Barbarian Guide


Advice

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I agree double slice is good to get something down quickly. Lvl 15 you get two attacks at 0, -2, +11 (weapon spec, str) and +16 (rage). One attack always hits. 3rd attack at -10, too much to bother I think.

Ranger at 15th level gets 5 attacks (if you have it, hasted at a -4 does work). Also +11 per attack. Circumstance or precision bonus (rogue MC, twin, backstabber). Second sting if you miss (Twin takedown, second sting 2x or 3x, works better than double slice/twin takedown I think). Second sting add all damage but the dice, so backstabber, twin damage would also work. Let's say you hit once (1st attack), it will still be for +11 + weapon dice + 1d6 sneak. But also 3x second sting (+11 + twin) for another 39 damage without hitting.

Status damage (Inspire Courage, Stoke the heart, others) would go for both, but added twice for barb, 5 times for ranger, even on misses.

There is a lot more, of course (characters need to hunt, rage, move, which is an advantage for the barb with less actions spent on attacking), and with DS a barb can do good damage. But it does feel like two weapon fighting works better for agile/multiple attacks styles.

@Castilliano: I did see some two weapon comparisons on Reddit, from about a year ago. But I got the feeling those weren't complete. The formula's used there weren't correct, with chances to hit not capped at 50% (over 50% is a crit), but also not including stuff like Second sting, weapon traits. I've not checked the tool by Citricking, something I want to do sometimes.


Adding some numbers, lvl 15:
DS barb 2 attacks 79 damage on average vs on level monsters (13 dam extra for 3+ attack). 2 picks do most damage.

Flurry rangers needs 4 attacks to do a bit more damage (83), with sawtooth sabers.

No extra runes added, nor any status damage, nor sneak damage. That will be an advantage for the flurry ranger. Add those, and the ranger will do as much damage in three attacks.

So numbers are close, for two actions attacks by either ranger or barb at lvl 15. Lvl 14 is a big drop in damage for both ranger and barb, but the story is about the same.


Hmm. I keep wondering if Double Slice is worth the trade off from a big weapon. Double Slice seems like more consistent damage, but lacks the big hits of a big weapon. I'm also noticing that raging and moving is tough, but this would be mitigated by Dual Weapon Blitz at some point.

I might stick it out with Double Slice to see how Dual Weapon Blitz works. But Dual Weapon Blitz doesn't get the benefit of Double Slice, though it would allow you to attack twice while moving in for that first round after raging.

I figure if you dual weapon blitz, lunging stance which you can activate when starting rage, then move in you can close the distance without setting off AoOs. Then you activate come and get Me and start using Vengeful strike for a better chance at 3 hits per round. If you eventually pick up Dual Weapon Flurry you can swing five times per round with a pretty big penalty, but maybe that is better than a big weapon with Whirlwind attack.

I should test both of these in various scenarios.


While you can attack 5 times with a ranger.

You do less damage per hit so resistance will cut more of your damage.

Also stationary damage turrets are boring.


Deriven Firelion wrote:

Hmm. I keep wondering if Double Slice is worth the trade off from a big weapon. Double Slice seems like more consistent damage, but lacks the big hits of a big weapon. I'm also noticing that raging and moving is tough, but this would be mitigated by Dual Weapon Blitz at some point.

I might stick it out with Double Slice to see how Dual Weapon Blitz works. But Dual Weapon Blitz doesn't get the benefit of Double Slice, though it would allow you to attack twice while moving in for that first round after raging.

I figure if you dual weapon blitz, lunging stance which you can activate when starting rage, then move in you can close the distance without setting off AoOs. Then you activate come and get Me and start using Vengeful strike for a better chance at 3 hits per round. If you eventually pick up Dual Weapon Flurry you can swing five times per round with a pretty big penalty, but maybe that is better than a big weapon with Whirlwind attack.

I should test both of these in various scenarios.

I've been fiddling with Excel these last few days, to create something that gives me an idea of DPR, using logic I understand. Checking the effect of weapons (2 agile vs 1 agile/1 normal, 2 big weapons for barbs, using second sting, etc). There is a lot to account for. Working mostly with rangers as base, as there are lots of options there, but there is already a difference if you use Double slice, twin takedown (effectively two attacks for resistances, but 4 hits all together). Has the best MAP progression, but allows only 1x precision damage (DS) affecting backstabber and sneak damage, and you can't use Second sting, which adds a lot of damage on average for higher MAP attacks. Far from done, but it does give insight in damage vs targets in different situations (flanking, on level or level+ monsters, weapon choice, like pick or d8 weapon, twin, backstabber). Effectively, average numbers don't change to much. Effect of Pick for example is very good on low level monsters with flanking, but against bosses (+2 level) all of a sudden, a battle axe does just as well. Lots of attacks and Sawtooths get better. But the balance, in the end, seems pretty good.

And I've not even gone into precision rangers yet....


I don't know why, but I seem to do more damage with a big 2-hander than with Double Slice. I think it has to do with Double Slice requiring 2 actions per round, which a barbarian doesn't always use well. I think Double Slice would likely do best against a big single target enemy with a lot of hit points and high AC, but for round to found battle the big 2-hander seems better.

You're opening around usually consists of rage, move, and attack. You'll do more damage with a big 2-hander with a single attack.

If you get AoOs or vengeful strike, you'll do more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Moving between enemies using Sudden Charge does more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Per hit damage is higher with a 2-handed weapon and crits are bigger as well.

I'm getting the feeling using a big 2-handed weapon is the wiser choice for a barbarian in more situations with the only big difference being when fighting a single target enemy with a decent resistance and a high AC that will last more than a few rounds. I'm not sure the difference is enough to warrant a dual wield barbarian over a big smasher.

I often spend at least one action on Renewed Vigor to keep up temp hit points that acts like a shield block every round. If I have to move or do something else, I really don't have the actions for Double Slice.


Deriven Firelion wrote:

I don't know why, but I seem to do more damage with a big 2-hander than with Double Slice. I think it has to do with Double Slice requiring 2 actions per round, which a barbarian doesn't always use well. I think Double Slice would likely do best against a big single target enemy with a lot of hit points and high AC, but for round to found battle the big 2-hander seems better.

You're opening around usually consists of rage, move, and attack. You'll do more damage with a big 2-hander with a single attack.

If you get AoOs or vengeful strike, you'll do more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Moving between enemies using Sudden Charge does more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Per hit damage is higher with a 2-handed weapon and crits are bigger as well.

I'm getting the feeling using a big 2-handed weapon is the wiser choice for a barbarian in more situations with the only big difference being when fighting a single target enemy with a decent resistance and a high AC that will last more than a few rounds. I'm not sure the difference is enough to warrant a dual wield barbarian over a big smasher.

I often spend at least one action on Renewed Vigor to keep up temp hit points that acts like a shield block every round. If I have to move or do something else, I really don't have the actions for Double Slice.

it depends on how you play. but yes its easier to make a 2handed barbarian work.


The kobold's grovel can be more useful than it appears. It targets will saves, which tend to be weaker than perception. Additionally, it can be an option when you have to resort to using a bow against fliers and the like. Of course, it isn't good for a barbarian otherwise since it is a concentration action. At best, use it before doing some rage power with mighty rage.

I like the idea of grabbing kobold breath on a dragon barbarian. Doubling up on AoE could let you use it for a large portion of a fight. Grab AoO and a polearm, adn you can make it painful to be in your general area.

It is also interesting to grab a dragon totem different from your kobold color. Double up on resistances, and if something is immune to your red dragon rage powers, then it is probably weak to a cold breath.


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I feel Draconic Arrogance is woefully underscored.

Emotion effects are far more than "calm emotion" in fact, every single fear effect, demoralise, charms, most phantasms, and etc, all are Emotion effects.

+2 status bonus vs every single one of those is huge imo.

Personally i'd put it as Blue, but at the very minimum it should be green.


Deriven Firelion wrote:

I don't know why, but I seem to do more damage with a big 2-hander than with Double Slice. I think it has to do with Double Slice requiring 2 actions per round, which a barbarian doesn't always use well. I think Double Slice would likely do best against a big single target enemy with a lot of hit points and high AC, but for round to found battle the big 2-hander seems better.

You're opening around usually consists of rage, move, and attack. You'll do more damage with a big 2-hander with a single attack.

If you get AoOs or vengeful strike, you'll do more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Moving between enemies using Sudden Charge does more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Per hit damage is higher with a 2-handed weapon and crits are bigger as well.

I'm getting the feeling using a big 2-handed weapon is the wiser choice for a barbarian in more situations with the only big difference being when fighting a single target enemy with a decent resistance and a high AC that will last more than a few rounds. I'm not sure the difference is enough to warrant a dual wield barbarian over a big smasher.

I often spend at least one action on Renewed Vigor to keep up temp hit points that acts like a shield block every round. If I have to move or do something else, I really don't have the actions for Double Slice.

Sounds like excellent reasons for big weapons for barbarians. Action economy is an important part of the game. Which is why I prefer twin takedown to double slice for dual weapon, if you go that route. And why Flurry is such a wonderful addition if you're an animal barb.


Falco271 wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

I don't know why, but I seem to do more damage with a big 2-hander than with Double Slice. I think it has to do with Double Slice requiring 2 actions per round, which a barbarian doesn't always use well. I think Double Slice would likely do best against a big single target enemy with a lot of hit points and high AC, but for round to found battle the big 2-hander seems better.

You're opening around usually consists of rage, move, and attack. You'll do more damage with a big 2-hander with a single attack.

If you get AoOs or vengeful strike, you'll do more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Moving between enemies using Sudden Charge does more damage with a 2-handed weapon.

Per hit damage is higher with a 2-handed weapon and crits are bigger as well.

I'm getting the feeling using a big 2-handed weapon is the wiser choice for a barbarian in more situations with the only big difference being when fighting a single target enemy with a decent resistance and a high AC that will last more than a few rounds. I'm not sure the difference is enough to warrant a dual wield barbarian over a big smasher.

I often spend at least one action on Renewed Vigor to keep up temp hit points that acts like a shield block every round. If I have to move or do something else, I really don't have the actions for Double Slice.

Sounds like excellent reasons for big weapons for barbarians. Action economy is an important part of the game. Which is why I prefer twin takedown to double slice for dual weapon, if you go that route. And why Flurry is such a wonderful addition if you're an animal barb.

Well... Twin takedown is almost unsuable for Barbarians though since Hunt Prey is a Concentrate action.


Yes, I should have added for a agile two weapon martial, either ranger or fighter....


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Updated the Barbarian Guide up to Lost Omens Ancestry Guide

I've split the Ancestries out into a separate Guide as it was just getting insane

There are a lot of really good ancestries out there. Lizardfolk and Beastkin look awesome. I can't wait to play a depressed Mushroom Leshy.

I have finally succumbed to a 5 star rating system.

As always it is just my thoughts. Please let me know when you notice I have missed something good or there is a problem.

Cheers


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It seems like you missed that Animal Skin feat gives a Dexterity modifier cap of +3. That makes it equal to medium armor and inferior to full plate armor, until you get Greater Juggernaut at 13th level, making it equal to full plate. You still need high Dexterity for that, unlike with medium and heavy armor, and you're seriously weaker outside your rage.


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No what I missed was they reinstated the -1 penalty by ommision. It is now very ordinary and only slightly helpful at 13th level where it becomes equivalent to heavy plate.

Being weaker outside of Rage is not really important. As that is only a concern on the first round.

Thanks


I'd argue for listing the Meteor Hammer on the weapons, since it's still reach/trip/backswing even if 1d8, but you have no Bludgeoning options for reach weapons listed. Also the Flail weapon group, which is nice.

Liberty's Edge

I believe the Seedpod Leshy feat is nice for an Animal Barbarian since you can use it while Raging (and benefit from your handwraps' runes). Too bad that Raging Thrower does not apply to it RAW.


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The Raven Black wrote:
I believe the Seedpod Leshy feat is nice for an Animal Barbarian since you can use it while Raging (and benefit from your handwraps' runes). Too bad that Raging Thrower does not apply to it RAW.

Well, you will have decent dex with animal instinct (since you will eventually need 16 to go unarmored), and your full strength bonus should make it better about as good as the guy with a poorly invested shortbow.

It even gets around bludgeoning damage- which is useful because a lot of the functional animal instinct weapons are piercing.

So it isn't bad, and it both gets around one of the key flaws of your instinct and shares the enhancements of your main melee attack. So it is nice enough, especially as a level 1 feat.

Leshies' short stature even makes the head based combat less awkward. I might make a deer build for reach.


I haven't really commented much on other unarmed attacks or ranged unarmed attacks (Leshy, Sprite, Kitsune seem to have them) for animal barbarians. Yes it gets around your anathema of using weapons while raging but you don't get your specialization ability for extra damage. They are all d4 weapons, and short range. The Seedpod is thrown for plus Strength damage whereas the others aren't

I just don't see it as much improvement over dropping out of rage and using a bow. You are clearly better off trying to get more reach or flight. You are only going to do use these ranged attacks if you have to.

I like having a number of reasonable options on a character. This is maybe still a bit weak for me to want to invest resources into it.

Do other people see a use for it? Other than just characterisation


small question: was there a point in time where the "Furious Vengeance" was a feat widouth the Prerequisite of being fury instinct? in the example builds it is present for other instincts, i wanted to be sure what happened there.


SH3R4TA5 wrote:
small question: was there a point in time where the "Furious Vengeance" was a feat widouth the Prerequisite of being fury instinct? in the example builds it is present for other instincts, i wanted to be sure what happened there.

Probably just a mistake on my part. Furious Vengeance is a level 18 feat, and was just taken as a nice to have. It's not important to any of the builds, I'll swap in Brutal Critical instead.


Gortle wrote:


Probably just a mistake on my part. Furious Vengeance is a level 18 feat, and was just taken as a nice to have. It's not important to any of the builds, I'll swap in Brutal Critical instead.

That clarify it well. Any idea how the wrestler dedication fits for a build? Would it be worth? In any case thanks for the answer.


I haven't really had a chance to look at the new archetypes for Grand Bazaar or Secrets of Magic yet. There is just so much new content.

Liberty's Edge

I might rate Grievous Blow (from the Martial Artist archetype) even higher because of the last sentence : "This attack also ignores an amount of resistance to physical damage, or to a specific physical damage type, equal to your level."

It is the solution to Animal Barbarian lacking an access to materials that bypass resistance.


A question concerning the extra damage from draconic instinct:
"While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 4 and change its damage type to match that of your dragon's breath weapon instead of the damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack."

Do you think one could argue that there a two separate possibilites for adjusting your damage?

a) you can increase the damage
b) you can change the damage type

So while I want to increase the damage, I am not going to change my damage type (of the rage bonus damage).

If this were not possible in your eyes, would you believe it to be
a) a balanced houserule
or
b) overpowered?
Thanks for your input.


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Turgan wrote:

A question concerning the extra damage from draconic instinct:

"While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 4 and change its damage type to match that of your dragon's breath weapon instead of the damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack."

Do you think one could argue that there a two separate possibilites for adjusting your damage?

They could argue it, but it'd be a poor one. The different damage type you get from draconic instinct running the risk of being resisted in its entirety is the trade-off they make for getting a greater damage bonus on their rage if they choose to take the different damage type.

So yes. I do believe it would be overpowered to be able to get +4 on your damage and choose to have it stay as slashing/bludgeoning/piercing. If one instinct could just get more damage without any form of drawback, why bother publishing other instincts?


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Turgan wrote:

A question concerning the extra damage from draconic instinct:

"While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 4 and change its damage type to match that of your dragon's breath weapon instead of the damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack."

Do you think one could argue that there a two separate possibilites for adjusting your damage?

a) you can increase the damage
b) you can change the damage type

So while I want to increase the damage, I am not going to change my damage type (of the rage bonus damage).

If this were not possible in your eyes, would you believe it to be
a) a balanced houserule
or
b) overpowered?
Thanks for your input.

My understanding is that the rule is +2 additional damage of the same type as your weapon damage. Or +4 or more additional damage of type of your dragon. I don't see it as unclear.

It does matter for resistance and weakness. Technically it can mean a broad resistance can apply twice.

However not everyone does resistance like that. I noticed a GM this week simply apply resistance once in a mixed damage situation like this. I didn't bother to correct him as it is simpler and probably an OK house rule anyway. A lot of people just miss the detail of it. I am not sure the complexity of the actual rule is worth the hassle of it.

What you are proposing is treat all the damage as one type of your choice. Which is essentially the same. I don't see it as overpowered just a simplification. It will be uncommon for it to matter. But then again I am pretty open minded to changes and strict balance is a low priority for me - I just want balance to be close enough.


Turgan wrote:

A question concerning the extra damage from draconic instinct:

"While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 4 and change its damage type to match that of your dragon's breath weapon instead of the damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack."

Do you think one could argue that there a two separate possibilites for adjusting your damage?

a) you can increase the damage
b) you can change the damage type

So while I want to increase the damage, I am not going to change my damage type (of the rage bonus damage).

If this were not possible in your eyes, would you believe it to be
a) a balanced houserule
or
b) overpowered?
Thanks for your input.

I think it would hurt the other instincts if dragon had no drawbacks to increased damage.

Dragon gets a high amount of damage because it is electrical on top of physical and is magical and any magic immune creature like a golem is immune to it. That is the price of higher damage.

Same as Giant has extra bad AC and is limited to using their giant-sized weapon.

If you want damage versatility, better to take the general damage booster instinct. It maxes at 12, but no worries about resistance.

In my opinion, it would make dragon too good if you could choose the type of damage and still get the bigger bonus. It would never be worth it to take any other instinct. Gortle's guide might as well put dragon as God Tier instinct on his guide.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
Gortle's guide might as well put dragon as God Tier instinct on his guide.

No Barbarian is God Tier. They pay a price for their power.

-1 AC

I am surprised with your position as I don't see the difference as that big a deal. Not many monsters have that sort of broad resistance, even at high levels. It is not as if PCs will normally be fighting Champions.


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Gortle wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Gortle's guide might as well put dragon as God Tier instinct on his guide.

No Barbarian is God Tier. They pay a price for their power.

-1 AC

I am surprised with your position as I don't see the difference as that big a deal. Not many monsters have that sort of broad resistance, even at high levels. It is not as if PCs will normally be fighting Champions.

I see it as devaluing the other instincts. If you're going to house rule, might as well make 16 the standard damage for all of them. Then you have equity again.

I would take dragon every time as a barbarian if I could pick the damage. There would be zero downside for 4 more damage.


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I see the dragon instinct getting extra damage for committing to their dragon kind of damage as comparable to the spirit barbarian only getting free ghost touch if they're doing positive/negative instead of p/b/s.

So it seems deliberate that it's "all fire" or "less damage, but not fire".


The big news for the Barbarian is that Heaven's Thunder has been errated and reprinted so most GMs will allow it now. The extra damage for Animal Barbarians and the way it will combine with their grappling is very good.


Having to turn the extra damage on every other turn makes heaven's thunder a little bothersome to use.

As for the value of dragon instinct, it's already the best one by a mile. Good damage, limitless combat flight, no additional mechanical drawbacks. It certainly doesn't need any help devaluing the other instincts. Ultimately, it'd be a minor buff compared to the advantages it already has.


It's not OFFICIAL official yet, but isn't PFS allowing the primal and imperial dragons as instinct options now? So you could take sea or crystal and have a resistance to a pretty common damage type and silo all your weapon damage into one type anyway, now.


Gortle,

How is Impaling Thrust? It looks pretty damn good on a second reading. I noticed you rated it blue. A two action hit that grabs and when you use your weapon again, weapon damage dice persistent bleed damage. Seems pretty strong. Have you seen it used in play?


I can't say for sure as I prefer the slashing or bludgeoning weapons. I find Whirlwind Strike too hard to resist.


Whirlwind Strike is good fun, especially as a giant barbarian. Just brutal damage. And I wasn't even using a hammer or flail last time since I wanted the big damage pick crits. I want to try it with a hammer or flail.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
egindar wrote:
It's not OFFICIAL official yet, but isn't PFS allowing the primal and imperial dragons as instinct options now? So you could take sea or crystal and have a resistance to a pretty common damage type and silo all your weapon damage into one type anyway, now.

Oh, I see that's new as of this month. I wasn't expecting that, interesting to know.


Silencing Strike doesn't deal damage. No attack roll, it's just a fort save.


Atalius wrote:
Silencing Strike doesn't deal damage. It's just a fort save.

Well I read it as a typical strike which resolves normally doing damage. Then there is a fortitude save - which has the resulting effects based on the check. So I see it as 2 things. If Paizo hadn't used the word Strike I would agree with you.

Curiously there is no requirement for the Strike to hit. Maybe some GMs will interpret it that way.


Ya I was just on Foundry and it's programmed like that, where it doesn't involve an attack roll just simply a Fort save. I also thought it was how you and other people interpreted it. But I think this feat just went from 5 star to 2 star real quick.


The way I read it is very much like the Monk ability Stunning fist.


Ahh ya I think your right actually. Nevermind.

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