So, this is more just idle wishing, but I've been hankering to play a divine caster/archer type. Assume human race, point buy 15, and standard WBL etc etc.
The big issue I see with the build is MAD. I mean, cleric is still a 9th level caster, so it's not a big concern about being a useful character.
Would guided wisdom be worth it? Or just jump into the ranged feats? Anything else worth having? Not talking about hard core optimizing, this is already a tier 1 class.
If you've already built a cleric of Erastil archer, I'd love to see it.
I've also considered warpriest and inquisitor, but let's focus on cleric for now.
Bonus challenge: emulate a cleric of Erastil archer without using a divine spellcasting class.
By "Guided Wisdom"I assume youbmean GUIDED HAND? It'll make you less MAD, but it's 2 feats and since you're using a ranged weapon the prerequisite feat is useless to you.
Archers really want 3 feats minimum: Point blank shot, Precise shot, Deadly aim.
There are plenty of other feats that you'll want, but those are what it takes for you to be a functioning archer (not a good archer, just one that can hit occasionally and doesn't just tickle the enemy). If you take Guided Hand you'll be pushing some of thise feats back to at least level 7 as a human, or level 9 as anything else. I'm gonna have to say that's not worth it.
As for feats, there are plenty of guides, or you can look at the Ranger combat styles for ideas.
Bonus challenge: emulate a cleric of Erastil archer without using a divine spellcasting class.
Elf (for longbow) Bard gets some pretty good toys to emulate divine casters.
Occultist gets martial weapons and some decent toys as well (including using a Holy Symbol to cast some spells).
By "Guided Wisdom"I assume youbmean GUIDED HAND? It'll make you less MAD, but it's 2 feats and since you're using a ranged weapon the prerequisite feat is useless to you.
Archers really want 3 feats minimum: Point blank shot, Precise shot, Deadly aim.
There are plenty of other feats that you'll want, but those are what it takes for you to be a functioning archer (not a good archer, just one that can hit occasionally and doesn't just tickle the enemy). If you take Guided Hand you'll be pushing some of thise feats back to at least level 7 as a human, or level 9 as anything else. I'm gonna have to say that's not worth it.
As for feats, there are plenty of guides, or you can look at the Ranger combat styles for ideas.
Yeah, I meant guided hand. I know how to build a basic PF1e archer, I was more asking specifically about making this specific build work.
Since the build has 3/4 BAB and decent STR, it makes a decent switch hitter. So channel smite is just mostly useless...
The benefit to guided hand is that you can leave Dex at 10 and pump WIS. Obviously archer comes on later, but allows the build to be both a caster and an archer.
Without min-maxing too much, how about this spread?
STR 14
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 17
CHA 8
Bonus challenge: emulate a cleric of Erastil archer without using a divine spellcasting class.Elf (for longbow) Bard gets some pretty good toys to emulate divine casters.
Occultist gets martial weapons and some decent toys as well (including using a Holy Symbol to cast some spells).
We're assuming human, but the adopted trait would cover it.
Occultist sounds interesting.
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Erastil's Blessing lets you use Wisdom instead of Dex modifier for range attacks with a longbow. You need Weapon Focus as a prereq. I'm playing a Hinterlander PRC in Iron Gods right now and it can be really good especially against Favored Ennemies. When not facing those, I tend to step back a bit and use my spells for utility, buff, etc. I'm not too savvy with Cleric spells so I'm still learning what should be on my list and what shouldn't.
Anyway, it can be fun but I strongly suggests either Hinterlander and/or Ranger lvls for quicker access to the archery Feats and to dispense yourself from Point Blank Shot.
If archery is your main offense then spell DCs don't matter as much. Deadly aim has a prereq of 13 Dex, as do a lot of archery feats. Archers don't need HP as much as some. I'd use stats like these for a cleric archer aiming for the hinterlander PrC and forget guided hand/Erastil's blessing: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7. This is before any racial bonus/penalty of course.
Pretty late game, but the Divine Paragon archetype would allow you to snag the Evangelist Deific Obedience of Erastil without going into the prestige class.
So at lv 14 you get to add your wisdom modifier to both attack and damage against foes within 30 ft (and also a pretty neat companion power), in return for the powers of one of your Domains. You'd keep the domain spells and slots, so it's a pretty good deal if you've chosen one of your domains just for the spells.
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Guided hand does not let you qualify for feats. Rapid shot has dex 13, and more importantly, manyshot is 17.
Archery is already feat starved adding two extra is a killer. Guided hand is for casters who want something to do when they are not casting archers need dex to stay relevant. ARV has the correct stat breakdown in my opinion.
Archers take a lot of penalties to attack when you are playing one effectively so stacking attack bonuses is important.
I like an evangelist for this. If your using divine favour to boost your attack and damage why not use inspire courage and help the team instead. By level 7 you can divine favour/power and inspire courage in round one and wreck house after that.
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I've GMd for quite a few Archery Clerics. All suffered from similar problems with Action Economy. I became convinced that Clerics and Archery don't mix well. I rate archery cleric as one of the weakest and least effective types of cleric, barely matching the healbot cleric. Here's why.
Archers really want to use a Full Round Action to attack with arrows. This precludes spell casting and inspire courage. Typically, the archer clerics I observed had to choose between either casting a spell, starting Inspire Courage, or releasing arrows. They'd typically open with archery only against easy encounters. Against difficult opponents archery was rarely a first choice.
At low levels your archery cleric basically acts like a slightly inferior Fighter. At high levels your archery cleric ignores archery and casts spells. The two approaches have zero synchronicity.
As others have said, stay away from Guided Hand, both because you don't have the feats for it and because it's a trap feat.
Here are some suggestions:
1. Worship Erastil and play some non-divine warrior class. Concentrate on archery. You'll be an effective archer.
2. Play a melee Cleric of Erastil who also carries a bow. Here's an example of this sort of cleric of Erastil.
Erastil is terrific for melee clerics because he grants the most excellent and under-rated Plant(Growth) domain. Con: this approach is distressingly effective, some might say 'optimized'.
3. Play an archer cleric of Erastil but don't bother to invest much in archery. You'll never be very good at archery because, by the time you are, you'll have more important things to do that are not archery. Accept this, take other feats, and loose the occasional recreational arrow.
Woot first post in like 6 months :P I feel most have posted the biggest issue with the idea...you need feats and dex.
Honestly long long ago I had a similar idea and went with the inquisitor, specifically the sacred slayer archetype. Getting bonus teamwork feats will help and honestly divine favor with studied target never got old. Wisdom can be low since you are mainly buffing yourself/allies.
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Erastil has the Animal Domain, possibly use that to get a mount...?
Mounted archery solves a lot of the action economy woes of such a build.
It's still not stellar, but it's absolutely playable.
Something with reach will protect you as you casually shoot your bow and/or do your Cleric stuffs...
Oh no, a Cleric archer riding an Axebeak...
I think a well-rounded build using a decent compound bow could absolutely be functional at least, possibly decent, in most any printed material campaign setting.
Are you ever going to be the best Cleric or the best archer? Probably not...
Can you Deadly Aim/Conductive/"Bad Touch" and make it hurt? Probably...
Start with being Half-Orc, use a Orc HornBow, to be slinging greatsword-damage arrows everywhere. Immediately useful at level one...
Use your mount strategically to move you so you can always full attack.
You can literally pollute the battlefield with summons in your spare time between full attacks with your bow.
You can heal your party/summons with Quick Channel, and still at least attack with your bow after moving your mounts normal speed...
Options exist...
Have you thought of using a Warpriest instead of cleric? You don't get the 9th level casting, but you do get 6th level casting along with swift action buffing. You do get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat right out of the gate. You also get bonus feats, which are useful for an archery build. Finally, Sacred Weapon lets you add magical properties to your weapon, which helps you be almost as good as a martial.
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Everything Magda Luckbender said. You get to 9th level and suddenly realize that all you have are archery feats, except you don't use your bow much anymore.
Crusader archetype then. There's fewer spell slots but there's getting some extra feats, which is just enough to make the archery schtick work.
The inherent problem here is that you're nerfing the strong aspect (caster) to bolster the weaker aspect (martial).
Let's imagine you were a typical reach-cleric instead of an archer. The Herald Caller archetype is worth a look here; you're limited in what you can summon, but you get four skill-points per level instead of two, and gain three feats for free that you were going to take anyway: Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, and you are considered to have the tax-feat Spell Focus:conjuration (utterly worthless to a summoner) for prerequisite purposes. --This means you'll have plenty of room for Sacred Summons to spam the battlemat with minions as a standard-action. And all holyhell will break loose if your GM lets you buy or craft a Cauldron of Overwhelming Allies.
A high level cleric who throws down a blessing of fervor and casts a quickened buff or two (& likely with a long-term buff or three cast in advance) before shooting their enemies isn't terrible. Not as good as the pokemaster cleric or some other cleric builds perhaps, but generally good enough to get the job done.
There may be games where max optimisation is required, or where the cleric archer will be overshadowed by other PCs, but I think it will be a valid contributor to most parties.
All of these are good suggestions, and you point out a very significant concern: by the time that archery really comes online, you'll be casting spells for the most part anyway. Depends on the adventuring day. Though at higher levels scouting really becomes essential and self-buffing should happen before combat anyway.
Yeah I wasn't thinking of the Dex requirements of archery feats, which kind of defeats the point of swapping WIS for DEX. Even Erastil's blessing (great feat) doesn't really solve the problem.
I thought about Zen Archer but it really doesn't fit the bill. I guess I'm just prejudiced against monks. Maybe what I really want is an Inquisitor, Warpriest or Paladin of Erastil.
Hinterlander looks like a really awesome PrC, surprised I didn't notice it when I read Iron Gods (great AP).
While I love mounts, this build assumes human and size large mounts tend to not do well in dungeons. I suppose I could go with a size small race on a medium mount but that always felt cheesy to me, a little.
While my original idea was human, the idea of an orc hornbow + gravity bow is terrifying. I suppose adopted deals with that but feels gamey.
While I've played summoners (strategy not class) and they are indeed gamebreakingly effective, that's not the plan here.
That said, playing a summoner whose Eidolon is basically a stag archon would be cool, though technically suboptimal.
All in all I think I really just want to play an archer inquisitor...
If you want to primarily be an Archer, Inquisitor is a very strong choice.
That said, I believe that the archer cleric is one of the strongest options out there for a support cleric. You won't put up huge numbers, but you can be one of the most effective team players there is.
The key to this concept is mobility, usually via a mount. Unlike a melee cleric, it is easy for you to get where you need to go to render aid when someone gets in trouble, you don't have do disengage from combat, with a mount you have greater speed, and you also have a free move action to do something like pulling out a scroll, since you fighter just got blinded and you didn't memorize remove blindness today, but you have a scroll for every occasion in your haversack. This flexibility alone makes for a strong character.
Of course archery is really the only non-spell option for participating at range, so you are going to invest in that. You aren't going to be as great as a dedicated DPS archer, but you can make up for a lot of that by playing smart. If you can manage the last few points on an enemy that your melee character has just mauled bringing it down before its turn, that is more effective then a melee cleric doing a lot of damage to a different opponent, but not bringing it down. Archery lets you focus the damage you do where it is most effective.
And of course your first turn in a combat is probably a group buff, making everyone more effective for the whole combat. After that, unless something is going wrong you use your archery focusing on already wounded combatants. Since you aren't planning on using a whole lot of spells in combat you have plenty of (probably unfilled) slots available for utility magic.
This isn't a sexy high numbers concept, but it is an extremely effective one.
As for the build itself, you don't need a super high WIS since you are going to focus on support. A moderately good DEX is enough. You don't really need to spend a feat on boon companion since your aren't planning on taking your mount into melee so you can pick up some good archery feat.
Question: As a 9th level cleric, when are you going have time to use your bow and all those archery feats vs all the spells you have?
Every combat round after the first when none of the other PCs are in serious trouble.
All these suggestions towards other classes are cute and all, but the OP clearly states that this discussion is focused on fleshing out an archery CLERIC...
I think Dave Justus nailed it with his breakdown of how to effectively use said archery Cleric.
But I’d note that going archery instead of melee on a cleric has more costs than just eating up your turn + all your feats (and a Domain here): it takes you out of melee.
Party composition and other roles matter of course. In a typical 4 person party you probably want at least 2 on the line, and if your character needs to be one of them, whether you are making a cleric or not, you probably shouldn't be an archer. You can structure with other concepts in mind, but they generally have to be planned for, usually as a group.
Since we are primarily talking about archers though, the 'on the line' isn't really something that is going to be happening, whether it is an inquisitor archer or a paladin archer or a cleric archer, so the poor rogue better figure out some way to manage to deal damage without this particular character.
In the general sense, of which cleric is the best option, I will certainly agree that party composition matters. In my experience though, as long as you are looking at building a support character, in most parties the more mobile ranged cleric is more useful then a melee cleric. That said, I have most often played with 5-6 PCs, not a 4 man group.
the OP requested alternatives using a different class (2nd post in thread)...All these suggestions towards other classes are cute and all, but the OP clearly states that this discussion is focused on fleshing out an archery CLERIC...
I think Dave Justus nailed it with his breakdown of how to effectively use said archery Cleric.
Yeah, my original post was specifically in regards to an archer cleric of erastil, but I'm open to cool alternatives. But yeah I'm less interested in stuff like "forget building an archer, build a reach cleric summoner."
Yeah that might be closer to what the guides suggest but I'm more interested in cool or weird builds.
Totally the wrong way to do this, but if you want to look vaguely like and Erastile Archerer/Cleric but completely not be one...how about a Kinetisist?
Go Aether, telekinetic blast. Carry a bow, use Arrows in your kinetic blast. Kinetic healing for massive healing that nobody wants. Eventually you'll be able to get a longbow with the channel property so you can get a bonus to hit.
Sure, anyone that takes a long hard look at you is going to see you aren't an ugly duckling. You certainly aren't a swan. But your chicken with floaters can probably string along the common folk for a long time.
The only real advantage of this is nothing changes from any other Aether kinetisist build. Ok, you carry a bow that you probably aren't even proficient in. So?
This is super weird and I love it. I'd probably never play a kineticist but major props for creativity.
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Let's throw out some quick number of the evangelist.
Feats are PB, PS, RS, DA and Quicken.
Traits Magical Lineage and Fates Favored (obvious favourites for a cleric)
Stats:
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Level 7 When you need to hit hard.
Swift quicken Divine Favour, move Inspire Courage, Channel Vigor (haste). This is a very bad level for a cleric compared to a fighter as they have manyshot and an iterative attack. I'm excluding equipment because it would be similar.
Attack: Bab 5 + 3 dex + 3 DF + 2 IC + 1 haste = +14 -2 rapid shot -2 deadly aim
Damage: 1d8 + 8 + 4
Three attacks.
Let's check the fighter same stats:
Attack: BAB 7/2 + 3 dex + 1 weapon focus + 1 weapon training = +12 (-2 rapid shot -2 deadly aim)
Damage: 1d8 2+1+1+4
Three attacks at +8 (many and rapid shot) and a fouth a +3
The Fighter needs to cover a lot of ground with it's 4 remaining feats. But and this is a big one. The Cleric needs to make up for a whole round of damage and is limited to twice a day using different combinations of spells maybe a bit more with skilled precasting. Counter but:
Attack: Bab 5 + 3 dex + 3 DF + 2 IC = +13 -2 rapid shot -2 deadly aim
Damage: 2x(1d8 + 11) with more accurate attacks in not bad while you are also buffing the team.
Is it optimal? Naw, cast Blessing of Fervor and inspire. But is it vialable ya.
So inquisitor would be more the archer but with spells tweaking his abilities. Based on Grandlounge:
Feats: PB, PS, RS, DA, Boon companion, Friendly fire maneuver and Coordinated shot.
By level 7 hopefully you will have a lesser extend rod and Heroism will be lasting for 140 mins. Divine favor would be a standard, studied target would be a swift action...but the velociraptor would be running in with pounce during this. Once you get a ring of tactical precision, I would switch coordinated shot to improved spell sharing..then you split heroism, possibly divine favor with the animal companion. Sorry for the side track.
Attack BAB +5 +3 dex +3 DF +2 studied +2 heroism +1 coordinated =+16 (+-2 rapid shot, -2 deadly aim
Damage 1D8 +2+3+2+4
With the long duration and 5 level 1 spells you can do this pretty much every encounter. As a extra boost 7X per day you can bane the weapon to get +2 hit and damage with 2d6.
Not to mention better skills then either one..sadly at 8th level you could get the extra attack with many shot (or clustered shot)
Question: As a 9th level cleric, when are you going have time to use your bow and all those archery feats vs all the spells you have?Every combat round after the first when none of the other PCs are in serious trouble.
Murphy's Law: a PC will be in serious trouble one initiative count after your turn ends.
(Moral of the story: One of the most effective healbot clerics ever I saw was a halfling on some fairly innocuous critter with blazing speed. He'd charge up a Cure spell, then hold the rest of his action until somebody needed it. You got critted? Bam! He was there with the defibrillator before the next enemy stepped up to nail you again. He could heal way more than he could dish out, so everybody was happy he wasn't plinking instead.)
Herald Callers are excellent in being more versatile for the reasons explained but for strict fighting abilities, they're worse than the main class.
The halfling referred to above wouldn't lose a thing by being a Herald Caller. Mithral supplies his armor needs (which are light anyway due to excellent dexterity), and if pressed into close melee, he'll bad-touch with Weapon Finesse. A horde of summoned critters take care of ranged combat the rest of the encounter without further action-economy.
Question: As a 9th level cleric, when are you going have time to use your bow and all those archery feats vs all the spells you have?Every combat round after the first when none of the other PCs are in serious trouble.Murphy's Law: a PC will be in serious trouble one initiative count after your turn ends.
(Moral of the story: One of the most effective healbot clerics ever I saw was a halfling on some fairly innocuous critter with blazing speed. He'd charge up a Cure spell, then hold the rest of his action until somebody needed it. You got critted? Bam! He was there with the defibrillator before the next enemy stepped up to nail you again. He could heal way more than he could dish out, so everybody was happy he wasn't plinking instead.)
Herald Callers are excellent in being more versatile for the reasons explained but for strict fighting abilities, they're worse than the main class.The halfling referred to above wouldn't lose a thing by being a Herald Caller. Mithral supplies his armor needs (which are light anyway due to excellent dexterity), and if pressed into close melee, he'll bad-touch with Weapon Finesse. A horde of summoned critters take care of ranged combat the rest of the encounter without further action-economy.
I'd totally agree that would be a more effective character, but really healbot cleric is generally weaker than just a straight up full blown caster cleric + summons who sometimes throws down big heals.
That said, I'm less interested in the most optimized build and more a cool thematic build. Still needs to keep up, but honestly just playing a cleric alone is enough to keep pace.
So inquisitor would be more the archer but with spells tweaking his abilities. Based on Grandlounge:
Feats: PB, PS, RS, DA, Boon companion, Friendly fire maneuver and Coordinated shot.By level 7 hopefully you will have a lesser extend rod and Heroism will be lasting for 140 mins. Divine favor would be a standard, studied target would be a swift action...but the velociraptor would be running in with pounce during this. Once you get a ring of tactical precision, I would switch coordinated shot to improved spell sharing..then you split heroism, possibly divine favor with the animal companion. Sorry for the side track.
Attack BAB +5 +3 dex +3 DF +2 studied +2 heroism +1 coordinated =+16 (+-2 rapid shot, -2 deadly aim
Damage 1D8 +2+3+2+4
With the long duration and 5 level 1 spells you can do this pretty much every encounter. As a extra boost 7X per day you can bane the weapon to get +2 hit and damage with 2d6.
Not to mention better skills then either one..sadly at 8th level you could get the extra attack with many shot (or clustered shot)
God, I love velociraptors but having one with a cleric of Erastil seems weird, unless they're from a part of Golarion where dinosaurs are common.
I forget if that's the case in Numeria, I do know it's very pulpy as settings go.
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Erastil has the Animal (feather) domain. We now know that Velociraptors were feathered beasts. There's also the axe beak, another feathered beast, which makes a far more effective mount than does the velociraptor. On our Earth velociraptors went extinct 60 million years ago, while Terror Birds lasted until 2.5 million years ago. As OP said, though, that sort of optimization is not needed.
Erastil has the Animal (feather) domain. We now know that Velociraptors were feathered beasts. There's also the axe beak, another feathered beast, which makes a far more effective mount than does the velociraptor. On our Earth velociraptors went extinct 60 million years ago, while Terror Birds lasted until 2.5 million years ago. As OP said, though, that sort of optimization is not needed.
Still seems gamey unless you're in/from a region with dinosaurs, feathers or not.
I am the OP btw.
Still seems gamey unless you're in/from a region with dinosaurs, feathers or not.
In a world with the kind of magic represented by the Pathfinder system it isn't terribly difficult to find a justification for where such a thing would come from.
Rescued from a traveling menagerie.
Gifted as an egg from a friend in the Pathfinder Society.
In the area as a result of magical accident/crazy wizard/dinosaur cult
Those are just a few off the top of my head. Obviously what fits for your character is up to you, but I wouldn't consider it 'gamey' if someone decided that velociraptor was what they wanted.
I had a lot of fun playing my inquisitor. I played him as a monster hunter sent out to hunt those who preyed on his flock. With a 10 con the animal companion helped protect him and to help the hunt.
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The halfling referred to above wouldn't lose a thing by being a Herald Caller. Mithral supplies his armor needs (which are light anyway due to excellent dexterity), and if pressed into close melee, he'll bad-touch with Weapon Finesse. A horde of summoned critters take care of ranged combat the rest of the encounter without further action-economy.Mithral medium counts as light, but the character still requires the proficiency with the base armor to not get the penalties due to being nonproficient.
With the Armor Expert trait, the ACP of mithral breastplate is zero. Without it, it's only -1, and often not a factor due to the build's healing and summoning emphasis, neither of which require attack-rolls.