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A fair warning to anyone getting on the wrong side of the Firebrands. They got a Charming Scoundrel on page 118 so powerful he can cut through his own stat block.


Oh, I do generally agree, but a lot of others have interpreted it the other way. Which is the reason why I think there should eventually be an official word on it. Also double on leaving it just at that.


There as been some debate on how Unified Theory works, and wither it just applies to spell checks or can apply to any checks. I do believe its intended to only apply to magic, and without any debate I would rule it as such. However there has also been some speculation that it works with any checks involving those skills <for example there is this thread Level 20 Test. makes mention of the Bard making non-magic skill checks because of Arcane Theory, and another forum with speculation you can use it with the feat ' Natural Medicine'.} However nothing official.

If your on one side or another, it is something that should get clarified eventually. Hopefully its in the errata and clarifications we are suppose to get something this month {I believe.).


Oh, and with Feats, you can use your 'Performance' to qualify for any Diplomacy, Deception, or Intimidation feat. However you can only apply 'Performance' when using these feats when it mentions activities covered by Versatile Performance. For example, while you could qualify for both 'Group Impression' and 'Bargain Hunter' using Performance, however you can only use Performance on 'Group Impression' {as its using a skill activity mentioned in Versatile Performance} but not 'Bargain Hunter' {as it does not use one of the Versatile Performance listed activities.)

I would say {and sorry for the cop-out answer} it depends on what you are trying to go for with these feats. If you find a majority of the feats you want can be covered by the Performance skill {or your ok with it being used with a skill that may only be 'Trained' and just using VP to possibly cheat the requirements.) I'd say go for it. If not, it may be a reconsideration of what you want to do, or how your want the build to go and what skills you want to invest in.


Kyrone wrote:
You could instead of bumping Occultism bump Arcana and get the feat Unified Theory, you can continue with Enigma and Polymath for class feats.

Largely agree with this {its easier to increase and get a better bonus to Arcana then it is for Bardic Lore, which can make a huge deal of difference, especially with some of the Enigma Muses feat. Plus its not limited to just Recall Knowledge actions, though remember you have to wait until LV16 before you can get Unified, so it may be something to consider retaining in order to get when you reach that level.) One slight caveat with Unified is it will not cover Society Knowledge checks, along with possibly some very rare Lore that just doesn't fit into any other Recall Knowledge Skills privy.

As far as 'Versatile Performance' I would generally say get Trained in Diplomacy and Deception, as even just trained you would still be generally {assuming you are making Cha your main stat} decent with them, and covers skills activities Performance would not. Getting your Level + Cha Mod + 2 should cover your general needs, if your not relying on them all the time. Often times a skills activities can work together, for example, before trying to 'Make an Impression' on the Duke, you try to 'Gather Information' on him to make that job even easier, and be able to 'Request' of something afterwards, or under the off chance some questions your 'Impersonate' you got a decent chance with 'Lie' to get yourself out of the situation. Intimidation maybe a skill slightly easier to go without because all you gain is 'Coerce' but it can still be useful to have at least trained for it. In general I would not push these skills pass 'Trained' if your going down the 'Performance' route.


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One other advantage which should be pointed out is, its a spell which grows with you {unlike other 'Summon Spells'}. While heightening does give a boost in damage and size, the other stats {AC, Hit, Saves, and technically Bonus damage assuming you are generally increasing your main casting stat) grows with your spell casting, meaning even the lower level stuff can still be of use in battle. {As others have mentioned, take a hit, do pretty respectable damage even if cast at lower levels if you can take advantage of weaknesses, provide flanking ect.) Just remember if they figure out its an illusion, foes its damaged get back some HP.

But the main strength I find is the flexibility, both because the caster can choose what from it will take {Stay Puft Marshmallow Man) and because the caster can keep it up for 10 mins before coming exhausted, and has a really good range to it. There is nearly limitless shenanigans someone can do with it, both in side and outside of battle {Getting chased by the guards, summon a 'Dragon' over the city and suddenly your less interesting. You need a date for the prom, but people find unlikable and repulsive, make a friend that is less judgmental. Need some clout when your Str 8 Wizard enters into a seedy bar/ ally/ knitting circle, have an instant body guard.) Also gets better with certain metamagics, such as ones that conceal the casting {so its easier to use at a moments notice in more social settings} and at higher levels 'Effortless Concentration' so you don't have to stare at it every 6 seconds, freeing you actions up to cast even more Illusory Stay Puff Marshmallow Men.


lemeres wrote:
This is an important question. Bards often find themselves grabbed by irate audiences (mostly because they did not want to become the bard's audience, and they have told him repeatedly to leave).

Don't forget about clingy fans. Something they don't tell you about nat 20 Performance checks is the fans can sometimes like it a little too much. :p


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Also, while more of a mid-levels solution if you are finding it a problem when you get there, is the ‘Blink’ spell. Along with reducing most types of damage by a little, at the end of your turn you teleport a short distance in a random direction, which ‘should’ get you out of most grabs. And if your feeling it, you can also attempt a action to also do the teleport during your turn as well. The slight downside however is not always being in the best position afterwards, as you always teleport at the end of your turn, at random which direction you go. It’s no ‘Freedom of Movement’ but it can work in a pinch.


Day 1= Ohh golly geez, I just got my apprenticeship to learn how to do magic, and to fly around, and to become invisible, and if I try hard enough to eventually become the bestest wizarding Wizard around.

Day 1783= Today another band of goody-too-shoes attempted to storm my lair, so I did my best impression of Thanos throwing the moon at the Avengers, and Meteor Swarmed there back-sides. The half that didn’t die, I processed to kill. So pretty average day.


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Because it as turned a bit into the topic of flexible through MC, I want to give a shout out to the flexibility of the Alchemist MC (something I recently found a new appreciation for.)Being able to create alchemical items, even lower level ones, at the beginning of each day for free (lasts only for the day though) can give you a decent amount of flexibility. You have items that can bestow darkvision, ones that let you understand different written languages, ones that can help you deal with hot or cold environment, ones that help in battle such as giving concealment via the mistfrom elixir (I believe that’s what it’s called), even ones that can help with infiltration. You got decent amount of different options, and generally a decent amount of reagents to do it with, more so at higher levels. And when you don’t have need for anything else, you can make healing items, turning you into a limited but decent healer.

Now I would be remiss if I did not mention you can hand items for your friends to use as well. However there is stuff to also keep in mind before touting it the best thing since sliced bread. Generally you are paying two actions in battle, and while you should have more of these items then a MC spellcaster as spells, those spells will most likely have a bit more bang for the two action buck. Also, like spellcasting MC your going to have to invest in a certain skill (Crafting in this case, but there are also a decent amount of crafting feats that can make your character more flexible, dependant if you have the down time to craft) and your going to have to spend a decent amount of Class feats to keep your advance alchemy level up(3 total to maximize it, including the dedication feat, and 1 more if you want the quick alchemy feat.). Perhaps not the most flashy, but I think it gives a solid amount of stuff for someone that wishes to be flexible.


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Dear Diary:

I tried that 'Transfer Dimension' spell today, but I'm not sure it worked. If it did, I ended up in a Dimension with no discernible difference. If so, it also means I failed my permanent 'Ghost Sounds' experiment in this dimension as well. Apparently there will be no solace form the constant playing of the 'Hamster Dance' that is currently infecting my tower. I'm am beginning to lose hope.

Dear Diary:

It has been 2473 repeats of the Hamster Dance since I last wrote in you. Dee dee doo doo doo, dee da dee doo doo, dee dee doo doo dee da dee doo doo... Sleep has not come easy, as I believe my Hamster familiar is trying to kill me. The more the song plays, the more powerful it becomes. May the Gods pity those whom face Sir Nibbles wrath.

Dear Diary:

I cannot find Sir Nibbles. I can only dee da dee doo doo has left to start his conquest of blood and tyranny. Dee dee doo doo doo, but sleep still does not come, has his forces are still hiding in the tower, waiting for me to doo. Even now I see the things Dee and dooing from the corner of my eye.

Dear Dee Da:

Everything a Mimic, Everything a Mimic, Everything is Dee Da Dee Doo Doo, Everything a Mimic.


Siro wrote:

The other thing is to look at it through the 'Earn Income' activity. A level 1 activity {which I would assume a good majority of the average NPC would be doing to make a living.} pays out 2sp on a success per day.

So a 5gp {or 50sp} bribe would represent about 25 days worth of work for the average Level 1 NPC. {assuming they are skilled enough to make these successes. 5gp represents even more days if you included the occasional failure.) Now, the other thing to consider is how much days of work this represents for the mob members he is attempting to bribe, and the possible risks involved. I'm assuming they are not working for 2sp a day, so this may not even represent a days work to them, and they may refuse if there is a great risk to them. However they would still properly know this is a nice chunk of change to the average person at least, so even if it represents little pay to them, they MAY not feel insulted being offered it at the very least.

Sorry, missed Uchuujin comment, did not mean to repeat. :(


The other thing is to look at it through the 'Earn Income' activity. A level 1 activity {which I would assume a good majority of the average NPC would be doing to make a living.} pays out 2sp on a success per day.

So a 5gp {or 50sp} bribe would represent about 25 days worth of work for the average Level 1 NPC. {assuming they are skilled enough to make these successes. 5gp represents even more days if you included the occasional failure.) Now, the other thing to consider is how much days of work this represents for the mob members he is attempting to bribe, and the possible risks involved. I'm assuming they are not working for 2sp a day, so this may not even represent a days work to them, and they may refuse if there is a great risk to them. However they would still properly know this is a nice chunk of change to the average person at least, so even if it represents little pay to them, they MAY not feel insulted being offered it at the very least.


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Hmm, and also taking a very quick glance, size would also affect certain skill actions. For example Athletics actions of "Grapple', 'Trip" "Shove" and "Disarm" have restrictions on whom you can do it on based on yours and the targets size {unless I am missing a rule.}

Mounts can also be a case when size comes into play as well.


Actually, spinning off of Stealth, it could also play a Role in Cover, and 'Line of Effect' stuff.


Well the Bulk of a Small size creature is generally 3 Bulk, while a Medium creature is 6 Bulk. I can see some {generally niche} situations where this could pop up {dragging an ally for some reason, such as away from a battle, putting allies in a Bag of Holding to transport them via a 'Fly' spell, <remember they got at best 10 mins of air> ect.)


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While it may be situational its also a matter of how much this situation happens. While more Bulk is great, there are also going to be plenty of times I don't want to parade those items around, especially if they can easily be taken, or being able to carry them dependent on a spell that anyone can easily break.


Possibly for different spell traditions to use. Arcane casters can use both Ant Haul and Floating Disk, while Occult is limited to just Disk, and Primal is limited to Haul {with Divine getting neither}.

Floating Disk as the advantage of being able to carry more stuff {5 Bulk vs Ant Haul 3}. However its easier to have items taken from the disk, as its just floating behind you {while Ant Haul you can have the additional items on your person.} Disk is also easier to get rid of, as the only thing someone has to do is ride it.

Edit= If I had just raided a Dragons horde, I would want Floating Disk, because I could carry more coins back with it. When I get to the actual city, I would prefer Ant Haul to carry them, as a floating disk of coins is going to draw attention, sticky fingers, and a kid you know is going to attempt riding on the thing.


mrspaghetti wrote:
Siro wrote:
I was actually looking at that(to be fair if an ‘Unseen Servant’ could do it, but figured the principle could still apply to familiars.). At least according to the potion section (page 562) it’s an interact action either to use it on yourself or a otherwise willing or helpless...

Yeah, I guess it would be legal RAW but try to imagine the awkwardness of someone feeding you a potion while you're doing something else...

EDIT: I figured the caveat regarding using it on another was specifically to force-feed an unconscious character a healing potion. And that only works (logically, if there is logic to be applied to magic) because by the very nature of healing potions, you wouldn't be able to drown someone with one. Try giving an unconscious person a glass of water and you're not helping them, though.

Yeah, it was because of that awkwardness where I was having the initial problem, and made me double check the rules. I’m guessing this is the case of mechanics over from, as having a creature ‘owe’ one of there actions/having creatures acting at the same time, could get complicated. I’m guessing this is a way they could allow a creature to do actions like these without breaking the action economy (as the same amount of actions are being spent) but likewise not interfering with the way they set up the 3 action turn.


Paul Watson wrote:
graystone wrote:
Siro wrote:
I found removing the brain tends to make the subject immune to mental damage, though that comes with its own set of....complications.
It's easier if you start with a subject that has no brain to start with...
But, Brain, where are we going to find that many politicians on such short notice? >narf<

Creating politicians were some of the...complications I was talking about.


mrspaghetti wrote:
Siro wrote:

Not jumping into the intelligence/exploration mode debate. But another use could be to feed you potions/elixirs in combat. I know Alchemists can get a feat which gives them a familiar, and I do remember seeing forums a while back asking for a way to use things like potions and elixirs in one action. {it normally takes two actions for these types of items, one to retrieve and one to actually use it.}. For one action, you could command your familiar to retrieve the item, and then its other action to feed it to you, thus ingesting the item for one of your total actions. Your familiar may need the 'Manual Dexterity' Familiar ability. <need to dig a bit deeper, and 1am is not the time for digging.>

However, I can think of two if's for this. 1) The small one, but would items on you be accessible for your familiar friend/can it reach your mouth? Now familiar's are size 'Tiny;, meaning they don't have the best of reach, but can also occupy the same square as you, and at a weight of 1 Bulk {the general weight of a Tiny creature}, you could arguably be carrying them. 2) To mirror the 'How Intelligent is it?' part of the thread, "how Strong is it?'. Namely how much Bulk can it carry? Similar to how there is no defined Int score for them, there is no defined Str score, and thus no Bulk. Could the Light Bulk of these items be too much for them to carry? Could they be strong enough to be outfitted with small satchels or bandoleers worth of these items?

I think drinking a potion/elixir would require an interact action regardless of whether someone was feeding it to you or you were doing it yourself. The only difference in the first case is that you wouldn't need a free hand to do it.

I was actually looking at that(to be fair if an ‘Unseen Servant’ could do it, but figured the principle could still apply to familiars.). At least according to the potion section (page 562) it’s an interact action either to use it on yourself or a otherwise willing or helpless creature that can not resist. At least for me, this would indicate the person receiving it would not be spending the action. It could cause a bit of an issue feeding potions to a dying ally otherwise, as they would have no actions to ‘drink’ the potion being given them. (Assuming you could do it) Of course I could be missing a rule that counter indicates this, actions can be a bit nebulous.


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I found removing the brain tends to make the subject immune to mental damage, though that comes with its own set of....complications.


Not jumping into the intelligence/exploration mode debate. But another use could be to feed you potions/elixirs in combat. I know Alchemists can get a feat which gives them a familiar, and I do remember seeing forums a while back asking for a way to use things like potions and elixirs in one action. {it normally takes two actions for these types of items, one to retrieve and one to actually use it.}. For one action, you could command your familiar to retrieve the item, and then its other action to feed it to you, thus ingesting the item for one of your total actions. Your familiar may need the 'Manual Dexterity' Familiar ability. <need to dig a bit deeper, and 1am is not the time for digging.>

However, I can think of two if's for this. 1) The small one, but would items on you be accessible for your familiar friend/can it reach your mouth? Now familiar's are size 'Tiny;, meaning they don't have the best of reach, but can also occupy the same square as you, and at a weight of 1 Bulk {the general weight of a Tiny creature}, you could arguably be carrying them. 2) To mirror the 'How Intelligent is it?' part of the thread, "how Strong is it?'. Namely how much Bulk can it carry? Similar to how there is no defined Int score for them, there is no defined Str score, and thus no Bulk. Could the Light Bulk of these items be too much for them to carry? Could they be strong enough to be outfitted with small satchels or bandoleers worth of these items?


Yes, Class feats Levels are the minimum Level, not a max. So if you were to gain a Level 10 class Feat option, you can use it to gain any level 10 or lower class feat. <with exceptions mentioned in the feat itself, and meeting other requirements such as having other specific feats.)


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Actually, I'm not sure you can use Versatile Performance for the Scared to Death checks {although I could, and would love to be wrong in this case.)

'Versatile Performance' says you can use Performance instead of Intimidation for Demoralize checks. However 'Scare to Death' says you make an 'Intimidation' check, not a Demoralize.

Again, I've been know to let something slip past me from time to time that changes the rule, and this could be one of those times.


For multiclass, (along with single class) Augury is also a very good spell for LV2. Being able to foresee the likelihood of a plan before committing to it can be life saving, and it’s usefulness is independent of LV cast or DC. (Just keep in mind, it can be a bit buggy.)


Well, I was giving it some thought. Now I would not say this is the most powerful buff spell, in fact it’s traditionally seen as bad thing. But what about ‘Maze’ ?

Ok, before the pitch forks come out, being trapped inside a Maze is not often considered aMazing (ok now you raise those pitch forks.) But it does have some buff like benefits= 1) it keeps the target safe from danger, as they are trapped by themselves 2) it keeps them hidden from everyone else and 3) the only limit on actions in the maze is trying to escape it. And you can keep up said Maze for about 10 mins (you need to use an action each round to do so). So the person in the maze can do whatever they want, such as healing, self buffing, the Macarena, ect, without having to deal with anything else.

Meh, this is probably a well known use of the spell, I just had not clued into it now. But regardless I think it should be mentioned in the flexibility of it both being a ‘Buff’ and ‘Debuff’. (Perhaps stretching the definition of Buff a bit...)


A Buckler does exist in PF2 as well. It costs 1gp, with a Bulk of Light, and when you use the 'Raise a Shield' action, it increases your AC by one for that round {unlike other shields. it keeps your hand free, though if you are holding either a weapon or a item with a Bulk higher then Light in the same 'hand' as the buckler, you cannot use the Raise a Shield action with it.)

<as a side note, the AC for using both a shield and the 'Shield' cantrip do not stack, so you are only going to get the better of the two.>

The 'Shield' cantrip gives you +1 AC as well, without restrictions on the hand, and gives you the Shield Block reaction for it to boot {as a reaction to taking physical damage, you place your shield in the way, decreasing the damage by the amount of its hardness, in this case at LV1, 5 damage.) However, once you do use the reaction, you cannot use the spell against for 10 mins, so having a Buckler as a spare when you do need to use the reaction can be helpful.

As far as just plain increasing AC at level 1, not much. A Wooden or Steel Shield would give you +2 AC instead when raised, but as a Bulk of 1, and you might run into weight issues with only 8 Str. Unfortunately, one of the bigger weakness of a Divine Sorcerer is its lack of Armor Prof, along with lacking spells such as 'Mage Armor' that improve AC, with not many options at level 1. The best I can come up with at level 1 is the aforementioned Sanctuary spell {breaks when the target commits an hostile action, but any creature attempting a attack against the target must make a Will save, which on a failure, the creature wastes the action, and cannot try to attack the target again that round.) and Bane {any creature in the Aura which fails its saving throw takes a -1 to its attack rolls.). Fear can also work, but its temporary, and Demoralize through the Intimidation skill can also serve to temporarily give a pen to a creatures attack roll {however the target is then immune to it for 10 mins.)

As far as equipment, pick up a simple weapon that either is ranged or have the finesse trait, so you can use your Dex to hit, instead of Str. Even though you will not be the most effective with it, and I think you will be generally spending your '3rd' action each round on Shields {most spells cost two out of your three actions per turn} its still nice to have just encase. Picking up the Sorcerer kit {which also has a Dagger if you need a weapon} can serve for your basic travel needs. Of course make sure you pick up a Healer’s tools, every activity in the Medicine skill, with the exception of Recall Knowledge, needs them. The rest of the gear is preference, innovation, and what you think you may need, go look at the Adventuring Gear in the PDR or ideas. Also, its not a bad thing to have a couple of coins left over, this way, when you know you need something, you will have the funds to buy it. {its better to have it an not need it, but sometimes the thing you need is cash :p )

Anyways, sorry for the long comment. I do hope it helped.


Oh I agree Demoralize did need a nerf from the playtest. Even without combining it with something else, the fact it was always (barring immunities) a excellent choice for a spare action, one of which did not get in the way of most things (did not affect MAP, and most spells leave you with a spare action, and opening up with it would help both of these.), made it extremely powerful. I just really liked spamming it in the playtest, and while I agree the change was justified (if I could use it effectively, I’m scared to think what someone actually good at the game could have done with it), I can still grumble :) .


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graystone wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Dirge of Doom with lingering Performance even better
I think dirge of doom is the best cantrip. However, it’s a debuff, not a buff.
I tend to bypass Demoralize because you're only casting 1 Composition Cantrip most times, unless you Harmonize but that's your whole round. You can instead Demoralize and use a Composition Cantrip and have another action free or cast a normal buff spell too. Sure it's only 1 foe at a time but it's 1 foe frightened plus your other buff. [it's a double whammy for the foe as it gets debuffed and the party gets a buff]

*Looks at changes to Demoralize from playtest and grumbles*

-not a comment against Graystone strategy the double whammy can be devastating when the party focuses on the frightened creature. I just miss my spamable Demoralize. :(


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If you are playing an Angelic Sorcerer, your bloodline already gives you the ‘Heal’ spell at level 1 automatically, which would be a good choice for your signature spell for your Lv1. Remember as an Angelic Sorcerer, the spells you get from the divine list. At LV4 you can also get the Divine Evolution class feat to gain an additional ‘Heal’ spell at you highest level. Also, remember your Bloodline gives you the ‘Angelic Halo’ focus power, which increases the amount you heal with ‘Heal’ spells when activated.

For outside of combat (and partly inside as well) if you either want more healing, while saving spell slots, you can go with the Champion multiclass at LV2 (which would also gain you Armor prof, which you can use to increase your AC) and at LV4 get Healing Touch, to gain the ‘Lay on Hands’ focus power. (Recovering focus points for a Sorcerer is a bit easier task then most other classes, so outside of battle, it just becomes a question of if you have the time to heal everyone back up to full using Layon Hands)

The one caveat to this is if you want/need to heal things other than HP (poison and diseases). On the Divine spell list, there are spells which help cure these conditions, but they don’t come up often enough (in general campaigns) and somewhat dependant on the level they are cast to use your spell repertoire on. Medicine does help with that (and Healing outside of battle if you want to save spell slots, but do not want to use class feats on multiclassing, or would mess with your RP.). But I would not be switching over my stats for it, just remember to give the occasional love to Wis for your stat increases.

As far as build, at least for spells, the Divine as more support then offence (unless you know your up against something evil). As for LV1, if your planing on being on Heal/ Buff (Bless) most of the time, you can pick up the Sanctuary spell for added protection. Through you Gnome ancestry you can also pick up an offensive cantrip as well. The Fey-Touched Heritage gives you a Innate Primal cantrip which you can swap once per day, and the First World Magic ancestry feat gives you another. (This one is set). For Debuffing, Fear is a good one, and Bane can be alright.


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Applied_People wrote:
Siro wrote:
Don’t forget about Longstrider.
Isn't Longstrider a self-only buff? OP seems to be looking for buffs to hand out.

Was written before I had noticed OP clarification on his initial comment. {ie comment was based on the original post.}


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That's dependent on the situation. The outcome at level 10 isn't assured, its just a matter of can the Bard using the tricks it has at there dispose avoid enough damage to chip away a 'win'. The Barbarian may be slightly straight forward, but it also means they are more specialized it there bread and butter {the ability to dish out damage, which the bard can't last long against in a straight up sword fight) and don't think they don't have a few tricks of there own that can put the bard in a rough spot {ie my original post on Athletics and Grapples for example.) If the fight becomes a game of avoid and wear down, the odds go into the Bards favor. If the fight turns into a game of whack-a-mole, the odds go in favor of the Barbarian. Its just a matter of who can choose the game.

At level 15 [at least in my small opinion} the goal for each side stays relatively the same. However, the higher level you go the more variables are going to be on both sides. You are going to have more spell slots and more spells to use. The Barbarian is going to have more deadlier rages, and more they can do with it. And that does not included things such as feats {class, general, ancestry, skill} skills themselves, equipment, ect. {which even at level 10 can have a major impact. Heck even at LV5.)

That is also kind of the thing with PF2. Classes stay pretty constant in 'power' to one another, and are generally {note I said generally, in a very broad sense, and I will be dealing with them in a broad sense) close to each other. Barbarians are really good a dishing out damage at a fast click, and have the HP to stand up to punishment. Bards have the knack for 'buffs' and 'debuffs' and can hack certain skills to be used for other things. Barbarians dislike things getting in the way of being able to hit things, and often likes to party with a person that can empower him past those obstacles, while also weakening his foes so he can break them easier. The Bard tends to need a bit of time to 'warm up' in casting those buff and debuff spells, and so tends to like to party with people whom can take advantage of it right away, and whom can then take the focus off of him as he prepares everything.


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Depends. Mirror image initial miss chance to hit is higher then Invisibility, as when you have all images up, you would only have a 1 out of 4 chances to being hit, {with non-area of effects}. Even when your down to one, its still a 1 out of 2 chance, same odds as Invisibility. Plus its a LV2 spell {assuming your comparing it to a LV4 Invisibility because you want to attack}

However, being Invisible does have the advantage of making things flat-footed against your attacks, and allows you to use sneak tactics. The main advantage of Invisibility over Mirror Image, for the fight, is you can generally set it and forget it. Mirror Image can be destroyed in a round of combat {if the attack would be a critical hit, you would get hit and an image would get destroyed. Even if the attack would naturally miss, because it does not met your AC, as long as its not a critical miss, an image would still be hit and destroyed, along with an image getting destroyed when it takes an attack for you ) This could mean you would need to cast Mirror Image multiple times in the fight, taking actions away from you, and spell slots.

Also, forgot to mention, it may be a good idea to have Soothe. While you may have tricks to reduce the chances of the Barbarian hitting you, when they do, its still going to hit like a truck, and for an 8HP class, its going to sting a bit more. {assuming of course you tactics of choice gives you the odd round to repair the damage from the odd hit.)


Captain Morgan wrote:
He's also probably got that breath weapon... if he knows your square he can always use that.

The Barbarian my not even need to know what square, just a general area depending on the type of breath weapon. If the Bard is using the tactic of a two action spell, followed by Sneak action, assuming no other buffs, and an average sneak speed of 12.5 feet (half of 25 feet) it would be fairly simple to include any area the Bard could be in with one of the cone breath weapons. ( or at least most of it, not to good with area math) That would be an average of 35 damage on a failed save.

However, and forgive me if I am wrong as I am a bit confused with the activation requirements, but can it only be used once per rage? (Assuming the line about it decreasing in power is because a Barbarian could rage multiply times in an hour, and the requirement line ‘You haven’t used this ability since you last Raged’.)


Keep in mind, 'Invisibility' and other such problematic spells/abilities should be somewhat known to the Barbarian by LV10. The question becomes how much access they have to counter these problems, how effective these are, and if they would bother preparing it. Against Invisibility, Barbarians most likely would not have access to spells such as 'Glitterdust' 'Faerie Fire' or 'See Invisibility' {though it is very possible} but any character for a couple of copper would have access to a bag of flour. Not an ideal solution, {still need to hit with the flour, a GM may rule the creature is no longer hidden, but still concealed, and the same GM may also rule the creature can spend actions shaking it off.) but it is a cheap solution that does not cost a lot of resources.

A large part of the battle is going to be how smart the brute is.


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Even if the Bard is sniffed out, they would still have the hidden condition (In regards to a invisibility.) This would mean the Barbarian (barring any other effects) would be flat-footed against the Bards attack, but more importantly, even though they may be able to target the ‘square’ the Bards in (something made more difficult by fly) they would still need to make a flat DC 11 in order to have a chance to hit. In other words, the Barbarian (again barring any other abilities) should auto-miss half of there attacks.

The Bard (as long as they have an action left after the thing that gave away there location) could use an action to Stealth, possibly making the Barbarian to lose the ‘Square’, and allow the Bard to possibly run out the clock on rage.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
citricking wrote:
Pretty sure the barbarian is expected to win. By a quite a bit probably.
Certainly in anything like a straight fight she probably should. If the can get airborne high enough though they can potentially use spells to wear the barbarian down. I'd bet on a bard winning a ranged fight, providing he's got spells that can hit outside of sudden leap range.

LV4 Invisibility would combine nicely with Fly. Also, does the Bard have access to Calm Emotions Spell at LV5 (ideally). If the Barbarian gets the failure effect while raging, the Bard can just sit there and self-buff, waiting for the suppressed rage to run out.

Do keep in mind that if the Barbarian is good in Athletics, they may also try a grapple, which on critical success inflicts the restrained condition, shutting down most of your ability to cast spells. Even if they only get a success, if they took the ‘Attack of Opportunity’ feat, casting spells would be a risky deal.

Winning Initiative seems to be very important to say the least.


The Aeon Stone, while I like the flavour, may be a bit to powerful, namely the reaction and damage reduction. Comparing it to shields for a sec the stone would have to many advantages. It does not require it to be raised, nor does it require a ‘Shield Block’ feat in order to use the reaction. The stone can also be used without restricting your hands. It can also be used to block all damage except mental, unlike a shield that can only block physical attacks. And, unlike a shield, which could get damaged or destroyed when using it to block damage, the stone would be perfectly fine. This would mean any character, especially those whom do not use reactions that often, could turn this into a ‘Negate 5 or more damage each turn without consequence.’

As I said, I like the flavour of it, which includes the reaction, the main sticking point is how spamable it is. Perhaps limiting the reaction to once per 10mins instead of once per round, so it could still be used every battle (I’m assuming the item is intended for Armor less characters, whom are trying to avoid damage) but not so spamable/ useable by everyone.


I like both how you gave good context to your reasoning, and put in a section on problem solving spells. Good work, very helpful.


Which makes me think, if you got someone with a good enough craft to make somewhat realistic statues, and some time, you could make 'monsters' in the box. Throw the box and hope the statue buys you a turn {and some cover}, or if the foe is somewhat cowardly, cause them to flee.

I'm also wondering if its possible to shrink an item and palming it onto someone else. As long as it has room to grow when it is dismissed, and not used in a way that would damage the person, to avoid the non-attacking clause, the creature would still need to deal with Bulk and Encumbrance of the new item on them.{hmm, borderline if it would still be considered an attack then...}

Also, I can see this being used to sink ships. Shrink a whole lot of items, get on board the ship, and to the lower decks. Then just start unshrinking all the junk you brought on to one side of the ship to make it off-balanced. {and subsequently, have an escape plan.}.


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"forever until there is enough space" makes me picture a Gnome toy maker, making the most intense jack-in-the-box ever.


Yeah, summoning as of right now is fairly weak. However I believe they were intentionally designed to be at the level where they could 'function' if casted at the highest level. {with lower level versions acting as thin obstacles or flanking buddies.) To be able to do something, just not be really effective at it, unless summoned in the right situation for it. {where it gets better, but still made to not steal the show.)

This is because its balancing against two things. 1= It gives an additional action for the player turn, has minus the concentrate action, the player will have two actions for themselves, and two for the summon. Being able to increase your actions for a turn, even in a limited way through your summons, should be good. And 2= Summon spells no longer list what specific creature you can summon with it, instead allowing you to summon a host of creatures limited by type and level. This means the spell will have more variety {eventually, when we get more bestiaries see below}, meaning you will more likely able to summon something that can meet the needs of the situation. For example if you run into a group of enemies that you know have relatively low Ref saves for its level, you know a Summoned Dragon and its Breath attack will put in more work that what it normally does.

However, as of right now, with only one bestiary to summon things from, you don't have that variety. Most Summon Spells generally only can summon one maybe two things at the higher level versions, and there are some levels when they don't summon anything at all. For me at least, this is the main reason why it is weak, as it lives and dies by the summoners ability to be able to read the situation, and be able to summon things that will fit into that situation. With a lack of things to summon, however, this will not happen a lot of the time. Which also means the other strength of the spell, the additional action per turn, as you are paying one of your actions, for two actions which will general not be effective. Now, this does not mean it will become the most powerful when we do get more things to summon {again, there designed to not steal the show form other PCs, or become the instant win button even if summoned in the right situation, both of which we slight problems in PF1). However, I do not think we have seen these spells are fully capability yet. Unless RPing a summoner, generally avoid for now, but keep an eye on it.


Polymorph would most likely be the best bet. A Bard (which would be very much weaker than a Polymorph) could possibly go item less, basically spending combat casting compositions Cantrips, (Inspire Courage, Inspire Defence, Dirge of Doom, Triple Time ) and utilizing feats such as Harmonize (and classing into Sorcerer for there refocus) to help keep multiple ones up at a time. You can be a mini heal bot if you can pick up Soothing Ballad. To round out, you may want to take some knowledge skills/ class feats, that affect knowledge. You are basically the support.

Also, depending on your definition of not expanding resources, you could pick up Mage Armor, giving you at least some protection without items. It does use a slot, but it lasts until your next daily preparations, when you would regain it. (ie, your not using the resource pre say, you are just turning it into something else.)

Of course, without question there are some major weaknesses, making the Polymorph path ultimately superior. If your planning to not use non-cantrip spells, your damage output will be next to zero, and your going to need friends to help with that, and in general. While Composition are generally independent of items, the Feats affecting them are often dependant on Skill checks which are affected by them, and without other spells, that’s going to be how you keep buffs and debuffs up. Ditto for knowledge, as, while you can make knowledge checks all day long, you would like some item bonus help. Basically, while they can both be useable, as long as you invest in pumping those number whenever you can, but don’t be surprised when it just does not work out.


"Your Zombie Mama's so ugly, your Zombie papa said she should have been cremated."


I’ll probably allow access to the Resurrection ritual, as I will most rituals. However, like most others rituals, while it’s existence will generally be known to anyone whom is ‘in the business’, how to actually perform it will be a guarded secret of major organizations, and powerful people. So learning it will be a bit more complicated then just stopping off at ye old ritual shop, having to get involved with said organization, researching a lost civilization whom was famous for its Resurrections and finding that cities remains, possible as a reward for defeating a group of brazen insurgents (who’s confondante was fueled by the knowledge they could be brought back to life) etc. In other words they need to do stuff to earn it, but they will have different avenues in which they can.

As far as wether it will always work for PC, I’m waffling back and forth. It will be known in general that Resurrection is somewhat of a tricky process, and while there will be famous examples of it working, there will be examples of it not, and even cases where it called somethingg evil back instead (like the crit failure effects). As far as PC, I will say it generally works, as they would probably went through enough effort to gain it (to gain access to the ritual, acquire the Diamonds, which for reviving higher level PC may need a mini quest in it of itself, and gaining enough people of a high enough level to help you perform it.) However, I may add a caveat that while it should work the 1st couple of times to bring you back to life, after that there may be a cumulative chance it does not. (The soul starts to wear, and the bonds to its mortal coil fray, even with the use of the Ritual.) Basically to act as a way that if the party can easily meet the requirements for the ritual (ie death becomes more of a inconvenience then anything else) death still has a meaning if you engage with it to often.


lordcirth wrote:
Siro wrote:
Atalius wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Intimidating Prowess and Battle Cry.

Frightened reduces Saving Throws.

Might want to 18 ST so that at 10th level you have 20 ST and that second +1 kicks in?

Or if you are willing to wait until 12th level you can MCD Sorcerer?

Or do both?

Don't think it's possible to start with 18 STR?

You can, but it involves using the ‘Optional Flaw’ mechanic during character creation. This is where you voluntarily take additional Flaw in two separate ability scores (can be the same score if ancestry gives you a boost to it, but can not be applied to a score which already as a ancestry flaw) to increase one other score (can be a score already boosted by ancestry) during the ancestry part of the character creation process.

A 18 Str Cleric would be possible at LV1, by gaining two ancestry boosts to Str, using the optional Flaw feature, at the cost of lowering generally two other scores.

You can never get a 14 in anything at the Ancestry stage. You can only put the extra boost from voluntary flaws in a stat you boosted if it's also your ancestry flaw.

Yes you are right on that. (That rule is riddled with exceptions.) Thanks for the quick correct.


Atalius wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Intimidating Prowess and Battle Cry.

Frightened reduces Saving Throws.

Might want to 18 ST so that at 10th level you have 20 ST and that second +1 kicks in?

Or if you are willing to wait until 12th level you can MCD Sorcerer?

Or do both?

Don't think it's possible to start with 18 STR?

You can, but it involves using the ‘Optional Flaw’ mechanic during character creation. This is where you voluntarily take additional Flaw in two separate ability scores (can be the same score if ancestry gives you a boost to it, but can not be applied to a score which already as a ancestry flaw) to increase one other score (can be a score already boosted by ancestry) during the ancestry part of the character creation process.

A 18 Str Cleric would be possible at LV1, by gaining two ancestry boosts to Str, using the optional Flaw feature, at the cost of lowering generally two other scores.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Tender Tendrils wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Handholding.
If I could summon an Unseen Servant in real life, I would probably use it for this purpose on a daily basis.
My dream is to stumble upon a 1/day wand of Unseen Servant so we can hold hands and watch Judge Judy. It'd never judge me :<

Yes, but it would constantly want your attention, which over time becomes very fatiguing, and will up and disappear if you stop. Textbook definition of a needy servant :p


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I had a thought another thought with the Zombie. What if the Rogue points to the Zombie and starts dancing to 'Thriller'. Mindless or not, that Zombie should instinctively know the fresh flesh is= 1) co-opting there cultural rights and traditions 2) making light of there heritage, and the strives and contributions they have made both for zombie-kind and the world as a whole 3) and on a personal note, they know they are getting 'Served' and they must response in kind.

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