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I've wanted to do a guide on a martial class for some time. The recommendations just come out so different.
The ratings are relative to each other and are more about pointing out the differences as I see them. Hopefully its useful to you, and you can see past my prejudices to find some gems.
This has been interesting for me but I've had enough. I'm not expecting to do another guide.
Comments are welcome.
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Putting the first and biggest choice barbarians tend to make, their instinct, at the back of the guide is not how I would do it. Also you should check out this thread, the dev comment I linked to, and consider how it impacts the relative value of the damage boosts.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42y67?Instance-of-Damage
Animal Skin is basically the main reason to go Animal Barbarian, at lvl 6 to 13 they are +2AC over the other Barbarians during rage and after lvl 13 +1AC, making them the Barbarian that will survive longer and take more hits.
Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
Animal Skin is basically the main reason to go Animal Barbarian, at lvl 6 to 13 they are +2AC over the other Barbarians during rage and after lvl 13 +1AC, making them the Barbarian that will survive longer and take more hits.
Only, I ran through the numbers and I did do my calculation wrong before
As a barbarian should rage constantly that is the only situation to consider.
From level 6 through 12 Animal Skin is 2 ahead of Medium Armour and 1 ahead of Full Plate
From level 13 to 18 it is 1 ahead of Medium Armour and the same as Full Plate.
From level 19 to 20 it is 1 ahead of Medium Armour and 2 over Full Plate
Though if you are getting your expert armour proficiency from Champion there is a hiccup of 2 down at level 13.
Putting the first and biggest choice barbarians tend to make, their instinct, at the back of the guide is not how I would do it. Also you should check out this thread, the dev comment I linked to, and consider how it impacts the relative value of the damage boosts.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42y67?Instance-of-Damage
Ok I moved it. Too easy.
So you are quoting that discussion as evidence that Draconinc Instinct will run into problems with Damage Resistance being applied twice in some cases.
That is true, and I'll note it. A lot of people will overlook it
But you should also know that the use of resistance in the Bestiary has changed a lot in PF2. There just isn't the same number of creatures with blanket resistance or multiple resitances anymore. I'm not sure it is a major problem. Especially once you get away from fire - which you should do.
Your Unarmored defense also increases at level 19. So it's always ahead Medium Armor.
Your Unarmored defense also increases at level 19. So it's always ahead Medium Armor.
Ok, you have to make some assumptions about where your DEX score is at that level which brings it back but yes. I've edited the previous number
Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
My big problem with Animal is that they are stuck with 1d10 weapon, 2 points of rage damage, no better AC. Until level 6/7. Its pretty woeful to start with.
Fury is just bad. I'm not sure what the story is there. Did they have some feats for it then just kill them?
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I see the Animal Barbarian as the Tank Barbarian, d10 weapon that let you have a free hand or a shield is huge, no other Barbarian have that versatility without dropping to a d8 weapon.
And then have the fact that they don't have to use an action to draw a weapon in the first turn of combat.
At low level, Barbarians tend to overkill most of the time anyway. The damage difference is not so much of a big deal. And, clearly, it doesn't deserve 1 star just for that.
Putting the first and biggest choice barbarians tend to make, their instinct, at the back of the guide is not how I would do it. Also you should check out this thread, the dev comment I linked to, and consider how it impacts the relative value of the damage boosts.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42y67?Instance-of-Damage
Ok I moved it. Too easy.
So you are quoting that discussion as evidence that Draconinc Instinct will run into problems with Damage Resistance being applied twice in some cases.
That is true, and I'll note it. A lot of people will overlook it
But you should also know that the use of resistance in the Bestiary has changed a lot in PF2. There just isn't the same number of creatures with blanket resistance or multiple resitances anymore. I'm not sure it is a major problem. Especially once you get away from fire - which you should do.
Sure, it won't come up as often, but any time you fight an incorporeal creature or try to damage a hazard, dragon's damage plummets. It is also technically magic damage so it interacts with golem antimagic. Any campaign is going to have some combination of ghosts, golems, and hazards, which means that your draconic rage ability will occasionally be useless-- or worse than useless, because you may not realize you're losing out on damage and should just be using the measly +2 base rage damage.
Giant Totem's damage advantage isn't huge, but it always applies and is quite good for punching through hardness and resistance. Even Spirit Rage, which rocks ghosts, doesn't affect constructs or hazards.
Edit: I guess my larger point is all of the Instincts seem largely balanced to me, with the possible exception of Fury. I think Fury suffered because it was largely balanced against the weaker totems in the playtest, but then all the totems got turned into upgraded instincts. Still, even Fury has stuff going for it. Like giant, it can punch through hardness and resistance better than spirit or dragon but doesn't take the giant AC penalty. It has maybe the broadest damage resistance, despite the weird unarmed gap. And that extra feat can be a really big deal. Every barbarian I've seen has taken Sudden Charge at 1st level, but Raging Intimidation is such an important feat if you actually want to use Intimidation. Which most barbarians do. It feels like a borderline feat tax, honestly, but barbarians have so many other good feats competing against it.
Animal Instinct works well w/ maneuvers. Having a free hand to grab, plus your main, high-die-type attack available to hit that grabbed foe is a hard combo to get (w/ Monk being the other route, though a Rogue can use Sneak Attack to contend).
Predator's Pounce will often grant an attack or 2nd attack in harsh circumstances, when you need it most.
And in more social venues, you can go in w/o a weapon! (Though on the flip-side, you won't benefit much from looted boss-weapons.)
Yet I don't like though having to touch everything! Spikes & oozy creatures often hurt those using unarmed attacks, often vs. a Reflex save which is poor for Barbarians. In more monstrous campaigns, especially into the abyss, hell, or deep underground, I'd avoid this Instinct.
Fury Barbarians, while poor because that bonus feat is meh, do have niches. MCD Barbarians will often default to it, and in a city campaign, the DR vs. all weapons would shine, i.e. the APs involving crowns, thieves' guilds, pirates, etc. Other Barbs (and their size and/or anathema) might have a tougher time navigating city social circles.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I feel like Instincts are like the new Favored Enemy: talk to your GM or consult a player's guide before picking one, because they will work better thematically and mechanically in certain campaigns.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I feel like Instincts are like the new Favored Enemy: talk to your GM or consult a player's guide before picking one, because they will work better thematically and mechanically in certain campaigns.
I don't deny that. The GM interpretation of the rules, and the specific campaign that you have will have a massive impact. Some will try to play the rules as tightly as they can, some will be more interpretive - which can be good in its own way, and those interpretations and reading of the rules will vary a lot.
a) Giant Instinct - there is a good argument that even walking inside a normal building with an oversize weapon should attract penalties, let alone when the barbarian become large or huge. How often that applies is totally up to the GM. I see it as a problem because a couple of the local GMs I know would come down firmly on it. Some are just going to wave it away and move on. For others Giant Instinst will be useless for an entire dungeon complex.
b) Draconic/Spirit Instinct - yep technically split damage type will have to go through damage resistance twice. In PF2 as you say Golems and Ghosts have a resistance that would trigger it. A different local GM who noticed the issue hand waved it away because he though it was stupid for resistance to be applied twice - thinking that was the intention of the designers. The other GMs haven't even noticed - they treated the damage as all one type.
c) Animal Instinct - has an anathema against using weapons while raging. This is going to cause problems with the tactic of using a shield. Because some GMs are going to see that shield is listed as a weapon and won't make the distinction between shield and shield bash. They might otherwise decide its against the spirit of the anathema. Creating a problem that technically speaking doesn't exist.
d) Fury - as noted if all the monsters are using weapons - this can be the best resistance.
Because I've put a guide out there I feel I have to keep it as tightly to the rules as I can and note the issues for the GMs to make up their own minds on. Obviously my own interpetations are going to show through regardless.
Maybe the designers will clarify these one day. I guess they need too, not so much for local play but for PFS play.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I feel like Instincts are like the new Favored Enemy: talk to your GM or consult a player's guide before picking one, because they will work better thematically and mechanically in certain campaigns.
Ok, I've updated my commentary in the guide around instincts to cover the points raised so far in this thread.
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Only got a chance to read a little bit, but I found a typo:
{. . .}
Con(***): hit points and fortitude saves. You can afford to ignore Con, you are going to get hit.
{. . .}
Supposed to be "can't afford to ignore Con".
Nice guide but the Scythe is not a reach weapon
Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
IMO Spirit is the worst.
Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
My big problem with Animal is that they are stuck with 1d10 weapon, 2 points of rage damage, no better AC. Until level 6/7. Its pretty woeful to start with.
Fury is just bad. I'm not sure what the story is there. Did they have some feats for it then just kill them?
Until they get Weapon Specialization at 7th, an Animal Instinct Barbarian can just use a Bastard Sword, Greataxe, Greatsword, Maul, or any other weapon they want.
Their base Instinct Ability doesn't modify what weapons Rage damage applies to, so it works with all Melee and Unarmed attacks. The damage bonus only becomes specifically for their Animal attacks once they get the Specialization Ability. But yes, +2 is crappy compared to the other Instincts.
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IMO Spirit is the worst.Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
There’s a lot less with Negative/Positive Resistances than Elemental Resistances. Plus coolness.
There’s not really a “worst” one thus far.
I really like the Spirit Instinct feats, the "20% of ranged attacks just miss" and "you can attack at range, with strength without a weapon" are really excellent feats. I just wish there was a 3rd spirit instinct feat.
Plus "there's gonna be a lot of undead" is a thing that campaigns tend to signpost pretty early on (like when they solicit the AP).
Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
Giant seems best for max damage, animal for solid DPS and best defense and then dragon because who does not want to trogdor. Fury seems like a clear case of wanting it there for the sake of having it there but there is no compelling reason to ever choose it.
I really like the Spirit Instinct feats, the "20% of ranged attacks just miss" and "you can attack at range, with strength without a weapon" are really excellent feats. I just wish there was a 3rd spirit instinct feat.
Plus "there's gonna be a lot of undead" is a thing that campaigns tend to signpost pretty early on (like when they solicit the AP).
Yeah, but Spirit's Wrath is really low damage at Level 12, because it doesn't add your Rage or Weapon Specialization damage.
Sudden Charge makes Range basically a non-issue for Barbarians.
Spirit's Interference is too easily replicated by a plethora of other effects to waste a Class Feat on.
Nice guide but the Scythe is not a reach weapon
Fixed. I must be blind
Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
My big problem with Animal is that they are stuck with 1d10 weapon, 2 points of rage damage, no better AC. Until level 6/7. Its pretty woeful to start with.
Fury is just bad. I'm not sure what the story is there. Did they have some feats for it then just kill them?
Until they get Weapon Specialization at 7th, an Animal Instinct Barbarian can just use a Bastard Sword, Greataxe, Greatsword, Maul, or any other weapon they want.
Their base Instinct Ability doesn't modify what weapons Rage damage applies to, so it works with all Melee and Unarmed attacks. The damage bonus only becomes specifically for their Animal attacks once they get the Specialization Ability. But yes, +2 is crappy compared to the other Instincts.
Their anathema stops them from using all weapons with rage from level 1.
No extra damage or special ability till level 7. No good feats till level 6 where it competes with attack of oppourtunity. Thats a big disadvantage. Most gaming tend to happen at the lower levels. The damage increase overall is lower than the others. Yes it is good at higher level. If your starting after level 7 then deer animal form is an excellent pick - I wouldn't touch the other animals.
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Yeah, but Spirit's Wrath is really low damage at Level 12, because it doesn't add your Rage or Weapon Specialization damage.
Its is not great damage for a barbarian, but it is OK damage range 120 ft and a good to hit roll. Expecially if your dex is still 16 or less.
Sudden Charge makes Range basically a non-issue for Barbarians.
May be, but fortifications, difficult terrrain and flying can still be a problem from time to time depending what other resources your party has.
IMO Spirit is the worst.Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
Kinda depends what you are doing. Spirit is very specialized for its biggest effects but it is a specialization that comes up reasonably often. Their raw damage is fine anyway even when they are not going against some kind of undead or creature with vulnerabilities.
Also good reason to go hellknight over champion as barbarian is all extra resistances and armor specialization and +1 bonus to imditation. So questions whether it worth going three class feat + one general feat over champion two class feat.
Over the barbarain class feats. There are a lot to pick up. Unless you are Fury that is.
Thanks for the reminder on armour specialization. Ranger get medium, Champion and Fighter get medium and heavy. But HellKnight is the only archetype so far that gets it?
IMO Spirit is the worst.Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
Fury has no associated feats and the worst bonus to damage. And level 1 feats are very easy to get. So, the only thing Fury has is its damage reduction, which is very campaign dependant.
So, you can say that you dislike Spirit. But Fury is indisputably the worst instinct as there is just no reason to choose it over the other instincts.
But Fury is indisputably the worst instinct as there is just no reason to choose it over the other instincts.
No anathema though. Worth nothing in terms of gameplay of course, however there are plenty of players who would never touch Champions, Clerics, Druids or anything else that has a code or anathema with a ten foot pole...
Fury will probably scale with level 1 options and, more importantly, new Fury-specific feats. Not that that matters today. It's very bland, but still has plenty of room for improvement. I'd still take another option first.
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Giant is a glass cannon. It has one job- do a metric-excrement-ton of damage- and it's very good at it.
Animal, in contrast, is a tank with excellent survivability. Since (most of) its choices let you keep your hands free, it's by far the best option for Athletics builds who want to grapple and trip, and also is the best shield user, since using a shield doesn't require them to compromise on damage output.
Dragon is a solid all-rounder with good melee damage, an AOE, and flight. Dragon's only real issue is that their attacks are liable to suffer from double resistance against certain foes.
Spirit is a more campaign specific choice, but isn't that bad of a base chassis. (Mostly its just the underwhelming feats that hold it back.) It's excellent against undead, archers and flying enemies.
Fury is just kind of meh. The resistances can be great, and not having an anathema isn't bad, but all up there's little reason to recommend it.
I think that Giant, Animal and Dragon are all at about the same level; they just operate in different niches. Spirit is a bit worse, but still fine, and Fury is worse again.
Only got to read a little bit further, but found another typo:
Weaponry:Fighting Styles:Archer: "{. . .} Barbarians are all about melee damage and rage does work with a missile weapon. {. . .}" -- Judging by the rest of what you say there, I think that "does" is supposed to be a "doesn't".
Weaponry:Traits: "Attached - this only part of a weapon: -- seems like at least one word is missing from this,
Readability note: The really light Green (for the second-best tier of options) is hard to read on a white background -- needs to be a bit darker (but not so dark as to be unreadable on a black background if somebody is reading in Dark Mode -- not sure about whether the Dark blue for the best tier might have that problem).
Their anathema stops them from using all weapons with rage from level 1.Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
My big problem with Animal is that they are stuck with 1d10 weapon, 2 points of rage damage, no better AC. Until level 6/7. Its pretty woeful to start with.
Fury is just bad. I'm not sure what the story is there. Did they have some feats for it then just kill them?
Until they get Weapon Specialization at 7th, an Animal Instinct Barbarian can just use a Bastard Sword, Greataxe, Greatsword, Maul, or any other weapon they want.
Their base Instinct Ability doesn't modify what weapons Rage damage applies to, so it works with all Melee and Unarmed attacks. The damage bonus only becomes specifically for their Animal attacks once they get the Specialization Ability. But yes, +2 is crappy compared to the other Instincts.
Oh, wow. I missed that. That's terrible.
IMO Spirit is the worst.Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
Fury has no associated feats and the worst bonus to damage. And level 1 feats are very easy to get. So, the only thing Fury has is its damage reduction, which is very campaign dependant.
So, you can say that you dislike Spirit. But Fury is indisputably the worst instinct as there is just no reason to choose it over the other instincts.
I like it because Barbarian has more great feats at every level than any other class, and taking Fury removes some of those options, so you don't feel required to take the Instinct specific options. Resistance to all Weapons is also pretty powerful.
But yes, from a purely mechanics standpoint, even if you want to just be an Athletics focused Barbarian, you are probably still better off going Giant or Dragon and just not taking the Instinct Feats.
Finished reading:
Ancestries:Goblin: "Charhide Goblin *** sighter better than normal fire resistance." -- should be "slightly better".
Multiclassing as a Barbarian: No Sorcerer?
I guess Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a good way to replicate Bloodrager or Rage Prophet, and sounds like Bard might not cut it for replicating Skald.
Also looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a way to do a Dexterity Barbarian (like Urban Barbarian), unless I missed a Barbarian Class Feat that lets you do this.
Finished reading:
Ancestries:Goblin: "Charhide Goblin *** sighter better than normal fire resistance." -- should be "slightly better".
Multiclassing as a Barbarian: No Sorcerer?
I guess Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a good way to replicate Bloodrager or Rage Prophet, and sounds like Bard might not cut it for replicating Skald.
Also looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a way to do a Dexterity Barbarian (like Urban Barbarian), unless I missed a Barbarian Class Feat that lets you do this.
Yes there are still a lot of PF1 options that aren't available yet in PF2.
I'm not seeing any sensible way to combine rage with spell casting.
...
Also looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a way to do a Dexterity Barbarian (like Urban Barbarian), unless I missed a Barbarian Class Feat that lets you do this.
Well, other than the class giving a bonus to strength as part of its kit there's nothing precluding you from playing a dex barbarian. It's just that rage strongly discourages agile weapons (it halves your damage bonus from rage) but you could roll up with 16 Dex and pick up a curve blade or dueling sword and go to town.
It's just that finesse weapons have lower damage dice and the barbarian is all about big damage numbers.
Also looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a way to do a Dexterity Barbarian (like Urban Barbarian), unless I missed a Barbarian Class Feat that lets you do this.
Well, other than the class giving a bonus to strength as part of its kit there's nothing precluding you from playing a dex barbarian. It's just that rage strongly discourages agile weapons (it halves your damage bonus from rage) but you could roll up with 16 Dex and pick up a curve blade or dueling sword and go to town.
It's just that finesse weapons have lower damage dice and the barbarian is all about big damage numbers.
Right.
Only Rogues are pure Dex warriors (albeit fragile), yet most of the other warriors can do enough damage w/ a Dex/finesse build, like the non-Barbs w/ agile weapons getting better MAP.For an Urban Barbarian, I might go w/ Thief Rogue MCD Barb. The Barb's damage increase stacks w/ the Dex damage as much as it does the typical Str damage. The 14 Str is a bit costly, but you don't need to increase it.
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Barb-buckler or Swash-barian has potential too once the APG comes out (assuming the final Swashbuckler has a lot in common with the very-well-received playtest version.)
The Swashbuckler is kind of about one big hit, and punishing mistakes which plays well with Barb tech.
Why do you say that spirit rage deals 2 damage types?
It cleary says it does positive or negative instead of normal damage.
so you only have to deal with positive or negative damage resistance while raging. And postive and negative damage resistance is relatively rare as far as I know.
When you are raging, you can increase your damage from Rage from 2 to 3 and deal negative or positive damage, instead of the normal damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack (choose each time you Rage).
The instincts (Dragon/Spirit) change the type of the all the rage damage which is additional damage.
But the weapon damage remains its normal type. Do you disagree?
If all the damage is changed type then this is not an increased problem.
But the weapon damage type is unconnected to Rage Damage. Listing it that way is unnecessarily confusing.
Well some people are confused. Many people are not making the distinction between damage from the weapon, and additional damage from rage.
Its a simple mistake to make and it does remove the annoying double resistance technicality.
But Paizo have worded it separately.
Finished reading:
Ancestries:Goblin: "Charhide Goblin *** sighter better than normal fire resistance." -- should be "slightly better".
Multiclassing as a Barbarian: No Sorcerer?
I guess Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a good way to replicate Bloodrager or Rage Prophet, and sounds like Bard might not cut it for replicating Skald.
Also looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition doesn't yet have a way to do a Dexterity Barbarian (like Urban Barbarian), unless I missed a Barbarian Class Feat that lets you do this.
Yes there are still a lot of PF1 options that aren't available yet in PF2.
I'm not seeing any sensible way to combine rage with spell casting.
...
You can cast any Spell that doesn't have a Verbal Component while Raging, as Verbal is what adds the Concentration Trait to a Spell.
Granted, that's a relatively small list, but it has a lot of decent combat tricks on it.
Jump, Disappearance, Drop Dead, Guidance, Hallucination, Heal, Harm, Invisibility, Invisibility Sphere, Scintillating Pattern, and Vibrant Pattern.
In addition, there are a relatively high number of Focus Spells for both Clerics and Sorcerers that don't have Verbal Components.