And how would you know this for certain?I don't think the "if you go this high, you are done for the day" thing is really a problem. Since that's basically saying "hey, don't go this high unless it's a really important situation and it's safe to be done for the day hereafter."
Like the Kineticist and the Medium both had it in PF1, which resulted in Medium players just never getting 5 points of influence.
A limit you can transcend at great cost if it really matters is better than a hard limit IMO.
I would agree because I have exceeded the Kineticist limit. In hindsight, it might have been better not to have done that, but I actually thought that I could finish off my opponent with a composite blast.
The Medium limit is much worse, as you never know what the GM might have your character do while he controls him. Since I decided that my Medium is a bit of a control freak, I have never had him accumulate that last point of influence.
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I like having that "Last Ditch Effort" option always available, and I think if it gets used once per campaign for a dramatic moment, that's perfectly good. I agree that falling unconscious afterward is excessively punitive to the point that you might not even want to use the option even in the most desperate circumstances.
One option that works for me would be:
- You become stuck at your highest curse level
- You can't take actions with the concentrate trait until you take an 8 hour rest (this effectively blocks most spellcasting, refocusing, and many productive actions, but doesn't render you worse than dead).
I mean the "you can exceed this limit and do something really useful, but thereafter your character is completely and permanently dead forever" is also a thing I like.
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I would prefer a "blaze of glory" where you could sacrifice a big bunch of hit points to supernova. That seems like a good gimmick for an oracle (and a champion if there needed to be a martial version).
i cast... SELF DESTRUCT!
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Hmmm, rather than knocking you unconscious make it so that that oracle cannot use any focus spells or points until the next daily preparation. (if they go over their limit) and are fatigued.
Much less punishing, but retaining the element of "do I push, is it worth it for this battle" decision.
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Falling unconscious from over exerting yourself isn’t necessarily silly by itself, it’s the locked at 8 hours that makes it silly.
It also doesn’t help that it’s the same no matter what your Curse is.
And death isn’t a non-option, there’s an 18th level feat to turn it on even.
Would it be reasonable to allow a hero Point to avoid the 8-hour penalty? Or would that be too easy of a way out?
Would it be reasonable to allow a hero Point to avoid the 8-hour penalty? Or would that be too easy of a way out?
If you're stingy with them, sure. Otherwise bonus spells for hero points is pretty generous.
I haven't seen a lot of discussion here about the middle ground though. Instead of asleep for 8 hours or dead, what about just going into Dying? And instead of being brought back with or without the Wounded condition, maybe come back with Doomed?
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Doomed is a nasty condition and already has the "the only way to lower this is by resting for 8 hours" so that would work great as a penalty for limit breaking. Since you're absolutely not going to want to walk around like that, but will if you have to.
How about "Casting a Revelation spell when your curse is at its worst gives you Doomed 1 if you are at your moderate curse and Doomed 2 when you're at your extreme curse."
Doomed for meddling with forces mortals are not meant to access seems more thematic than "really sleepy" anyway.
Designer
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We looked at several options for what happens when you push your curse too far. We really feel that it's more interesting to have this last-ditch desperate option (the "Hail Mary" as we've been calling it in-office) than a hard cap on what you can do, as it really speaks to the unorthodox nature of the oracle's power as double-edged sword. Getting knocked to 0 HP (and thus accruing wounded condition) was an option we talked about, as well as things like doomed or drained. (Admittedly, a block on [focus] spells entirely wasn't something we had considered, and that's also an interesting idea.)
We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.
nice,
yeah, I'm really in favor of losing the ability to refocus until you sleep/go unconscious.
this way the penalty isn't that you can't play anymore, it's your stuck at your worst curse option and can't cast any focus spells for the rest of the day, the system that enforced this condition on you is locked in place until you sleep.
you still have spells and the ability to perform actions or benefit from your curse, but it's a clear signal that your combat effectiveness is going to tank until the party finds a place to rest.
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Could maybe the backlash for limit-breaking be specific to the mystery? Like the battle oracle couldn't refocus if they limit break, since they can't manage to concentrate for 10 minutes, the life oracle would be doomed as they let a little too much life go through them, etc.
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We looked at several options for what happens when you push your curse too far. We really feel that it's more interesting to have this last-ditch desperate option (the "Hail Mary" as we've been calling it in-office) than a hard cap on what you can do, as it really speaks to the unorthodox nature of the oracle's power as double-edged sword. Getting knocked to 0 HP (and thus accruing wounded condition) was an option we talked about, as well as things like doomed or drained. (Admittedly, a block on [focus] spells entirely wasn't something we had considered, and that's also an interesting idea.)
We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.
A major issue is that none of the oracle revelations spells are a "hail mary". A hail mary means you win the game. that's one of the reason why I never bothered with it in my playtests so far, is that none of the revelation spells are worth that penalty.
one way you could fix it, is if you created a revelation spell that causes you to pass out when you cast it or is only available to cast it when your curse is at maximum effect, that way you can balance and still achieved your "hail mary" effect without it being game breaking.the problem with the block focus spells, is that it's just really hard cap, and that's its not really a penalty, it's just the same idea as other class. it unnecessarily complex for achieving the same aim, as any other focus spells, I dont think that is an ideal solution.
We looked at several options for what happens when you push your curse too far. We really feel that it's more interesting to have this last-ditch desperate option (the "Hail Mary" as we've been calling it in-office) than a hard cap on what you can do, as it really speaks to the unorthodox nature of the oracle's power as double-edged sword. Getting knocked to 0 HP (and thus accruing wounded condition) was an option we talked about, as well as things like doomed or drained. (Admittedly, a block on [focus] spells entirely wasn't something we had considered, and that's also an interesting idea.)
We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.
A major issue is that none of the oracle revelations spells are a "hail mary". A hail mary means you win the game. that's one of the reason why I never bothered with it in my playtests so far, is that none of the revelation spells are worth that penalty.
one way you could fix it, is if you created a revelation spell that causes you to pass out when you cast it or is only available to cast it when your curse is at maximum effect, that way you can balance and still achieved your "hail mary" effect without it being game breaking.the problem with the block focus spells, is that it's just really hard cap, and that's its not really a penalty, it's just the same idea as other class. it unnecessarily complex for achieving the same aim, as any other focus spells, I dont think that is an ideal solution.
That's kind of what I was feeling but couldn't really articulate.
The revelation spells don't feel quite significant enough to almost die to use. Maybe there should be a rider that boosts the spell effect when you're at maximum curse and likely to incur the penalty for using it? What about kicking it up another spell level (even if it's above your maximum or heightened to 10) for one last, seriously overclocked attempt that will cause serious ramifications for players to try?
the problem with the block focus spells, is that it's just really hard cap, and that's its not really a penalty, it's just the same idea as other class. it unnecessarily complex for achieving the same aim, as any other focus spells, I dont think that is an ideal solution.
except blocking focus spells isn't a hard cap(like for other classes), it's your done for the day, everyone else would be able to refocus. i'd say also stick them at the worst curse level too, it'll be pretty bad so they'll want to sleep, but they can still participate in gameplay while still being in a very dire state.
I have a lot to write about for oracle after the past week playtesting the class and mostly avoiding the forums, but yeah, as they are now, Oracle revelations are not really anything worth a hail mary in any of the revelations. I take a look at battle and all of them are... not worth going unconcious for at all? Giving your allies a bonus on initiative(Not you) and a small amount of temp HP, +2 to level for incapacitation(requires forknowledge players probably don't/shouldn't have?), and give yourself a feat for a minute. Even your domain options require you be concious to make benefit of them.
My commentary on the thread is that the current version of the oracle's curse makes sense to me, and I can't really make heads or tails of how Rysky's is supposed to work in terms of gameplay loop design. You start at the worst state and work you way down to minor/no curse? Unless the Revelation spells are REALLY stinking good, either I'd sit at max curse 24/7 with the current battle oracle(and max my pool asap despite not wanting to use them), or spend to none, and I'd make my choice out of combat, there's no real interesting play there, and if they're strong enough to be worth focusing to max curse and spending down often, it will likely be too strong. And that's before how it interacts with increasing focus pool outside of class. It has more moving parts for less interesting play decisions, even if it squeezes Oracle back into the mold of other casters.
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I think I have an idea, instead of making the revelation spells the Hail Mary, what if we give each curse an effect when it goes overboard? An omegaheal for life, some kind of flame crash for flame, and a big party buff for battle. You'd have full control over the Hail Mary effect, but after that you'd be feeling a lot of hurt.
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The potential issue with Hail Mary mechanics is that they incentivize nova play. Burn all your resources at one, wait for the next day to move on. The degree to which this is an issue will depend on the table, but that's true of pretty much everything we talk about here.
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yeah, guys we're not supposed to in general try to do a hail mary, i don't think mechanics for each curse are warranted. it's supposed to be a thing, that maybe you can do maybe because it'd be cool. not something the oracle is expected to do once per dungeon.
What kind of playstyle does each mystery/curse push you toward?
Battle: buff spells, weapon-based combat, possibly archer? shield a must
Flame: area-of-effect spells, ally buffs, produce flame fusillade
Life: stay close to allies, life link, self heal, focus on control
What other playstyles could future mysteries encourage?
yeah, guys we're not supposed to in general try to do a hail mary, i don't think mechanics for each curse are warranted. it's supposed to be a thing, that maybe you can do maybe because it'd be cool. not something the oracle is expected to do once per dungeon.
I'd like to read about the Oracle/Monk that managed a final ki blast to drop the boss and save the party.
The hail mary is not something that is going to happen for most oracles, but I think it should be absolutely possible for some niche builds.
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yeah, guys we're not supposed to in general try to do a hail mary, i don't think mechanics for each curse are warranted. it's supposed to be a thing, that maybe you can do maybe because it'd be cool. not something the oracle is expected to do once per dungeon.I'd like to read about the Oracle/Monk that managed a final ki blast to drop the boss and save the party.
The hail mary is not something that is going to happen for most oracles, but I think it should be absolutely possible for some niche builds.
Yes, but not something they should make some special overclock ability for each curse.
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I think this begs the question: Was the problem really the "fall unconscious for 8 hours" part, or was it that none of the focus spells were good for a hail mary? If they added an extra-powerful bonus when you limit break, would falling unconscious for 8 hours be acceptable?
What if the rest of the party is still able to continue on or the villains don't give the party time to sleep for 8 hours? Does the entire rest of the party (and gaming group) become beholden to the sleeping Oracle, including the GM? Or does the rest of the gaming group carry on by themselves and tell the Oracle player "we're not waiting for you." Forcing such a choice is VERY bad game design! Heck, even if they were not unconscious, giving the Oracle player some massive hindrance when he's maybe the party healer is a bad choice.
That's why I'd say give the Oracle his focus points back, and maybe allow him to push a bit further by increasing his curse, but not allow him to get to the point he knocks himself out or the curse becomes unbearable. There is no rule in the CRB like "a wizard can use a spell even when he has no slots left. But if he does so, he knocks himself out for 8 hours." And I'm glad there isn't. Don't put something like that in the APG!
If the curse goes back to starting at the worst level and slowly getting easier as you level, I can guarantee that I'll never play it, and neither will my wife (who loves spontaneous casters, and divine casters).
It's why neither of us ever played Oracles in PF1.
I feel this way too (though my spouse, who loves Oracles and plays them constantly, does not). I "solved" the problem for my only Oracle character by simply dropping all rules that said the curse got better over time: she could only see 30' at campaign start, and could only see 30' at campaign end. She did get Darkvision and whatnot, but only to 30'. I was not willing to give up the flavor as the character increased in levels.
Speaking only for myself, I think I'd avoid the proposed playtest Oracle, because it has a lot of mechanical complexity (varying curse level over the day) which it would be tempting to avoid by never using the Revelations, but then I'm playing the wrong class and should have gone cleric or sorcerer.
I can't believe that killing and the rezing the oracle is being seriously considered as a way to bypass the curse.
Many years ago I was a bystander to a high-level houseruled AD&D game where that was the standard response to long-lasting stun and similar debilitating effects. Can't cure it? Kill and resurrect.
The players were pretty good roleplayers, and the PCs were all more or less insane by that point, which makes sense to me.
All things considered, I would still like to see more feats to give you buffs for being at more advanced stages of your curse.
The nova effect is a tough one. I would rather just have a mechanic that caused Oracle to inflict unavoidable damage to themselves or saves vs other debuffs for continuing to cast revelations at max curse. The advantages to this are you don't need a hail mary ability. It still increases the risk or resources required to manage the curse so there is an ongoing cost but there is no awful 8hrs of non-game time.
I would be happy with each time you cast a revelation spell while at your max curse level you need to make a severe difficulty Will save of be stupefied 2 or similar (conditions could be based on curse or just whatever is a good balance).
Allows oracles to push limits, allows a bit of a risk/reward on a die roll and shouldn't ever put a 8hrs of no play decision on a player or inflict it on a group.
If we consider the Hail Mary something that should considerably happen more than once in an adventure in some case, one could have the first time you hit that mark, it knocks you out and you begin a 10 minute rest (starting in combat). When you wake, you are back at your prior curse level, but also have doomed 1. Then technically, if you elevate your curse to that level and you have the doomed condition, you are instead passed out until you rest 8 hours.
That way the first time you push yourself, it takes you out for the encounter, not for the rest of the day. The second time, if you try it again, then you are really taken out of play for a while.
Or... what if while 'out of commission' they player is allowed to preform a 'spiritual' aid action once per their turn, to someone within 30' of the unconscious body. This could allow the oracle to continue to play, albeit extremely limited in action choice.
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One thing that might make the "Hail Mary" option more appealing is if curses were a better mixture of "power-ups" and "inconveniences". Like if every level of the curse made you more powerful in one way (like the fast healing the battle curse gives you) and also weakened in a separate way.
If you did this where every level of every curse is a mixture of positives and negatives, you could make the limit break option a considerable boost, and a nasty negative condition.
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Contributor
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One thing that might make the "Hail Mary" option more appealing is if curses were a better mixture of "power-ups" and "inconveniences". Like if every level of the curse made you more powerful in one way (like the fast healing the battle curse gives you) and also weakened in a separate way.
If you did this where every level of every curse is a mixture of positives and negatives, you could make the limit break option a considerable boost, and a nasty negative condition.
I think this is a very cool idea, if sadly a little wordcount-hungry, and I like the dynamism it adds to the whole "cursed" thing. ^_^
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One thing that might make the "Hail Mary" option more appealing is if curses were a better mixture of "power-ups" and "inconveniences". Like if every level of the curse made you more powerful in one way (like the fast healing the battle curse gives you) and also weakened in a separate way.
If you did this where every level of every curse is a mixture of positives and negatives, you could make the limit break option a considerable boost, and a nasty negative condition.
This sounds really cool!
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Identifying the curse with the mystery is something I don't like. All oracles with the same mystery bear the same curse. This is the ANTITHESIS of versatility. I loved the versatility in P1's oracle.
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Guys, this is the same conversation as the houserules to make wands not break when you overuse them. You don't want to make the "Hail Mary" something that happens all the time, which is what for example changing it to an HP cost would do (that could be overcharging multiple times per combat easily). It's specifically supposed to be a last-ditch thing that you do when the party will die unless you spend this last bit of effort. It's supposed to be a really painful choice (nobody wants to lose their magic items, nobody wants to go unconscious and deal with the risks that entails). The penalties need to stay high enough that the only time you would ever consider this is if one or more people are dying otherwise.
The flip side of that is, the Hail Mary needs to actually prevent the person(s) from dying! So we need a combat-changing effect to occur which can swing the tides of a bad fight, but come at a terrible price.
Now, maybe unconscious isn't the right penalty, and/or one focus spell with a meh effect isn't the right effect. Personally I think the effect just needs to be stronger, and any penalty should be as devastating as falling unconscious for 8 hours (sever your magical connection until next rest, so no spells or focus spells but still have curse?), so that we keep with the idea of a last-ditch move and it isn't seen as just another resource to spend each combat.