Blatantly ripping off Nick's thread, but Im curious what people think on this one.
I'll admit, my investigators were all daring sleuths, so I have little expierience in intergrating alchemy into the class. So I wonder how others think alchemy will become a part of a class that isn't the alchemist. Will it get a similar alchemy pool, but no access to certain alchemical items?
How will inspiration fit in? Having an alchemy pool on top of an inspiration pool strikes me as too many pools for PF2, so what might happen here? Combine them? Turn one or the other into focus? I'm guessing inspiration will be a status bonus if it remains distinct from alchemy, but i can see it becoming an item bonus if they combine them.
I enjoyed my daring sleuths, so I hope inspiration applies to a wide variety of skills. All of them, really.
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My assumption is that yes, they'll get a similar Alchemy pool, but no Quick Alchemy. I think that's extraordinarily likely.
And I expect Inspiration to apply to all Skills, with one use adding a flat bonus to one Skill (or possibly other applicable roll), and think it very well might be combined with the Infused Reagents thing from Alchemist. If they do this, I would indeed expect that the bonus would be an item bonus.
I also expect them to, Inspiration aside, have better Skill stuff than most existing Classes, though less than the Rogue.
I expect them to have effectively-skill-adding abilities like the bards Bardic Lore or Versatile Performance but tailored to the Investigator. Like use Perception for some recall knowledge applications (forensics).
I read an idea here on the boards that mentioned giving them the ability to use some Exploration tactics in Encounter mode. While I don't expect that to happen I find this idea really cool and unique. Let them Investigate, Track and Gather Information mid-combat because they are so cool-headed.
Disclaimer: I've never played a PF1 Investigator, nor seen anyone playing one. The class never appealed to me in any way and while I have looked at it multiple times, I'm not extremely familiar with it and postig this from what I remember.
If it does come with alchemy, it should probably be limited to non-mutagen Eilxirs, poisons and alchemical tools. So no mutagens or bombs.
I could see the investigator gettin a circumstance bonus to Perception when rolled to Sense Motive. And speaking of Perception, I fully expect Legendary proficiency for that, probably at level 15, like the ranger. And maybe an option to make Perception Int-based?
The Inspiration stuff seems hard to do in PF2 since every +1 is much more impactful than in PF1. Turning it into a Focus Power would destroy the non-magic flavor of the class. So maybe put it on a cooldown? Like 1 hour at level 1 and later reduced by class features or feats?
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Disclaimer: I've never played a PF1 Investigator, nor seen anyone playing one. The class never appealed to me in any way and while I have looked at it multiple times, I'm not extremely familiar with it and postig this from what I remember.
If we're doing disclaimers, I suppose I should note that Investigator was probably my favorite PF1 Class (well, tied with Bard, anyway), and that one of my longer running characters I actually got to play (I usually GM) was an Investigator I took from 1st to 10th level before the game ended.
If it does come with alchemy, it should probably be limited to non-mutagen Eilxirs, poisons and alchemical tools. So no mutagens or bombs.
Mutagens are a huge skill buff in PF2, and were available to Investigators in PF1 (and used by them quite often). Making them unavailable would be a bad mistake.
Bombs are less essential, but trying to restrict them from making such things would be weird (since anyone with Alchemical Crafting can do it) and seems unnecessary. Heck, you could leave them without Bomb Proficiency and that would do it.
The Inspiration stuff seems hard to do in PF2 since every +1 is much more impactful than in PF1. Turning it into a Focus Power would destroy the non-magic flavor of the class. So maybe put it on a cooldown? Like 1 hour at level 1 and later reduced by class features or feats?
Being able to spend points to get a Heroism equivalent bonus (or thereabouts) on a single roll won't break anything. Bards can already do all that for 10 minutes a pop (as can Clerics).
Being able to do on-command skill bonuses is definitely part of the schtick and one that doesn't break PF2 at all.
The Inspiration stuff seems hard to do in PF2 since every +1 is much more impactful than in PF1. Turning it into a Focus Power would destroy the non-magic flavor of the class. So maybe put it on a cooldown? Like 1 hour at level 1 and later reduced by class features or feats?
I think we’ll be fine regarding non magic focus. I assume that Swashbucklers, who are coming in at the same time, will get grit/panache back, and that will be a non magic version of focus. Either the grit pool will run parallel to focus, or some focus powers will get a “grit” trait to designate them as non magical but similar enough in practice to just use the same pool.
I can see benefits to either direction, and am curious how it will land. But whatever happens, I assume Inspiration will work exactly the same (and be added to the grit pool even if grit abilities are kept distinct from focus).
My assumption is that yes, they'll get a similar Alchemy pool, but no Quick Alchemy. I think that's extraordinarily likely.
I think you’re probably correct, but now I’m curious what it would look like if instead they can ONLY use quick alchemy. That is, their alchemical pool creations are too unstable to pre-prep; they either make them on the fly or use the normal crafting rules (and costs) to make items in advance.
If they do get alchemy, would they be able to get Alchemist Dedication to get more more stuff? Would be much like a wizard doubling down on spels by taking arcane sorcerer dedication.
Tl;DR
I think there will be a high-risk-to-reward aspect (which the devs have confirmed for Swashbucklers) that Investigators (as well as Oracles & Witches) may end up sharing. I believe it will work similarly to a Focus Pool. There may also be safeguards (i.e. Assurance) which lower the risk/reward mechanics.
Full:
I think the Investigator will be a mirror for the Rogue much like the Swashbuckler will be a mirror of Fighters. In that I think they'll have something like a Focus Pool, but for physical deeds. In the Investigator's instance, deeds tied more to skills and basic combat. Also, from what the devs mentioned, the Swashbuckler will play more with risk. I can see an Investigator doing the same thing. Perhaps the pool for them will involve luck (& grit & panache...), say for rerolls because some of your maneuvers have bad crit fail consequences!
I don't actually expect alchemy to be a fundamental ability, though I could see a "Racket" (or whatever the equivalent name is) for this. But it'd have to be something you couldn't merely pick up via MCD Alchemist, and I don't see much development space there for that.
I could also see gunslinging as a "Racket" though that's more likely to fall under Swashbuckler. (And IMO should, and in this book, though I could see an archetype for it instead.)
Further speculation:
There could be three fields for an Investigator (and "Fields" might just be a proper name for their class's tracks.) I think in many cases they will get access to boosts to skills, like bonus Assurance feats, rolling w/ Assurance as a fallback, rerolling, and similar non-static perks. Maybe even ability to make successes into critical successes at risk of failures turning into critical failures.
-Physical: Daring deeds, rooftop chases, etc. Bonus to physical skills.
-Savant: The guy who knows stuff. Rerolls on Recall Knowledge, maybe extra facts per success as well as ability to find weaknesses in enemies.
-Face: All the charisma skills.
Ultimately, most of the PF1 differences between a Rogue who investigates and a roguish Investigator were mechanical. So I foresee a great deal of the difference being in whatever mechanic Paizo's introducing involving Swashbucklers vs. Fighters.
I wouldn't be surprised if that "luck"/"higher risk-reward" mechanic extended also to Oracles. Maybe even Witches, what with their links to omens & curses. Adding the mechanic to all four would complete the package of party roles, which seems pretty tidy re: development & release.
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I enjoyed my PF1 Investigator.. Now, granted, I took the archetype where I got to use Int for perception, sense motive, and UMD. My problem with studied combat, is that it was mainly restricted to melee for most things. And I prefer range. But, for a non-rogue skill monkey, I enjoyed the class. Tho, in PF2, I'd like to see a subclass/school of thought, that would swap out alchemy for occult focus. For those paranormal style investigators.. Guess we'll find out early next month..
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I am hoping that the class has ZERO Alchemy features and instead goes its own direction. There is no reason to make Base Classes that have significantly similar or identical features to other base classes.
Just like if they come out with a Slayer Class, I'd be disappointed if they were given Sneak Attack.
There is no reason to make Base Classes that have significantly similar or identical features to other base classes.
I mean, the CRB has five classes that get 10th level spellcasting and the APG is giving us two more.
If that's fine I don't see why we couldn't squeeze alchemy into a second class and still build something interesting off of it, especially since it's a lot less overbearing of a feature.
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@Squiggit I don't see any problem with the Investigator having access to alchemy through class feats, I just don't want it to be "baked in" the way it was in 1E. I never understood why my Investigator had to know how to use alchemy, any more than anything else an intelligent person might learn how to do. I'd rather it be an option, is all.
Or that you can use the same pool for, say, psychic spells once those wander back in.
I would love to be able to make an analog to the Psychic Detective. It was one of my favorite class options in PF1.
I agree with alchemy being optional. There's nothing inherent to the act of investigating that requires using alchemy to do it, though it may or may not help depending on what you're investigating.
I personally never made a 1e investigator, though I did make rogues that covered the concept in a non-alchemical way, because I didn't want that extra stuff that didn't make sense for the character concept.
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I probably would have made a Psychic Detective in 1E.. But, never got around to it.. Not sure if Psychic has been replaced by Occult or if they do decide to add a 5th magic source. And, I wouldn't mind if the Investigator has multiple sub paths.. 1) Alchemy, 2) Occult (or Psychic), 3) More martial/skill focused.
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Coroner
Sleuth
Steelhound
Intelligencer
Toxicologist
Not sure what each would be, but researching obscure words for “detective” or “spy” is fun.
My wife read through the Investigator class & her first comment was a single question:
"Why don't they have a Paranormal Investigator?"
And now, I hurt to see a Paranormal Investigator option! For the time being, maybe... multi-class archetype into Bard?
They've said they will add onto the class. I really hope that Paranormal Investigator is one of the areas where they expand the class!