Is it really considered entitled to point out an issue with a simple weapon; and the only weapon on the weapons chart with an issue like this? I already recognize it’s slower than other weapons and chose it in spite of that. Acknowledging it as a slower weapon doesn’t magically solve the issues it still has; especially when compared to a lighter crossbow.Well, one easy solution in that case is to pretend the heavy crossbow isn't on that chart.
Look, I know you want a cheap way to transform the heavy crossbow into a submachinegun.
I mean, if it’s not a fully automatic shotgun with 1000ft range, 50ft burst, and persistent Frost damage for level 1 then why bother? /s
Fair enough, if you'd just drop the pretense that you're asking for something completely innocous, as if it was just a random typo that the Reload column says two, or that maybe they just forgot to include the feat you want.
What really I find reasonable, though, is Paizo including it without bothering to make it
usefuloptimal for you.
This would be a good point. . . If i was the only one saying the Heavy Crossbow is just a bad choice every which way you look at it with the exception of Perfect Shot, which is an 18th level feat. As I’ve said, for the third time now, people don’t have to like the rule; can feel it’s not RAI; or can houserule it however they want. I’m just curious if there’s anything that actually stops it from working; and the answer seems to be that it works just fine, and as intended to work. :)
So you expect a mechanic to work differently based on a given thematic or GM ruling. I never said anything against games running differently; matter of fact, to each their own. I’m just not going to try and pass off subjective interpretation of how a rule should work based on the preference of each individual person. There’s no consistent reason that a Magically bonded creature that is Magically/Alchemically gifted to manipulate objects like a humanoid, should be gated from activities based on the whimsy of each individual GM; unless it’s a houserule that is.
For curiosity sake, is there any information to suggest that it’s not allowable via RAI? Or is that just your interpretation based on your personal preference?
Yes. Giant Barbarian:
"You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). If you’re not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you."Using a weapon 2 sizes category above yours is forbidden.
So, depending on the GM views of size of weapon compared to size of your familiar, he can prevent you from doing it. It's not a mechanic working differently, it's a GM houseruling because you ask him so. RAW, you just can't.
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Well I would note that in this case the familiar isn't wielding it. So not sure if its explicitly applicable.
(Unless there is a reload only whjile wielding clause somewhere I can't find. WHich wouldn't surprise me)
It doesn't say wield, it says use. Reloading is part of the weapon use.
Anyway, the only thing I say is that there is no RAW allowing a familiar to do so. It's houserule territory. As a DM, I would allow it in the current state of the rules as it's far from overpowered.
To be honest, if they release feats to make heavy crossbows better, I would much rather they be fighter feats, as the heavy crossbow generally isn't a weapon I picture being used by a ranger. (the heavy crossbow is probably similar to what historically was known as an arbalest, which was usually wielded by a guy in a mixture of plate and mail hiding behind a pavise, who generally wasn't very well suited to the scouting and skirmishing we would associate with a ranger).
You could carry multiple loaded heavy crossbows (or have them carried by a pack horse) and fire (1 action) drop (free action) interact to grab another heavy crossbow (1 action) then fire again (1 action). (I think that should work?).
Bonus points if you have a hireling reloading heavy crossbows for you.
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Cant open the book right now but could you use doubling rings to auto enchant a bunch of preloaded crossbow as you pick them up? Not sure on the wording but you could have an appropriately levelled gauntlet with a doubling ring.
Only melee weapons sadly.
As for how to actually build one, I thought of this build utilizing a big opening shot and then maybe use other weapons if the enemy comes near:
1 Human, Precision Ranger, Crossbow Ace
2 Cleric Dedication
4 Zeal Domain: Weapon Surge
Now, with Hunt Target, Weapon Surge, Strike you do 2d12+1d8+2 ~19 damage with a normal heavy XBow. Weapon Surge also helps at the highest levels because we don't need the Major Striking rune for the XBow with that.
6 Hunter's Aim
8 Emblazon Armament
Emblazon jus for that extra damage. And Hunter's Aim for some versality. If we reloaded the previous round, we can even combine Weapon Surge with Hunter's Aim.
With a Striking XBow, Weapon Surge and now Weapon Spec. that's 3d12+1d8+5 ~ 29 dmg.
Now let's try to pump the damage further. Sneak Attack is tricky because we have to shout "Weapon Surrrrrge!" before shooting. So...
9 Wizard Dedication (from Human Ancestry feat)
10 Basic Wizard Spellcasting (True Strike)
12 some Wizard feat
14 Bespell Weapon
With a Greater Striking XBow and Weapon Surge we now do 4d12+2d8+1d6+3 ~ 44 damage.
When we use Hunt Target and want to shoot in the same round, we can either use Weapon Surge, True Strike or Hunted Shot which gives versality. If we have hunted/reloaded last turn, we can even use True Strike and Weapon Surge together and hope for the crit of doom.
Perfect Shot is less interesting for this build because it can't use the setup spells. Instead maybe get more spells for one of the dedications.
At lvl 20 with an energy rune (and only a greater striking rune) that would top out at 4d12+3d8+2d6+9 ~ 55 damage on a normal hit.
[3d12 greater striking xbow + 1d12 weapon surge + 3d8 precision + 1d6 bespell + 1d6 elemental rune + 2 xbow ace + 1 emblazon + 6 gr. weapon spec.]
Worth it? I don't know. But with True Strike, Weapon Surge and Hunter's Aim we can decide if we want high base damage or high crit chance pretty good. Some of the build definig feats can be postponed to make space for Running Reload, Quick Draw or Twin Takedown (for melee).
Edit:
And since we focus on 1 big shot per encounter, using magic ammunition becomes attractive. For the money we save on the Major Striking rune, we can buy 2 dozens Disintegrating Bolts. :)
Edit2:
Penetrating Bolts work veeerry well with such a high damage shot. Explosive Bolts if you just want damage overkill. And maybe Spellstrike Bolts if you pick up nice spells from your dedications.
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All the poor little organ grinder monkey Familiars being repurposed for this intense combat reloading, cranking this huge crossbow and loading another bolt within 2-3 seconds. Think of the monkeys! :'(
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All the poor little organ grinder monkey Familiars being repurposed for this intense combat reloading, cranking this huge crossbow and loading another bolt within 2-3 seconds. Think of the monkeys! :'(
Wouldn't it just be easier to build the familiar into the crossbow? Add gerbil into the crossbow reloading wheel and watch it run... Just add some food, a water bottle and some prestidigitation once in a while to keep things clean and you're all set.
To be honest, if they release feats to make heavy crossbows better, I would much rather they be fighter feats, as the heavy crossbow generally isn't a weapon I picture being used by a ranger. (the heavy crossbow is probably similar to what historically was known as an arbalest, which was usually wielded by a guy in a mixture of plate and mail hiding behind a pavise, who generally wasn't very well suited to the scouting and skirmishing we would associate with a ranger).
I imagine we're eventually going to get repeating crossbows as an advanced weapon, and the fighter is absolutely the best chassis to use any advanced weapon with. That's probably close enough. But with how armor works it's going to be a hard sell to combine "high dex, because you use a crossbow" with "wears heavy armor".
I imagine we're eventually going to get repeating crossbows as an advanced weapon, and the fighter is absolutely the best chassis to use any advanced weapon with. That's probably close enough. But with how armor works it's going to be a hard sell to combine "high dex, because you use a crossbow" with "wears heavy armor".
Getting both dex and str is not that hard.
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I imagine we're eventually going to get repeating crossbows as an advanced weapon, and the fighter is absolutely the best chassis to use any advanced weapon with. That's probably close enough. But with how armor works it's going to be a hard sell to combine "high dex, because you use a crossbow" with "wears heavy armor".Getting both dex and str is not that hard.
But why would someone with high dex want to get heavy armor while using a crossbow? A switch hitter build could be a good reason, but then medium armor would be better and cheaper than heavy armor.
But why would someone with high dex want to get heavy armor while using a crossbow? A switch hitter build could be a good reason, but then medium armor would be better and cheaper than heavy armor.
I mean, heavy armor has a higher max AC than medium armor and if you're a ranged combatant the movement penalty is less impactful too. Unless you can't meet the strength requirement or bulk is a huge issue there's no reason not to wear half plate or splint if you have heavy armor proficiency.
I mean, heavy armor has a higher max AC than medium armor and if you're a ranged combatant the movement penalty is less impactful too. Unless you can't meet the strength requirement or bulk is a huge issue there's no reason not to wear half plate or splint if you have heavy armor proficiency.
But why would someone with high dex want to get heavy armor while using a crossbow? A switch hitter build could be a good reason, but then medium armor would be better and cheaper than heavy armor.
Huh, i thought they capped out the same as medium armor. I still feel it would be less useful on a Ranged focused character; but decent on a switch hitter. Though like Cabbage said, seems like kind of a hard sell in most circumstances.
Anyway, the only thing I say is that there is no RAW allowing a familiar to do so. It's houserule territory.If the familiar has Manual Dexterity, then there is absolutely a rule allowing a familiar to load a crossbow — the text of the Manual Dexterity ability.
But can your little monkey friend reload your crossbow while you are holding/wielding it or do one or both of you need to use your actions to hand the cross bow back and forth?
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But can your little monkey friend reload your crossbow while you are holding/wielding it or do one or both of you need to use your actions to hand the cross bow back and forth?
In the absence of a rule stating that the interact actions to reload a weapon must come from the creature holding the weapon I don’t see any reason to assume they must.
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But why would someone with high dex want to get heavy armor while using a crossbow? A switch hitter build could be a good reason, but then medium armor would be better and cheaper than heavy armor.I imagine we're eventually going to get repeating crossbows as an advanced weapon, and the fighter is absolutely the best chassis to use any advanced weapon with. That's probably close enough. But with how armor works it's going to be a hard sell to combine "high dex, because you use a crossbow" with "wears heavy armor".Getting both dex and str is not that hard.
+1 AC and athletics.
Given Wis/Dex/Con are as 3 saves, you have 1 boost left. You other option is to pump Int or Cha (and feint is melee only).
Note: I'm not saying one is better than the other, just trade-offs.
Overall, I think the heavy crossbow is just a bad weapon design. 1 action is not worth +1 die size.
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Overall, I think the heavy crossbow is just a bad weapon design. 1 action is not worth +1 die size.
This I think is the ultimate reality here. You're gaining 1 average damage, but you're losing attacks to do it. The regular crossbow can shoot three times in two rounds, the heavy crossbow twice. If you start working with two action attacks, the heavy crossbow can only fire every other round unless your GM lets you split the reload action (which is explicitly a GM call). Even then the heavy crossbow has to skip every third round.
The numbers actually get better when you get perfect shot, but not by a ton and that's at level 18.
I feel like they should have gone farther, maybe even make the heavy crossbow a three action reload but give it some really compelling damage and traits to make it feel like the big, unwieldy monster it should be rather than just a slightly more damaging, vastly slower crossbow.
Overall, I think the heavy crossbow is just a bad weapon design. 1 action is not worth +1 die size.This I think is the ultimate reality here. You're gaining 1 average damage, but you're losing attacks to do it. The regular crossbow can shoot three times in two rounds, the heavy crossbow twice. If you start working with two action attacks, the heavy crossbow can only fire every other round unless your GM lets you split the reload action (which is explicitly a GM call). Even then the heavy crossbow has to skip every third round.
The numbers actually get better when you get perfect shot, but not by a ton and that's at level 18.
I feel like they should have gone farther, maybe even make the heavy crossbow a three action reload but give it some really compelling damage and traits to make it feel like the big, unwieldy monster it should be rather than just a slightly more damaging, vastly slower crossbow.
I am hoping that they go more that direction with firearms. That said, I feel like the heavy crossbow should definitely have more going for it, especially since it is unclear whether or not you can even load a heavy crossbow ahead of time.
My purposed errata/home rule.
Crossbow - d6, reload 1, simple, range 120', sniper.
Heavy crossbow - d12, reload 2, simple, range 160', sniper attribute.
Sniper attribute: You do not take a penalty when attacking while prone.
My purposed errata/home rule.
Crossbow - d6, reload 1, simple, range 120', sniper.
Heavy crossbow - d12, reload 2, simple, range 160', sniper attribute.Sniper attribute: You do not take a penalty when attacking while prone.
How would Heavy Crossbow work with things like Crossbow Ace that bump up the damage die?
Anyway, the only thing I say is that there is no RAW allowing a familiar to do so. It's houserule territory.If the familiar has Manual Dexterity, then there is absolutely a rule allowing a familiar to load a crossbow — the text of the Manual Dexterity ability.
"You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You can grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or produce some similar effect. You might have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful."
It clearly states that being able to interact is not enough. The DM can ask you for a skill check. This is a very valid application of this rule, as your are reloading a weapon twice your weight that you can't use.
It's houserule territory.
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"You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You can grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or produce some similar effect. You might have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful."
It clearly states that being able to interact is not enough. The DM can ask you for a skill check.
By default, there is no skill check involved in loading a weapon, but even if you choose to impose one, as a house rule, that doesn’t mean a familiar couldn’t try. CRB p 217 “If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier.”
This is a very valid application of this rule, as your are reloading a weapon twice your weight that you can't use.
It's houserule territory.
Oh, I agree that it’s house rule territory to require a skill check for an activity that the rules as written don’t.
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So you expect a mechanic to work differently based on a given thematic or GM ruling. I never said anything against games running differently; matter of fact, to each their own. I’m just not going to try and pass off subjective interpretation of how a rule should work based on the preference of each individual person. There’s no consistent reason that a Magically bonded creature that is Magically/Alchemically gifted to manipulate objects like a humanoid, should be gated from activities based on the whimsy of each individual GM; unless it’s a houserule that is.
For curiosity sake, is there any information to suggest that it’s not allowable via RAI? Or is that just your interpretation based on your personal preference?
Yes. Giant Barbarian:
"You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). If you’re not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you."Using a weapon 2 sizes category above yours is forbidden.
So, depending on the GM views of size of weapon compared to size of your familiar, he can prevent you from doing it. It's not a mechanic working differently, it's a GM houseruling because you ask him so. RAW, you just can't.
If you look at table 6-19 it shows that tiny creatures have a bulk limit. Which means Tiny creatures have a Bulk Limit, but half as much as a Small or Medium creature; so 2.5 Bulk limit at minimum. Hey! Enough to wield/hold a Heavy Crossbow! Look at that! That’s if that even mattered to begin with; which the rules of reload don’t specifically ask for to begin with.
“In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit.”
So there’s generally no issue with using a weapon 1 size category different. Small and Medium weapons are treated as the same size for most circumstances so a Tiny Creature can reasonably wield a Small/Medium sized weapon if we go with RAI; there’s just no example to base this with RAW.
So, let’s refresh:
1. Tiny creatures have the strength to hold a heavy crossbow (though there’s no reason they should need to)
2. Tiny creatures can wield weapons a size larger than themselves if we base it on the ruling of oversized weapons for small and medium creatures and going by the size chart small and medium creatures are only one size category larger (though there’s no reason they should need to)
3. Manuel Dexterity magically allows them to use the manipulate trait; one of which is the interact action, which the reload feature requires.
4. Interact allows for similar actions, so helping someone reload is reasonably a similar action to reloading a weapon yourself.
So far there’s no reason within the Core Rulebook to not allow such an action. Feel free to take another crack at it, but at this point i feel you’re not even looking at the actual rules and just going off of your subjective interpretation of otherwise clearly written rules.
How would Heavy Crossbow work with things like Crossbow Ace that bump up the damage die?My purposed errata/home rule.
Crossbow - d6, reload 1, simple, range 120', sniper.
Heavy crossbow - d12, reload 2, simple, range 160', sniper attribute.Sniper attribute: You do not take a penalty when attacking while prone.
I think that is the only crossbow feat. And just increasing the bonus to +3 be the same.
I think that is the only crossbow feat. And just increasing the bonus to +3 be the same.How would Heavy Crossbow work with things like Crossbow Ace that bump up the damage die?My purposed errata/home rule.
Crossbow - d6, reload 1, simple, range 120', sniper.
Heavy crossbow - d12, reload 2, simple, range 160', sniper attribute.Sniper attribute: You do not take a penalty when attacking while prone.
If the crossbow is a simple crossbow, also increase the damage die size for that attack by one step (page 279).
When an effect calls on you to increase the size of your weapon damage dice, instead of using its normal weapon damage dice, use the next larger die, as listed below (so if you were using a d4, you’d use a d6, and so on). If you are already using a d12, the size is already at its maximum. You can’t increase your weapon damage die size more than once.
1d4➞1d6➞1d8➞1d10➞1d12
I’m more referencing this. From the looks of it Crossbow Ace would end up being more useless than useful. I could see the Sniper attribute being too powerful when coupled with Quick Draw and lining a few of them in a row. Takes a good amount of setup, but ends up being pretty simple to get multiple shots off with zero penalty and potentially very deadly; especially with that 40’ increase you gave to the range.
By default, there is no skill check involved in loading a weapon
You're making up a rule. The DM can ask a check for any Interact action per RAW. I haven't found a line saying it doesn't apply to reload. And it looks like there is no consensus on this matter, so you have to expect some DMs to ask you for a check, per RAW.
If you look at table 6-19 it shows that tiny creatures have a bulk limit. Which means Tiny creatures have a Bulk Limit, but half as much as a Small or Medium creature; so 2.5 Bulk limit at minimum.
2.5 minimum? It's (5+Strength modifier)/2. 0 is the minimum. And familiars have no Strength, so I doubt people read it like 10 Strength.
I hadn't seen the rules for larger weapons. So, I agree with you that they should be able to operate a larger weapon.I still think this ruling is quite far stretched, and that you can expect table variations.
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This is the real issue on the matter. The two action reload makes it too difficult to be used consistently. Certain feats like Penetrating shot and Deadly Aim make it good, but not a much better choice over a regular Crossbow.I feel like what we need are feats that improve the action economy, not "reducing the number of actions needed to reload" since the heavy crossbow is fine as a one shot/round weapon, but things like running reload that let you combine interact actions to reload with "other things you might want to do anyway."
I created a "Rapid Reload" feat that lets you spend your Reaction as a Reload action once per round. It effectively would allow the Heavy Crossbow to Fire, 1 action Reloading, 1 Reaction, and then fire again. Of course, the regular Crossbow could also benefit from the feat: Fire, Reaction, Fire again, Reload.
(...) unless your GM lets you split the reload action (which is explicitly a GM call).
Not really, the rules are very clear there.
Reloading a heavy crossbow is 2 seperate Reload actions, nowhere does it talk about it being an activity. Also Running Reload allows for moving and one Reload action - if reloading a heavy crossbow was an activity, that feat wouldn't even work with a heavy crossbow.Just like moving 50ft takes 2 Stride actions and not a Stride activity, Reload 2 needs 2 Reload actions.
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You're making up a rule. The DM can ask a check for any Interact action per RAW.
Player: I unsheath my sword.
GM: Athletics check!Player: Why would I need to make an Athletics check to unsheath my sword?
GM: The rules state that I can ask a check any Interact action, and I haven’t found a line saying it doesn’t apply to unsheathing a sword.
You're making up a rule. The DM can ask a check for any Interact action per RAW.Player: I unsheath my sword.
GM: Athletics check!
Player: Why would I need to make an Athletics check to unsheath my sword?
GM: The rules state that I can ask a check any Interact action, and I haven’t found a line saying it doesn’t apply to unsheathing a sword.
You're making a strawman argument. The fact that the DM can ask for a check doesn't mean he has to or that it's always relevant.
In this discussion, many people have pointed out that they find it hardly possible for a Familiar to reload a Heavy Crossbow. These people will certainly ask you for a check if they are DMing. And it looks like they are a bit too many to dismiss their point of view. That's just what I mean. Table variations have to be expected.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But can your little monkey friend reload your crossbow while you are holding/wielding it or do one or both of you need to use your actions to hand the cross bow back and forth?
As silly as it is for your monkey friend to reload your crossbow for you... is it even a good idea?
You still have to command a minion, and now you're stuck in place wherever you start shooting unless you want to leave your familiar behind. You can only make two action activities (to be fair, that's a lot of ranger attacks).
So, you spent class feats on a familar, and are stuck in place... all for +1-4 avg damage?
Let the monkey reload the heavy crossbow, it's still a bad choice compared to the regular crossbow.
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You're making a strawman argument.
No, that’s just as reasonable as a GM requiring a skill check to reload a crossbow. Each is an interact action described in the rules with no skill check required. It would arguably be more reasonable for a GM to require an Acrobatics check for a PC to use a fork to move food from his plate to his mouth because at least that isn’t already a defined action in the rules describe without requiring a check.
The fact that the DM can ask for a check doesn't mean he has to or that it's always relevant.
Exactly right. The GM can call for a check, but if the GM calls for checks on activities that are already described in the rules and don’t require checks, that’s a house rule.
In this discussion, many people have pointed out that they find it hardly possible for a Familiar to reload a Heavy Crossbow.
Sure, and I find it hardly possible for a human being to wave his hands around, mutter some incantations and call forth a fireball. But in both cases the rules of this fantasy game say that if a character has made the relevant investment in resources, it happens because magic. If the GM wants to change that, it’s a house rule.
These people will certainly ask you for a check if they are DMing.
Sure. It’s their prerogative as GMs to use house rules to invalidate the choices characters make when they build from options marked common in the Core Rulebook. If they do, I hope they tell me before I spend time building a perfectly legal character.
Table variations have to be expected.
For clear rules regarding common choices. It’s not unreasonable to expect that the Core Rulebook can be trusted.
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If you look at table 6-19 it shows that tiny creatures have a bulk limit. Which means Tiny creatures have a Bulk Limit, but half as much as a Small or Medium creature; so 2.5 Bulk limit at minimum.2.5 minimum? It's (5+Strength modifier)/2. 0 is the minimum. And familiars have no Strength, so I doubt people read it like 10 Strength.
I hadn't seen the rules for larger weapons. So, I agree with you that they should be able to operate a larger weapon.
I still think this ruling is quite far stretched, and that you can expect table variations.
Actually it doesn’t say weather you subtract or not with a negative strength score; if so then Fantasy Grounds didn’t get the memo. :p
Then assuming a carry capacity of 0 as a minimum, and w/o strength stats we can use the athletics modifier’s -4 to guess a minimum strength of 2. With that a tiny creature can be expected to manipulate 0.5~1 bulk at the most.
Your familiar’s save modifiers and AC are equal to yours before applying circumstance or status bonuses or penalties. Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier. It doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses.
With that i’d say it’s reasonable to assume any stats it would have are based on the PC it’s bound to; weather via Casting Stat or Charisma.