Not seeing the merit of warpriest.


Advice

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I'm with Unicore.
For me, a low Wisdom Warpriest is a multiclassed Warrior/Healbot. The only spell you will consistently cast during fights is Heal. And your martial abilities are low, without all the mobility/control/range/debuff other martials have. So you'll very often end up unable to fight (because flying is not enough when the dragon flies at 120ft. and you at 25...).

With high Wisdom, the Warpriest has a crazy versatility. You have tons of AoE spells in the Divine spell list, which is clearly a big advantage to most martials. You have Harm to nova bosses (with Harm Harm Strike, you will outdamage everyone in the party). Being able to remove conditions is always a good thing, as poison's a killer on a low Fortitude character. You have Searing Light for Fiends and Undeads. And the monsters won't play hit and run with you, they will have to face you. So, instead of losing actions to get to the monster, you can get the monster coming to you.


Midnightoker wrote:
...but somehow we’re only talking about scenarios where WP is in a party with no other healing. That’s a party composition issue, not a WP issue and neither doctrine works in every single party composition.

And which is why you should not make characters individually but as a group. However even then you are not granted to have back-up on every possible position, e.g. healer / counteracter. For example our current group looks like this:

* Dwarven sword & board fighter (main tank & single target melee damage dealer)
* Human two-handed weapon and bow ranger (off-tank & single target melee and ranged damage dealer)
* Gnome universalist wizard (ranged single target and ranged AoE damage dealer & debuffer & utility)
* Human warpriest (off-tank & main healer & buffer & debuffer & opportunist melee or spell damage dealer)

Note that none of the first 3 has (natural) access to any heals spells, focus heals and/or chose to pick up the medicine skill (the ranger is likely to choose the Natural Medicine feat soon though), which leaves my WP as our lone source of healing. So I would not count the "no other heals" scenario as especially rare, especially for smaller groups.

Also note that in our case this is more or less by design because as we discussed the future party composition I opted to play the dedicated healer of the group. I freely admit that this set-up may not be the best or ideal when it comes to healing & counteracting from multiple sources, however I can assure you that my group would surely "crucify" me if I went down the "offensive" road while neglecting my spell and healing powers.

Please do not take this example for more than it is, i.e. an example of an actual party currently playing the AoA AP. However and as @Unicore already stated if we were to include an offensive warpriest into one of our groups we would probably also include a cloistered cleric or divine sorcerer (if only to decouple responsibilities and action economy).


Ubertron_X wrote:
Garretmander wrote:
FlashRebel wrote:
True Strike and Enlarge aren't even on the divine spell list. Where do you get them from?
Gorum grants both. Iomedae only grants true strike though.

I think this might have been Errata'ed...

** spoiler omitted **

It was in the first errata document yes. Although I wouldn't trust AoN at this point for accuracy (even though they were this time), there have been a number of misentries or mixed up info on the site.


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I guess my issue is that we're using arguments related to party composition for why a WP is going to struggle.

That's like arguing a muscle car is an awful choice because it can't go off-roading like an SUV.

Any class is bad in the wrong comp, and CC doesn't work in every comp.

Quote:
I would not count the "no other heals" scenario as especially rare, especially for smaller groups.

I mean okay, but WP isn't any less good at casting Heal than a CC. Wisdom has absolutely no bearing on a Cleric's ability to cast Heal.

Healing != All purpose hospital of Golarion.

And the issues with removing conditions is rather trivial until you reach extreme late game.

If you want to measure total levels of effective play, even by the metrics of the dissenters, the WP still has more "valuable" levels than a CC even if they specialize STR. I realize the game is meant to be played all the way through 20th level now, but that doesn't mean that suddenly levels 15+ are more important than the first 10.

Now in relation to conditions, even in the comp you provided, the Wizard can offer both debuffs and potential counteracts with Dispel Magic.


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Unicore wrote:

I know dispelling monsters are not common at lower levels, but being level 15 with a 19 DC means you are in a lot of trouble against higher level demons and other outsiders that can dispel at Will. A Boar Demon, lvl 14, will have a spell DC of 34. That means they will dispel everything but your 8th level spells on a 5 plus. They also fly, meaning your character may never be able to get to them.

Medicine checks to remove conditions is not something happening in combat either so that would be disconcerting to me, but perhaps if there was a dedicated abjuation wizard in the party, that was good with the dispels and the banishments, your party might be ok. Also this character has deliberately dumped wisdom meaning that they are probably more likely to want to be legendary at athletics than medicine by lvl 15, but even if they are, they are only even with the save DCs of monsters a level lower than them.

I just think it is important to remember that one of the biggest advantages a caster has over a martial is versatility, and a lot of that is lost trying to focus on using casting in PF 2 to out martial a martial. Which is a little different than PF1, where casting could pretty much cover everything without losing much versatility because of number of spell slots, scaling of low level spells and the action economy boon of being able to cast most buff spells before combat and have them last for more than a minute.

In PF2, those buffs usually have to come out in combat which makes dispelling them more manageable on a 1 for 1 casting ratio.

As long as the rest of the party is comfortable looking at your character as a melee tank and not a traditional cleric it could be fun, but your party probably needs another cleric or divine sorcerer in it, or at least an abjuration competent wizard. As well as someone who can put the hurt on at range. Those are a lot of roles to be shutting yourself out of by tanking your casting stat.

Admittedly, my group hasn't gotten around to high level play in PF2 yet, but do you find in combat condition removal and dispelling to be so necessary that any party without a full divine caster will struggle? If so, that's worrying news to me.


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I suppose also, in a party with a Warpriest who is the only person who could remove conditions, etc., isn't it reasonable to rely a bit more on scrolls and potions? And I guess I just generally don't see the condition removal spells as things that need to be in slots.

That's actually a reason why I think it was a mistake to remove the whole thing in 1e where Clerics/Wizards could fill in an empty spell slot as the day progressed. In a lot of ways that made the Divine list a lot more interesting, and it made the utility spells super useful as long as you had 15 minutes to sit down and prepare the slot.


Garretmander wrote:
Admittedly, my group hasn't gotten around to high level play in PF2 yet, but do you find in combat condition removal and dispelling to be so necessary that any party without a full divine caster will struggle? If so, that's worrying news to me.

I haven't gotten there yet either, but it was pretty essential in PF1, or at least the ability to prevent conditions form being applied was. The big difference in PF2 is that the condition prevention spells require heightening to be effective, and don't offer nearly the same level of immunity that they did before, which should mean that it matters even more. Big boss monsters with control abilities are still going to be trouble for the Cloistered Cleric with maxed out wisdom, but equal level opponents will present big trouble to a party with no condition removal counteract abilities, especially because you are likely to run into 2 or more of them. For example, a melee focused 15th level party counting on the cleric to cast airwalk to combat flying creatures is in big trouble against 2 14th level Boar Demons.

Yes other measures can and should cover deficiencies, but it is also pretty easy for parties to forget how easily their counter measures can be countered with a high level dispel magic, especially when cast with no umph behind the spell DC or attack roll. Looking at the DPR of what a buffed Warpriest can do in multiple rounds of melee against an enemy is a dangerous metric for measuring viability of a class who's role is often been great general problem solver/get the party out of trouble. Healing is a part of that expanded role, but PF2 has tied general utility to spell casting ability and spell level far more than PF1 ever did.


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Unicore wrote:

I haven't gotten there yet either, but it was pretty essential in PF1, or at least the ability to prevent conditions form being applied was. The big difference in PF2 is that the condition prevention spells require heightening to be effective, and don't offer nearly the same level of immunity that they did before, which should mean that it matters even more. Big boss monsters with control abilities are still going to be trouble for the Cloistered Cleric with maxed out wisdom, but equal level opponents will present big trouble to a party with no condition removal counteract abilities, especially because you are likely to run into 2 or more of them. For example, a melee focused 15th level party counting on the cleric to cast airwalk to combat flying creatures is in big trouble against 2 14th level Boar Demons.

And a CC against a high gap-closing grapple based enemy is going to be in trouble. The WP is going to fair much better in a Swallowed Whole situation, do we call the CC awful now because it's got vulnerabilities?

I am not going to lie, for someone that's admitted to not even experiencing 15th+ play, you're certainly making a lot of assumptions about what it's going to be like and about how "grand" these vulnerabilities are.

Why are they "in trouble" because of 14th level Boar Demons?

Nalfeshnee can fly, they also have +1 saves against spells (already a demerit against a CC casting against them), and they have Grab abilities with a +28 Athletics. Are we expecting the CC to fair well against this creature and a WP to just wallow in misery?

I think at this point, if these are the arguments, I'm pretty sure all of these "the sky is falling!" arguments of woe on the WP are just opinionated conjecture.


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Midnightoker wrote:
I think at this point, if these are the arguments, I'm pretty sure all of these "the sky is falling!" arguments of woe on the WP are just opinionated conjecture.

All this being said, I would still recommend a minimum 14 starting WIS on a warpriest. As nice as charisma con and a bit of DeX are, that 14 WIS seems just as important.


Midnightoker wrote:

Why are they "in trouble" because of 14th level Boar Demons?

Nalfeshnee can fly, they also have +1 saves against spells (already a demerit against a CC casting against them), and they have Grab abilities with a +28 Athletics. Are we expecting the CC to fair well against this creature and a WP to just wallow in misery?

I think at this point, if these are the arguments, I'm pretty sure all of these "the sky is falling!" arguments of woe on the WP are just opinionated conjecture.

A Warpriest can't do anything against a Nalfeshnee. He will never get to melee range. So, it will be a healbot. That's the issue of the Warpriest without Wisdom, you end up being a healbot as soon as the fight is not extremely simple.

A high Wisdom Cleric on the other hand will cast Searing Light for crazy damage + good weakness or Divine Wrath if he can get the 2 Nalfeshnees in the area for average damage + good weakness. So, the Nalfeshnees will have to deal with him as he is clearly killing them quickly.


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SuperBidi wrote:

A Warpriest can't do anything against a Nalfeshnee. He will never get to melee range. So, it will be a healbot. That's the issue of the Warpriest without Wisdom, you end up being a healbot as soon as the fight is not extremely simple.

A high Wisdom Cleric on the other hand will cast Searing Light for crazy damage + good weakness or Divine Wrath if he can get the 2 Nalfeshnees in the area for average damage + good weakness. So, the Nalfeshnees will have to deal with him as he is clearly killing them quickly.

So to be clear the Nalfeshnee, who does it's primary damage in melee range and has sole damage from Divine Wrath outside its reach, is going to be staying far away from the Cleric, thus allowing the advantageous range focused CC the ability to use Searing Light.

That about right? The grapple and theft focused demon is going to never be in melee range or attempt to grapple the full spellcaster who's focused on non-melee combat...

This is white room nonsense.


Midnightoker wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

A Warpriest can't do anything against a Nalfeshnee. He will never get to melee range. So, it will be a healbot. That's the issue of the Warpriest without Wisdom, you end up being a healbot as soon as the fight is not extremely simple.

A high Wisdom Cleric on the other hand will cast Searing Light for crazy damage + good weakness or Divine Wrath if he can get the 2 Nalfeshnees in the area for average damage + good weakness. So, the Nalfeshnees will have to deal with him as he is clearly killing them quickly.

So to be clear the Nalfeshnee, who does it's primary damage in melee range and has sole damage from Divine Wrath outside its reach, is going to be staying far away from the Cleric, thus allowing the advantageous range focused CC the ability to use Searing Light.

That about right? The grapple and theft focused demon is going to never be in melee range or attempt to grapple the full spellcaster who's focused on non-melee combat...

This is white room nonsense.

No, the Nalfeshnees will be at melee range. It doesn't change the fact that the Warpriest can't get to melee as the Nalfeshene has 15 ft. of reach.

So, the Warpriest has to cast Air Walk and get next to the Nalfeshnee. The Nalfeshnee attacks and flies away (you don't have the choice). The Warpriest runs after the Nalfeshnee. Maybe makes one attack if the Nalfeshnee did only one move. The Nalfeshnee comes back and attack twice on the casters. The Warpriest has to come back again. If the Warpriest, by any chance, starts dealing damage, the Nalfeshnee just needs to dispell his Air Walk or they can gang up on him as he's alone running after them. But the Warpriest doesn't have infinite Air Walks. And anyway, considering its sub par efficiency, maybe at some point the Warpriest will start casting Heal, because it's what he does the best.


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Rofl any time someone has to dictate how both sides of a chessboard get played to show an inevitable checkmate I just laugh.

You must have run this combat a billion times! You’ve got it down to exact science!


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SuperBidi wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

A Warpriest can't do anything against a Nalfeshnee. He will never get to melee range. So, it will be a healbot. That's the issue of the Warpriest without Wisdom, you end up being a healbot as soon as the fight is not extremely simple.

A high Wisdom Cleric on the other hand will cast Searing Light for crazy damage + good weakness or Divine Wrath if he can get the 2 Nalfeshnees in the area for average damage + good weakness. So, the Nalfeshnees will have to deal with him as he is clearly killing them quickly.

So to be clear the Nalfeshnee, who does it's primary damage in melee range and has sole damage from Divine Wrath outside its reach, is going to be staying far away from the Cleric, thus allowing the advantageous range focused CC the ability to use Searing Light.

That about right? The grapple and theft focused demon is going to never be in melee range or attempt to grapple the full spellcaster who's focused on non-melee combat...

This is white room nonsense.

No, the Nalfeshnees will be at melee range. It doesn't change the fact that the Warpriest can't get to melee as the Nalfeshene has 15 ft. of reach.

So, the Warpriest has to cast Air Walk and get next to the Nalfeshnee. The Nalfeshnee attacks and flies away (you don't have the choice). The Warpriest runs after the Nalfeshnee. Maybe makes one attack if the Nalfeshnee did only one move. The Nalfeshnee comes back and attack twice on the casters. The Warpriest has to come back again. If the Warpriest, by any chance, starts dealing damage, the Nalfeshnee just needs to dispell his Air Walk or they can gang up on him as he's alone running after them. But the Warpriest doesn't have infinite Air Walks. And anyway, considering its sub par efficiency, maybe at some point the Warpriest will start casting Heal, because it's what he does the best.

How is this different from any other melee martial, aside from the fact that a fighter wouldn't be able to cast Air Walk on themselves in the first place?


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SuperBidi wrote:

A Warpriest can't do anything against a Nalfeshnee. He will never get to melee range. So, it will be a healbot. That's the issue of the Warpriest without Wisdom, you end up being a healbot as soon as the fight is not extremely simple.

A high Wisdom Cleric on the other hand will cast Searing Light for crazy damage + good weakness or Divine Wrath if he can get the 2 Nalfeshnees in the area for average damage + good weakness. So, the Nalfeshnees will have to deal with him as he is clearly killing them quickly.

What is the Nalfeshnee going to do to the WP if it's never at melee range? It only has one ranged attack Divine Wrath. The WP with a min Con of 14 (more than easy to hit at level 15) has a Fort of +24, probably higher from their armor runes, meaning they have a better than 50% chance to take no damage from the Nalfeshnee's two-action spell.

The CC on the other hand has at best a +23 (before runes) meaning they have to roll an 11 or better to take half damage and only a natural 20 for no damage and that is with using Canny Acumen.


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Salamileg wrote:

How is this different from any other melee martial, aside from the fact that a fighter wouldn't be able to cast...

It takes almost no nuance into account and assumes everything for proving their point.

Why no Athletics checks to jump for a strike?

Why can't the WP still use Searing Light because the 15 weakness damage already makes it significant?

What about ranged attacks with cold iron arrows/bolts/bullets/javelins?

What about the Malk_Content play style (Druid raises terrain so WP can attack)?

What about a reach based weapon or anything that would enhance reach (Enlarge?)?

What about if the demon chooses to grapple them?

What about a caster knocking the demon down with a spell?

Add infinity.

Nope! The Nalfeshnee is literally going to dance at the edge of attack range with no qualms whatsoever for perfect and ultimate destruction!

But somehow when he's faced with a Cloistered Cleric, he's forgotten how to grapple and is dumb enough to stand next to his companion Nalfeshnee so they can both be targeted with the same AoE spell.

Gosh I had no idea that playing a CC made enemies act like the AI in a roomba, but when playing a WP they somehow execute perfect strategy with impunity and no counters.

Must have missed that part of the doctrines...


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Ah, but a true melee combatant would never have gotten themselves into this kerfuffle in the first place! For you see...


Salamileg wrote:
How is this different from any other melee martial, aside from the fact that a fighter wouldn't be able to cast Air Walk on themselves in the first place?

Rangers and Rogues are excellent with range weapons, even when built for melee (except Ruffian Rogues).

Monks have crazy mobility, with the possibility to jump high enough or even fly.
Barbarians and Fighters can have 15ft. of reach.
Some Barbarians (Animal) can have crazy mobility. Barbarians are good at grappling, to force the Nalfeshnee to fall.
Barbarians and Fighters can also be good at range, as Fighters are often increasing Dexterity and Raging Thrower gives Barbarians excellent ranged damage.
Most martials can have AoO, forcing the Nalfeshnee to take an attack if he moves away.
The only one who's sad is the Champion.

The Warpriest lacks mobility, range, debuff, disable and all these things. His spell list is what allow him to deal with special fights where he can't just easily get to melee range and stay there.


Midnightoker wrote:
Why no Athletics checks to jump for a strike?

I haven't found a rule for that.

Midnightoker wrote:
Why can't the WP still use Searing Light because the 15 weakness damage already makes it significant?

Well, considering the lack of proficiency and the dumped Wisdom, it will certainly be a failure. The goal of not dumping Wisdom is to use such tactics.

Midnightoker wrote:
What about ranged attacks with cold iron arrows/bolts/bullets/javelins?

A bow with Trained proficiency or a crossbow with expert proficiency? Make me dream.

Midnightoker wrote:
What about a reach based weapon or anything that would enhance reach (Enlarge?)?

You need Enlarge and a reach weapon. If your deity weapon isn't a reach weapon, you'll end up with a Longspear or a Trained proficiency reach weapon. And less runes as it's a backup weapon.

Midnightoker wrote:
What about if the demon chooses to grapple them?

Yeah, and? Still 15 ft. of reach.

Midnightoker wrote:

What about the Malk_Content play style (Druid raises terrain so WP can attack)?

What about a caster knocking the demon down with a spell?

Yes, you can wait for the others to do the job.

Midnightoker wrote:
Add infinity.

Add infinity.


For the purposes of this example, shouldn't you be able to attack someone that's out of their reach if they're grappling you? I mean, part of their body is in your space.


Salamileg wrote:
For the purposes of this example, shouldn't you be able to attack someone that's out of their reach if they're grappling you? I mean, part of their body is in your space.

It's not RAW.

And anyway, Nalfeshnees don't have any incentive in grapling. So, I don't know why they would grab instead of trip.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Salamileg wrote:
For the purposes of this example, shouldn't you be able to attack someone that's out of their reach if they're grappling you? I mean, part of their body is in your space.

It's not RAW.

And anyway, Nalfeshnees don't have any incentive in grapling. So, I don't know why they would grab instead of trip.

Grappling requires the target to take an action, a check, and contributes to their MAP when you try to escape. Trip just requires them to use an action. Tripping is typically better when something has AoO, otherwise grappling usually wins out.


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Funny, you left about half the responses that were dependent on team work, but lets go ahead and continue with this white room nonsense:

Quote:
Well, considering the lack of proficiency and the dumped Wisdom, it will certainly be a failure...

yes the +3 difference inherently means the WP will miss, because after all 15% = 100%

Quote:
I haven't found a rule for that.

High Jump, Strike. You do not fall on your turn, that is why "Grab an Edge" is a reaction because falling occurs when it is not your turn.

Quote:
A bow with Trained proficiency or a crossbow with expert proficiency? Make me dream.

Oh did we forget about Elves? How about Slings? Last time I checked Deities got ranged weapons too.

Quote:
You need Enlarge and a reach weapon. If your deity doesn't have a reach weapon, you'll end up with a Longspear or a Trained proficiency reach weapon. And less runes as it's a backup weapon.

Funny, when you described why this was a non-issue for Fighter/Barbarian, you argued it as if every fighter/barbarian got these.

I guess we just get to assume the WP never has what you say they never have.

Oh, and as has been mentioned, Enlarge is on Gorum's list.

Quote:
Yeah, and? Still 15 ft. of reach.

And not using the hit and run tactics you were pushing earlier because it no longer can.

Again, how is this better for the CC? You know, who can't attack or cast spells in this scenario and has almost 0 chance to break the Grapple.

Quote:
Yes, you can wait for the others to do the job.

Ah so the WP is awful because he has to work with a team, but the CC is somehow going to be perfectly safe

Quote:
Add infinity.

Let's put an end to it then. I'll refrain from here.


Midnightoker wrote:
yes the +3 difference inherently means the WP will miss, because after all 15% = 100%

100% chance to land a spell. I want your build.

You lose 30% efficiency, which is a lot. You can also cast Heal, you have full efficiency with it.

Midnightoker wrote:
High Jump, Strike. You do not fall on your turn, that is why "Grab an Edge" is a reaction because falling occurs when it is not your turn.

Not in the rules. You land immediately after a high jump.

Midnightoker wrote:
Oh did we forget about Elves? How about Slings? Last time I checked Deities got ranged weapons too.

Elven Warpriest, because the Warpriest is not MAD enough!

Slings :D
I'm speaking of melee Warpriest. The range Warpriest is far more able in general.

Midnightoker wrote:
Funny, when you described why this was a non-issue for Fighter/Barbarian, you argued it as if every fighter/barbarian got these.
SuperBidi wrote:
Barbarians and Fighters can have 15ft. of reach.

Reading comprehension issue?

Midnightoker wrote:
Oh, and as has been mentioned, Enlarge is on Gorum's list.

True. That works. It's still limited to few deities.

Midnightoker wrote:
And not using the hit and run tactics you were pushing earlier because it no longer can.

Nalfeshnees don't grapple anyway. And they won't grapple to put themselves in a bad situation.

Now, if you speak of grappling the Nalfeshnee yourself, then, it's possible. But the Warpriest has nothing to help with grapple and has hard time changing weapon as he has low proficiency with other weapons.

Midnightoker wrote:
Again, how is this better for the CC? You know, who can't attack or cast spells in this scenario and has almost 0 chance to break the Grapple.

The CC can deal damage to the Nalfeshnees. It's quite a big difference.

Midnightoker wrote:
Ah so the WP is awful because he has to work with a team, but the CC is somehow going to be perfectly safe

Well, if you can't work on your own, it's more being dependant to the team than working with the team. Maybe the other players want to do something else than helping the Warpriest.

Midnightoker wrote:
Let's put an end to it then. I'll refrain from here.

Ok.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

We also forget that in actual real game scenarios there isn't

a) infinite space to kite

b) some objective on one side that the other presumably wants to stop

An enemy whose sole tactic is strike then run away by its very nature cedes ground and ceded ground 95% of the time means ceding the objective.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Midnightoker wrote:

What about the Malk_Content play style (Druid raises terrain so WP can attack)?

I have a style!


SuperBidi wrote:


Not in the rules. You land immediately after a high jump.

Citation please :)

I looked. There is nothing that states "you land immediately after a high jump."

Malk_Content wrote:
I have a style!

You wear it well!


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SuperBidi wrote:
A Warpriest can't do anything against a Nalfeshnee. He will never get to melee range. So, it will be a healbot. That's the issue of the Warpriest without Wisdom, you end up being a healbot as soon as the fight is not extremely simple.

I recommend any melee based character to always carry a backup ranged attack. Let assume this 10 Wisdom cleric started as human, and had 16 Str/16 Dex/14 Con/8 Int/10 Wis/12 Cha at 1st level, and by 15th has 20 Str/20 Dex/18 Con/10 Int/10 Wis/18 Cha. At which point, picking up a backup +2 striking longbow at 15th level makes a lot of sense. Thats only ~1,020 gp out of ~13,500 gp. Cold iron arrows are dirt cheap at 15th level (2.01 gp per arrow, 50 are only ~100 gp). Might as well carry a set of each cold iron, silver, and normal (~201.5 gp total).

Nalfeshnee have an AC of 34. 20 Dex warpriest rolls 15+2(trained)+5(dex)+2(rune)=+24. Hits on an 10 or higher. Better than 50/50 odds.

Lets take that general purpose Iomedea spell list I presented earlier, and assume they have divine weapon (as a melee warpriest that seems like a given).

Divine Weapon + Any spell (i.e. true strike, heal, etc) + Cold Iron arrows means 2d8+2 (piercing/cold iron)+1d6 (good) +15 weakness vs good + 15 weakness vs cold iron. Average damage is 44.5. Criticals only deal 64.5 on average though.

One shot expected damage (say with a heal): 0.5*44.5 + 0.05*64.5 = 25.475 expected damage
Second shot (say on a true strike or 1-action focus spell turn): 0.25*44.5 + 0.05*64.5 = 14.35 expected damage

Potentially 39.825 expected damage from 2 actions + 1-action spell. On a true strike + strike + strike turn its roughly 51 expected damage.

The Iomedea spell list I presented can do that for 3 turns (3 true strikes) for roughly 153 expected damage. Given its a party of 4, such a warpriest is expected to do its share of 1/4 of the enemy's hit points (720 hit points for 2 Boar demons) in 4 turns (using Athletic rush1-action heal on the 4th to trigger on turn 4). Not too bad for something that is supposed to be a worst case scenario. Using only 1st level spells and focus spells. And if it is being a healbot, thats still ~25-40 damage a turn on top of healing 36-100 damage a turn.

I think that particular healbot is doing reasonable damage, even with a backup weapon against demons. Note, I have used nothing here that wouldn't be useful against other types of enemies as well, and no spells slots above 1st level other than heal spells.

SuperBidi wrote:
A high Wisdom Cleric on the other hand will cast Searing Light for crazy damage + good weakness or Divine Wrath if he can get the 2 Nalfeshnees in the area for average damage + good weakness. So, the Nalfeshnees will have to deal with him as he is clearly killing them quickly.

Searing light is a terrible general purpose spell. Its great for fighting undead and demons. Against other targets it is 1) Single target 2) Requires an attack roll against AC, so failures do nothing, 3) Does less damage than fireball (5d6 vs 6d6, both get 2d6 per level), and 4) is medium range at 120 feet.

The problem against Devils is they are nearly all immune to fire, making it only deal 5d6 + 2d6 per heightened level damage.

Sure its good if you know what you're getting yourself into, but a warpriest with the same information would likely tailor their spell list and/or equipment as well (i.e. emblazon on the bow with 10 minutes of effort for an extra 3.5 per shot).

Can you present a level 15 general purpose spell list this cloistered cleric would generally have memorized, as opposed to one optimized to specifically fight demons? We can also use it to consider how often a cleric is going to be able to cast counteract spells on level.

Edit: Forgot divine weapons requires spell slot spells, focus spells don't work. 1-action heal does though.


Midnightoker wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:


Not in the rules. You land immediately after a high jump.

Citation please :)

I looked. There is nothing that states "you land immediately after a high jump."

Malk_Content wrote:
I have a style!
You wear it well!

Source Core Rulebook pg. 470

"If you Leap vertically, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface."

Nothing about staying in the air.


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SuperBidi wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 470
"If you Leap vertically, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface."

Nothing about staying in the air.

It doesn't say anything about hitting the ground instantly either, and since that would interrupt your turn, I don't see why it occurs instantly.

Are you arguing that if there is no surface that you cannot jump at all?

Also note the can, which if omitted would corroborate your point.


Hiruma Kai wrote:
I recommend any melee based character to always carry a backup ranged attack.

That is clearly a good advice.

Hiruma Kai wrote:
Let assume this 10 Wisdom cleric started as human, and had 16 Str/16 Dex/14 Con/8 Int/10 Wis/12 Cha at 1st level

That's a crazy high Dexterity for a Warpriest. But it's true that you dump Wisdom so you have to compensate.

Hiruma Kai wrote:
Divine Weapon + Any spell (i.e. true strike, heal, etc) + Cold Iron arrows means 2d8+2 (piercing/cold iron)+1d6 (good) +15 weakness vs good + 15 weakness vs cold iron. Average damage is 44.5. Criticals only deal 64.5 on average though.

And average 14.5 damage without weaknesses. Ok, it works against demons, but you can't count on your bow against most monsters. And considering that you haven't put a single stat increase into Wisdom, it's your only way to deal with enemies you can't get into your melee reach easily. So, you'll end up as a healbot very often.

As a side note, I don't consider that being a healbot is bad in itself, it's just very limited for a play style, and rarely what you expect by playing a Warpriest.


Midnightoker wrote:
Are you arguing that if there is no surface that you cannot jump at all?

Of course you can jump, and end up on the ground. There is nothing in the rules about being able to "stay in the air".


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Midnightoker wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 470
"If you Leap vertically, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface."

Nothing about staying in the air.

It doesn't say anything about hitting the ground instantly either, and since that would interrupt your turn, I don't see why it occurs instantly.

Are you arguing that if there is no surface that you cannot jump at all?

Also note the can, which if omitted would corroborate your point.

The Sudden Leap feat allows you to make a Leap and strike during it. Presumably, if anyone was able to do it, it wouldn't be a level 8 feat.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:
Divine Weapon + Any spell (i.e. true strike, heal, etc) + Cold Iron arrows means 2d8+2 (piercing/cold iron)+1d6 (good) +15 weakness vs good + 15 weakness vs cold iron. Average damage is 44.5. Criticals only deal 64.5 on average though.
And average 14.5 damage without weaknesses. Ok, it works against demons, but you can't count on your bow against most monsters. And considering that you haven't put a single stat increase into Wisdom, it's your only way to deal with enemies you can't get into your melee reach easily. So, you'll end up as a healbot very often.

I have to wonder if you're deliberately ignoring the part about the bow being the backup weapon for the WP, so wouldn't be used against the majority of opponents.


Saldiven wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:
Divine Weapon + Any spell (i.e. true strike, heal, etc) + Cold Iron arrows means 2d8+2 (piercing/cold iron)+1d6 (good) +15 weakness vs good + 15 weakness vs cold iron. Average damage is 44.5. Criticals only deal 64.5 on average though.
And average 14.5 damage without weaknesses. Ok, it works against demons, but you can't count on your bow against most monsters. And considering that you haven't put a single stat increase into Wisdom, it's your only way to deal with enemies you can't get into your melee reach easily. So, you'll end up as a healbot very often.
I have to wonder if you're deliberately ignoring the part about the bow being the backup weapon for the WP, so wouldn't be used against the majority of opponents.

The point I want to make is that the Warpriest has issues when dealing with non classical fights. If the monsters are flying, using hit and run tactics, using maneuvers and things like that, the Warpriest is often unable to adapt as he has absolutely no built in abilities for that. So, having high Wisdom is very important as your spell list gives you alternate actions to handle such situations. Without a proper Wisdom, you end up casting Heal all the time.


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Kasoh wrote:

The Sudden Leap feat allows you to make a Leap and strike during it. Presumably, if anyone was able to do it, it wouldn't be a level 8 feat.

Fair point there.

That said this piece:

"Make a Leap, High Jump, or Long Jump and attempt one melee Strike at any point during your jump."

Does inherently make it different (this is effectively "Fly by attack" via Jump) than what I was describing, but I'm less married to the concept of doing this and was more so "poking the bear".

I thank you for providing a citation and not just making broad dictations :)

Quote:
The point I want to make is that the Warpriest has issues when dealing with non classical fights. If the monsters are flying, using hit and run tactics, using maneuvers and things like that, the Warpriest is often unable to adapt as he has absolutely no built in abilities for that. So, having high Wisdom is very important as your spell list gives you alternate actions to handle such situations. Without a proper Wisdom, you end up casting Heal all the time.

The point I want to make is that the Cloistered has issues when dealing with non classical fights. If the monsters are grapplers, using immobilizing or anti-caster tactics, using maneuvers and things like that, the Cloistered is often unable to adapt as he has absolutely no built in abilities for that. So, having a high Wisdom isn't very important in those cases, because you have no alternate actions to handle those situations. Without a proper STR/DEX they will always fail these checks, and therefore not be able to cast any spells at all.


Midnightoker wrote:
The point I want to make is that the Cloistered has issues when dealing with non classical fights. If the monsters are grapplers, using immobilizing or anti-caster tactics, using maneuvers and things like that, the Cloistered is often unable to adapt as he has absolutely no built in abilities for that. So, having a high Wisdom isn't very important in those cases, because you have no alternate actions to handle those situations. Without a proper STR/DEX they will always fail these checks, and therefore not be able to cast any spells at all.

You can cast spell while grappled. The monsters have to make a critical success to their grapple check to immobilise the Cleric.

Also, you want other characters to cast spells to help the Warpriest, but you consider perfectly normal for the party members to let the monsters get to the Cleric. Champion Reactions, Attacks of Opportunity, there are tons of things your allies will do without even thinking about it as it's basically free for them.
Now, I agree that monsters can target one party member with the proper tactic, but it's the case for everyone. The Warpriest can also be put down if focused.
It's much more of an issue to not be able to properly affect enemies because you lack abilities to get to them easily.


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The Jump spell (Arcane/Occult) has this to say: You must land on a space of solid ground within 30 feet of you, or else you fall after using your next action. To me, that's circumstantial evidence that you get to take an action while in the air after a Leap/High Jump, though it's a spell so I guess that's up to your GM if they'd allow it with a regular jump.

With respect to Sudden Leap, it's an action saver, much like Sudden Charge. Normally a Long Jump/High Jump are two action activities, so that + strike would be 3 actions. That said, Quick Jump is only a Trained Athletics skill feat to give you a similar benefit, minus the initial Stride. Again, I'd allow a one-action Strike after a vanilla High Jump, but wouldn't be too upset if I was a player and a GM disagreed.

I'm pretty sure that if a monster has you grabbed with Reach, you can attack it even if you aren't adjacent and you don't have reach. I think we discovered that while running PFS 1-00, though I can't find the reference right now.


First World Bard wrote:

The Jump spell (Arcane/Occult) has this to say: You must land on a space of solid ground within 30 feet of you, or else you fall after using your next action. So I guess that's circumstantial evidence that you get to take an action while in the air after a Leap/High Jump, though it's a spell so I guess that's up to you GM if they'd allow it with a regular jump.

Looks like Leap + Strike is back on the menu boys!


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Midnightoker wrote:
Looks like Leap + Strike is back on the menu boys!

As an aside, Jump is a Cleric spell for Irori, so if you want to jump up and punch someone, he's your god. I haven't received my PDF of Gods and Magic yet, so I dunno if there are any other deities that grant Jump to their clerics...


I do have a lot of experience playing casters at high level in other game systems, especially PF1. PF2 is a pretty new game and I haven't played a caster to level 15 in this system, but I have been paying very close attention to the differences that the casting system has undergone from PF1 to PF2 and I think it is pretty easy to overlook how much the casting ability (proficiency and attribute modifier) have been built into spell casting in ways that were not true in PF1. Assuming that your cleric is going to be able to do all the buffing and protecting the party from common high level hazard situations that they could do in PF1 without having to make counteract checks, or having their spells counteracted, is dangerous.

Some of these dangers are shared by the Cloistered Cleric, but the game math is balanced around the assumption that casters have decently high spell casting abilities, because it is a character defining element of their build. In fact, PF2 has taken great lengths to prevent you from building a character that is not at least competent at its class defining abilities. Hanging out 5 to 7 points behind dedicated casting clerics is entering into one of those areas where you might likely find yourself in a place where your character has nothing they can do in the situation.

Being Demons, there is actually a lot of things that a 15th level Cloistered Cleric might have up their sleeve to help them in a fight against a Boar Demon. For example, if they have freedom of movement, it shuts down one of the most serious weaknesses that a cloistered cleric might face. Which means that it is also a thing that they should have prepared and be ready with. Even so, the cloistered cleric should be prepared for the possibility of dispelling since it is the kind of spell that doesn't often get heightened, but it is easier to do that with a decent spell casting DC/ Spell roll.

At no point have I been saying that tanking your WIS results in an unplayable character. But its weaknesses are glaring, more difficult to adjust around, and easy for many newer players to miss, because the intricacies of spell rolls, counteract checks, etc can take a long time to wrap your head around in play. The System is relatively good at stopping you from creating too glaring a weakness for yourself, and giving you ways to overcome it, but for spell casting classes, that often hinges on being able to cast your spells without getting shut down by a single creature that is a level lower than you, which is the situation that the 15th level Warpriest can easily find themselves in.

And the trouble is that a Warpriest with a 10 WIS at level 1 isn't going to be feeling these issues for many levels. Probably not before level 10. Which can mean writing off WIS as an attribute until the point that they are really regretting it and there isn't a great way to get balanced back up unless your GM lets you do a pretty hefty retraining.

I think it is good design to make full caster classes put their attribute boost in their casting attribute and not have the same flexibility as martials with it, because it reinforces that the major class you have (full spell casting), is tied very closely to one attribute.


Also a Boar Demon has a 15ft reach and fly speed of 40ft, and a reaction that can disarm you relatively easily if you ever take an attack and miss. It can sit above you, dispel your buffs that let you get to it, follow you around and then start making swooping attacks on you when it has whittled down your defenses. Also, it might just not care about you and go around causing destruction and chaos all around you, accomplishing its goals without you being able to stop it. As the hero, it is probably a good idea to assume the burden of being able to beat foes a level lower than you, not just stalemate them.


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SuperBidi wrote:


It's not RAW.

Uh, the rules on size and reach specifically call out attacking extended limbs.


Squiggit wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:


It's not RAW.
Uh, the rules on size and reach specifically call out attacking extended limbs.

For reference, do you know where this is in the book? I could not for the life of me find it.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:


It's not RAW.
Uh, the rules on size and reach specifically call out attacking extended limbs.
For reference, do you know where this is in the book? I could not for the life of me find it.

I think maybe it's this section of CRB 474:

"Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. In that case, the GM will usually allow attacking the extended portion, even if you can't reach the main creature."


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Ultimately I love these passionate back and forths, I’ve learned like three new fresh raw things from this thread as a result


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Yeah, I was just going to pop in to cite that from Jump spell... Which notably is NOT phrased as "you CAN take 1 action before falling" (as a specific benefit of the spell would be). So IMHO it's clearly just "reminding" that you fall after taking 1 action while in mid-air (i.e. that is normal function). IMHO that really should be stated in core Leap/Jump or Falling rules, but I think the inference is clear here.

As to benefits of Sudden Leap, 1st there is the action economy benefit, Long Jump/High Jump normally are themselves 2 actions (including Stride) which is necessary to get full vertical/horizontal distance (beyond basic Leap). SL can get all that PLUS Strike for just 2 actions.
2nd, SL also reduces the High Jump DC and increases max distance. I think increased distance is meant to only apply to Long Jump not High Jump. I will post separate thread about that.
3rd, with SL you aren't landing prone or taking damage for falling, and to some extent it is comparable to Spring Attack: Somebody normally Jumping/Striking in mid-air can't continue movement, they just Fall straight down.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Ultimately I love these passionate back and forths, I’ve learned like three new fresh raw things from this thread as a result

Personally I hate when threads are derailed like this, all for some fragile defensiveness when somebody mentions something beyond their own assumptions (not even challenging original assumptions usage, just suggesting alternative). Maybe that debate and related rules issues ARE a (separate) legit thread topic, but it's like people lose all perspective and are responding in totally reactionary mode, bringing up crazy narrow details (Fly?) to somehow "win". Really makes me averse to participating because the whole conflict is misguided, not to mention off-topic. (Literally I was going to comment earlier, but chose not to rather than get involved in that mess)

I would say I appreciate that Unicore seemed to regain perspective and dialed back his hostility, if only it happened earlier I think discussion could have been more fruitful.


Quandary wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
Ultimately I love these passionate back and forths, I’ve learned like three new fresh raw things from this thread as a result

Personally I hate when threads are derailed like this, all for some fragile defensiveness when somebody mentions something which conflicts with their own view of "required" stats. Maybe that debate and related rules issues ARE a legit thread topic, but it's like people lose all perspective and are responding in totally reactionary mode, bringing up crazy narrow details to somehow "win". Really makes me averse to participating because the whole conflict is misguided, not to mention off-topic.

I would say I appreciate that Unicore seemed to regain perspective and dialed back his hostility, if only it happened earlier I think discussion could have been more fruitful.

I’m certainly guilty as well, and I agree in general, but was trying to find some positive notes to take away.

Jump interactions, attacking while grabbed, and the analysis by some here were more worthy gems for me personally.


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Midnightoker wrote:

I’m certainly guilty as well, and I agree in general, but was trying to find some positive notes to take away.

Jump interactions, attacking while grabbed, and the analysis by some here were more worthy gems for me personally.

Sure thing. And I did appreciate how some people dialed it back a bit for clearer perspective.

Anyhow, I actually was interested in different possibilities for how WP itself might be "tweaked" which thread was exploring before.

Also, since in passing people were mentioning how WP don't have martial abilities, I think it might be interesting to explore the martial abilities they can actually achieve with multiclassing, which seems the sort of thing WPs would be interested in. Considering both melee and ranged in that seems fruitful, since the latter seems to be ignored by many. Regardless, multiclass possibilities seem important to consider in context of potential changes or future errata to WP: Ideally these builds should still be meaningful i.e. changes shouldn't remove their relevance, and by the same token the changes shouldn't become overly powerful in certain multiclass combos.

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