Nocticula, the Redeemer Queen

[Waldham]

Hello, I have a question about Nocticula, the Redeemer Queen.

What are the actions from Nocticula to obtain the redemption ?

Where are these informations ?

Thanks for your future answer.

[VoodistMonk]

What actions led to her alignment change?

She started hunting and killing Demon Lords, which is still considered an act of good even if you are also a Demon Lord, apparently.

I found that information on pathfinderwiki:

"...With each death, her power grew, as did her conviction to turn against her demonic nature; she eventually made it her goal to become a full goddess and abandon evil.

Some time after aiding a group of adventurers that later defeated Deskari and closed the Worldwound, Nocticula vanished from the Abyss and achieved her goal, leaving her demonic nature behind and becoming a full goddess..."

[Artofregicide]

VoodistMonk wrote:

What actions led to her alignment change?

She started hunting and killing Demon Lords, which is still considered an act of good even if you are also a Demon Lord, apparently.

I found that information on pathfinderwiki:

"...With each death, her power grew, as did her conviction to turn against her demonic nature; she eventually made it her goal to become a full goddess and abandon evil.

Some time after aiding a group of adventurers that later defeated Deskari and closed the Worldwound, Nocticula vanished from the Abyss and achieved her goal, leaving her demonic nature behind and becoming a full goddess..."

For her own personal power/revenge. So hopefully different than all the other demon lords who kill their kind. But attractive women are just so much more redeemable.

Lamashtu is misunderstood too. Just like the 2e green kender.

Though the whole topic is a can of worms that particularly irksome to our dinosaur overlord.

[Kasoh]

Waldham wrote:

Hello, I have a question about Nocticula, the Redeemer Queen.

What are the actions from Nocticula to obtain the redemption ?

Where are these informations ?

Thanks for your future answer.

So, when a mad Runelord started messing with time, a group of adventurers rose to the occasion and tried to fix it. During this time, they came into contact with a member of the Redeemer Queen's cult. Later, they traveled back in time and helped set right an error in the time stream. Part of righting this wrong involved a person who worshiped Noticula who, in theory, at that point became aware that in the future, she will ascend to a non evil goddess, or that the notion of leaving her past behind was possible.

So for the past several thousand years, Noticula has been working her way up to it. Doing nice things for people presumably, assassinating demon lords, granting spell casting to heretical worshipers who think of her not in the succubus assassin way, but the cool bohemian artist way.

The only other big action I recall she took was helping the Champions of the 5th crusade in their efforts defeat Baphomet and Deskari before the world wound closed.

Sometime after that, she ascended.

Return of the Runelords, Wrath of the Righteous, and Lost Omens World Guide I think are the sources to check for more details.

[Nyerkh]

Sadly, the big of it happened off screen.
We knew it was coming on the meta front, we saw hints in WotW, but the details kind of just never made it to us.
To be fair, it'd be hard to involve PCs and just a huge infodump isn't easy to fit in most books. Still, I hope we learn more someday.

[Yqatuba]

It always kinda bothered me she was the demon lord they had get redemeed as it was pretty obviously because she's pretty. If, say, Dagon got redemeed that would be more interesting.

[MidsouthGuy]

Yqatuba wrote:

It always kinda bothered me she was the demon lord they had get redemeed as it was pretty obviously because she's pretty. If, say, Dagon got redemeed that would be more interesting.

I would love to have seen Dagon become a Chaotic Neutral deity of the deep ocean, or maybe Gogunta become a full deity of swamps. Pretty much any of the more monstrous Demon Lords being redeemed would have been more interesting to me than Nocticula.

[Yqatuba]

MidsouthGuy wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

It always kinda bothered me she was the demon lord they had get redemeed as it was pretty obviously because she's pretty. If, say, Dagon got redemeed that would be more interesting.

I would love to have seen Dagon become a Chaotic Neutral deity of the deep ocean, or maybe Gogunta become a full deity of swamps. Pretty much any of the more monstrous Demon Lords being redeemed would have been more interesting to me than Nocticula.

True, or even make them chaotic good as I'm not sure if there even are any good-aligned gods of the ocean currently. Can anyone confirm or deny?

[Rysky]

Aegirran

[Ryan Freire]

eh, its pretty obvious nocticula is meant to be the mirror to sarenrae.

[Nyerkh]

Eehhh... even though here he's a qlippoth turned demon lord, Dagon still is a lovecraftian mythos thing to start with. As such, he's among the least likely to ever change (see : the Azathoth vs Rovagug question elsewhere in these forums).
Even ignoring that, there needs to be someone to represent everything creepy, alien and terrifying about the sea, and Gozreh is not it.
It's true that there's surprisingly few Good sea/water deities (I count... 2, neither major ones,in Agirran and Ylimancha ? Plus 2 osiriani river gods, fwiw), but Dagon is not the one for the job.

Not that we're likely to see another redemption of that scale anytime soon anyway, that'd make the whole Nocticula arc trivial and irrelevant.
If we're to witness or be involved in another alignment shift from a big outsider player, I'd rather see a fall from grace, or a shift on the other axis (maybe see what the rumors of "Socothbenoth goes to Hell" lead to?).

On another matter:

Midsouthguy wrote:

I'm shocked a being stated as a known patron of violent sexual criminals [...] now holds the title of "Redeemer Queen"

Now, this might be my interpretation, but I don't think she was ever that. That seems more her brother's thing (and a few others).

I always saw Nocticula as the one who wields lust as a weapon more than the one to use all means to sate her lust. The temptress leading people to their ruin, the corruptor, the homewrecker,... For profit or just evil fun. The succubus way, "subtle and methodical", as opposed to the incubus approach of straight up force - since that's the difference in the PF-verse.
Still very much cruelty and horribleness (she might have a PhD), but in a different way.

This should really be in the lore forum, btw.

[Kasoh]

Nyerkh wrote:

On another matter:

Midsouthguy wrote:

I'm shocked a being stated as a known patron of violent sexual criminals [...] now holds the title of "Redeemer Queen"

Now, this might be my interpretation, but I don't think she was ever that. That seems more her brother's thing (and a few others).

I always saw Nocticula as the one who wields lust as a weapon more than the one to use all means to sate her lust. The temptress leading people to their ruin, the corruptor, the homewrecker,... For profit or just evil fun. The succubus way, "subtle and methodical", as opposed to the incubus approach of straight up force - since that's the difference in the PF-verse.
Still very much cruelty and horribleness (she might have a PhD), but in a different way.

This should really be in the lore forum, btw.

So, what is interesting to me about the morality of demon lords is that people, mortals, can see someone do horrible things and look for a reason why that happened. Some kind of illness or trauma that created the circumstances for a person to do evil. We may lack the understanding of those circumstances, but presumably something happened to an individual to do it. (Unless you think it takes the effort to not be monsters, but I digress)

With outsiders, there is no such circumstance. Evil is just what they are. I often have a hard time properly grasping the significance of that simple fact. Cruelty, murder, and all that are just natural expressions of being a demon.

You can't give them a pass for their evil because of it due to their autonomous nature, but its almost sad in the way an addict goes back to their bottle. So, when someone manages to rise up out of it, its a good thing and the enormity of what they've done is also hard to grasp.

As a quasi deity, Noticula was hard coded by the cosmos to be an evil lustful assassin. It took thousands of years of slowly chipping away at that...somehow. Lying to herself? Cheaply justifying good acts as part of some nefarious scheme? Turning her evil impulses against evil?

In Wrath of the Righteous, a succubus rises through intervention of a good deity. A hand was reached out and the succubus made a choice to take it, more or less. We're missing the detail in Noticula's story if someone on the other side offered to help, and that seems like a detail significant enough to be mentioned, so presuming there wasn't, Noticula did it by deciding to be a better version of herself and just working at it until the universe relented. (Unless its a stable time loop, in which case no one was responsible for anything.)

Even if you can't forgive her past, its still an impressive feat.

[Rysky]

Arushalae wasn't “offered a hand”, Desna tinkered with her soul that really messed with her for awhile.

And Nocticula decided to go on this path due to time traveling and syncing up, more or less, with her future non-evil self.

[Kasoh]

Rysky wrote:

Arushalae wasn't “offered a hand”, Desna tinkered with her soul that really messed with her for awhile.

And Nocticula decided to go on this path due to time traveling and syncing up, more or less, with her future non-evil self.

If it weren't for Desna, Arueshalae wouldn't have ever been redeemed. It might not have been a pleasant way to go about it but Desna went out of her way with that one, given her usual response to these things.

I reread the sidebar in Rise of the Runelords that mentions it and the time loop only happens if a PC is a worshiper of The Redeemer Queen. Otherwise it just happens. So, who knows? And we don't have enough time travel stories in Pathfinder to know if its timeline is self correcting or immutable, but given the entire plot of Rise, I have to think not. Noticula was under no obligation to fulfill that version of her future self.

[Rysky]

1) Your previous statement had it that Desna offered redemption and Arushalae willingly took it, that's not what happened.

2) Certain storyline elements and events in APs have been hardcoded as the game moved into Second Edition.

[Kasoh]

Rysky wrote:

1) Your previous statement had it that Desna offered redemption and Arushalae willingly took it, that's not what happened.

2) Certain storyline elements and events in APs have been hardcoded as the game moved into Second Edition.

I also said, "More or less." Deliberate outside intervention was the start of Arueshalae's rise contrasted to whatever it was that Noticula did.

I don't recall reading 'Time Travel Shenanigans' in The Lost Omen's world guide, so what details in this case have been hardcoded are in fact, still up to debate.

We know that Noticula rose from Demon Lord to CN deity. Return of the Runelords has a sequence in which that notion can be planted in her mind. Stating that she did it to 'sync up' with the future is just as much speculation.

[Rysky]

"More or less" still needs to be within the vicinity of what's being stated.

For Nocticula it's very heavily implied, but we'll see for certain most likely soon when Gods and Magic is released.

[Kasoh]

Rysky wrote:

"More or less" still needs to be within the vicinity of what's being stated.

For Nocticula it's very heavily implied, but we'll see for certain most likely soon when Gods and Magic is released.

I assumed that Desna meant for the chain of events to end in Arueshalae's redemption the entire time, and attributed it as such. Presuming too much on Desna's part perhaps, but that's the only way the chain of events makes sense to me.

[Rysky]

Kasoh wrote:

Rysky wrote:

"More or less" still needs to be within the vicinity of what's being stated.

For Nocticula it's very heavily implied, but we'll see for certain most likely soon when Gods and Magic is released.

I assumed that Desna meant for the chain of events to end in Arueshalae's redemption the entire time, and attributed it as such. Presuming too much on Desna's part perhaps, but that's the only way the chain of events makes sense to me.

Possibly, but Desna is also the Goddess of "Ooo what's this button do?"

[Kasoh]

Rysky wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

Rysky wrote:

"More or less" still needs to be within the vicinity of what's being stated.

For Nocticula it's very heavily implied, but we'll see for certain most likely soon when Gods and Magic is released.

I assumed that Desna meant for the chain of events to end in Arueshalae's redemption the entire time, and attributed it as such. Presuming too much on Desna's part perhaps, but that's the only way the chain of events makes sense to me.

Possibly, but Desna is also the Goddess of "Ooo what's this button do?"

Fair enough.

[blahpers]

Ugh. I can't even keep A, N, and S straight anymore as they basically cover the same tired trope.

[Nyerkh]

Pretty ladies do get redeemed at a much higher rate than anything else. And there's still not a lot of dumb ugly Good things. That'd be worth examining on its own.

Sorshen is more on the side of normal, though.
She's human, by some definition. That's some amount of free will, the possibiliy of a choice.
And more importantly, there's a healthy dose of pragmatism there : the world has changed and in a mere few years the people from this new world have pruned the runelords down to two.
She was there when it began, she thought she'd seen it all and nothing like that ever happened, self preservation is a strong motivator to adapt. That she herself was tired of it is a nice bonus.

[Yqatuba]

Nyerkh wrote:

Pretty ladies do get redeemed at a much higher rate than anything else. And there's still not a lot of dumb ugly Good things. That'd be worth examining on its own.

I think it's mainly because people have more sympathy for beautiful creatures (and not just humans, consider this: most people wouldn't think twice about stepping on a cockroach but would find the mere thought of killing a butterfly abhorrent, even though morally there's really no difference.)

[Tom Marlow]

Rysky wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

Rysky wrote:

"More or less" still needs to be within the vicinity of what's being stated.

For Nocticula it's very heavily implied, but we'll see for certain most likely soon when Gods and Magic is released.

I assumed that Desna meant for the chain of events to end in Arueshalae's redemption the entire time, and attributed it as such. Presuming too much on Desna's part perhaps, but that's the only way the chain of events makes sense to me.

Possibly, but Desna is also the Goddess of "Ooo what's this button do?"

I shall now forever think of Desna as Dee Dee from Dexter's Laboratory

[Skrayper]

Kasoh wrote:

So, what is interesting to me about the morality of demon lords is that people, mortals, can see someone do horrible things and look for a reason why that happened. Some kind of illness or trauma that created the circumstances for a person to do evil. We may lack the understanding of those circumstances, but presumably something happened to an individual to do it. (Unless you think it takes the effort to not be monsters, but I digress)

With outsiders, there is no such circumstance. Evil is just what they are. I often have a hard time properly grasping the significance of that simple fact. Cruelty, murder, and all that are just natural expressions of being a demon.

You can't give them a pass for their evil because of it due to their autonomous nature, but its almost sad in the way an addict goes back to their bottle. So, when someone manages to rise up out of it, its a good thing and the enormity of what they've done is also hard to grasp.

As a quasi deity, Noticula was hard coded by the cosmos to be an evil lustful assassin. It took thousands of years of slowly chipping away at that...somehow. Lying to herself? Cheaply justifying good acts as part of some nefarious scheme? Turning...

Ehhh... the idea of fallen angels is prevalent in both myth and religion, in RPGs and the real world. Why would evil be hard coded into their being but good be something that one could falter at?

That said, there is this tidbit.

Quote:

Succubi tend to be created from the souls of particularly lustful and rapacious mortals, damned to the Abyss

As well as:

Quote:

Nocticula originated as the first succubus in the Abyss, eventually ascending to become the demon lord of assassins and ruler of her former kind.

And:

Quote:

Instead, she reached into Arueshalae’s soul and quickened her larval core. Memories of her mortal life flooded back at once, memories of dreams that never came true.

Basically, all Succubi - including Nocticula - were originally mortals. Redemption would be incredibly difficult, considering their nature, but not impossible. Nocticula was simply the first succubus, and therefor was originally a mortal. She may not remember her mortal life, but she wasn't always a spawn of the Abyss.

So unlike other evil gods and such, she wasn't a product of creation nor was she birthed from the will of followers. She was a regular person who died, was damned to the Abyss, and eventually fought her way past that and into the redemption.

[Kasoh]

Skrayper wrote:

Ehhh... the idea of fallen angels is prevalent in both myth and religion, in RPGs and the real world. Why would evil be hard coded into their being but good be something that one could falter at?

Because Outsiders are their alignment. The essence of that alignment made manifest into a corporeal creature. Outsiders don't have a soul separate from their body, their body is their soul.

The supposed immutability of it makes falling or rising more significant. In theory.

I know there's fallen angels in Pathfinder. In fact, you can find them more often because turning good outsiders evil to fight PCs is a good way to use that part of the bestiary. I don't know of any particular story significant ones.

If it seems easier to fall than to rise, that's...I dunno man. Being good is hard or something. Falling angels is not my area of interest.

Skrayper wrote:

Basically, all Succubi - including Nocticula - were originally mortals. Redemption would be incredibly difficult, considering their nature, but not impossible. Nocticula was simply the first succubus, and therefor was originally a mortal. She may not remember her mortal life, but she wasn't always a spawn of the Abyss.

By that logic all demon lords were once people. Sure. I guess. I'm not saying that the others can't be redeemed if they wanted to. Just that its hard. Outsiders changing alignments should be rare.

Though, I don't think that a succubus is actually a 1 to 1 conversion of a lustful soul. Dretches and other lower demons fight and consume each other so any one demon is probably comprised of many fragments of souls. Is this borne out by any reading of the rules or lore? Depending on how reads the plurality of that succubus entry you quoted earlier, maybe.

[Skrayper]

Kasoh wrote:

Skrayper wrote:

Ehhh... the idea of fallen angels is prevalent in both myth and religion, in RPGs and the real world. Why would evil be hard coded into their being but good be something that one could falter at?

Because Outsiders are their alignment. The essence of that alignment made manifest into a corporeal creature. Outsiders don't have a soul separate from their body, their body is their soul.

The supposed immutability of it makes falling or rising more significant. In theory.

I know there's fallen angels in Pathfinder. In fact, you can find them more often because turning good outsiders evil to fight PCs is a good way to use that part of the bestiary. I don't know of any particular story significant ones.

If it seems easier to fall than to rise, that's...I dunno man. Being good is hard or something. Falling angels is not my area of interest.

It's fair that it isn't in your field of interest, just a point that I'm making that angels are both outsiders and are capable of abandoning their alignment. It's harder to go a different direction, which is why we have exactly two specific examples that I know of, while fallen angels are just listed as a common event.

Kasoh wrote:

Skrayper wrote:

Basically, all Succubi - including Nocticula - were originally mortals. Redemption would be incredibly difficult, considering their nature, but not impossible. Nocticula was simply the first succubus, and therefor was originally a mortal. She may not remember her mortal life, but she wasn't always a spawn of the Abyss.

By that logic all demon lords were once people. Sure. I guess. I'm not saying that the others can't be redeemed if they wanted to. Just that its hard. Outsiders changing alignments should be rare.

Though, I don't think that a succubus is actually a 1 to 1 conversion of a lustful soul. Dretches and other lower demons fight and consume each other so any one demon is probably comprised of many fragments of souls. Is this borne out by any reading of the rules or lore? Depending on how reads the plurality of that succubus entry you quoted earlier, maybe.

Why would that make all demon lords people? You can ascend to become a demon lord (as Nocticula did), so you could either be a fallen mortal (just like there gods that were formerly mortals) or a demon started off as a demon.

Nocticula's path:
Mortal - Succubus - Demon Lord - Goddess
Baphomet's path:
Mortal Minotaur - Demon Lord
Dagon's path:
Qlippoth - Demon Lord
Kostchtchie's path:
Mortal human - Cursed by Baba Yaga into a Frost Giant - Demon Lord
Pazuzu's path:
Demon Lord (Pazuzu's artifact also gives this:
The Scepter of Shibaxet can be broken by a redeemed demon lord if the regenerating towers of Shibaxet are already destroyed.)

It should be noted that Paizo treats Demon Lords as being mostly ascended demons, but others can become Demon Lords as well.

Quote:

Rarely, non-demons can become demon lords. The majority of non-demons who make this transition are ascended qlippoth, but in even rarer cases, a powerful non-native of the Abyss can attract the plane’s attention and make the transition to nascent demon lord.

As for the Succubus entry, that's from Paizo. It could mean all succubi, but it at least means SOME succubi. That lends credence to the paths made for redemption I pointed out. We know for a fact that's Arueshalae’s origin; I admit to speculation if it also applies to Nocticula.

[Thread Necromancers' Guild]

It's a fresh necro, but we'll allow it.

[Kasoh]

Skrayper wrote:

Why would that make all demon lords people? You can ascend to become a demon lord (as Nocticula did), so you could either be a fallen mortal (just like there gods that were formerly mortals) or a demon started off as a demon.

I was speaking quite broadly in that I wasn't about to check all the demon lords and find out their origins. Mortal>Demon>Demon Lord isn't unique to succubi I guess is my point. Mortal>Babau>Demon Lord is also equally possible.

I was also thinking about taking it further. If say a succubus is comprised of a mortal soul, then I'll further assume that at the core of a good outsider is also the manifestation of a virtuous soul with equal propensity for falling as demons for rising.

Which is all well and good, but I still think that Outsiders changing alignment should be rare. Even though I think the Planar book lists a place where the non alignment conforming outsiders can hang. (Of course, in a near infinite plane, a few hundred thousand contrarians is still a small percentage overall.)

And this all without even getting into those few who just do not stop at GO and Die and become unique outsiders who remember their previous lives. Special exceptions abound for those hooligans.

[Scavion]

Outsiders are literally forged of plane stuff which is made from countless(trillions? Literally uncountable) petitioners evaporating into their destination of judgement.

Arueshalae is a strange product of a deity literally forcing change on an outsider. What jives me the wrong way is that a "redeemed/fallen" outsider looks the same. I would think the physical manifestation of concentrated lust/evil/totally not mindrape would take on a different appearance once redeemed since I would hope they no longer are made up of that stuff. Outsider's forms and soul being one and the same and all.

Nocticula being the Ur-succubus and being one of the few examples of redemption strikes me as unlikely. It would be more believable had she been a figure of legend long past and a newer succubi demon lord finding redemption.

[Andostre]

Kasoh wrote:

If say a succubus is comprised of a mortal soul, then I'll further assume that at the core of a good outsider is also the manifestation of a virtuous soul with equal propensity for falling as demons for rising.

It sounds like you keep saying that because succubi are comprised of a mortal soul, then all demon/angel outsiders can also be comprised of a mortal soul. If that's what you're saying, I'm not sure how you're reaching that assumption.

[Kasoh]

Andostre wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

If say a succubus is comprised of a mortal soul, then I'll further assume that at the core of a good outsider is also the manifestation of a virtuous soul with equal propensity for falling as demons for rising.

It sounds like you keep saying that because succubi are comprised of a mortal soul, then all demon/angel outsiders can also be comprised of a mortal soul. If that's what you're saying, I'm not sure how you're reaching that assumption.

Well, we know demons are made of the souls of particularly sinful souls. Somewhere in the first few lines of any demon's bestiary entry mentions the kind of souls that become those demons.

Mortals die, become petitioners, get judged and sorted, and then can start the process of ascending to higher outsider forms, die again and become the essence of their assigned plane. That's roughly how the process works based entirely off recollection.

So, is it a 1 to 1 conversion? Will a soul/petitioner lucky enough to survive manifest into an outsider? Or is it that abyssal larvae get consumed and manifested together into a demon? That's the real question for me, and I don't have a good visual for non evil planes either.

But that's more or less the thought process there. Inside every demon is the remnant of a sinful mortal's soul. Or several mortal souls maybe. So, I think it is not entirely out of the bounds of logic to presume something similar happens to celestials.

[Skrayper]

Scavion wrote:

Outsiders are literally forged of plane stuff which is made from countless(trillions? Literally uncountable) petitioners evaporating into their destination of judgement.

I'm not sure I agree. You can play as an Aasimar who was born and raised on the material plane; you're still technically an "outsider" if you don't select a particular racial trait. They are stated as being at least partially composed of the essence, but they may not be fully composed of it.

Scavion wrote:

Arueshalae is a strange product of a deity literally forcing change on an outsider. What jives me the wrong way is that a "redeemed/fallen" outsider looks the same. I would think the physical manifestation of concentrated lust/evil/totally not mindrape would take on a different appearance once redeemed since I would hope they no longer are made up of that stuff. Outsider's forms and soul being one and the same and all.

That's fair, but it should be noted that she caused Arueshalae to remember her mortal self; she did not directly alter the being's alignment or forcibly change her mind.

A real world parallel would be to help someone regain their memory after severe trauma, even though that may make the person you are currently interacting with change.

Scavion wrote:

Nocticula being the Ur-succubus and being one of the few examples of redemption strikes me as unlikely. It would be more believable had she been a figure of legend long past and a newer succubi demon lord finding redemption.

I see what you are saying, but at the same time that meant she had way more time to claw her way back up.

Not to mention that she's Chaotic Neutral. It's not like she went all the way to Lawful Good or anything.

[Scavion]

Skrayper wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Outsiders are literally forged of plane stuff which is made from countless(trillions? Literally uncountable) petitioners evaporating into their destination of judgement.

I'm not sure I agree. You can play as an Aasimar who was born and raised on the material plane; you're still technically an "outsider" if you don't select a particular racial trait. They are stated as being at least partially composed of the essence, but they may not be fully composed of it.

Aasimar/Tieflings/Native Outsiders in general are exceptions to the idea. They can be raised, resurrected or reincarnated which informs us that their souls are not one and the same with their physical bodies.

Skrayper wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Arueshalae is a strange product of a deity literally forcing change on an outsider. What jives me the wrong way is that a "redeemed/fallen" outsider looks the same. I would think the physical manifestation of concentrated lust/evil/totally not mindrape would take on a different appearance once redeemed since I would hope they no longer are made up of that stuff. Outsider's forms and soul being one and the same and all.

That's fair, but it should be noted that she caused Arueshalae to remember her mortal self; she did not directly alter the being's alignment or forcibly change her mind.

A real world parallel would be to help someone regain their memory after severe trauma, even though that may make the person you are currently interacting with change.

I'm fairly certain Arueshalae did not consent to...whatever it is Desna did when she poked her nose into her soul. There is no meaningful or singular "mortal self" to refer to as outsiders are made up of the remains of countless different petitioners. "Arueshalae" doesn't exist as a mortal. The absurd numbers of obliterated petitioners that create outsiders is absurd. The material plane is massive and souls across the galaxy dying and being judged are innumerable. But the scale of the destination planes does not change ergo the number of requisite petitioners to create an outsider are similarly absurd. Except for Axiomites/Inevitables because reasons(They get a 1-1 conversion rate apparently)?

Skrayper wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Nocticula being the Ur-succubus and being one of the few examples of redemption strikes me as unlikely. It would be more believable had she been a figure of legend long past and a newer succubi demon lord finding redemption.

I see what you are saying, but at the same time that meant she had way more time to claw her way back up.

Not to mention that she's Chaotic Neutral. It's not like she went all the way to Lawful Good or anything.

The whole thing makes me cringe harder than Drizzt fans. Arueshalae is "desperate to love and be loved" and totally a romance-able option because you just gotta be able to have a relationship with the "It's okay because she's redeemed now Succubus."

[Coidzor]

Skrayper wrote:

It's fair that it isn't in your field of interest, just a point that I'm making that angels are both outsiders and are capable of abandoning their alignment. It's harder to go a different direction, which is why we have exactly two specific examples that I know of, while fallen angels are just listed as a common event.

Heck, fallen angels are common enough for them to comprise at least two types of devils. Admittedly, one of those types of devils is just a super-charged Erinyes.

Kasoh wrote:

Well, we know demons are made of the souls of particularly sinful souls. Somewhere in the first few lines of any demon's bestiary entry mentions the kind of souls that become those demons.

Mortals die, become petitioners, get judged and sorted, and then can start the process of ascending to higher outsider forms, die again and become the essence of their assigned plane. That's roughly how the process works based entirely off recollection.

So, is it a 1 to 1 conversion? Will a soul/petitioner lucky enough to survive manifest into an outsider? Or is it that abyssal larvae get consumed and manifested together into a demon? That's the real question for me, and I don't have a good visual for non evil planes either.

But that's more or less the thought process there. Inside every demon is the remnant of a sinful mortal's soul. Or several mortal souls maybe. So, I think it is not entirely out of the bounds of logic to presume something similar happens to celestials.

I believe outsiders are formed from a mix and match of those various options, especially when it comes to fiends. Some crawl out of the raw fundament of the plane. Some are formed out of a singular, individual petitioner. Some are formed out of several petitioners that have been combined, either by the action of the plane or by more powerful outsiders native to the plane. Sometimes ones formed out of multiple petitioners even have more of a single petitioner's personality preserved in the resulting outsider, too.

Arazni was at least one example of a mortal who became an astral deva before meeting Aroden again and becoming his herald.

Scavion wrote:

The absurd numbers of obliterated petitioners that create outsiders is absurd. The material plane is massive and souls across the galaxy dying and being judged are innumerable. But the scale of the destination planes does not change ergo the number of requisite petitioners to create an outsider are similarly absurd.

To be fair, it's hard on writers to meaningfully scale up from infinite.

It's even harder for most readers to wrap their brains around bigger infinities.

[Kasoh]

Coidzor wrote:

To be fair, it's hard on writers to meaningfully scale up from infinite.

It's even harder for most readers to wrap their brains around bigger infinities.

Or, since the planes themselves are nigh infinite, it doesn't matter if there's infinite amount of celestials and demons and devils and azatas and daemons and invetitables.

Of course, this also assumes that there's an even distribution of souls. I doubt its actually a perfect 9 way split on populating the aligned planes with petitioners.

Then again, with infinity, I suppose it doesn't matter. The number is so large as to make counting meaningless.

We know that both happen. Single individuals become outsiders. Multiple souls congeal into outsiders as well. We do not know the rate at which one or the other happens. And largely that isn't important.

So, according to myth Noticula may have been the ur-succubus. Could have been a single soul turned demon. Or many souls forming into a single avatar of lust and darkness. I don't know which one makes the story of her rise from evil better, but I think I prefer the version where there was no historic sense of a mortal in her past to harken back to. Then its a choice to change for the better instead of trying to regain something lost.