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Playing a cleric. Then getting excited. Making multiple clerics
Warpriest gives me pause.
It encourages strength Wich even with reduction of need for dex you won't have much room for. You will start with higher ac. Thanks it. Really.
I can get everything else via ancestry feats.
I can do virtually the same damage as the warpriest with class feats. And achieve the same ac later as well as achieve the same proficiency with a weapon or group of weapons.
So as a cloistered cleric I can pump Dex to catch up on ac and have better chance to hit with a bow. Pick up emblazoned armament/divine weapon/emblazoned energy. Channel smite it they want.
I don't see the warpriest pros outweigh it's cons unless you absolutely didn't want to spend 3ancestry feats to use a weapon.
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I think the general opinion is that warpriest is currently in a tough spot. Though deemed at least somewhat better at low levels the warpriest becomes outclassed by cloistered cleric pretty fast, especially if you consider MC'ing into Champion. Wisdom is the prime stat for both and everything that the warpriest does, the cloistered cleric can probably do better, especially considering the new 3-action economy.
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The main thing is to think of the warpriest as a caster with a little bit of martial ability, vs a balance of casting and martial or a martial with a wee bit of casting.
If you want to be good at fighting, but cast a few spells play a fighter and pick up the cleric dedication feats for casting.
There isn't currently an analog of balance between spell casting and martial ability like 6th level progression spell casters in PF1 were.
You can basically do a 70/30 blend of whatever thing you want to do primarily.
But yeah...warpriest fails at even that and you are better off going clostered into fighter. You just have know you wont be in martial combat until later levels.
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Yes & No.
The Warpriest can mislead since many martial-Cleric builds can be done better w/ a Cloistered Cleric (certainly if offensive spell use is part of the imagery). The higher the level, and the less one needs Ancestral or General Feats, the stronger the argument against Warpriests.
But those are some tough early levels as a Cloistered Cleric builds up to where a Warpriest begins. And the higher Fortitude saves help defense against maneuvers as well as the inflictions a melee combatant has to contend with. And that is a crap ton of feats (only if you need them all that is), slowing down access to Toughness, Diehard, Fleet, and other ones that boost one's martial prowess or durability.
So yeah, one should definitely pre-build to balance the two paths and not assume the Warpriest is the best for war (sad to say).
(Not that I'd recommend either Cleric for somebody wanting to tank, not without plenty of caveats.)
(BTW: Channel Smite works only w/ a melee Strike.)
Yes I knew it only works with a melee strike but you get expertise with melee weapons easily with elf ancestry feats. With finesse. And they will only do more damage via str.
Btw if you want to go fully unarmored throughout. Despite having equivalent AC apparently there are certain runes that only work with medium and heavy armor, so there's that.
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Warpriest is worse than Cloistered at high level, but better at low level. So, it's really a question of expectations. If you plan on playing your character up to level 10 max, Warpriest is a very good choice. Above that, it's better to go Cloistered, the beginning will be harder but the end will be way better.
Warpriest is a great starting class for a number of Archetype builds, such as Hellknight signifier. It doesn't offer much for characters planning on not multiclassing at higher levels though. A lot of Melee focused divine healers are much better off being fighters MCing into Cleric by the mid to high levels.
However, there are some feats that don't port over well to Cloistered cleric due to the level they become accessible, such as replenishment of war. Cloistered clerics also never get that master in fortitude boon of getting successes bumped to critical success.
But it is pretty impossible to make up for being -2 to your save DCs for many levels(7 to 11 and 15+), starting as early as level 7. Especially as you start getting more and more spells and the divine list has such great low level debuffs that stay valuable over the length of the game.
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You get five general feats across your whole career and Warpriest gives you four for taking it, plus scaling armor proficiency, plus a bump in fort saves. It ends up being a way better entry point into various dedications too.
For any build that isn't interested in casting offensively, it's just a big pile of free stuff. Of course, if you do, it's not a great pick, but that's fine.
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Perhaps it'd be a little better off with heavy armor proficiency, and/or master proficiency in either their deity's weapon or their armor at later levels. I understand that caster/martial proficiencies are very different, and a class of one stripe isn't allowed the level of proficiency the others get in their specialties, but seeing as Warpriest has martial level casting proficiency, it makes sense to me to grant a little more of their proficiency in other spheres than just fortitude saves.
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You get five general feats across your whole career and Warpriest gives you four for taking it, plus scaling armor proficiency, plus a bump in fort saves. It ends up being a way better entry point into various dedications too.
For any build that isn't interested in casting offensively, it's just a big pile of free stuff. Of course, if you do, it's not a great pick, but that's fine.
I generally agree with you, but even heal centered clerics need to keep their spell roll pretty decent or else they will never be able to counter act anything. Which I guess they can do by having a high wisdom and taking CHA, but that still feels like you are missing out on a major class feature.
I am playing a goblin cleric of Zon Kuthon, (LN, focusing mostly on worshiping darkness and hating fire/light) and was sorely tempted to go warpriest with the intention of MCing Barbarian, with a focus on going into ecstatic rages, mimicking the night goblin fanatic from the warhammer universe.
Conceptually, I loved the idea, but every time I made the character and looked at what it would look like at level 10, Cloistered cleric looked far more fun to play, because they can still do all of the awesome buffing with spells, but also counteract negative effects and use the incredible debuffs from the divine list.
Maybe part of the problem is that being a harm cleric pretty much means you have to focus on wisdom to get any utility out of a major class feature, but then that also means not neglecting CHA, which made needing STR and CON of 14 impossible. So maybe it is just the case that warpriests of evil gods are particularly sub-optimal.
I do think that we will continue to see heavy armor archetypes that Warpriest will be a cool way to gain access to, with the benefit of casting: Knight vigilant is pretty cool, for example for a front line tank character. And I think we see a lot more with the APG.
Maybe part of the problem is that being a harm cleric pretty much means you have to focus on wisdom to get any utility out of a major class feature, but then that also means not neglecting CHA, which made needing STR and CON of 14 impossible. So maybe it is just the case that warpriests of evil gods are particularly sub-optimal.
Generally you'll get better use out of your harm spells through Channel Smite as a warpriest.
Though this does mean that evil gods with ranged weapons are sort of left in the dust.
Channel smite strikes me as adding extra risk to an harm spell with little reward. I guess it helps with accuracy if you want to drop WIS, but regular 1 action harm does half damage on a successful save and you gain nothing as far as action economy from the channel smite. It uses two actions and expends the spell whether you hit or miss. I guess it is good against enemies with really high fort saves and low AC. But that feels pretty niche.
I could have sworn Champions used Charisma as their casting stat and went either strength or dexterity for their melee stuff.I think the general opinion is that warpriest is currently in a tough spot. Though deemed at least somewhat better at low levels the warpriest becomes outclassed by cloistered cleric pretty fast, especially if you consider MC'ing into Champion. Wisdom is the prime stat for both and everything that the warpriest does, the cloistered cleric can probably do better, especially considering the new 3-action economy.
** spoiler omitted **
They're referring to both types of Cleric, not Cleric + Champion.
And yes, you're correct about stats.
Maybe part of the problem is that being a harm cleric pretty much means you have to focus on wisdom to get any utility out of a major class feature, but then that also means not neglecting CHA, which made needing STR and CON of 14 impossible. So maybe it is just the case that warpriests of evil gods are particularly sub-optimal.
No more than warpriests of other deities if you want to have a "balanced" set of stats. My own warpriest started out with an array of STR14, DEX10, CON14, WIS16, INT10, CHA14. Is that worse than starting with either WIS18, CHA16 or STR16, WIS18? Mechanically yes it is. Worse to-hit, worse DC, worse amount of heals. And all that just for a little CON because I wanted some more durability and better fortitude saves.
However keep in mind that this is also somewhat dependant on which level you look at the char, due to the dimnishing returns on high stats. By level 10 my array will probably look like STR18, DEX12, CON18, WIS18, INT10, CHA18, whereas a more optimized build will either have a STR or CHA of 19 and a WIS of 20 (and probably CON14). The one worse WIS modifier still remains so not optimal it you intend to min/max and to get the most out of your spells and abilities, but not too shabby either.
Nonetheless the problem remains. Once you add a 4th stat to your setup, e.g. CON, you will probably have to live with the fact that you can not have maxed "prime" stats anymore.
Perhaps it'd be a little better off with heavy armor proficiency, and/or master proficiency in either their deity's weapon or their armor at later levels.
Disagree on Master Deific Weapon, they are good enough with Expert and own buffs, problem is more that Trained Martial doesn't advance (and Cloistered get same Expert Deific Weapon 4 levels later). Just scaling Martial to Expert would be fine IMHO and not "force" only Deific Weapon usage at later levels.
I don't think they need Heavy Armor, neither Barbarian or Ranger get it, and if you want it, it's just one General Feat for Trained and Archetypes can advance it... or take Champion MCD. Problem now is Cloistered can take Champion MCD just as easily, and Trained Martial is easy with one General Feat.
I've wondered if allowing it Key Stat bonus into STR/DEX (or even CHA) would be good (not changing spell DC stat).
Also stuff like Armor Spec (Resistance) at higher levels?
Weapon Groups could be utilized not for proficiency advantage, but to grant Crit Spec (beyond Deific Weapon).
In all honesty getting 10 HP/level also would help it while not being especially overpowering in scheme of things.
True Strike + Channel Smite is nice combo for Gorum Warpriest, though Cloistered can do it just as well (outside level 7-10 window where WP has fleeting proficiency advantage).
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My cloistered Cleric decided to forgo an 18 wisdom to be able to ensure a 16 Dex and a 14 CHA, because there are enough great Save targeting spells on the Divine list (which still do useful things on a successful save) that being 1 point behind for spell DC for half the game is not as much as a deal breaker as being a point behind on AC, Reflex save, AND Trip checks made with the spiked chain (my GM plays it where finesse applies to maneuvers made with a weapon with the appropriate trait). It also gives me a +1 bonus to finesse melee attacks, but I almost always trip instead of attack because you can advance your athletics skill MUCH faster than your weapon proficiency, whether you are a warpriest or not. Definitely for any cleric who gets a finesse weapon, warpriest looses almost all of its luster.
But for STR based war priests,
I think a 16 or even a 14 Wisdom is probably OK for a warpriest to be functional, but you definitely don't want to go lower than that. you probably want at least a 14 in CHA too, since healing is supposed to be your big advantage over other tanks, but you probably aren't swinging that and having a 16 STR and 14 CON.
What clerics get harm channeling and Truestrike anyway?
I don't think Master proficiency in weapons is really the solution anyway because it would kick in so late in the game (19th level) that your spells are level 10 by that point and you definitely have better things to be doing than trying to make 2 or more attacks a round.
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Maybe I’m a bit lost here, but why is save DC the end all be all on Cleric? The divine list has plenty of formidable spells that are not at all dependent on DC.
Spells can be supplementary, they don’t strictly have to be offensive.
It's a major potential tool. Issue is WP doesn't give enough to compensate for that loss VS Cloistered.
CC can easily get equal AC early on given difference is just 2 General Feats (possible for Human @ Level 1),
and Champion MCD lets them surpass base WP AC with just 1 Class Feat @ Level 2 (which WP would need 1 General to equal).
Aiming for Expert Heavy destroys WP feat advantage because they need Champion Dedication + Expert Feat: NO difference VS CC.
(though WP has option of 1 General Feat for Heavy to use Hellknight Dedication with more benefits before Expert Heavy Feat)
Deity weapon is same outside 7-10 while Martial doesn't scale, so no big picture distinction in weapons.
Even WP may consider Ancestral/Archetype for scaling weapons outside Deity Favored, so weapons aren't solid advantage for WP.
The main real thing they have going long term is better Fort, but that doesn't really seem to justify trade-off.
I don't think anybody said WP is unplayable, but don't be surprised if it is Erratad, because Cloistered can too easily match it + more.
I think if Fighter and Paladin were only comparison re: "martial class" AC, I wouldn't have problem giving them Expert Heavy, which would solidify AC/Feat advantage VS CC. While they would equal Fighter AC for about 3 levels from 13 to 16 (after only 2 levels of Fighter being ahead), Fighter (with Paladin) would keep sole access to Armor Spec damage resistance which is solid differentiator...
The issue is more that Ranger/Barbarian only get Master Medium with only +1 advantage VS Expert Heavy at 19th, and would be behind by 1 (or more with Rage) from 13th to 18th (and not having Armor Spec to compensate). Which leads me to my preferred solution:
Keeping just Expert Medium but giving WP the ArmorSpec ability. It works just in Medium Armor, or they can get Trained Heavy with 1 General Feat and grab Expert Heavy with 1 Archetype Feat if they want. Still only 2 General Feat (or 2/3 Class Feat?) advantage VS CC in terms of AC (most relevant early on), but they get more out of it later with ArmorSpec resistance even if CC takes Champion MCD. With ArmorSpec resistance they also can manage better with just base 8 HP, although I had also suggested an increase to 10 which doesn't seem game disrupting and further entrenches the distinction combined with ArmorSpec later. Combined with Expert scaling Martial and CritSpec by Weapon Group (not just Deity Weapon) and they start to actually follow thru on their niche, although I feel a swap re: bonus stat (from only WIS) would help their build dynamic alot.
The big issue with dumping WIS, on top of being behind on spell casting proficiency is that a lot of old standby cleric spells for removing negative conditions now require a counter act check. Falling behind in proficiency as well as attribute will mean being 4 to 5 points behind when trying to dispel magic, cure disease/poison, and even a lot of defensive buff spells to protect from offensive magic require counteracts.
No one is arguing you have to keep wisdom maxed out, but most offensive casters will keep their casting stat there, meaning counteract checks will often be against maxed out DCs.
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The big issue with dumping WIS, on top of being behind on spell casting proficiency is that a lot of old standby cleric spells for removing negative conditions now require a counter act check. Falling behind in proficiency as well as attribute will mean being 4 to 5 points behind when trying to dispel magic, cure disease/poison, and even a lot of defensive buff spells to protect from offensive magic require counteracts.
No one is arguing you have to keep wisdom maxed out, but most offensive casters will keep their casting stat there, meaning counteract checks will often be against maxed out DCs.
While generally true I think your numbers are a bit high. Starting off WIS14 (which is minimum for a dwarven cleric anyway) you are +2 behind at levels 1 to 4 and only +1 behind at levels 5 to 20 as far as attribute boni are concerned. However if we add proficiency progression in between warpriest and cloistered cleric to the mix we finally come to:
2 points behind during levels 1 to 4 (solely based on stats)
1 point behind during levels 5 and 6 (solely based on stats)
3 points behind during levels 7 to 10 (stat + prof)
1 point behind during levels 11 to 14 (solely based on stats)
3 points behind during levels 15 to 20 (stat + prof)
And while I would not mind a 2 point difference early on, or a 1 point difference based on the lower casting attribute, once you fall behind in proficiency too things start to get brutal, especially that 3 point difference at the end of your career.
0 points behind during levels 1 to 4 (solely based on stats)
0 point behind during levels 5 and 6 (solely based on stats)
2 points behind during levels 7 to 10 (stat + prof)
0 point behind during levels 11 to 14 (solely based on stats)
2 points behind during levels 15 to 20 (stat + prof)
You forget apex item as soon as you get level 17. So it ends at 4 points behind, unless you take a wisdom apex item, but it would be weird as you have Strength as your main attribute.
What clerics get harm channeling and Truestrike anyway?
I believe Gods & Magic has a solution for this.
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What clerics get harm channeling and Truestrike anyway?I believe Gods & Magic has a solution for this.
Cleric of Gorum already gets it, and Gorum puts the war in war priest.
...and Gorum puts the war in war priest.
"Get lost you brute, you can't outflank the best!" - Iomedae, probably ;)
I was advocating 14 as a min. for wisdom on a warpriest. My comment was directed at the idea of a war priest being fine with Wis as a dump stat, which also probably means not boosting the Wis.
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I was advocating 14 as a min. for wisdom on a warpriest. My comment was directed at the idea of a war priest being fine with Wis as a dump stat, which also probably means not boosting the Wis.
I wouldn't say it needs to be dumped, but even if you stuck with a 12 or 10, that doesn't mean you can't improve it at the Ability Score increase levels (and honestly, why wouldn't they? Dex would be unneeded and so would INT, leaving the other 4 available).
In regards to removing disease and using dispel magic, that's not a good enough reason IMO to say that WIS has to be anywhere near 18/16 or even 14. Not being able to use certain spells well doesn't inherently drop their power, they can just use other spells. Unless we're trying to argue that the WIS dependent spells are somehow >>>> other spells that do not require it.
For one, Dispel Magic is a role anyone with casting can take, it doesn't have to be the Cleric specifically for counter-casting.
Secondly, removing disease can be done by others as well and potentially by the Medicine skill itself.
And as I am emphasizing, picking spells that are not contingent on High WIS is a perfectly acceptable way to play a WP cleric. Saying that because there are spells that require higher wisdom exists on their list means they are going to be far weaker by extension doesn't make sense to me at all.
Does a Sorcerer that doesn't take Fireball become any less effective at their other spells just because they don't have Fireball?
Of course not.
A Warpriest that focuses on spells that accentuate his role, and do not require high wisdom to be effective, is arguably just as effective as a Cloistered that pumps WIS as high as possible. They aren't competing in the same space.
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Warprist weirdly enough provides a better support than the regular priest, Shield block and a higher proef save make quite a difference on a frontline support.
But outside of that and specially if your dm likes throwing low numbers of strong enemies instead of a high number of weak ones or a strong one with lackeys you will have a hard time.
And also warpriest does provide the best fullcaster entry into signifier and into knights of the last wall.
And while i do agree in more cases the cloistered is a lot better like really outmatched in some cases. Hell even divine sorc feels better than warpriest sometimes. He has his own niche and i love him for that and not taking the paladin space xD
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I was advocating 14 as a min. for wisdom on a warpriest. My comment was directed at the idea of a war priest being fine with Wis as a dump stat, which also probably means not boosting the Wis.A Warpriest that focuses on spells that accentuate his role, and do not require high wisdom to be effective, is arguably just as effective as a Cloistered that pumps WIS as high as possible. They aren't competing in the same space.
I pretty much agree, if the War Priest just doesn't care about dispelling effects and diseases, can easily ignore Wis and just use buff spells as enemies dispelling isn't super common from what I've seen.
Level 15 is where the difference is likely to be biggest for the war priest completely dumping wisdom. Assuming that I wanted to be a Warpriest that deliberately tanked my WIS, choosing a race with WIS as a flaw and never invested in it. I am curious for folks to put together an ideal spell list for this single-class character. Including spells from level 1 to 8. I don't mean to put this out confrontationally. I am just interested in seeing where the first character shines when they're save DC and spell rolls are at a +19 vs a cloistered cleric who started with a 16 WIS (so not even maximized) and boosted it to a 20, who has a +26.
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Level 15 is where the difference is likely to be biggest for the war priest completely dumping wisdom. Assuming that I wanted to be a Warpriest that deliberately tanked my WIS, choosing a race with WIS as a flaw and never invested in it. I am curious for folks to put together an ideal spell list for this single-class character. Including spells from level 1 to 8. I don't mean to put this out confrontationally. I am just interested in seeing where the first character shines when they're save DC and spell rolls are at a +19 vs a cloistered cleric who started with a 16 WIS (so not even maximized) and boosted it to a 20, who has a +26.
Are you saying there's nothing to choose from that falls into the "not necessary to have high WIS" spell category?
Even if we chucked the idea of Heightened spells out the window, there are still options to choose from even at the highest levels that do not require high WIS to be effective:
- Regenerate
- Divine Vessel
- Plane Shift
- Moment of Renewal
- Energy Aegis
- etc.....
And then you have spells like Divine Aura, where the primary purpose of the spell is for the bonuses and the save portion is rather secondary to the main goal.
And again that's without heightening.
They only need to find what works for their particular character for it to actually work. If that means preparing the same spell with no save heightened at every level, then whatever, but it doesn't make them any "weaker" just less versatile in circumstances that call for those WIS based spells.
And this is with the spells on the list that we have currently, which, to be completely frank, is missing the primary spells that will comfort the WP long term (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc.) which will likely come in the APG.
As more spells get added to the Divine list, so too will the number of spells that do not require WIS, and therefore open them to more selections, so long term versatility will expand, but there's certainly enough to pick from currently where it's a non-issue to keep a lower wisdom.
And Wisdom is going to climb points from 14 -> 18 as fast as a 18-> 20 (+1 difference at level 10 which continues to remain at +1 up through level 20 if they both increase it from then).
That's a total of +3 difference realistically for a 14 WP start vs 18 CC start .
If we make it a 12, the difference expands to +4 total at level 20, since the 12 climbs faster (and opens them to expand another stat since the staggered +1 isn't worth it).
No one said a WP had to dump WIS to abysmal levels, but the idea that you cannot specialize in STR or you'd be awful, is just a huge stretch for me.
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Two house-rules I have implemented successfully:
CR Page 117: A Clerics Key Ability is now Wisdom or Charisma.
CR Page 119: For the Warpriest’s first doctrine, instead of just gaining the Shield Block general feat, you can now choose between: Diehard, Fleet, Shield Block, or Toughness.
IMO these have helped out Warpriests a lot in my game, especially if the deity weapon is like a Greatsword or a Longbow.
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Two house-rules I have implemented successfully:
CR Page 117: A Clerics Key Ability is now Wisdom or Charisma.
CR Page 119: For the Warpriest’s first doctrine, instead of just gaining the Shield Block general feat, you can now choose between: Diehard, Fleet, Shield Block, or Toughness.
IMO these have helped out Warpriests a lot in my game, especially if the deity weapon is like a Greatsword or a Longbow.
Apart from the level 1 doctrine in my opinion the level 3 doctrine could also need some love. Whats the point of getting martial weapons at trained level if you want to use your deities favorite weapon anyway, at least from level 7 onwards when you become an expert and can utilize the critical specialisation with it? For shield bashes and the occasional longbow use? To me (and my warpriest) this doctrine level feels like a filler, not like an actual improvement.
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Level 15 is where the difference is likely to be biggest for the war priest completely dumping wisdom. Assuming that I wanted to be a Warpriest that deliberately tanked my WIS, choosing a race with WIS as a flaw and never invested in it. I am curious for folks to put together an ideal spell list for this single-class character. Including spells from level 1 to 8. I don't mean to put this out confrontationally. I am just interested in seeing where the first character shines when they're save DC and spell rolls are at a +19 vs a cloistered cleric who started with a 16 WIS (so not even maximized) and boosted it to a 20, who has a +26.
Depends on your deity of choice and how you approach combat. Lets take Iomedae for example.
Level 15 Spell selection:
Cantrips: Shield, Detect Magic, Guidance, Stabilize, Forbidding Ward
1st: True Strike x3
2nd: Enlarge, Faerie Fire, See Invisibility
3rd: Heroism, Disrupting Weapons, Comprehend Languages
4th: Air Walk x2, Freedom of Movement
5th: Death Ward, Breath of Life, Endure Elements
6th: Heroism x3
7th: Divine Vessel, Energy Aegis, Regenerate
8th: Righteous Might, Divine Aura, Heal x5 (assuming 18 Cha at 15th)
Focus Spells assuming you take the feats: Athletic Rush (+10 speed), Enduring Might (DR 21 vs 1 attack)
The spell list works a bit better with a Fighter MC + Opportunist feat to grab AoOs, since it has a number of options to increase the size of the Cleric and provide reach.
If you've got 2 rounds to buff, 8th level Righteous Might + 6th level Heroism is hard to beat, with a net +28+2=+30 attack modifier at 15th, dealing 3d8+15+1d6 good. And can still use your shield and cast spells. Its got some prep time, but that is pretty respectable when compared to a 1-handed fighter's +30 (15+8+2+5) and 3d8+13+2d6 elemental.
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I second what Midnightoker said.
Accepting as a design parameter "no/few spells with attack rolls or DCs" frees up major investment in ST/DX/CON/CHA, especially off of the Divine list.
That said, there are two main challenges:
1) WIS is Prime Stat without an alternate (not even CHA) at this time, so, that "wastes" a boost if you decide to accept the parameter above.
2) There are no Cleric feats that allow self-healing + attacking with a similar "action cheat" to many of PF2's classes - this would go along way towards making the Warpriest a "tankier" class.
Cheers.
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I second what Midnightoker said.
Accepting as a design parameter "no/few spells with attack rolls or DCs" frees up major investment in ST/DX/CON/CHA, especially off of the Divine list.
That said, there are two main challenges:
1) WIS is Prime Stat without an alternate (not even CHA) at this time, so, that "wastes" a boost if you decide to accept the parameter above.
2) There are no Cleric feats that allow self-healing + attacking with a similar "action cheat" to many of PF2's classes - this would go along way towards making the Warpriest a "tankier" class.
Cheers.
You could always save a single action heal along side two attacks as your third action.
Takes your ability to shield but still something.
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The main "problem" if you dump WIS and go all heal/buff/self buff offensive warpriest is not that it is not working, it is that you will probably need another guy in your party who is actually good at curing conditions and appyling debuffs.
The main "problem" if you dump WIS and go all heal/buff/self buff offensive warpriest is not that it is not working, it is that you will probably need another guy in your party who is actually good at curing conditions and appyling debuffs.
Ideally you or your party can handle this by investing skill feats and increases in medicine, and the divine list is not mandatory for a party to handle an adventure.
I dunno if that holds up in practice.
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The main "problem" if you dump WIS and go all heal/buff/self buff offensive warpriest is not that it is not working, it is that you will probably need another guy in your party who is actually good at curing conditions and appyling debuffs.
In my opinion, the main problem is that you lose all your versatility. The enemy flies, you have a greatsword. The enemy's at range, you have a greatsword. Spike damage? Nope, greatsword. AoE damage? Nope, greatsword.
You lose a lot of efficiency. You can only operate in optimal condition. If the fight's a bit tricky, you're out.
True Strike and Enlarge aren't even on the divine spell list. Where do you get them from?
Gorum grants both. Iomedae only grants true strike though.
True Strike and Enlarge aren't even on the divine spell list. Where do you get them from?Gorum grants both. Iomedae only grants true strike though.
I think this might have been Errata'ed...
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We’re painting with a pretty broad brush about what a WP can and can’t do by investment, when it’s been pointed out how the difference in total modifier if you were to leave it at 12 is only +4.
And Heal never loses its ability to be Heal regardless of WIS.
As for debuffs/condition removal, it’s not like Clerics were even competing for top tier on the former and the latter is also not exactly a “must”.
If the enemy is flying, there’s plenty of ways the WP can still contribute, like getting the ability to fly and then continuing to fight as normal. Whether that be with Ethereal Jaunt, another caster, or a magic item, it’s no less valid for a WP than anyone else who doesn’t have magic.
These assumptions about a WP not being able to fit in comps or not being able to fit in comps as good as CC all assume worst case scenarios for the WP.
CC in a wizard bard rogue party is an awful party too, but somehow we’re only talking about scenarios where WP is in a party with no other healing.
That’s a party composition issue, not a WP issue and neither doctrine works in every single party composition.
The main "problem" if you dump WIS and go all heal/buff/self buff offensive warpriest is not that it is not working, it is that you will probably need another guy in your party who is actually good at curing conditions and appyling debuffs.
I know dispelling monsters are not common at lower levels, but being level 15 with a 19 DC means you are in a lot of trouble against higher level demons and other outsiders that can dispel at Will. A Boar Demon, lvl 14, will have a spell DC of 34. That means they will dispel everything but your 8th level spells on a 5 plus. They also fly, meaning your character may never be able to get to them.
Medicine checks to remove conditions is not something happening in combat either so that would be disconcerting to me, but perhaps if there was a dedicated abjuation wizard in the party, that was good with the dispels and the banishments, your party might be ok. Also this character has deliberately dumped wisdom meaning that they are probably more likely to want to be legendary at athletics than medicine by lvl 15, but even if they are, they are only even with the save DCs of monsters a level lower than them.
I just think it is important to remember that one of the biggest advantages a caster has over a martial is versatility, and a lot of that is lost trying to focus on using casting in PF 2 to out martial a martial. Which is a little different than PF1, where casting could pretty much cover everything without losing much versatility because of number of spell slots, scaling of low level spells and the action economy boon of being able to cast most buff spells before combat and have them last for more than a minute.
In PF2, those buffs usually have to come out in combat which makes dispelling them more manageable on a 1 for 1 casting ratio.
As long as the rest of the party is comfortable looking at your character as a melee tank and not a traditional cleric it could be fun, but your party probably needs another cleric or divine sorcerer in it, or at least an abjuration competent wizard. As well as someone who can put the hurt on at range. Those are a lot of roles to be shutting yourself out of by tanking your casting stat.