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I have had goblin PC in 100% of my 2e campaigns so far.
Yup, one out of one.
Sample size? What's that? :P
Out of my 2 PF2 campaigns and 7 5e campaigns, I've seen 8 tieflings and 5 goblins. Note that I made a homebrew tiefling heritage for PF2 which accounts for two of those tiefs. They're popular ancestries in my group.
One of those campaigns had 5 players, all of whom played tieflings or gobbos.
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One of those campaigns had 5 players, all of whom played tieflings or gobbos.
I don't think "We Be Goblins" should count. ;)
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Out of my 2 PF2 campaigns and 7 5e campaigns, I've seen 8 tieflings and 5 goblins. Note that I made a homebrew tiefling heritage for PF2 which accounts for two of those tiefs. They're popular ancestries in my group.
One of those campaigns had 5 players, all of whom played tieflings or gobbos.
Our office Extinction Curse game has a tiefling, two goblins, and a shoony in it (along with a dwarf and a gnome). Jacobs' tiefling is the most unusual one by virtue of height, and also because her circus act is tightrope walking while a bunch of tiny dinosaurs follow the tune of her violin. Though the argument might be made that the shoony clown cloistered cleric of Cayden Cailean has a claim to the title of "most unusual".
I don't think there's been a goblin in every PF2 game I've played in or GMd to date, but I think they've been just as common as humans and more common than any of the other ancestries (human might actually have an edge if you count half-elves and half-orcs).
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Can't wait for Kobolds..... come on APG....
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....and Gnolls...
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Can't wait for Kobolds..... come on APG....
....and Gnolls...
Agreed!
Now all that's left are Mites...
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I've had a goblin at both my PF2 tables. Of course, I've had a halfling at both tables too.
Part of the prevalence of goblins right now is that there are six core ancestries... odds are good. Especially if you want to play a small character with decent strength.
My current Extinction Curse group has no goblins but DOES have a hobgoblin.
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Can't wait for Kobolds..... come on APG....
And tengu. Come on I need my crazy birdwitch with their raven familiar again.
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Wait...hold up...you mean to tell me that tieflings haven't overrun the game? That goblins aren't in the process of doing the same?I've only ever seen one tiefling in play, ever.
There is a goblin in my current group make up, but only one.
I saw quite a few tieflings in PF1, but I think that had a lot to do with tieflings being eleven different races with the same name in that system more than anything inherent about them.
I saw quite a few tieflings in PF1, but I think that had a lot to do with tieflings being eleven different races with the same name in that system more than anything inherent about them.
There was that brief period in which Devil Spawn Tieflings getting Pyrotechnics as a SLA was used by some people to cheese their ways into early access to a prestige class. A Peri-Blooded Aasimar (+Int/+Cha instead of +Wis/+Dex/-Cha) was better for some builds though.
That's a thing I'm not sad to see gone, and it went away like 5 years ago.
I have had goblin PC in 100% of my 2e campaigns so far.
Yup, one out of one.
Sample size? What's that? :P
LOL I've had 0% but that's more my not joining games with them in than players not playing them: I've have several games I passed on because of it.
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Part of the prevalence of goblins right now is that there are six core ancestries... odds are good.
I think moreso it’s because players didn’t have an opportunity to play as a goblin before. In home games the general position seemed to be that either they were too far outside acceptable civilization to work as a PC or the GM wanted to keep the game closer to core. In organized play they were heavily sought after because we actually allowed roughly 40-50 of them at one time a few years back which created some envy that probably wouldn’t have been there otherwise. So now everyone has a chance to play what is considered the most iconic creature in all of Pathfinderdom. Once the new car smell fades, I think we’ll see fewer goblins and the frequency of the non-human races will be somewhat balanced. Or at least until the next round of new ancestries with character build rules appear and the cycle begins again.
So far I've been involved in 2 PF2e games (an Age of Ashes and a Fall of Plaguestone) and neither has had a Goblin PC. That said, the other Age of Ashes that a separate segment of my group is running has 2 (mostly I think because the two players tend towards having connected characters,) so it is a bit of a mixed bag.
As for 5e... yeah, I've seen a fair number of Tieflings. Frequently my own, I like Tieflings. ^.^;
I will note that the only Goblin character I've ever played alongside (a... semi-rotation-heavy game of Skulls and Shackles) wasn't particularly disruptive either. Sure he had his... quirks... as a Goblin Alchemist, but no more so than just about any other character. Heck, if anything the CE Dagonite Mermaid Warpriest was more quirky than the Goblin, and even she tended to promote more character building opportunities than chaos or disruption.
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It just seems odd that coming off of PF1 where valid options for player characters include: a cat person, a rat person, a frog person, a bird person, a snake person, a monkey person, a fox person, diet lycanthropes of several types, a delicious sapient plant, a sapient plant that climbs, a sapient faerie plant that flies, an honest to goodness robot, a four armed space alien, an octopus centaur, and an ambulatory void that goblins would be the bridge too far.
PF1 groups could get weird, man. Why play a Dwarf when you could be a Yaddithian?
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I mean, the goblin part feels like it's not the real problem, it's the type of character goblin players tend to be. So when you say "no goblins", there's a real possibility that the player just rolls up a human/gnome/halfling, plays the same personality, and then you're both unhappy.
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No one has ever played a Goblin at my table except for "We Goblins"... But that maybe because the first campaign I always go with with a new table is Rise of the Runelords... :p
Another factor might be that I always enforce that in a human-centric ,and where races exist for real, world some people will be racists...
That's why I usually completely accept Uncommon races at my table provided that they are keen to accept the downside of being a race that is not fully accepted in some town by some people in exchange for advantage in combat... You can find this an easy advantage but, well, you have to rp it to know... ;)
This is something that I find really educative for some people, playing a minority in a RP game can be an eye opener for some... :p
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Personally, I have not seen a goblin in the wild that was not pretty much being played against type.
Like my goblin swashbuckler for the APG playtest in addition to being a weird rubbery person and a tremendous acrobat, was also an erudite scholar, a poet, a oenophile, and a true romantic at heart.
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In my PF2 Ironfang Invasion campaign, we had some players drop out due to circumstances and some join late, so I have seen a selection of characters.
• goblin alchemist, with a pyromanic streak yet from a peaceful tribe
• halfling rogue, an escaped slave leading a quiet life as a goatherder
• elf ranger, in training to become an esteemed Chernesardo Ranger
• gnome druid, stormborn and bit of a hermit
• lizardfolk champion, retired from war and earning money as a fisherman
• gnome rouge, former criminal making an honest living as a messenger
• monkey goblin champion, level-headed bookworm out seeking adventure
So, two goblins out of seven player characters, yet neither of them the disruptive type. Also, humans and dwarves are by far the most common ancestries in the area, so all the player characters are exotic.
The monkey goblin Tikti was created two weeks ago by my adult elder daughter, once she realized that our game shifting to Roll20 meant that she could join in from the other side of the USA. What do we get when we cross a gamer mathematician and a grandmaster roleplayer: a dedicated gamer started playing D&D at age six and optimizes characters out of habit. She was attracted to a goblin as her first PF2 character due to the darkvision and the interesting heritage options such as Unbreakable and Tailed Goblin (she went with Tailed). Playing a little maniac was not a priority.
The story of the goblin alchemist Tak is that a peaceful goblin tribe of former slaves of hobgoblins lived in ruins near the human village Ecru. They fled when the hobgoblin army invaded Ecru. Ten goblins, including Tak, arrived in the village Phaender--the starting location of the adventure path--as refugees. I could not justify goblins living in or near Phaendar, but Ecru was better located to have hidden goblins nearby who sometimes traded with human hunters.
The story of the monkey goblin Tikti is that after the Goblinblood Wars in Isger, a group of do-gooders stuck with goblin babies brought in some civilized monkey goblins from Mediogalti Island to raise them. The name of the new trible, the Goblinworth Library, hints at their culture. Tikti is a granddaughter of those Mediogalti Island goblins with an Isger goblin as one parent.
It just seems odd that coming off of PF1 where valid options for player characters include: a cat person, a rat person, a frog person, a bird person, a snake person, a monkey person, a fox person, diet lycanthropes of several types, a delicious sapient plant, a sapient plant that climbs, a sapient faerie plant that flies, an honest to goodness robot, a four armed space alien, an octopus centaur, and an ambulatory void that goblins would be the bridge too far.
PF1 groups could get weird, man. Why play a Dwarf when you could be a Yaddithian?
Many of my games ended up as animal manageries because of all those races. Not a human to be seen anywhere.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it kind of hard for people to relate, and can make for some odd social encounters with human NPCs.
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Speaking as a person who's favorite character I've ever played was a goblin, I admit I have some emotional attachment to them.
I will readily admit that my favorite 1E character was a goblin. I was one of the lucky few that “won” a goblin at Gen Con many years ago for PFS. That being said, I have to admit that I am a hypocrite because I did not like the change in goblin presentation for 2E and it becoming a core ancestry. I have played with a few goblins in 2E and most have not been disruptive, so my aversion to it is unwarranted and unreasonable, but it persists nonetheless.
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Many of my games ended up as animal manageries because of all those races. Not a human to be seen anywhere.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it kind of hard for people to relate, and can make for some odd social encounters with human NPCs.
Most of the time there was at least one person in the party who was human because they really wanted that bonus feat. So it became more "why are you hanging around with this crew" but I generally maintain a standard of never hassling a player character over what they are, no matter how unusual that thing might or might not be.
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I'm really excited to see the heritage/ancestry mixups coming. So far only one player tried adding a half-orc heritage to a non-human (predicatly, a Dworc barbarian), but in the summer, I think we'll have so many options for bizarre ancestry flavors that "goblin" will very quickly become mundane.
Prepare yourself for the tiefling leshies and the aasimar iruxi and the half-elf orcs (clearly different from the half-orc elves). It's gonna get so weird and I am so here for it.
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I am excited to see aasimar and tieflings being made into pseudo-templates. It seemed odd to me that only humans got to have all the fun with outsiders.
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I am excited to see aasimar and tieflings being made into pseudo-templates. It seemed odd to me that only humans got to have all the fun with outsiders.
Soon the game will be taken over by edgelords pyromanic kleptomanic tiefling goblins (or would that be tielins...or goblings)
;)
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I am excited to see aasimar and tieflings being made into pseudo-templates. It seemed odd to me that only humans got to have all the fun with outsiders.Soon the game will be taken over by edgelords pyromanic kleptomanic tiefling goblins (or would that be tielins...or goblings)
;)
Ooooh, I wonder which is stronger, the need to play a dark and brooding character born into damnation or the need to play an excitable kleptomaniac? Blending those two elements would make a fairly interesting character concept, actually. The ultimate in "the world hates who I am, they consider my father's people vermin and my mother's blood a taint upon my soul. My coping mechanisms are brooding cynicism and lighting things on fire with no thought of consequences." XD
On that note personally I love the goblin underdog story. Build my first pyrokineticist as an intelligent, wise goblin with a cantankerous personality and a bitterness about being (literally) looked down upon by people who burn just so easily
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I would play the character as bi-polar.
The only problem I have with goblin PCs is the same I have with Paladins and CN alignment which is more of a bad player or GM problem than with the class, race, etc.
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Personally, I have not seen a goblin in the wild that was not pretty much being played against type.
For pathfinder, I tended to see 2 types: one that where there for the total goblin experience of pyromania, killing horses/dogs and maybe eating a few gnomes for lunch. The other where short humans in a green demihuman suit, where race was just there as an afterthought as they where there for the sweet, sweet +4 dex and +8 stealth. Neither made me want to play with more goblin characters and I don't expect the transition to core in PF2 to improve things. Now I'm sure there are people that can strike a balance between the two but for me it's they are theoretical so far.
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Maybe the reason my perception of goblins is more positive is because I've only played a single campaign in Golarion (currently in Extinction Curse). Every other campaign I've played in has been Forgotten Realms, Planescape (where I really got attached to goblins), or a homebrew setting. While FR goblins certainly have stereotypes about them, no more so than dwarves or halflings in the same setting.
My personal favorite goblin character was a Hexblade Warlock who fled her tribe due to being essentially useless to them; She was clumsy, had horrible aim, and not very bright. Her and her warlock patron eventually wound up having a weirdly father/daughter-like relationship, which was interesting. She was a little ball of anxiety I absolutely loved playing. Played her as true neutral, having a sort of one-track mind for the survival of her and her friends and caring little about anything else, because she felt like she was never in a safe enough place to care about anything else (which, in Sigil, is a fair assumption).
That came out a little rambly, but I just wanted to share an experience as a goblin player.
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I would play the character as bi-polar.
I hope you discuss that with your group first, as that can be a sensitive topic for those who don't happen to be neuro-typical.
Wouldn't want someone to think you're mocking them.
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I am excited to see aasimar and tieflings being made into pseudo-templates. It seemed odd to me that only humans got to have all the fun with outsiders.Soon the game will be taken over by edgelords pyromanic kleptomanic tiefling goblins (or would that be tielins...or goblings)
;)
Don't forget your backstory!
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I am excited to see aasimar and tieflings being made into pseudo-templates. It seemed odd to me that only humans got to have all the fun with outsiders.
This was never the explicit case in 1st edition, as books like Blood of Fiends and Blood of Angels point out, but yes, I'm delighted that in 2nd edition we were able to step away from these ancestries' hard-wired from the OGL assumptions and build into their rules the way they've always worked on Golarion. It's a really elegant solution.
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I am excited to see aasimar and tieflings being made into pseudo-templates. It seemed odd to me that only humans got to have all the fun with outsiders.This was never the explicit case in 1st edition, as books like Blood of Fiends and Blood of Angels point out, but yes, I'm delighted that in 2nd edition we were able to step away from these ancestries' hard-wired from the OGL assumptions and build into their rules the way they've always worked on Golarion. It's a really elegant solution.
For sure. I enjoy the large majority of the design decisions in this game, but this stands out as one of the most inspired and unique.
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The other where short humans in a green demihuman suit, where race was just there as an afterthought as they where there for the sweet, sweet +4 dex and +8 stealth.
I guess this gets into the question about the essential characteristics of an ancestry- nature versus nurture. If you actually go for the tongue-in-cheek cliche of the goblin orphanage ran by paladins, it makes sense that a goblin growing up in that environment probably would be a lot better behaved. The impulse to burn things is almost certainly cultural, rather than biological.
Like is a Dwarf monk who keeps clean shaven, avoids alcohol and excess, has no real need for gold outside of utilitarian needs, philosophically prefers natural chaos to artificial order, and does not speak in a scottish accent just "a demihuman in a dwarf suit" or does the fact that the player has chosen to play that character against the stereotype matter? If nothing else if the stereotype were different, it would inform the character differently.
Plus, I mean, the +4 Dex/+8 Stealth thing was a PF1 problem. Not only are the stat boosts you get from your ancestry much less of a big deal now, but all of the ancestries thus far are fairly balanced against each other. So people mostly play goblins because they want to.
It just seems like a weird double standard to insist that ancestries A,B, and C can be whatever kind of person they want, but ancestries D, E, and F are intrinsically bound by whatever species they are.
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I would play the character as bi-polar.I hope you discuss that with your group first, as that can be a sensitive topic for those who don't happen to be neuro-typical.
Wouldn't want someone to think you're mocking them.
Um...'No Duh'...but to be fair you dont know me so I get the comment.
Though really that is not the type of character I would play. I just see it as a way to portray that character.
Though I am curious where was this comment when talking about pyromaniac or
Kleptomania? Both a legit neuro logical issues people suffer from?
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I would play the character as bi-polar.I hope you discuss that with your group first, as that can be a sensitive topic for those who don't happen to be neuro-typical.
Wouldn't want someone to think you're mocking them.
Um...'No Duh'...but to be fair you dont know me so I get the comment.
Though really that is not the type of character I would play. I just see it as a way to portray that character.
Though I am curious where was this comment when talking about pyromaniac or
Kleptomania? Both a legit neuro logical issues people suffer from?
Maybe a matter of prevalence? Encountering someone with bipolar is much more likely than meeting someone with clinical pyromania or kleptomania.
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For what its worth, individuals with those conditions are going to differ significantly on what constitutes an appropriate depiction of it, so there's no one right answer- an offensive depiction to one is going to be funny to another, and not even being recognized as a depiction of it by a third, while a fourth will tell you they're so happy you chose to represent them so respectfully.
You see this a lot actually with representation, some people see it as themselves being mocked, whereas others will identify with the character.
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I guess this gets into the question about the essential characteristics of an ancestry- nature versus nurture. If you actually go for the tongue-in-cheek cliche of the goblin orphanage ran by paladins, it makes sense that a goblin growing up in that environment probably would be a lot better behaved. The impulse to burn things is almost certainly cultural, rather than biological.
With the other races, they have a history of living closely with each other for generations: as such, it's not surprising that someone can see their culture stronger than their ancestry. For instance, a dwarf from Brevoy might think of themselves more a Brevan that's a dwarf. Goblins just don't have any history like this barely having a generation of 'inclusion'. Even the best assimilated goblin is going to still show some goblin in their activities in such a short time. Orphaned/adopted is a better option but how many of those are feasible? It's like the old forgotten realms escapee good drows: sure one can happen but when you see multiple ones with no relation to each other...
Like is a Dwarf monk who keeps clean shaven, avoids alcohol and excess, has no real need for gold outside of utilitarian needs, philosophically prefers natural chaos to artificial order, and does not speak in a scottish accent just "a demihuman in a dwarf suit" or does the fact that the player has chosen to play that character against the stereotype matter? If nothing else if the stereotype were different, it would inform the character differently.
The 'normal' demihuman races have had a LOT, LOT longer to have their culture affect their thinking. As such, it makes a lot more sense to expect less coming from their race. Right now culture and ancestry are pretty much the same thing for them or at the very least that of living relatives. Even an odd goblin that differs greatly from other goblins should at least act a little like one in some ways.
Plus, I mean, the +4 Dex/+8 Stealth thing was a PF1 problem. Not only are the stat boosts you get from your ancestry much less of a big deal now, but all of the ancestries thus far are fairly balanced against each other. So people mostly play goblins because they want to.
Goblin has both Dex and Cha boosts and no str flaw so I'd argue it has attractive stats for PF2 + base darkvision: for core, they are pretty good. I personally like their stats more than the other small folk. As to "people mostly play goblins because they want to" I've seen some of this too but in the 'cool I get to burn things!' way. [literally the dude's background was a straight up giggling arsonist... :P pass...]
It just seems like a weird double standard to insist that ancestries A,B, and C can be whatever kind of person they want, but ancestries D, E, and F are intrinsically bound by whatever species they are.
I find it a completely reasonable double standard: they've gone from monsters to PC's in 10 short years so I hold them to a different standard from races and cultures that have interacted with each other for thousands of years.
Now I've never been saying they are "intrinsically bound by whatever species they are" but there has to be some kind of history and buildup to it: a goblin doesn't wake up one morning and does a 180 in attitude.
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It's like the old forgotten realms escapee good drows: sure one can happen but when you see multiple ones with no relation to each other...
I actually think this is kind of obvious though, escapee 'good drow' in FR with no relation to each other are a given in the same way LGBTQ+ folks transplanted from highly conservative communities with no relation to each other are a given.
When a community makes it impossible to live as yourself, you leave, and in the real world plenty of people feel outcasted from their communities, we have Japanese people who are completely alienated by the high pressure society, we have kids in religious situations who grow up to be atheists. We have kids whose parents taught them to accept arranged marriages who later reject it.
We have Americans who feel disaffected by mainstream American culture and instead immerse themselves in media from elsewhere as much as they can. Chefs who claim they didn't understand food could be art until they were exposed to something wildly different than where they grew up.
In the real world, culture is far from destiny, its actually kind of a plot hole that more 'good' members of the traditionally evil races don't exist in FR, and a holdover from alignment as biology.
I'm a black sheep in my own family, and in my community, so its not hard to imagine that a lot of Goblins could not fit into 'classic' goblin society.