Is "enemies of your people" defined in detail somewhere (only have the CRB available).
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In pf1, dwarves got the trait “hatred”, which gave a bonus against goblinoids. In pf2, the ancestry feat “vengeful hatred” no longer includes them as an option. I assume that this was deliberate.
Nearly all dwarven peoples share a passion for stonework, metalwork, and gem-cutting. Most are highly skilled at architecture and mining, and many share a hatred of giants, orcs, and goblinoids.
This suggests that many dwarves would be prejudiced against goblins. Couldn't see any on AoN about Torag's attitude to goblins. Are you asking as a player or GM?
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Nearly all dwarven peoples share a passion for stonework, metalwork, and gem-cutting. Most are highly skilled at architecture and mining, and many share a hatred of giants, orcs, and goblinoids.This suggests that many dwarves would be prejudiced against goblins. Couldn't see any on AoN about Torag's attitude to goblins. Are you asking as a player or GM?
Technically the dwarf ancestry description still mentions goblinoids as an issue but I believe in PF2 they pretty much retconned dwarven ancestry hatred vs goblinoids and have a few places where goblinoids just haven't been edited out. Which is good since Torag paladins were like judge dredd on orcs, giants, and goblins.
From PF2 Dwarf Ancestry:
Dwarves are slow to trust those outside their kin, but this wariness is not without reason. Dwarves have a long history of forced exile from ancestral holds and struggles against the depredations of savage foes, especially giants, goblinoids, orcs, and the horrors that dwell deep below the surface. While trust from a dwarf is hard-won, once gained it is as strong as iron.
From PF1 Paladin Code
Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
From PF2 Torag
Anathema: tell lies or cheat someone, intentionally create inferior works, show mercy to the enemies of your people
From Deadmanwalking
Torag is, by all indications (most notably being Good-aligned), not racist.He's not at all forgiving of enemies...but most PC goblins would not fall under that category, and those that do would do so due to their behavior not their species.
I would say Torag actually kind of is racist but your point would still stand regarding PC goblins. When you say that you are NOT to "show mercy to the enemies of your people" its kind of a broad rule and stereotypes a decent amount. A PC could definitely view a good goblin or orc PC as an exception but in general they would be guilty until proven innocent.
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I would say Torag actually kind of is racist but your point would still stand regarding PC goblins. When you say that you are NOT to "show mercy to the enemies of your people" its kind of a broad rule and stereotypes a decent amount. A PC could definitely view a good goblin or orc PC as an exception but in general they would be guilty until proven innocent.
What evidence is there of Torag's racism?
Dwarves, as a culture, are a bit racist, but that's very different from their God being so. Cultures often diverge somewhat from the ideals of their deity.
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Considering dwarves as a whole have a reputation of being insular and mistrusting of outsiders, it makes sense that Torag would be on the insular and mistrusting-of-outsiders side of Lawful Good.
I suspect followers of Torag would tend to assume any given goblin to be a murderous little trash-gremlin, but would likely be willing to be proven wrong.
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Kraggodan has this nice little detail about how some its walls are lined with orc skulls, but as a mark of respect to the martial prowess of the orcs that the dwarfs clashed with during the Quest for Sky. Considering the city's hero and namesake was himself killed by said orcs, it really stood out to me.
I kind of head canon the dwarf racial stuff in that light-- it is less about true hatred and more dedication to a worthy foe. I don't know how well supported that is though.
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I feel like Torag trusts his followers to make the call about "whether that goblin over there minding his own business" is an "enemy of your people."
The anathema is triggered when someone actually acts in a way that is antagonistic to your people, instructing you to not show mercy if they say "JK". It's not an instruction to go hunt down orcs who are chasing butterflies in the field.
My question is whether Torag would empower a Hobgoblin Forge cleric who is part of a tight Goblinoid community, and then, if he did, would the anathema apply to giving mercy to dwarves?
Edit: Because Hobgoblins really would make excellent Torag worshipers.
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I haven't read all the stuff Paizo's written on dwarves, but of the stuff I have read, their description in Druma, Profit and Prophecy seems the most like what I would imagine their general worldview to be like. They definitely started off condescending and ignorantly superior:
Eventually the Kellids—along with the newly emerged dwarves— pushed the orcs into the mountains, but the ongoing warfare had left the humans bloodied. The dwarves looked upon these dispersed humans with pity, seeing not tenacious survivors but instead a primitive culture. Although the dwarves offered aid out of benevolence, this relationship soon took on an air of condescension.
As punishment, he mandated that the people of Druma be “denied beards and beer,” demonstrating how out of touch the dwarves had grown by trying to impose their culture on their neighbors.
But they ended up (after being forced to) recognizing the error of their ways, and now go out of their way to be sensitive to the fact that they were in the wrong:
Though Druma’s history is fraught with dwarven abuses and Drumish rebellions, today’s state is something entirely different. The dwarves readily trade with the Kalistocracy and are eager to barter for precious gems and minerals from Druma’s southern foothills.
However, the long narrative of dwarven occupation, strife, and competition with Druma leaves an underlying tension, with humans and dwarves showing a little additional care so as not to offend one another and dredge up long-buried history.
So they definitely give the impression that they don't look too fondly on others (particularly ones they've warred with) and hold strong grudges, but can (through an apparently long and painful process) change their minds, and once that happens they become much more amenable.
(as an aside, this Druma book is probably my favorite softcover that Paizo's produced)
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My question is whether Torag would empower a Hobgoblin Forge cleric who is part of a tight Goblinoid community, and then, if he did, would the anathema apply to giving mercy to dwarves?
Edit: Because Hobgoblins really would make excellent Torag worshipers.
Well, the fundamental argument I'm making is that any priest who determines who their enemies are by their species is doing it wrong.
But yes, I think if there's a Torag-following hobgoblin who's minding their own business when dwarven bandits attack, Torag's reaction is 'Kill them all.'
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A lot of the stereotypes about dwarves would suggest that "these are a people who do not display good judgment" since they're into things like alcohol, gold, fighting, and xenophobia.
But consider the alternative, that dwarves generally do have good judgment. It's because of this that they understand how far they can push things before it becomes "too far" and feel okay anywhere up to that line.
So as a result they display avarice, gluttony, etc. to a degree that other people would consider excessive. It's just that dwarves understand just where to stop and for other people it's likely muddier.
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Technically the dwarf ancestry description still mentions goblinoids as an issue but I believe in PF2 they pretty much retconned dwarven ancestry hatred vs goblinoids and have a few places where goblinoids just haven't been edited out.
Lore-wise, dwarves fought with orcs since before recorded history, and the cause of their emnity with duergar is obvious. I guess they compete with giants for territory and fight drow on principle.
Point is, they don't have much cause to fight goblins, so goblins aren't the Vengeful Hatred list.
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I think it would take a very very long time for any dwarf to trust a goblin. it would be like asking a lion to get along with a hyena. Dwarves as a race are inherently conservative, and for much if not all of their history they have been at war with goblins.
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Have to agree with Deadmanwalking here. Torag is a bit on the heavy handed side, but 'my people's enemies' is a pretty specific statement.
Goblin bandits pillaging a town, burning down buildings and attacking innocents? Enemies of my people. But that'd be true still if the bandits were human or dwarven too.
Goblin accountant who just helps businesses balance their expenses? Maybe not so much an enemy of my people.
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I think it would take a very very long time for any dwarf to trust a goblin. it would be like asking a lion to get along with a hyena. Dwarves as a race are inherently conservative, and for much if not all of their history they have been at war with goblins.
Despite only making up 5% of Player Characters, Goblins start 80% of the orphanage fires.
*Crosses Dwarf arms*
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I think it would take a very very long time for any dwarf to trust a goblin. it would be like asking a lion to get along with a hyena. Dwarves as a race are inherently conservative, and for much if not all of their history they have been at war with goblins.Despite only making up 5% of Player Characters, Goblins start 80% of the orphanage fires.
*Crosses Dwarf arms*
Goblins, being disruptive to gaming groups since 2019.
*Crosses Dwarf arms*
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Players, giving headaches to GMs since the dawn of times!
*Crosses GM arms*
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If you're looking for the attitudes of a follower rather than the God himself, that's a different matter. Torag is very much on the insular side of Good, and without his divine knowledge, I'd expect most followers to err on the side of distrust of those who are related to their people's historical enemies.
But, again because he's Good, if they go beyond distrust to actively unpleasant conduct they're risking running up against their God's disapproval, IMO.
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I'm now imagining a cleric praying to Torag for divine guidance on the matter and Torag responding "CUT THE GOBLINS A BREAK! THEY ARE LEARNING INDUSTRIOUSNESS AND CRAFTSMANSHIP AS A PEOPLE, AND THIS IS PLEASING TO ME. HARM THEM NOT IF THEY DO NO HARM UNTO YOU. SO SAYETH TORAG!"
Come to think if it, that IS an aspect of goblin culture Torag would smile on: their knack for taking junk and making it into useful stuff. Sure, it isn't pretty to look at, but they're just starting down that path, so it's kinda like your kindergartner's macaroni art that you put up on the fridge to encourage them to improve. Torag does seem like the kind of god who'd regard entire peoples in a paternalistic kind of way...
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Well, I would think both would matter because
"Torag makes his pleasure or displeasure known through unsubtle signs."
Sure, but no God communicates perfectly and directly with their worshipers. I'd generally assume such communications only come about big and important failures in faith.
So if a follower hates goblins and refuses to even talk to one, for example (not attacking, just ignoring) and Torag dislikes that sufficiently then Torag might send a bad omen or something. Or maybe he's okay with that as long as his follower isn't actively attacking or working against the goblin.
I'd say refusing to talk to them would be something he'd object to, yes. That's really a pretty awful and unwarranted thing to do when you think about it. It also actively doesn't achieve anything, which given Torag's generally practical nature seems like it would offend him.
What does actively unpleasant conduct mean in this scenario?
Anything that causes them real issue, especially if it's pointless.
Being careful and cautious, such as keeping an eye on them to prevent them from stealing and investigating them first when there's a case of arson (given the goblin love of fire) seem like Torag would approve to at least some degree, and it seems unlikely he'd object to being a bit gruff and slightly rude to them (or anyone), but refusing services, attacking them, or otherwise doing things to actively cause them hardship? No, those he'd object to.
How would Torag and His Followers Feel About Hobgoblin PCs?
Would there be any difference between Gobin PCs and Hobgoblin PCs in their view?
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Goblin accountant who just helps businesses balance their expenses? Maybe not so much an enemy of my people.Does not compute, no goblin would want numbers stolen out of their heads.
Yigrig Moneymaker is canonically an incredibly successful goblin merchant in Katapesh, not strictly an accountant but almost certainly knowledgeable and skilled in matters of business and finance. Either some goblins don't hold to the typical goblin superstition about writing, or they have figured out ways to manage finances without using the written word.
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Come to think if it, that IS an aspect of goblin culture Torag would smile on: their knack for taking junk and making it into useful stuff. Sure, it isn't pretty to look at, but they're just starting down that path, so it's kinda like your kindergartner's macaroni art that you put up on the fridge to encourage them to improve. Torag does seem like the kind of god who'd regard entire peoples in a paternalistic kind of way...
Well, now I want to make a goblin cleric of Torag who crafts all kinds of things because he likes the pats on the heads he gets when the other clerics take his macaroni-drawing contraptions and put them to their beautifully crafted suits of armour