Oracle too player / party unfriendly?


Oracle Playtest

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Silver Crusade

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So lots of new neat stuff, but the more I look over the more ehhhh moments I'm having.

Revelation Spells wrote:


You can cast revelation spells, which are a type of focus spell. Though it normally costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, as an oracle, you do not have a focus pool and can never gain one by any means, even if you take a feat that would grant you Focus Points or a focus pool. Instead, you cast revelation spells, or other focus spells you learn, by drawing upon the power of your mystery, which incurs the effects of your oracular curse (see below).
Focus spells are automatically heightened to half your level rounded up. Focus spells don’t require spell slots, and you can’t cast them using spell slots (see Divine Spellcasting on page 14). Certain feats can give you more focus spells. The full rules for focus spells appear on page 300 of the Core Rulebook.
You learn two revelation spells at 1st level. The first is an initial revelation spell determined by your mystery. The second is an initial domain spell you select from one of the domains associated with your mystery, which you can cast as a revelation spell.

I don't foresee this playing nicely with multiclassing, nor people wanting to play Oracles or wanting to multiclass with them liking that.

Oracular Curse wrote:


[1]An oracle draws power from multiple deities, each with their own alignments, agendas, domains, and anathemas. [2]The inevitable conflict between these different sources places incredible stress on your body, manifesting as a supernatural curse whenever you cast revelation spells. The more revelation spells you cast, the worse the effects of your curse, but these increasingly conflicting energies also provide you with divine benefits.
The specific effects of your curse are tied to your mystery, but all curses follow the same progression. A curse starts with a minor effect and progresses to a moderate effect. At higher levels, you can grow to withstand your curse’s major and even extreme effects.
[3]The first time after your daily preparations that you complete the Cast a Spell activity for a revelation spell, your minor curse manifests. Once your minor curse has manifested, it remains in effect until the next time you rest for 8 hours and make your daily preparations. If you cast a revelation spell while your minor curse is in effect, you progress to the moderate curse effect immediately after you finish Casting the Spell. This effect is in addition to that of your minor curse. [4]You can reduce the severity of your curse from moderate (or worse) to minor by spending 10 minutes using the Refocus activity (Core Rulebook 300) to mentally reconcile the conflicting demands of your mystery and find common ground between them. While your curse is active, you can’t mitigate, reduce, or remove its effects by any other means; for example, while you are slowed 1 from your extreme curse, you couldn’t benefit from an effect that normally cancels or counteracts the slowed condition.
[5]Drawing upon your mystery’s power while your curse is at its worst takes a terrible toll on your body. Immediately after casting a revelation spell while under the worst effects of your curse that you can currently handle, you are overwhelmed by your curse. [6]You fall unconscious and can’t be awoken by any means for 8 hours, after which you awaken naturally and can make your daily preparations normally.

1) Does it have to be from deities? Can't it be from the planes themselves? Or other sources?

2) So the gods are idiots.

3) minor thing, but why not "after casting a Revelation spell"?

4) I don't care for this for how super specific it makes the flavor of the Oracle. "I have to play mediator for a bunch of jackesses" is a neat theme, I don't like it being the only theme.

5) What does "at it's worst" even mean?

6) I REALLY do not like this. I like thematic climatic sacrificial abilities (Champion of Gwynharwyf and Frenzied Berserker were my favourites Prestige Classes in 3.5, and I love playing Barbarians in all recent editions). Things that damage or kill you for the right, desperate payoff are awesome, I live for that s!~&.

Death is unpleasant because you lose your character most likely, the second most unpleasant experience is showing up to play and not being able to. "Okay since you did this your character is still alive, you're just not allowed to play" is not a good experience by any measure.

Overclocking, good.

Dying, not good but okay.

Telling the player they're not allowed to play even though they didn't do anything wrong, not okay.

Silver Crusade

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For a succinct frame of comparison, I like the 18th level Blaze of Revelation feat, that basically lets you overclock your overclock and it has a chance of outright killing you, more than the base take you out of the game mechanic.


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Erm, spending so many focus points you pass out IS doing something wrong. All that is is a flavorful way to impart a hard cap on your focus usage, you're never supposed to actually do it for anything other than a Hail Mary at the end of the session.

Silver Crusade

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You don't get Focus Points though, and the cap of how many you can cast is not very high (is "worst" spelled out anywhere?).

And that's without getting into the specific curses themselves, like Life.


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Rysky wrote:

You don't get Focus Points though, and the cap of how many you can cast is not very high (is "worst" spelled out anywhere?).

And that's without getting into the specific curses themselves, like Life.

Worst is moderate until 11th, major until 17th, and extreme through 20.

You are essentially getting an extra focus point level 1-10, another focus point at 11th and a free "recharge two at once" feat, and fourth focus point at 17th with a free "recharge three at once" feat.


Advancing your curse, whatever, you knew what I meant. I will admit that Life may be more punitive than it needs to be but I really don't think pushing for infinite focus spells if you can win a dice roll is helpful.


"Worst" in this case refers to the level of the curse effect you can take at your current level. So until level 11 when you get the Major Curse class feature, the worst curse level you can suffer is the moderate curse effect. You can cast a revelation spell and gain the minor curse. If you cast another revelation spell that day, you then gain the moderate curse as well. You can then choose to refocus for 10 minutes to lower it back to the minor effect. If you do not do this, the next time you cast a revelation spell, you fall unconscious.
At level 11 (and again at 17) you basically get to cast another spell before falling unconscious in exchange for a worse penalty. But as it reads it seems you can always take the time to refocus and bring it back to the minor curse, even if you are currently affected by major curse.

Silver Crusade

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Okay that alleviates that somewhat.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Advancing your curse, whatever, you knew what I meant. I will admit that Life may be more punitive than it needs to be but I really don't think pushing for infinite focus spells if you can win a dice roll is helpful.

I'm not pushing for that?

I'm not really fond of Revelation spells being Focus spells except they aren't but they are deal going on.


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An Oracle really shouldn't be getting their power from "multiple gods" (unless that's what the player wants). They should be getting their power from "Where the gods get that same power."

Like Domains exist as things separate from Deities (Lamashtu took the Beast Domain from Curchanus, for example). So Divine power need not come from a divinity. Accessing divine power through a deity is just the safest way to do it, but being an oracle is not about safety.

But I don't think the multiclassing thing is a big deal since there's lots of ways to MC that don't involve gaining focus spells.

Silver Crusade

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True, I was just pointing how it doesn't play nice with that avenue.

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Rysky wrote:
1) Does it have to be from deities? Can't it be from the planes themselves? Or other sources?

It might be worth reconsidering the wording, to be sure, but I would point you toward the description of the battle mystery:

Quote:
you might find power in the unending conflict between the armies of Heaven and Hell or the Elemental Planes, the Outer Gods, or even the collective spirits of those who fought in wars over the ages.
Rysky wrote:
2) So the gods are idiots.

I don't see anything that suggests that the oracle's relationship to the gods is intentional on the gods' part.

Silver Crusade

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1) Ah, glad to see that.

2) *double reads*

Ah, I hadn't noticed that, so everything is reversed this go around. Meaning all Oracles are of questionable sanity...

Dark Archive

Yeah, it seems like this time that oracle powers aren't technically granted by gods directly(in same way clerics are) and more that oracles are able to see whatever powers gods have domains over(though that ability might still be granted by a god :p Kinda depends what you want for your character) and that makes them kinda fit the "mad oracle" trope more.

And yeah, its interesting that oracles might be fully powered by plane itself instead of gods or something like "You might draw power from the collective vitality of the world’s living creatures,"

...I could completely see oracle mystery based on psyche where one of suggested flavor option is collective consciousness :P

But yeah, it seems they opened oracle flavor so that you can have ability granted either by gods, cosmic accident or by purposely training yourself to open yourself for the "truth".

Silver Crusade

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Well at the moment they locked Oracle flavor, with their opener and the text for Refocus, the Battle Mystery currently being an exception.

Dark Archive

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It appears to be more... Mismatch(is this correct word?) type situation?

Like opening text frames it as being about collection of gods, but all of mysteries listed lists "planar origin, pantheon origin, philosophical/metaphysical origin".

The one for battle was already listed, but for flames its "You might revere this primal essence, you might siphon power from the Elemental Plane of Fire, or you might venerate a collection of deities including" and for life its "You might draw power from the collective vitality of the world’s living creatures, hold some thread of connection to the Positive Energy Plane, or revere a collection of deities including"

It kinda feels like opening text flavor was written with different intent than mysteries?

Silver Crusade

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Hmmm *nods*


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the flavor seems to makes perfect sense for the game world. first edition oracles didnt really make any sense given how the world was constructed.

I dont mind the whole power comes at great cost concept. However I dont think the cost match up correctly.

the life curse in particularly seems very counterproductive. the life curse makes way more sense to me mechanically for the battle revelation.


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ikarinokami wrote:
the life curse in particularly seems very counterproductive. the life curse makes way more sense to me mechanically for the battle revelation.

Oh, I like this idea. I'm not too keen on the current Battle curse - it'd be a lot more interesting if it had some sort of bladethirst mechanic where you damage yourself every round but can heal yourself for a greater amount than the damage every round you strike with a weapon.

Dataphiles

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I think it's a case of too much stick and not enough carrot for some of these curses.


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The oracle's focus spells look like they should be more potent than the focus spells that other classes can cast just by spending focus points. Since some of them (the domain spells) are by definition shared with the cleric class, maybe oracles should get some sort of metamagic freely applied to these spells when they cast them?


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I feel like I'd prefer if the Oracle had a normal Focus pool and Refocusing but with the option to worsen their Curse to gain additional Focus points during the day, perhaps as an Action?. Maybe this would be considered too powerful when compared to something like the Druid, but I find the Mysteries aren't adding enough for their Focus spells/Curses to be so debilitating. There are the later feats that give once per day "free" Revelation spells, but these are just essentially increasing the Focus pool by 1. I think a system like this might play better with Multiclassing, as well.


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Rysky wrote:
Well at the moment they locked Oracle flavor, with their opener and the text for Refocus, the Battle Mystery currently being an exception.

This is especially concerning to me since the flavor locked Paladin (eventually Champion) was never corrected in the playtest.

Oracles should be able to be people with absolutely no relationship with a deity, who nonetheless access divine power. The curse shouldn't be because you have to resolve conflicting deity portfolios, but because you're accessing the fundamental building blocks of creation as a mere mortal without anything to protect you from the backlash.

Like I consider the following concepts essential to represent with the oracle:
1) Someone who worships a bunch of gods
2) Someone whose religious practice does not involve gods (Rivethun, Sangpotshi, Shamanism, Ancestor Worship, etc.)
3) Someone who just had this happen to them and never asked for it and would have preferred it had not happened.


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It seems like the existence of the divine sorcerer puts a fork in the idea that accessing divine power without divine intervention is inherently dangerous in PF2 (honestly that should be more occult magic's gimmick anyway). It seems like it is more about who opens the faucet of power in the first place rather than who controls how fast the power comes out of it....


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Mechagamera wrote:
It seems like the existence of the divine sorcerer puts a fork in the idea that accessing divine power without divine intervention is inherently dangerous in PF2 (honestly that should be more occult magic's gimmick anyway). It seems like it is more about who opens the faucet of power in the first place rather than who controls how fast the power comes out of it....

Well, the divine sorcerer is accessing divine power through their blood which has a built in angelic/infernal/whatever access keys, so it's safe for them.

The infernal sorcerer can access the "fire" domain because to the fire domain sees them as a devil, and there is a way that devils get flame powers, but not too much flame power. The oracle is someone who is accessing the fire domain with no built in access or protections.

Scarab Sages

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Chetna Wavari wrote:
I think it's a case of too much stick and not enough carrot for some of these curses.

Absolutely agree with you.


PossibleCabbage wrote:


Oracles should be able to be people with absolutely no relationship with a deity, who nonetheless access divine power.

I mean, you can do that. The oracle as written specifically highlights these options in the descriptions of the Mysteries.


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Squiggit wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:


Oracles should be able to be people with absolutely no relationship with a deity, who nonetheless access divine power.
I mean, you can do that. The oracle as written specifically highlights these options in the descriptions of the Mysteries.

I think the Oracular Curse flavor text might need a rewrite since "An oracle draws power from multiple deities" sort of makes it clear that you're still getting your fire powers from gods, you're just getting them from Sarenrae *and* Asmodeus, instead of getting them from where Sarenrae and Asmodeus get theirs.


Yeah, the curse text could be better. If you skip down to the Flame mystery description itself though, it highlights worshipping the primal essence of flame or siphoning power directly from the plane of fire as viable power sources too in addition to being directly empowered by a god.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Well at the moment they locked Oracle flavor, with their opener and the text for Refocus, the Battle Mystery currently being an exception.

This is especially concerning to me since the flavor locked Paladin (eventually Champion) was never corrected in the playtest.

Oracles should be able to be people with absolutely no relationship with a deity, who nonetheless access divine power. The curse shouldn't be because you have to resolve conflicting deity portfolios, but because you're accessing the fundamental building blocks of creation as a mere mortal without anything to protect you from the backlash.

Like I consider the following concepts essential to represent with the oracle:
1) Someone who worships a bunch of gods
2) Someone whose religious practice does not involve gods (Rivethun, Sangpotshi, Shamanism, Ancestor Worship, etc.)
3) Someone who just had this happen to them and never asked for it and would have preferred it had not happened.

Cabbage has got it, with their conception of having nothing to protect you from the backlash, that's how you fix the Oracle's current flavor- the Oracle might follow Gods, or a non gods religion, but their spell casting is that of a mortal facing the raw energy of creation.


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I didn't catch the bit about there being no focus pool and no mechanic to ever get one. I agree that it limits multiclassing too much. I know that one of the goals is to cut down on the number of pools that players have to juggle. Most multiclassing characters have to worry about two. However, the cleric/alchemist has to juggle three, so there is precedent.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Rysky wrote:
Quote:
[2]The inevitable conflict between these different sources places incredible stress on your body, manifesting as a supernatural curse whenever you cast revelation spells. The more revelation spells you cast, the worse the effects of your curse, but these increasingly conflicting energies also provide you with divine benefits.
So the gods are idiots.

One of the things we talked about in the office regarding how this might manifest and what might cause it is the interaction between all those gods and their anathemas. For example, a Battle oracle could be an adherent of the Godclaw, empowered with all of their lawful might, but it's almost impossible for someone to simultaneously adhere to the edicts and anathema of Abadar, Asmodeus, Iomedae, Irori, and Torag. So while the oracle can draw on the power of the entire Godclaw, the more they pull on that power the more they also pull in the conflicting pieces of the pantheon which can put immense physical, mental, and/or spiritual strain on them.

Silver Crusade

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Michael Sayre wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Quote:
[2]The inevitable conflict between these different sources places incredible stress on your body, manifesting as a supernatural curse whenever you cast revelation spells. The more revelation spells you cast, the worse the effects of your curse, but these increasingly conflicting energies also provide you with divine benefits.
So the gods are idiots.
One of the things we talked about in the office regarding how this might manifest and what might cause it is the interaction between all those gods and their anathemas. For example, a Battle oracle could be an adherent of the Godclaw, empowered with all of their lawful might, but it's almost impossible for someone to simultaneously adhere to the edicts and anathema of Abadar, Asmodeus, Iomedae, Irori, and Torag. So while the oracle can draw on the power of the entire Godclaw, the more they pull on that power the more they also pull in the conflicting pieces of the pantheon which can put immense physical, mental, and/or spiritual strain on them.

*nods*

So the Gods aren’t idiots, Oracles are just out of their minds.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Rysky wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Quote:
[2]The inevitable conflict between these different sources places incredible stress on your body, manifesting as a supernatural curse whenever you cast revelation spells. The more revelation spells you cast, the worse the effects of your curse, but these increasingly conflicting energies also provide you with divine benefits.
So the gods are idiots.
One of the things we talked about in the office regarding how this might manifest and what might cause it is the interaction between all those gods and their anathemas. For example, a Battle oracle could be an adherent of the Godclaw, empowered with all of their lawful might, but it's almost impossible for someone to simultaneously adhere to the edicts and anathema of Abadar, Asmodeus, Iomedae, Irori, and Torag. So while the oracle can draw on the power of the entire Godclaw, the more they pull on that power the more they also pull in the conflicting pieces of the pantheon which can put immense physical, mental, and/or spiritual strain on them.

*nods*

So the Gods aren’t idiots, Oracles are just out of their minds.

Oracle: Hey, fighter! Want to see me do something really cool?

Fighter: Is this going to like, melt your body?

Oracle: Probably a little.

Fighter: Then yeah, obviously I want to see this.

Sovereign Court

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Michael Sayre wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Quote:
[2]The inevitable conflict between these different sources places incredible stress on your body, manifesting as a supernatural curse whenever you cast revelation spells. The more revelation spells you cast, the worse the effects of your curse, but these increasingly conflicting energies also provide you with divine benefits.
So the gods are idiots.
One of the things we talked about in the office regarding how this might manifest and what might cause it is the interaction between all those gods and their anathemas. For example, a Battle oracle could be an adherent of the Godclaw, empowered with all of their lawful might, but it's almost impossible for someone to simultaneously adhere to the edicts and anathema of Abadar, Asmodeus, Iomedae, Irori, and Torag. So while the oracle can draw on the power of the entire Godclaw, the more they pull on that power the more they also pull in the conflicting pieces of the pantheon which can put immense physical, mental, and/or spiritual strain on them.

*nods*

So the Gods aren’t idiots, Oracles are just out of their minds.

Oracle: Hey, fighter! Want to see me do something really cool?

Fighter: Is this going to like, melt your body?

Oracle: Probably a little.

Fighter: Then yeah, obviously I want to see this.

Clinton Boomer would be proud. ^_^

Silver Crusade

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Neat.

Not really a fan since the flavor and makeup are completely different than Oracles in P1 and thus people can't transfer their old Oracles over since the flavor functions so completely differently, night and day. Still cool though.

Just not Oracles.

More helpful: let Oracles that are cursed still exist in P2


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Rysky wrote:


Not really a fan since the flavor and makeup are completely different than Oracles in P1 and thus people can't transfer their old Oracles over since the flavor functions so completely differently, night and day. Still cool though.

Have to disagree. The themes and function are really similar. It's just that Curse is no longer an abstract class feature kind of tacked on and now interacts directly with your Mystery.


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The Oracle was probably my favorite class in PF1. Looking at the new class as presented, I just don't see the point.

There are no weapon or armor skills beyond simple weapons unless you're a battle oracle. The revelations seem to be designed to allow greater impact on the way you play as opposed to the original, but take out any kind of choice. Spell Repertoire seems to be saying "Hey we didn't want to create another damn chart."

My biggest problem are the spell slots. They are spontaneous casters that are given the same number of spells as prepared casters. Why play this class when you get much better performance out of a divine sorcerer without having to worry about revelations?

In PF1 the Life Oracle could easily meet or even surpass a healing cleric. Now it's the other way around.

Are Oracles using domains now?

Silver Crusade

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Squiggit wrote:
Rysky wrote:


Not really a fan since the flavor and makeup are completely different than Oracles in P1 and thus people can't transfer their old Oracles over since the flavor functions so completely differently, night and day. Still cool though.
Have to disagree. The themes and function are really similar. It's just that Curse is no longer an abstract class feature kind of tacked on and now interacts directly with your Mystery.

Oracles in P1 were cursed with their power, they didn't get a say in it.

P2 Oracles willingly seeks out and takes that power and it tears them apart.

Very different things.


The flavor test for PF2 oracles says that some see their condition as a curse from the gods, so it sounds like you can play it either way.

Silver Crusade

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I would like that made more explicit and clarified if it is kept, since the Mysteries also call not being powered by the gods, in conflict with the Class itself saying so.


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Rysky wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Rysky wrote:


Not really a fan since the flavor and makeup are completely different than Oracles in P1 and thus people can't transfer their old Oracles over since the flavor functions so completely differently, night and day. Still cool though.
Have to disagree. The themes and function are really similar. It's just that Curse is no longer an abstract class feature kind of tacked on and now interacts directly with your Mystery.

Oracles in P1 were cursed with their power, they didn't get a say in it.

P2 Oracles willingly seeks out and takes that power and it tears them apart.

Very different things.

Sadly I kind of agree with this. Other than flavour Oracle doesn't really feel worth it over a sorcerer (Flame/elemental) or cleric (life mystery). Battle Oracles are a maybe but I feel I can achieve most of that with a cleric/bard dip or even a celestial sorc. The drawbacks don't offer enough bang for buck. The reward is kind of meh compared to the draw back and the class lacking some other survival mechanism doesn't really speak to me.

I loved the PF1 Oracle. I like that Mysteries are tied to Curses, I would like a looser connection so a mystery had a range of possible curses with just some mystery flavour but by coupling them the risk/reward of a given mystery/curse is easier to balance.

Removing the focus pool concept hurts, I would rather they had a focus pool and suffered the curse if they overspent it. That would give me more options, counter the lower number of spells known/cast.

Right now the mechanic isn't advantageous over normal focus pool, its strictly worse. Instead of having upto 3 focus points I have 3 stages. Once I hit stage 1 for the day I suffer a drawback I can't get rid of until the next day. Additionally were other classes can spec to get 3 focus points back between every battle, I effectively as an oracle can only ever get 2 focus back. This isn't a good trade.

My suggestion is keep the focus pool and allow them to overspend their points which causes the curse to increase. This does mean that at the start of a fight they could technically have 6 focus points to play with (3 + 1 for each curse stage). To balance just remove the ability to reduce curse stage by refocusing so once you have hit moderate stage you can't reduce it back until the next rest.

I would also like to see more class feats that gave you buffs for when you do activate your curse. This plays into the risk/reward and buffing up concept. Also allows for more always active (while suffering the curse) abilities that some of the revelations in PF1 had (like Lure of the heavens). I know this is somewhat baked into the curse but I would like an option to capitalise on that, in for a penny in for a pound.

I like the idea that as the day goes on and I draw more of my power I get more severe and good and bad effects. Giving me the ability to someone customise of choose some of the good effects would give me as a player a lot more agency on how my character develops, how much I choose to embrace the curse, how I differ from other oracles with the same mystery.

Keeping the focus pool also helps with multi classing without having to maintain separate pools. Having 'while under the effects of the curse' buff feats allows more potential for good feat choices for multiclass concept that dip into oracle. A raging barbarian with flame mystery that runs into battle virtually naked trusting the fires to protect him. A wizard oracle cursed with visions (lore mystery) that gains insights or better recall knowledge while speaking in tongues or blinded by visions could get an AC insight type bonus. A fighter with bones mystery could even go somewhat deathknight ish.

I feel removing focus points break multiclassing paradigm with them. Allowing more baked in risk/reward with focus points is a plus and helps counter the lower number of spells (and steps less on sorcs having the most spells).

Dark Archive

I think the opening chapter's flavor could be clearer yeah.

As I said earlier, it seems flavor wise there are supposed to be three types of oracles: Ones who sought the power themselves, ones who have it by some sort of freak mutant connection to higher powers and whom was granted the power to see by one or more gods whether they wanted it or not.

The opening chapter doesn't really explain why oracles powered by philosophies or planes are cursed.

I do like ideas of three types of connections to mysteries(and that character could have gained the connection through different methods), and I never really liked 1e oracle flavor because it was confusing and rarely brought up what it meant in universe, but the opening entry should be less confusing about what oracles are.


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Not super interested in a character who kicks their own ass for minimal benefits. Reading through I figured that revelation spells would be very powerful as a balance, but they're not. Like someone said above-- too much stick, not enough carrot.

The Battle Oracle's focus spell being +2 to saves and his curse giving him a -2 to saves means you might just blow a focus spell not to be crit because of your penalty, which is hilarious. Take 38 damage anyways and gain fast healing 4. Awesome no-prize. Better run up and ineffectively melee that guy instead of healing or you'll keep your -2 to AC and saves, primary caster.

Flames oracle is real weird. Line of Fire and Effect are just weird suggestions not hard rules, but it's supposed to be "difficult or impossible" to target creatures undetected by you. So that Moderate curse means you have to put the Fireball from Divine Element... exactly where it could always hit you since it must be within 30 feet-- maybe? Either way it doesn't seem great. Because creatures are undetected-- does that mean that effects with the auditory trait don't carry over? It would call out if they were visually undetected, right? See-- just a lot of weird questions.

I don't even want to talk about the life oracle. I never played one but wow that seems real uncomfortable to play as. "Sorry, I can't heal you. If I do I'll go unconscious and I'll also heal all of the enemies. Yeah, I know you're at 15 hp and a cleric could bomb you for 5d8+40 right now, but mistakes were made!"

Sad that I can't remake my clouded vision Battle Oracle. The biggest draw for me to Oracle was that your disability was also your secret strength and as you got stronger it slowly stopped being a disability entirely. These new curses are the opposite of that. These curses start as a pain and get worse and worse...

Not a fan. Could you tell?


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Ice Titan wrote:

Not super interested in a character who kicks their own ass for minimal benefits. Reading through I figured that revelation spells would be very powerful as a balance, but they're not. Like someone said above-- too much stick, not enough carrot.

I’m also not a fan of having the curses and mysteries tethered together. Loses a ton of the flexibility the 1e version had. I get we only have a few choices here for testing purposes, but yikes they don’t seem all that player friendly or fun to play. Definitely disappointed.

Dark Archive

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Honestly part of why I prefer curses and mysteries tethered together IS that people usually just avoided the actually hard to deal with curses in 1e and took only the easy to deal with ones <_<

Flame mystery revelation spells at least deal lot of damage and are targeted within 30 feet range(and its curse does have benefits for pc unlike life mystery where positive just makes the negative even worse. At moderate curse you also get concealment from enemy if I didn't read or remember wrong). Battle mystery curse isn't also as bad since penalty at least for some of levels goes away as long you keep attacking.

Paizo Employee Designer

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I'm seeing and hearing what you're saying here, folks! This is one of the areas where we made the biggest changes and need the most input to get it right. Some of the questions on the survey will speak to this directly, and it's going to be really important for us to get impressions from gameplay experience as well as from readthroughs. I want to really encourage y'all to build some oracles and run them through a few sessions to get us that feedback, so we have that in addition to the great convo that's happening here.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Honestly part of why I prefer curses and mysteries tethered together IS that people usually just avoided the actually hard to deal with curses in 1e and took only the easy to deal with ones <_<

The PF1 curses were not nearly exciting enough to ever convince me to take any of the truly inconvenient ones. People complaining about too much stick with too little carrot here is almost laughable next to some of the curses that existed in the prior edition (how would you like a 1/5 chance of failing almost any spell on your list with Wolfscarred Face and getting a bad bite attack for your troubles)?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I’m not completely opposed to Mysteries and Curses being linked, i just don’t want that to be all of them.

As of now I can’t play my Life Oracle in P2, who had the Blackened Arms Curse.


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I think Curses and Mysteries should be somewhat linked, but I think "everyone with this mystery has this curse" is a bit too far.

Instead, I think each mystery should come with a subset of curses attached to that mystery, like Flames could have "Flames and Smoke cloud your vision" or "your body becomes shriveled and charred as though you were burned" as options.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Blackened was admittedly the biggest no-curse for maximum benefit in PF1. But some of them were a bit much; such as, yes, wolfscarred face, which was really hard to justify unless you were Dual-Cursed and deaf, and eventually got its lunch completely eaten (no pun intended) by the hunger curse.

In any case, add me to the "don't link curses and mysteries" list, or at least (as the cabbage above says) give us a number of options per mystery.

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