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There's no hard formula for weapon creation, but generally speaking it seems like most weapons in a category have a standard damage size and get a trait.
Then by lowering that damage die they can pick up extra traits.
For simple weapons, we see a lot of d6 weapons with 1 trait (club, mace, morningstar, spear) and then d4 weapons with 2-4 traits (dagger, light mace, sickle)... the only ones with two traits are the ones with the "free hand" trait, too. All the other ones have at least three traits, which suggests the free hand trait is considered extra valuable.
The staff however is a d4 weapon, but it only has one trait. This feels kinda bad and makes its existing trait seem a lot worse by comparison.
Contrast with the Bastard Sword, which also only has the two-handed trait but does standard 1h martial one-trait weapon damage and standard 2h martial 1-trait weapon damage.
Contrast with the Hook Hammer or Katana, which also have reduced die sizes like the staff, but have additional traits instead.
And it feels like the staff should either have an extra trait or do d6 damage one handed.
Staves can be magic staves. Or rather magic staves can be wielded as staves and even get runes. That's probably why they don't have more traits.
That's the main reason I thought of as well. It's a pretty big boon, too, considering a Staff Magus type character could make a lot of use out of extra spell slots from a staff.
I'm hoping there are going to be some pretty awesome staves in the future too, with bonuses a bit better than ID'ing a school of magic more easily.
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Some traits are worth more than other traits, and "two-hand d8" is genuinely strong for a simple weapon.
The fact that magic staves are also staves is certainly a compelling point, but... it's still a strength-based weapon and staves are aimed at casters.
Most casters aren't going to be in a position to leverage that d4 to begin with and anyone who invests the resources to do so is going to get a better weapon... or make it a shifting staff.
Some traits are worth more than other traits
Which is why I contrasted it with other weapons that have the same trait. The damage die on the one-handed version of the staff just seems disproportionately low by comparison because two-hand isn't generally treated as a high value trait.
My guess is that this was done more because the other two-hand weapons all have two die-step increases between sizes and they didn't want to make it a d10, but the end result is still just plain bad in its one handed version.
and "two-hand d8" is genuinely strong for a simple weapon.
As a two-handed weapon it compares with the longspear, which has reach (arguably a lot more high value than the versatile the bastard sword loses) so I'm not sure that's entirely true either.
and "two-hand d8" is genuinely strong for a simple weapon.As a two-handed weapon it compares with the longspear, which has reach (arguably a lot more high value than the versatile the bastard sword loses) so I'm not sure that's entirely true either.
A lot of the time you're going to want a free hand for something. The staff is a better option than the longspear in these contexts. The two-handed trait buys you versatility.
A lot of the time you're going to want a free hand for something. The staff is a better option than the longspear in these contexts. The two-handed trait buys you versatility.
I know. That's the whole premise behind the trait, after all. My point is just that the staff seems to have an extra damage dice penalty added to it that doesn't match the math that other weapons with the same trait, and weapons in general, tend to follow.
If you think that's fine, cool, I guess. It's just an odd inconsistency that sort of bugs me, personally.
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The staff also has a price of 0, that might be counted as a sort of weapon trait.
There are definitely some areas of the weapon design math where they make adjustments for realism. The awkwardness of using it one handed might be what they were trying to emulate with the extra reduction in weapon damage.
Personally, I think it's fine because it gives a bit of room for some extra oomf in magic staves. Hopefully they'll explore that more.
I'm just happy that it can normally be wielded one-handed in this edition. In PF1 that required a feat. It's also nice that you can use Magic Weapon or Shillelagh on a Staff.
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I'm just happy that it can normally be wielded one-handed in this edition. In PF1 that required a feat. It's also nice that you can use Magic Weapon or Shillelagh on a Staff.
Me too, you can go full Gandalf with a sword & staff.
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I'm just happy that it can normally be wielded one-handed in this edition. In PF1 that required a feat. It's also nice that you can use Magic Weapon or Shillelagh on a Staff.Me too, you can go full Gandalf with a sword & staff.
Yes, this is a BIG plus for me too.
Staff does have an extra trait, it's "Wizard is proficient with it".
Also, you can't go Gandalf with sword&staff because you can't get sword proficiency without multiclassing into Fighter or being an Elf.
Staff stats are f#~~ing awesome.
Staff does have an extra trait, it's "Wizard is proficient with it".
Also, you can't go Gandalf with sword&staff because you can't get sword proficiency without multiclassing into Fighter or being an Elf.
Well, you don't need proficiency to be Gandalf, he never seemed to actually show any great skill at using Glamdring, particularly in the movies.
Well, you don't need proficiency to be Gandalf, he never seemed to actually show any great skill at using Glamdring, particularly in the movies.
Then I don't know why you couldn't use it in PF1, simply have a staff in one hand while whirling around with a sword. He certainly used the staff even less than sword when dual wielding.
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Well, you don't need proficiency to be Gandalf, he never seemed to actually show any great skill at using Glamdring, particularly in the movies.Then I don't know why you couldn't use it in PF1, simply have a staff in one hand while whirling around with a sword. He certainly used the staff even less than sword when dual wielding.
That's fair
The staff however is a d4 weapon, but it only has one trait. This feels kinda bad and makes its existing trait seem a lot worse by comparison.
Yeah, it stood out to me. Strictly as a 2-handed weapon, it's fine: I've built a character around it. The ability to one hand is interesting mostly as a way to keep wielding it while you aren't attacking.
Contrast with the Hook Hammer or Katana, which also have reduced die sizes like the staff, but have additional traits instead.
Yeah, it's a big contrast, bigger then just shifting one category IMO. One jump a damage die in both 1 and 2 handed plus a trait and one bumps 1 handed damage plus 3 traits. Maybe uncommon adds a trait? Looking at the dwarf clan dagger in comparison, it's Agile, Parry, and Versatile B vs twohanded d8.
And it feels like the staff should either have an extra trait or do d6 damage one handed.
Looking at the Bo Staff with it's Monk, Parry, Reach, Trip, I'd love to see it get parry back from the playtest. Heck, even just adding Monk would feel better even if it really doesn't add any more usefulness.
Staff does have an extra trait, it's "Wizard is proficient with it".
Also, you can't go Gandalf with sword&staff because you can't get sword proficiency without multiclassing into Fighter or being an Elf.
No need to multiclass or be locked into a particular ancestry. Just take Weapon Proficiency twice. It won't be great proficiency, but you will at least be adding your level to attack rolls.
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No need to multiclass or be locked into a particular ancestry. Just take Weapon Proficiency twice. It won't be great proficiency, but you will at least be adding your level to attack rolls.Staff does have an extra trait, it's "Wizard is proficient with it".
Also, you can't go Gandalf with sword&staff because you can't get sword proficiency without multiclassing into Fighter or being an Elf.
None of the options are great because your sword proficiency will only ever be Trained - you'd be better off hitting with the staff which will have Expert. It's pretty annoying.
The staff also has a price of 0, that might be counted as a sort of weapon trait.
I thought about that, but the club is also free and has a standard trait spread for a simple weapon.
Looking at the martial weapons table and prices are all over the place and there doesn't really seem to be any particular link between value and trait spread.