blocking, and then to cover a range of utility options - while respecting the fact that you have page count limits.
Yeah, there are some misses (arrow catching shield is pretty consumable, though consumables that can eat a deathblow for an ally can at least be pretty clutch) - but that design in general is solid.
Yeah, but the problem is that most of the shields above a certain level you can't even block with once with any safety. They're essentially in the "use one of the core functions of shields and you lose it." Not until you can repair it--period.The Core Function of the Shield is the Raise Shield Action.I agree that's one of its core functions. I simply don't agree its the only one, and with that being the case, the rest of your argument does not follow to me.
Shield Block isn't available to everyone, and isn't required for a shield to reduce incoming damage (by way of increased AC). It is by definition an improvment to the basic functionality of a shield, with limited availability and usage.
Its in no way "core" to the functionality of shields.
Yeah, but the problem is that most of the shields above a certain level you can't even block with once with any safety. They're essentially in the "use one of the core functions of shields and you lose it." Not until you can repair it--period.The Core Function of the Shield is the Raise Shield Action.I agree that's one of its core functions. I simply don't agree its the only one, and with that being the case, the rest of your argument does not follow to me.
Shield Block isn't available to everyone, and isn't required for a shield to reduce incoming damage (by way of increased AC). It is by definition an improvment to the basic functionality of a shield, with limited availability and usage.
Its in no way "core" to the functionality of shields.
Okay fine, lets call it a secondary function
the design is still horrible
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Say I'm using a scimitar, and I like its Forceful trait; but the trait doesn't scale: it adds 1 damage when I'm dealing 1d6, and still 1 damage when my +3 major striking flaming corrosive scimitar slashes go up to 6d6 or more, becoming completely irrelevant.
I ask why it's not scaling like damage should be, and the answer is: "Well, the 1d6 damage is the core function of the scimitar, its traits are not!"
But they are indeed. And shield block is a cool new mechanic that basically all feats that are about shield revolve around, so it is important and should not be dismissed.
Just house rule that shields don't break. Problem solved.
Just house rule that shields don't break. Problem solved.
Honestly, I think an Expert Crafting Skill Feat that worked something to the effect of, "Your items can never go more than one step from functional to broken to destroyed in one action." Would be great, flavorful, address this issue, and cement Craft as the "Shield Support Skill" of choice all in one go.
What if anyone can shield block even without the feat/feature, but doing so passes the damage after Hardness on to BOTH the shield and user (basically, the RAW right now).
I'm not liking this idea, since it would diminish the value of the Shield Block feat, which is essentially a Class Feature of certain classes. Let them pay a General feat, it is a fair price to pay for what you get.
However, those with the feat/feature Shield Block means the character is trained specifically in using shield block, such that the damage after Hardness is DIVIDED evenly between the shield and the user, thus passing half the remaining damage on to each, extending the life of the shields and the users.
Yes, that would both help with the 'I will only block low-damage hits, since that gives me the best return on investment on my shield HP' and, since it effectively halves the damage a shield takes in a single hit, also makes the 'self-destructing' shields more survivable. They now may only get broken instead of outright destroyed with a single hit, and if they manage to stay under their BT in damage, so much the better. Still only a once-per-fight use item, but that looks ok.
Shield users are so good as it stands, making them better is a scary prospect to me. Its currently extremely difficult to threaten a shield wielding champion in a balanced encounter - your accuracy suffers to the point that critting is unlikely, and you're missing a lot of non primary attacks. Its hard to throw enough damage at them to make them feel in danger before the monsters are dead and the encounter is over. Which is probably on target for where they're supposed to be.
You do realise that that is what combat spells are for? The ones that ignore AC? Perhaps the Champion needs to eat the odd MAGIC MISSILE to wipe that smug grin off his face... ;)
Also, it has to be said that many people don't get that since fights last 4 rounds ( sometimes 5, but mostly you will find yourself ending a fight withing 4 rounds ), even being able to perform 1 shield block, bringing your shield below the BT ( but not destroyed, which could indeed now happens ), would be without any doubt way too good.
This is what should be fully understood.
Remember though that you still have to repair your shields between fights, and without investment into both the Craft skill AND some skill feats, these 10-minute intervals start adding up fast. Just look at how long it takes to repair 80+ pts. of damage if you never get past Trained. That too is an opportunity cost that should not be underestimated.
You do realise that that is what combat spells are for? The ones that ignore AC? Perhaps the Champion needs to eat the odd MAGIC MISSILE to wipe that smug grin off his face... ;)
The number of enemies in APs with Magic Missiles is tragically low, and Champions are perpetually smug. I dont think that theres any way to get rid of that grin...
Other magic IS more effective than physical attacks... assuming you're targeting reflex... Just gotta hope they didn't pack that out of date low level Spellguard Shields for another +2 to saves...
Or now that my party is level 20, the whole party doesn't remember reflecting shields exist.
Even with "Expert" you will be able to full heal a shield in less than 10 minutes.
Oops, never mind. Quick Repair is available at the Trained level already, and 10 repair attempts are plenty.
So I recant. Repairing shields is almost trivial, as long as you invest but one skill and one 1st level skill feat. And get those 10-minutes breathers of course.
Looking at the maths paladins should still get hit plenty, there just be hit and crit ten % less than everyone else.
You do realise that that is what combat spells are for? The ones that ignore AC? Perhaps the Champion needs to eat the odd MAGIC MISSILE to wipe that smug grin off his face... ;)The number of enemies in APs with Magic Missiles is tragically low, and Champions are perpetually smug. I dont think that theres any way to get rid of that grin...
Other magic IS more effective than physical attacks... assuming you're targeting reflex... Just gotta hope they didn't pack that out of date low level Spellguard Shields for another +2 to saves...
Or now that my party is level 20, the whole party doesn't remember reflecting shields exist.
Last time I looked at the math, I think Champions with a raised shield tended to be under 50% to be hit by an equal level enemies first attack, and were crit on only a 20.
They'll take some damage, but generally within the context of how long an encounter lasts they're pretty hard to down.
If they do have a Sturdy Shield and are taking a huge chunk out of any hits you do manage to land? Forget about it.
And if you try to go around them, prepare for punishment...
Theyre not literally immortal, but context is everything. Running two campaigns with a shield champ in each party, that stupid build is frustratingly resilient from the GM viewpoint.
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Honestly, the 1-hit-shatter shield problem could EASILY be patched with something as simple as a Talisman which has a Free Action trigger that leaves your Shield at 1 HP after all damage is applied to help here.
Keeping it inexpensive somewhere in the 6-30gp range would be fine so as to not make the cost meaningless but still affordable enough to buy a spare even at middling low levels.
Defender's Affirmation
Free Action
Traits Transmutation, Consumable, Magical, Talisman
Magical Item
Item Level: 2-5
Price: 6-30 gp
Usage: affixed to shield
Activate: (F) EnvisionActivate [free-action] envision; Trigger Your shield takes damage and is reduced to 0 HP. Requirements You have the Shield Block Reaction.
WORDS WORDS WORDS FLAVOR -Golarian Specific Lore- MORE WORDS. When you activate the talisman the shield is instead reduced to 1 HP and remains Broken but not Destroyed.
The Core Function of the Shield is the Raise Shield Action.
The Shield Block reaction is a limited function of using shields, limited to those characters with the feat to access it (whether its a bonus feat or not). It is optional, and using it is meant to be a risk based decision based on whether you're willing to accept the damage to your shield in exchange for straight damage reduction. Just because you have it doesn't mean it must be useful in all scenarios.
All shields are fully viable even if you never use Shield Block.
That's why I suggest reskinning non-sturdy shields as non-shields:
Then ALL shields can be raised AND used to block with.
There are also... lets call them wards, which you can raise to get that sweet +2 AC. You CAN block with them, but you aren't going to be surprised when they shatter in a thousand pieces...
For what its worth? I'd honestly like to see this implemented elsewhere, explicitly, in a unique set of items.
For example, imagine a "Holy Symbol of Protection", which could be used with the Raise Shield Action against Undead And Fiends, which provided its bonus against their supernatural abilities and which had a hardness that scaled with your Religion proficiency.
Its a concept that feels "wasted" as a patch for shield durability.
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Also, it has to be said that many people don't get that since fights last 4 rounds ( sometimes 5, but mostly you will find yourself ending a fight withing 4 rounds ), even being able to perform 1 shield block, bringing your shield below the BT ( but not destroyed, which could indeed now happens ), would be without any doubt way too good.
This is what should be fully understood.PS: Obviously, leaving for now apart some shields which need some extra HP ( like arrow catching or forge ).
TLDR: People have to ( not should ) realize that there won't be ANY trade if all not sturdy shields would be able to block 1 or even 2 times an attack of the current level without being broken.
They would be WAY better than any sturdy shield, which are meant to be used by those who want to make the extreme use of shield block action.
So, no.
Something this "With a sturdy shield you will be able to deal with 5 or even more attacks, while with other shields you could afford 2, would not even be an option".
Really, being able to use a feat to block a few points of damage once or twice per combat is too good?
By level 6, your Fighter probably has about 80-85 HP; blocking 6 with a Lion's Shield at the cost of a reaction could be a decent option, but an inferior (2 levels lower) Minor Sturdy Shield blocks 8, and does it multiple times.Let's go to level 18. Your nice Reflecting Shield now blocks... still 6 damage, while your HP are about 260. Clearly OP, we must balance it by making the shield crumble into dust! Meanwhile, the Major Sturdy Shield (again, 2 levels lower) is blocking 17 damage, and surviving.
How can you say that a blocking 2-4% of your HP (at the cost of a class feature or a General Feat, plus a reaction) once or twice per battle is too much?
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I have to say, I found shield block to be very good at saving my PC's life last weekend in a scenario. Without it, well, It might have radically change the outcome for me and several others in the scenario we played.
I think sturdy shield is good as is as well.
I don't agree with the argument that PCs would rather take a hit in the face vs using an item or ability at least to the extent that it might mean that they might drop to 0 and be in some state of dying condition.
Sure, perhaps when you know its only going to be minor damage, but if you know you are about to get the big smackdown, and perhaps even as a critical hit, I am raising that shield up, getting ready to use shield block and I am hoping that there is a Pally with Retributive strike very close to me. Dying conditions might not be that big of deal to some players, but when you are the Cleric (Warpriest)surviving each round is generally a good thing for best possible party outcome.
2E has much more tactical feel to it for combat and you have to go with a bit of an operational and strategic outlook and I have found with my PC that shield block and sturdy shield really help out.
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Arklore, no one here is saying that sturdy shields aren't ok. They actually do scale less than damage and HP do, but a sturdy shield of appropriate level is definitely useful at all stages of the game.
We are talking about the other magical shiels which stats don't scale at all, meaning that very soon they will be utterly destroyed (beyond repair) by an average, level-appropriate hit. And as I was writing before, the amount of damage they can block becomes negligible: when you are facing an 80 damage critical, how many times are you going to block just 6 of that, at the cost of a big chunk of your wealth?
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I'm sure it's been pointed out before, but for comparison purposes lets look at a level 6 item, Healing Potion. Sure it doesn't prevent damage, and takes more actions to use, but it costs a paltry 50 gold and restore a whooping 3d8+10 hp ( 23.5 avg). Compared to a 6th level shield, Spellguard Shield. It has hardness 6, and 24 hp.
According to the creature building tables, an moderate attack damage will deal 2d6+8 damage (15 avg) enough to destroy this shield in 2 hits. Worth noting, moderate is the 2nd lowest of the 4 categories for creatures within a level. A high damage amount for a 6th level creature will deal 2d8+9, for 18 average damage. But if they were to roll max damage they break your shield in a single hit. Or if they crit you, either is likely to break your shield in a single hit.
Or you could have bought like 5 potions that would mitigate 125 points of damage. Compared to the 12 you blocked.
I'm sure it's been pointed out before, but for comparison purposes lets look at a level 6 item, Healing Potion. Sure it doesn't prevent damage, and takes more actions to use, but it costs a paltry 50 gold and restore a whooping 3d8+10 hp ( 23.5 avg). Compared to a 6th level shield, Spellguard Shield. It has hardness 6, and 24 hp.
According to the creature building tables, an moderate attack damage will deal 2d6+8 damage (15 avg) enough to destroy this shield in 2 hits. Worth noting, moderate is the 2nd lowest of the 4 categories for creatures within a level. A high damage amount for a 6th level creature will deal 2d8+9, for 18 average damage. But if they were to roll max damage they break your shield in a single hit. Or if they crit you, either is likely to break your shield in a single hit.
Or you could have bought like 5 potions that would mitigate 125 points of damage. Compared to the 12 you blocked.
You need to consider that what the shield is providing you is a bonus to AC, a bonus to Saves versus magic, and in addition to all that the possibility of preventing damage if the situation calls for it.
Yeah, Shields are 'bad' when it comes to price per damage prevented. Until you give them credit for the blanket effective 25% reduction in total incoming damage, which the Spellguard Shield extends to spells.
The Spellguard shield is a bad example - its a fantastic shield and utility item.
Also, worth stating again - a Shield is never destroyed unless you consent to it. Incoming damage is not secret information unless your GM is houseruling it, save your block for one of the hits you're bound to take that is below the threshold that destroys your shield.
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@HumbleGamer: you are talking about the Shield Block capabilities of two different shields like they are the same. They are not: a sturdy shield will still block much more damage than a non-sturdy one.
When you are taking an average of 40 damage hits, reducing 3 of them to 23 and still having your shield up is very different than reducing 2 of them to 34 (or even something less, if hardness is scaled up a little bit) and losing the +2 AC and the bonus vs magic for the rest of the fight.
In the first case, with a lower-level sturdy shield, you have taken 69 damage and you are still fighting at 100% effectiveness; with the on-level non-sturdy shield instead you have taken 108, maybe more if the third hit has become a critical because of that missing +2 AC, and you are more likely to be hit from now on.
Compare the second case to what we have now: you either eat all the full 120 damage, or reduce it to 114 and have your shield destroyed.
@thenobledrake: yes, there will be cases where the 6 damage you can block makes you barely stand, and maybe act. In these cases, blocking at the cost of breaking (not destroying) your shield would feel awesome. While losing it forever would leave a very bad taste in your mouth, regardless of how the fight goes on.
I don't understand why you say that you aren't using that wealth in other ways. I really don't think that mid-high level characters are expected to spend everything they have on shields and comsumables.
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Paladins and fighters (the two main classes that will make shield builds) are able to block several times at higher levels. I made a Champion build yesterday and I was looking at three shield blocks per round (Normal reaction, extra champion reaction with Shield Warden and quick block), that's something only a Sturdy shield would even be an option, because instead of making a Paladin that could just Shield Block for their friends, I wanted one that could do it a lot, so I went with this round, instead of choosing other weapon options (i'm using everstand stance). In this case a Sturdy Shield would not be obsolete at all even if every other shield had the chance to block at least one without turning into dust.
This balance you claim so much DOES NOT exist because there is no MEANINGFUL TRADE OFF, it's simple as that. You either are a shield-focused build with a sturdy shield or you simply abandon the build because it's the only economically viable and is the best stat-wise, every other shield is subpar in every category (Price, hardness, hp and BT), the difference is so staggering that no matter which cool ability you have on your shield, if you can't use your amazing class features, then you're not doing what the build supposed to do.
Believe me, having a Champion in your party is pretty much like everyone focusing on using Shield block (but much better, since Champion reaction do other stuff and the target doesn't expend its reactions) and it still doesn't feel like monsters are lacking damage. My party is currently level 11 on book 3 of age of ashes and I play a monk that could use a shield but I don't just because it's not cool for my martial artist.
So, for anecdotes sake inspired by Lightnings recent post about Champions with multiple blocks- the champions in each of my games have used thus far and blocked with-
Mundane Shields
Sturdy Shields
Spined Shields
Spellguard Shields
Dragonslayer's Shields
Reforging Shields
There have been zero magical shields lost to destruction in either party.
I suppose they don't define themselves around getting the absolute most value from Shield Block possible, but they've never been lacking for damage reduction or shy about getting a shield broken and then fixing it later.
Look for the hit that came through that isn't big enough to outright destroy your shield, claim your free hitpoints from damage reduction, and carry on.
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So, for anecdotes sake inspired by Lightnings recent post about Champions with multiple blocks- the champions in each of my games have used thus far and blocked with ...
In comparison the sword and board fighter in my group was "denied" a sturdy shield by our GM (not especially out of malice, but because the GM did not realize how elementary it would have been for the fighter when we could still reasonable get hold of one), is now sitting on some more or less useless feat choices (aggressive block) and more often than not just takes any hits to his head (especially criticals) instead of using his spellguard shield for the shield block reaction, mostly because our fights usually last significantly longer than 4 rounds and he does not want to break his shield early on (DR6 once versus +2 AC for a couple of rounds is usually not worth it).
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So, for anecdotes sake inspired by Lightnings recent post about Champions with multiple blocks- the champions in each of my games have used thus far and blocked with ...In comparison the sword and board fighter in my group was "denied" a sturdy shield by our GM (not especially out of malice, but because the GM did not realize how elementary it would have been for the fighter when we could still reasonable get hold of one), is now sitting on some more or less useless feat choices (aggressive block) and more often than not just takes any hits to his head (especially criticals) instead of using his spellguard shield for the shield block reaction, mostly because our fights usually last significantly longer than 4 rounds and he does not want to break his shield early on (DR6 once versus +2 AC for a couple of rounds is usually not worth it).
All of my arguments that its fine to have "shields good at blocking" and "Shields you shouldn't use for blocking on the regular" are 100% contingent on the assumption that players have access to level appropriate common items within a couple levels of them becoming available.
Shields are far from the only subsystem reliant on that assumption, but it is an important assumption.
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So, for anecdotes sake inspired by Lightnings recent post about Champions with multiple blocks- the champions in each of my games have used thus far and blocked with ...In comparison the sword and board fighter in my group was "denied" a sturdy shield by our GM (not especially out of malice, but because the GM did not realize how elementary it would have been for the fighter when we could still reasonable get hold of one), is now sitting on some more or less useless feat choices (aggressive block) and more often than not just takes any hits to his head (especially criticals) instead of using his spellguard shield for the shield block reaction, mostly because our fights usually last significantly longer than 4 rounds and he does not want to break his shield early on (DR6 once versus +2 AC for a couple of rounds is usually not worth it).
All of my arguments that its fine to have "shields good at blocking" and "Shields you shouldn't use for blocking on the regular" are 100% contingent on the assumption that players have access to level appropriate common items within a couple levels of them becoming available.
Shields are far from the only subsystem reliant on that assumption, but it is an important assumption.
This reinforces my opinion that shields as they stand are not intended. If certain class feats require access to a specific magic item, it should have been printed somewhere in the feat or shield section.
Otherwise it's an example of ivory tower game design, which is explicitly avoided in this edition of the game.
Especially since the shields turning to paper happened only after the switch from dents to HP, as though a mistake was made in the transition.