Siro's page

Remember, and take note of EVERYTHING your character can do. Even if it’s an ability your character does not use, or is not optimized for, if your character can do it, it’s another option, and something which can save your party, either through its use, or allowing you more freedom with the things you normally do by incorporating those lesser used options/knowing they are a back up.

Also remember, when someone on the party is better at a skill then you, you can still in most situations aid them, most likely giving them a bonus on the check. (Ie if someone is using ‘Treat Wounds’ on your party and you got some medical know-how, help them.)

A Feint is just another combat maneuver, no more tenet breaking then taking advantage of your superior sword techniques against a less skilled foe in battle.

Of course any strict DM can make anything seem like tenet breaking=

“ I am taking away your champion abilities because you did not give the red dragon the standard two weeks notice of intent to combat (not acting honourably) while rallying your other party members against it to improve YOUR chances of winning (taking advantage of others) and cheating on your wife (with said dragon) and lying to your party members about your smothering side dragon (sometimes in the middle of said cheating).”

My favourite is the Bard. The magic I tend to like are illusions and enchantments, which are in there wheel house, and I like playing Charismatic characters with some knowledge to back it up. Plus they still retain a bit of the ‘Jack of all Trade’ mentality (not as much as PF1) which I tend to go towards for having a option in any situation.

Rogue is quickly becoming one of my top classes. Between the multitude of Skills, Skill Feats and Rackets you can go into so many different directions with the Rogue, something which I can very much appreciate, especially given where they were in PF1.

Investigator looks to be a very interesting class. Have not had a chance to play it yet, so can’t say it’s one of my favourites, but an Int based class that does not rely on spellcasting, and instead relies on an interesting attack mechanic (Devise a Stratagem) and skills is refreshing. Can see some cool combinations with Methodologies and MCing.

For the specific wizard slots for Illusion have Color Spray at low levels, stun + blinded on a failure is very strong, incapacitation so you will have to heighten, do that until lvl 4 and then stop when you get 3rd lvl spell slots.

Illusory Creature is solid and so is Invisibility.

Invisibility Sphere is good for stealth missions.

Phantasmal Killer is a classic.

2nd the Illusory creature for both in and out of battle use, especially if you are the creative type. Illusory Object may also be decent for a low level ‘Wall’ or whatever else you can think to use a believable image of an object for.

As far as lower levels for Skills points I do not know, as we were around LV8-9 when we made the conversion. Same amount of initial skills as core {ie class skills + int mod}. Some stayed on the path of maxing out three skills, while others 'cannibalized' one of those skills to become a bit more rounded skill wise. Though you are right, the major differences did not happen until the higher level.

I would say you could start seeing a difference around level 6. This is where someone going down maxing out there top three stats as fast as they could would save there points for level 7, using those and the ones provided at level 7 to increase a skill to 'Master', while someone whom is going for a more rounded skill set could spend the points to increase a 3rd skill to 'Expert' instead, and then raise another skill to 'Expert' at level 7.

You also do get to increase a skills proficiency a bit more with skill points. In the original system, most classes could become Legendary in 3 skills by Level 20. Skill points system allows them to reach Legendary in 3 skills and Master in another one.

I would recommend also taking a look at the Skill Point Variant system as well. Our group as been enjoying the flexibility of it, as it allows the option over time to become 'good' with many skills or a 'master' of a few.

One thing you may wish to watch out for in a No level to Prof. system are things which are balanced by there level. For example 'Summon 'X' spells become much more powerful, as the creature summoned are a lot closer stat wise to the creature they are facing when not including level bonuses.

I could be wrong here, but what I'm getting from this is it’s possible to bring to the table a party of= 1) Mace Windu from Star Wars 2) Nick Fury from the Marvel Universe 3) Jules Winnfield from Pulp Fiction, and...4) Frozone from the Incredibles

"He has control of the Senate and the Courts. He's too dangerous to be left alive. I recognize the council has made a decision, but given that it's a stupid-a** decision, I've elected to ignore it. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee. Where's my super suit?"

Its possible, but also remember the other side. It was errata'd to fix an issue, referencing a spell which no did not exist in the PF2 world.

'Vampiric Touch' on the staff is non-problematic. Making another errata to change it back would require more work, and possibility changing already updated printings, for something which is not an issue, in terms of gameplay.

And it would also mean an item from the Core Rulebook would reference something outside of it.

Siro wrote:

So, according to the document, 'Enervation' is a spell again. Wonder what this will mean for the 'Staff of Necromancy"?

There’s no Staff in the APG with Enervation...

But the spell seems real good

The 'Staff of Necromancy' <Greater> was originally printed as having 'Enervation' as one of its spells. It was changed in the 1st errata to have 'Vampiric Touch' because we live in a world where 'Enervation' no longer exists. On July 30th, the world of PF2 will change to have 'Enervation' again and the original reason for the errata will be rendered mute.

So, according to the document, 'Enervation' is a spell again. Wonder what this will mean for the 'Staff of Necromancy"?

-Bag of Holding <Type1> for becoming a pack rat / generally the point where a player does not have to worry about Bulk math as much.

-Insistent Door Knocker for when you really need to get into something / or to put a wall between you and something else. + points for being able to apply it in 3-dimensional applications.

-The Feather Tokens all can be pretty good, with special mention going to the 'Chest' version, though the 'Bird' can become even more useful depending on the situation, and don't knock the 'Holly Bush' and its ability to provide instant cover.

-Bottomless Stein {Uncommon} because who does not want/can't find a use for infinite boozes.

While I do agree Alchemists are underpowered they do have some tricks over a Druid.

-More reagent items them Druids have spells. They may not have as big of a bang but you have more for the buck.

-The ability to give those reagent items to other to use, so you can bestow the gift of being a healbot on to your party members.

-The ability to give new options to your party members threw items which may have been to cost restrictive otherwise. A Barbarian may use there third action to take out and next turn use a 'Elixir of Life', allowing him to take an even greater tank role, and turning him into a raging drinker, or a Fighter can turn into a pseudo elemental damage dealer with proper bombs.

-Treating reagents like spells, they are prepared, spontaneous casters which can treat every 'spell' to the maximum efficiency they can create {yes over-hyping, but stay with me.}. You can prepare reagents at the beginning of the day, gaining double the yield, while also being able to hold some of them for 'Quick Alchemy' turning into whatever you need from your book, at the time which you need it. Plus {assuming you have the formula, which is the catch} you can use each 'spell' at its highest version. A Druid does not have the ability to prepare a spell on the fly for the situation, and needs to take into account what slots they prepare it in

I'm not going to say Alchemists are the best class, and a good portion of the time, I think the Druid will outshine them by a bit. But I think they are still useful both in role playing and mechanics, in the niche they occupy.

Hmm, lowering the levels of what could be summoned could be a solution.

I've toyed with the idea of taking a page out of 5th ed for the summon problem in the PwL ruleset.

Basically, whenever you 'Concentrate' on the summoned spell, you roll a flat D20 {not sure on how to do the DC, but I would like it to be based on spell level relative to the caster, controlling creatures summoned from there higher/highest level slots as a decent chance of failing, while summons from there lower slots are almost a automatic success}. On a failure the creature acts on its own accord for the round, often treating the summoner as 'Hostile' and will try to attack them and anyone friendly to them {DM desertion depending on the situation and what was summoned.]

The idea being it is a very powerful option, but it also turns it into a risky one, and one which the summoner may think twice about summoning at there highest level, and gives them a decision on wither to concentrate on the creature and risk its wrath, or choose the 'safer' option and let it slide, losing the creature in the process.

The problem can get worse at higher levels {namely from level 16 on} because of the 'Effortless Concentration' class feat. It not only gives the caster a free action to Concentration on there current summon, but allows them the action economy to summon and keep up a second one {along with leaving them with two actions on subsequent turns after concentrating on both}

One of the main reasons summons are considered more walls and flanking buddies then attackers is because of the disparity of there stats versus what they are probably facing. For the most part, this is because the summoned creatures level will be lower then the creatures they are facing, meaning they will have a lower level bonus then them.{Often times a -4 determent if highest slot is used at mid-levels onward}

Stats become a lot closer once you remove level bonuses from the equation, making them so much more in battle {a bit like PF1 in my opinion}. Look at the Adjusting Encounters chart . You will find lower level creatures much more of a threat without level, and the 'Summon X' spells lets you place those creatures on the board in your favor. The times I've used this system I found summoned creatures to really change the course of battle and that they need not have been summoned using the casters highest level slot to do so.

Note= I have not concluded if it is a major issue, as I've only played a bit with it. However from my experience, there is a large power spike when using "Summon X" spells in the no level bonus system compared to base PF2, and its something both GM's and players may have to consider when using the alternative rule set.

One of the main reasons summons are considered more walls and flanking buddies then attackers is because of the disparity of there stats versus what they are probably facing. For the most part, this is because the summoned creatures level will be lower then the creatures they are facing, meaning they will have a lower level bonus then them.{Often times a -4 determent if highest slot is used at mid-levels onward}

Stats become a lot closer once you remove level bonuses from the equation, making them so much more in battle {a bit like PF1 in my opinion}. Look at the Adjusting Encounters chart . You will find lower level creatures much more of a threat without level, and the 'Summon X' spells lets you place those creatures on the board in your favor. The times I've used this system I found summoned creatures to really change the course of battle and that they need not have been summoned using the casters highest level slot to do so.

But yeah, mathematically it works out. Although there are all sorts of things that are thrown off by the no level scaling mod sadly. The game really doesn't account for it well when it comes to things that improve tiers of success or have major effects tied to tiers of success.

Agreed. Also things which are checked by level bonus becomes a bit unbalanced. {'Summon X' for example}

I like the Ankou personally. The idea of a Fey Assassin is cool, and the lore behind it how it ties into its abilities, such as its attacks being counted as 'Cold Iron' making Fey prey easier to kill, or its innate spells making it easier to follow, and prevent the escape of its target. Its summon ability does these as well while also ensuring it can temporary become a one-monster assassin team, plus its cool regardless. A feared assassin either as an agent of a more powerful being or itself being said powerful being, both which can be used to set up some pretty good storylines and encounters.

Plus its Deception game is so on point and old school that its hidden it as 'Bluff' in its stat block [at least in the PDF Bestiary 2 version, Nethys as the correct name for the skill.]

8) Monk + Shadowdancer archetype for the ultimate shadow boxer.

Awesome thanks, that's what I thought too. Muticlassing spellcasters and what feats cross the barrier can sometimes be somewhat confusing. I just thought to ask so I don't cheat a player in my group whom is thinking of building a high level Sorc/Bard character for a one shot.

If a Hag Bloodline Sorcerer took some MC Bard spellcasting feats, and then took the 'Greater Mental Evolution' what would happen?

1) Would it add one spell to each repertoire per spell level? {Treating each list as a separate repertoire.}

2) Would it add one spell per spell level, but you could choose which side the extra spell would go? {Treating both lists as a general 'Repertoire'.}

3) Would it add one extra spell per level to the Sorcerer Spell Repertoire only? {Treating the feat as only applying to the spell repertoire of the class it came from.}

Personally I'm leaning towards 3, but I have not found {and possibly missed} certain rules which would cover and clarify this.

Unfortunately no. The runes seem to be the exception to this rule. There does not seem to be any rules to upgrade an item and the formula rules seem to support this, treating items of multiple types as their own separate item.

“Items with Multiple Types

If an item has multiple different levels, each type has its own formula, and you need the formula for the specific type of item you want to craft. For example if you have a formula for a type I Bag of Holding but not a type II Bag of holding you must acquire a separate formula to craft a type II Bag of holding.” —Core Rulebook pg 293

To hedge my bets a bit though, I would still wait for confirmation from someone else, as this seems like a thing that may have a rule still buried in the book that I may have missed.

At the end of the day it’s going to come down to preference and opinion how much a NPC gains access to Ancestry feats and cantrips through them, which will then have an impact on the world has a whole.

If 80% of people have a quirk, I mean cantrip, magic would probably become an large part everyday life, being integrated, large or small, into most things (jobs, education, ect.) and magic would become the mundane norm. In a world where perhaps only 1 out of 1000 people gain a Ancestry cantrip, it would be more highly coveted, less understood by the masses, and would not be a necessary or even an excepted part of day to day operations for most people.

You may want to switch this question to the PF1 forum. (This is PF2 forum, different rules, different items, swashbuckler isn’t out on this side of the edition yet)

Deadmanwalking wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

Siro wrote:

Now i’m just thinking of a man taking a shot, sprouting horns, then running around goring people. I’m not sure if I’m ok with it, but I do like it....

Drunken Master is no longer a Monk martial art style.

It is, however, going to be available again in the APG.

Clarifying.

Drunken Master isn't just a Monk martial art style.

....it’s a lifestyle (ok, I’ll go away now :p)

Ventnor wrote:

Occult Sorcerer/Bard could be fun, especially with the Spellbook Feat that bards get. Whole lot of spell slots with some inspiration; you basically become the best occult caster you can be.

In fact, let me sketch out a quick sketch of a Sorcerer/All Bard multiclass build looks like. This is assuming your Sorcerer picked one of the Occult bloodlines, like Aberrant or Hag.

Level 2: Bard Dedication (Polymath Muse)
Level 4: Basic Bard Spellcasting
Level 6: Basic Muse’s Whispers (Esoteric Polymath)
Level 8: Inspirational Performance
Level 10: Occult Breadth
Level 12: Expert Bard Spellcasting
Level 14: Advanced Muse’s Whispers (Versatile Signature)
Level 16: Advanced Muse’s Whispers (Dirge of Doom)
Level 18: Master Bard Spellcasting
Level 20: Advanced Muse’s Whispers (Quickened Casting)

First good job with the challenge. I can see this being a good and fun build even without the archetype limitation.

I think the Counteract rules may help you.

At base, ‘True Seeing’ is going to generally be at Level 6, meaning even on a failure, it’s still going to see through 5th level and lower illusions, and Level 7 and lower on a success. As to how much you want to invest in countering this, I will leave it to you (Specialization is good, overspecialization can lead to diminishing returns at the cost of other areas. You decide how far you need to go for the character you want to play.)

Now i’m just thinking of a man taking a shot, sprouting horns, then running around goring people. I’m not sure if I’m ok with it, but I do like it....

I’m now kinda of wondering how a Main Barbarian and Alchemist multiclass would work out. A raging drinker so to speak. Hmm, three hands may be required.

Hmm, possibly Wizard whom MC’d into Bard. Pick up some support spellcasting to help more round out the list, and maybe go into the Enigma line of feats to double down on a high Int and Bardic Lore. ‘Dirge of Doom’ also helps with the spells hitting among other things.

Cleric whom MC’d into Sorcerer <Divine or Primal> for spellcasting and pick ‘Heal’ as a signature spell for all the heals. Possibly also pick up Champion later for ‘Healing Touch’ so you have a rechargeable heal as well. (The ‘Healbot McHealingson’ build.)

Are you planing to maximize your Charisma so your spells will more likely to hit, or are you planing to have it as more of a dump stat {relying on non-save spells for your repertoire}, which would allow you to invest in your other stats a bit more?

Muticlass Spell Dedications can be rewarding, but it can also takes a bit of levels before it gets rolling. Just based off of the lists a Primal multiclass would provide the most versatility as it and the Occult list don't have a lot of overlap, compared to the other traditions. Doubling up on the Occult could be an interesting line, as the MC spells will be just as powerful DC/Attack Roll wise as your main casting, and could be a bit easier skill wise if you were already planing on going down the 'Occultism' route for other Bard feats.

If your main plan is to go into melee, I'd go down the Champion MC route. One of the requirements is a main Stat for the Bard class. There are a good amount of Bard feats which increase your spell points, which can combo well with 'Healing Touch/Lay on Hands' and staying up on the front lines. Gaining access to a Champions Reactions is also a plus for a class that tends not to use there reaction. And the Occult list have a few spells which can help your somewhat lower defense/melee {'Blur' can be your best friend, and a Summoned/Illusory creature can be your flanking buddy/meat shield, ect. Also Heroism because its really good.}

Yeah, if your going the Monk whom is a back up healer route, Alchemist is most likely your best bet. Your hands would be free most of the time, {heck walk into battle carrying a elixirs, or even two if you say you attack by kicking :p} and monks have good action economy to handle the two actions to draw and drink a elixir {increased movement speed and Flurry of Blows saving them actions} The temp potions can be handed out at the beginning of the day so the members have the ability to heal themselves, and there are some good elixirs beside healing ones that can come into play. 14 Int is not ideal, but is not bad, especially because you don't really need to go beyond that, though having to increase 'Crafting' may be a bit of a burden depending on other skills you may wish to invest into, and the power of the elixirs that can be made may ebb and flow a bit depending on which level your talking about.

A Cleric MC does have spells which can help him kick more behind as well {looking at Heroism}, but its a slow climb. One which can be worth it in the end, and does have some nice trinkets along the way, but its going to be a bit before the spellcasting becomes fully realized.

Side Tangent= A Cloistered Cleric who MC into Monk can have a better save to there Ki spells then a Monk could. The Key spell casting ability for Ki spells are Wisdom, something which is a Key stat for Clerics but not for Monks. In addition {and more importantly} a Monk can only gain 'Master' proficiency in the tradition of there Ki spells {Occult or Divine}. However, the Cloistered Cleric gains 'Legendary' proficiency in the Divine Tradition, and combined with the higher Wis, pushes there DC passed that of a Monks.

Now Currently the only Ki Spell which has a save that a can be obtained through MC is 'Ki Blast', but a Ki based Cleric may be interesting none the less.

Barbarian MC could be good for a Str build. Just make sure you pick up ‘Raging Intimidation’ if you are planing to Demoralize while raging.

I had thought about ‘Intimidating Prowess’ when I originally was trying for a Str build, it would work with the Coerce and Demoralize stuff, but not ‘Dragon Roar’ itself. (Dragon Roar works off Intimidation DC, not Coerce or Demoralize.) Still for a Strength Intimidation build, you could do a lot worse, and would not find anything better.

Note, this is from a newbie when it comes to Monks, with this being only a quick look at the idea to get the ball rolling. Take with more then a grain of salt and the knowledge someone more antiquated with the class will be more helpful.

Ancestry= Twilight Halfling <for Low Light Vision>

Starting Stats=

Str-8 // Dex-18 // Con-12 // Int-10 // Wis-14 // Cha-16

-I know low Strength looks bad given the Dragon Tail attack does not have 'Finesse' but you are not forced to use that attack while in the stance. Basically it would be used for the Stride advantage and is needed for Dragon Roar/ other stats are needed more {Sadly, you can't also have the 'Mountain Stance' along with it}. You could possibly take 2 points off Con for Str if you do not want to have a negative modifier.

-Highest Dex for both attack bonus and more importantly, AC to keep you alive in the earlier levels. Wis for the Will saves and Perception.

-Highest Cha possible because that's the stat your going to be using for Dragon Roar/ other Intimidation stuff.

-Halfling because the stats are good {assuming your ok with dumping Str a bit} Plus 'Halfling Luck' and its line of feats are pretty good. Mostly though, just to picture a 2-foot nothing man roaring at a Ancient Dragon and the Dragon getting scared.

-Other possibilities: Multiclassing into Sorcerer <Divine> for some buff/Heal spells. You can both effectively attack with Flurry of Blows and cast a spell on the same turn. Its also never a bad idea to have the ability to be your own back up healer, especially when your one the front line fighters. Draconic Bloodline instead could also be considered for Claw attacks, and flavor.

Siro wrote:

Even if the difference is only theoretical, if there is a perceived practical problem, then it can lead to an actual practical problem, for example people picking Prepared MC spellcasting for the reason they can swap out the spells, or the perceived ‘balance’ of the game itself. Which is actually the reason why in the previous comment I suggested spontaneous casters have the ability to swap out there cantrips, as it would take care of the theoretical difference, without having a ‘practical’ impact, if cantrip swapping does not indeed have a practical impact.

A perceived problem only becomes an actual problem if the perception is accurate - otherwise a perceived problem leads to a realization that what appeared to be a problem isn't.

In practice, a player that picks an option because they think it is "necessary" when it is not actually necessary is going to learn that through play.

Yes and in our group and from a quick glance around here, at least some people have found the problem perception to be somewhat accurate.I would not say its a major issue, nor would do I think the prepared option then becomes the 'necessary' one, but it is an issue which does pop up to some small degree.

If your experiences have differed, more power to you, the less issues experienced the more fun the game is.

Edit= I think we have narrowed the discussion down to a difference of experiences, in where you have experienced one thing, and I another, something which I believe is a good place to end it on.

I'm going to take a bit of a rest from this discussion for now. I do believe both prepared and spontaneous are roughly equal, each with there own strength and weakness in the way they cast spells, with the exception of cantrips.

There's no good reason to not let the players know what they are getting into, even if their characters won't know.

So if you're in "I need to change a bunch of spells because what I picked are incompatible with the campaign" territory, that's entirely a GM-caused conundrum - not "normal circumstances of fair play."
Again this is a GM-caused circumstance because they haven't given the players the downtime for their characters to adapt what (in practical terms) would be 1 or 2 spells they picked that no longer have benefit.
A GM that wants players' characters to be ill-equipped for their adventures will make that happen regardless of what the rules to the game actually are

It’s all dependant on the style of gameplay. Both DM and players may wish to play a game which the characters are surprised by the challenge, that they are shaped by the story, not shaped for it. There are also possibilities of intertwined campaigns, or even the popular ‘sand box’ style of table top gameplay. Player agency can have both a major impact on the story and change the challenges they may face. A prep caster as a greater ability to adapt there cantrips to these challenges/changes, which a spontaneous caster does not.

Your assuming that being a prepared caster also comes with foreknowledge of your foes for the day while at the same time assuming being a spontaneous caster comes without foreknowledge in even broad enough terms to be able to choose something that "should work most of the time.

I’m not assuming that. I assume both types of casters, if given no other information, will prepare spells for the most broad array of situations or the ‘should work most of the time’ list. Nor do I assume a prepared caster will know every situation ahead of time. However I do assume prepared caster know roughly what they are planning to do for that day, and prepare there cantrips in a way which will broadly apply to that plan, while at the same time making efforts to gain info to help narrow down this list for future preparations. A spontaneous caster does not have this ability in there cantrips.

Your specific examples do show a time when a prepared cast, if the player bothers to do so, can benefit from being able to change their prepared cantrips. You have not demonstrated problems that a) are frequent enough to have a player be worried about them, b) unsolvable by other readily-available means.

<shows how my specific examples could be overcome through mundane means>

Which is to say, as I already did, theoretically swapping cantrips is useful - but it practically never happens

The ability to swap out cantrips to overcome problems should not be understated, as its less then occasional use can still add up, and even one use can still have a major impact. The fact certain problems could also be solved through other means does not diminished this, especially as your group may not possess the mundane means. To counter your example, its a lot like the spell ‘Suggestion’. Most of what that spell can do can also be achieved either through a silver tongue, or the end of a sword, yet casters still have it because its useful in solving certain problems for them and the group.

Most campaigns have a theme and that theme lasts for a fair amount of time, rather than having the elemental damage of choice change day-to-day. Plus, in most campaigns the theme doesn't end up with too many elemental weakness (and I'm meaning that in the broader "using this element is best" sense rather than the "this gets actual bonus damage" sense) coming up - unless it is the specific 'feature' of that campaign.

Depends on the DM, campaign and returning charters. A DM may not let you know ahead of time exactly what type of adventure they are running/creatures you may face/challenges you may encounter. You may also be playing characters from a previous campaign, and the cantrips that were suited to the prior may not work so well in the latter/ there are better options. And there may be campaigns which branch from the original content, either by design, DM fiat, or player involvement. To sum up, you may not know what you are getting into, something which a prepared caster can correct in a day, and a spontaneous caster cannot.

My experience has been that the players concern with these niche situations will pre-select for them, rather than being both caught not realizing they'd benefit from picking a particular cantrip and having a spare day to solve the same issue.

Usually, a player with either not have the niche cantrip for the one time it would have been useful and have no need of it at other times.

You mentioned neither type of caster will most likely not have a niche cantrip when it could be useful, and to a certain degree, this is true. However, I gave two examples of problems which could/needed to be solved without an intimidate need to be solved. Being lost is a problem which needs to be solved but not immediately, 'Know Direction' being used to help this, and will be rendered mute once the party acquires a compass. 'Sigil' can be useful in marking items, but generally a days use of it every once in a while is all that is needed. Regardless, we are still left with the fact in those situations a prepared caster can have those cantrips prepared with the only cost being its one of there prepared cantrips for the day, {wither it is used or not, or if they knew ahead of time they would need it} while a spontaneous will have that spell constantly taking up a spot on there limited repertoire. Retaining is a thing, but it takes time, money, and something which cannot generally be done in the middle of an adventure.

And also their primary class' features so, both practically an conceptually, they don't need more than two cantrips

Something which I had alluded to {but not to your extent] in the next sentence. "This is not a dire situation to MC spontaneous casters as they still have there based class to fall back on, but it is a bit more noticeable." Practically, its better to have the ability to swap out your cantrips then not to have the ability to swap out your cantrips, which leads back to my previous statements of situations where you may wish to swap out your cantrips/no longer useful cantrips taking up your {two} limited repertoire spots. Conceptually {something which can be slightly nebulous], there would be no reason why a spontaneous caster should not be able to swap out spells like there prepared counterparts. Cantrips already have there own set of rules. They don't 'disappear' when cast, an exception to the prepared style of casting, and which mimics a quality of spontaneous style of casting. Why shouldn't spontaneous caster be able to mimic swapping out spells for there cantrips? As you had stated, as casters tends to stick with a set of cantrips anyways, it would not have a major impact on the way the class is played, nor the game in general.

Hammerspace wrote:

Making the spontaneous cantrips strickly inferior compared to prepared cantrips.

Theoretically true, but unlikely to have significant expression in practical play.

Both prepared and spontaneous caster players are more likely to set their cantrips and rarely, if ever, change them and be satisfied with that than they are to feel like there would be benefit to actually change things around - because 5 cantrips is enough to cover your bases.

Generally agreed for spellcasting classes, though there are some somewhat notable exceptions, such as preparing certain cantrips to fight certain foes {elemental weakness and such}, and in situations where a niche cantrip could be used to solve a problem, {preparing 'Know Direction' because it took your party a day of getting lost before anyone figured out no one bought a compass, 'Sigil' on off days to mark your stuff ect.}

However this problem gets a bit more noticeable with MC Spellcasters,whom only have two cantrips to work with, and are less likely to have cantrips to cover there bases, but the prepared MC as the benefit of swaping out spells to the situation they believe they are going to face. This is not a dire situation to MC spontaneous casters as they still have there based class to fall back on, but it is a bit more noticeable.

The Rules for Forced Movement

Generally forced movement does not cause any damage unless specificity stated. Throwing them against a wall would not deal any additional damage though you would still get the damage from Whirlwind Throw based on how far they traveled before they hit the wall.

Going off of Deadmanwalking suggestion, you could go into Performance. Both characters seem to have a bit of a showman streak to them, and flexing off your shirt to show off you muscles would be has much of a Athletics check as it would be a Performance.

Getting Versatile Performance from the Bard could help you be inspiring in a social setting, making friends with fellow bodybuilders and Halfling alchemists alike, inspiring them to greater heights, while your physic strikes fear in those that fight against you. Not really sure where the Impersonate part comes given how straight lace Armstrong is, and this may be seen close to 'cheating' on the Kurgess side. Meh, not everything can always match up perfectly, and I can see some occasions when both these characters would consider it if it was the only option {saving lives, preventing competitors from just giving up before trying because your there participating, ect.}

Hmm, while this may be a grey in terms of RAI, I have not found anything contrary to what you have stated, at least in my quick search anyways. {note: we both could be proven wrong still, muticlassing and spell casting can be a bit complicated at times, so I would still tread carefully.}

Now there may be certain RP concerns, I'm pretty sure some gods may get a bit miffed your taking there carefully prepared spells and cannibalizing them with your Arcane trickery. Nethys would probably be ok with it though, at the very least.

PF2 is a game where you can not ignore your lower level slots/spells, both because you do not have has many of them to work with as you did in PF1, and because they can {partly because of what breithauptclan said about DC's, and because there are some really good lower level spells] put in some work.

The main benefits of both are the Frightened Condition, both a powerful and fleeting effect, which both spells do on roughly the same level against a single target.

Given the main advantage to it is the Frightened Condition, I may just leave it has a LV4 spell, if at all, at least in terms of bosses {which I will be assuming are going to be a bit higher level then you.} The damage is nice, but heightened versions do not improve the damage on a save, {assume the boss will be a bit more likely to make the save} In addition, while there is always a chance the spell could kill a boss outright, the incapacitation part of it makes that outcome extremely unlikely. While the extra damage can be helpful if they make the Fort save against the Crit effect, the main thing is the Frighted 4 Condition {which can be devastating to say the least} and your party is going to have a free round while it is running away, effects which do not improve upon casting casting it at a higher level. {ie, you and your party should be able to kill it pretty easy at that point, with or without higher damage.}

If talking about bosses only, LV4 would most likely be where I would leave it, with a LV3 Fear being able to achieve most of the desired results at a lower spell slot. Phantasmal Killer does have the advantage of range however, which is also something to considered.

To Mr. FedoraFerret. I would like to thank you for the Guide. While there are one or two spells I disagree (Maze’s Versatility for example, as there is nothing preventing you from using it on yourself or a friend in danger as a way to save them/ give the person time to heal/buff, though this does mean a Mazed foe can do the same.), there are many spells you have made me see in a new light (the multiclass lying Rogue in my group is going to have a new toy in Zealous Conviction because of you, when he gets to that level.) I have found your insights interesting, and the guide something to note when thinking of spell selection. Thank you for the effort placed into it and the insights you have given.

Page 88, from the Gamemaster Guide
"As a default, intelligent items have control over all their own magic, meaning an intelligent magic weapon could deny the effects of its fundamental and property runes if it so chose, and intelligent items perform their own activations when they wish. Intelligent items can typically use 3 actions per turn, acting on their partner’s turn. These actions don’t count toward their partner’s 3 actions. They have a reaction if any of their activations requires one."

Marty's Shield
"In addition to good-naturedly attempting to convert you to its religion, the martyr’s shield can use 1 reaction each round that, when raised, it uses to Shield Block to protect an ally adjacent to you, with the effects of the Shield Warden feat. The martyr’s shield uses this reaction whether you would prefer it did so or not."

It has its own reaction, which it will use automatically if the conditions are met {at least that's how I interpret it.}

Well, if its going to be a long fight, and you have a character playing support/making sure everyone stays alive, combining Invisibility and Sanctuary in one go can be pretty good.

Anything targeting them with an attack with need to= 1) Make the save against Sanctuary then 2) Make the flat DC 11 for the target being 'Hidden' and then 3) generally need to roll to overcome the AC. Your buffer/healer will become the '{Nearly} Unhitable Man' meaning they can concentrate keeping everyone else empowered, and alive, without having to worry about there own safety as much, which can increase your odds of surviving and winning in the long run.

Even against AOE, its still useful, as 'Sanctuary' can protect even those not under its effect, as long as the person whom is affected is within the area {a failed save means they waste the action}. Invisibility on top of it can make it difficult for someone to try and avoid including the Sanctuary creature in it, depending on 'Stealth' of course.

I may think of some more later {i have not really played with it to much}. Just one thing to keep in mind, while generally Quickened Casting power comes from the ability to cast two spells in a round, this is born from its true advantage of saving you an action from casting. This means there may be combinations with a QC spell and non-spell actions on top of other two-spell combinations.

If doing it as part of a Quickened Casting combo, I'd would advise going Crushing Despair, as you would not be able to use Black Tentacles along side Fear.

Action Math {Not as much action as it sounds}=

Fear LV3 {1 Action including reduction from QC} + Crushing Despair LV5 {2 Actions} = 3 out of 3 of your actions

Fear LV3 {1 Action including reduction from QC} + Black Tentacles LV5 {3 Actions} = 4 out of 3 of your actions

Even with Quickened Casting, you would not have enough actions per turn to cast both Fear and Black Tentacles.

The DC is based on the highest Level creature you are trying to affect, the DC's being found on Level-Based DC's Chart . If the highest level creature you are trying to affect is Level 6, the DC would be 22 {DC 32 for a crit.} If say an creature you were trying to affect was Level 7, it would go up to a DC 23 {DC 33 for a crit}

Note the part a GM may assign a different DC based on circumstances. For example, if you were to Inspire Heroics by sing a holy hem about a deity, in one of there temples, and the targets were their followers, I would make the check easier. Alternatively, if the targets are under a 'Fascinated' effect that is not centered on you, I would make the DC a bit harder.

It also as the benefit of keeping the items organized versus something like a satchel where the items my get scrambled in travel. A bottle of Healing potion and a bottle of Poison can feel pretty similar when you can’t see, and you would probably want to know which one is where.