For the first time in many years (if ever) a permadeath game is actually possible straight out of the box without any houserules, thanks to raise dead and resurrect being uncommon.
So how do people plan on handling returning from the dead?
For me, I find the idea that anyone rich enough can simply pay their priest enough money and come back from the dead to not really be supported by the fiction of most settings (including Eberron). So I plan on having most of the mainstream religions flat out be unable to cast raise dead. They never learned the prayers required to cast the spell. They instead teach that every life eventually comes to an end and it is only natural.
If you want raise dead cast your going to have to find a cult to teach it to you (and they will have it as a prayer to a non-mainstream god so your cleric of a mainstream god better not be praying to that other god!). In this way sorcerers can learn raise dead, although it would come at a very high price.
However because I know after 40+ years people expect to be able to come back from the dead, I'll be making resurrect much more available. Druids would commonly know it and be able to share it. But books on ancient cultures and their religions would also be able to contain the ritual as well. So in this way, most people wouldn't have access to the resurrect ritual or think to look for it, but PCs will be able to gain access to it without TOO much difficulty. It has it's own downsides though (it takes a day) so if you want the convenience of raise dead you'd better hope for a sorcerer to convince someone to teach them raise dead ;)
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I will keep it uncommon, I dislike commonly accessible revives in any game.
Resurrect will be a very limited spell in terms of getting someone to teach it to players. And uncommon when it comes to people who know it.
Raise dead would require very specific achievements for a player to be granted it and will also be such limited to similarly qualified npcs. (I wouldn't have any god hand it out willy nilly)
What people are accustomed to has never stopped me in the past, and I feel as long as I inform players and they agree to play in my game then they are waving any right to complain. I haven't yet had an issue with this philosophy.
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I'll be making the ritual common personally. Permadeath among PCs is only fun for me when the player appreciates it too. If they do want permadeath they opt not to be returned to life.
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I will make dying harder than the basic rules, and resurrection basically impossible.
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The gods don't have to let go of the souls they've reaped.
In Golarion/CRB, Pharasma can opt to keep a soul. If you want returning to be rare, the uncommon ritual could still fail more often than not. Essentially, Paizo had enough foresight to give GMs freedom on this, which I appreciate. Yes, inform your players of this though, especially if they start questing for diamonds and the ritual itself.
I had one campaign where only PCs & specific villain NPCs could return from death because they were tied into a prophecy together. The gods wanted them in play (though the evil gods weren't above adding a bit of undead spice to the mix.)
It stunned my players later in Greyhawk when the option for an NPC's return arose. WHAT?! Yeah, guys, different world. Sorry?
Lots of deaths in that campaign.
I think returning should tie into the nature of the campaign.
In a Worldwound campaign, the setting is practically the main character, a perpetual adversary, much like a Vietnam war story, gritty and brutal.
(Much like the chapter in the playtest!) A PC shouldn't necessarily want to come back! Or expect to come back whole or sane.
Unless the approach is like in Wrath of the Righteous where the heroes are meant to rise to godly heights. It'd be odd to toss in a new guy who just happened to have mythic levels. That's high fantasy/superhero level.
Don't know how I'll tackle it next.
Odds are I'll be in PFS for some time, where I expect it'll be all too normal.
I'm not really a fan of "the gods stop it" even if it only applies to non-PCs because there is no real justification for the gods to say yes to the PCs in that scenario. Unless I'm running Dark Sun I typically dont run permadeath games.
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The main reason for the gods to say yes to the heroes returning from the dead is ... because they are heroes. The gods know things that mortals don't, and often times that includes all of the world-shaking things the player characters might be expected to do.
Feels a bit on the nose to me. But if it works for your games, go for it!
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I'm not really a fan of "the gods stop it" even if it only applies to non-PCs because there is no real justification for the gods to say yes to the PCs in that scenario. Unless I'm running Dark Sun I typically dont run permadeath games.
The gods have no real justifications. Ever.
So that's odd reasoning, given that you give them their reasons, or could, if perma-killing NPCs was something that suited the flavor or genre.I think permadeath is more for grimdark campaigns too, but Golarion can go grimdark if you want. There are enough horrific locations for it.
Or you can go genies and wishes where planar travel isn't so mysterious and death is a transaction.
But who wants recovery from death to be a matter of wealth?
Is magic that reliable? Are the gods? Do the wealthiest kill themselves for kicks? And why is it cheaper to raise the young or unsuccessful (a.k.a. lower level)? How much handwaving is needed to keep the campaign's flavor w/o cutting players off from a normal resource that perhaps shouldn't be normal?
The gods have no real justifications. Ever.
So that's odd reasoning, given that you give them their reasons, or could, if perma-killing NPCs was something that suited the flavor or genre.
Sorry. The Gods have no meaningful justification other than the GM wants this to happen so he is going to railroad this into happening, even if he has to use divine intervention to get what he wants.
Sorry. I've had bad experiences with GMs doing stuff like this.
How much handwaving is needed to keep the campaign's flavor w/o cutting players off from a normal resource that perhaps shouldn't be normal?
I don't understand this question. Are you saying players should always have to roll up a new character every time they die?
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My personal preference against resurrection being easily achievable is that I simply do not like "people on this side of the wall of life and death having accurate information about the other side."
I strongly prefer all that stuff about the river of souls and petitioners etc. to be largely unknown to the living (though there is much speculation.) A world in which the nature of the afterlife can be known is one that's too far from my personal experience for me to really model.
Depends on the game, I suppose. The campaign I'm working on setting up right now is a relatively lore-light dungeon crawl so I think having a priest in town that can just resurrect people who die in the labyrinth if they can pay for it is fine and fits what I'm trying to do.
Granted, for more narrative heavy games we already play with some modified rules to make it so that your character is unlikely to die unless you want them to.
I'll be making the ritual common personally. Permadeath among PCs is only fun for me when the player appreciates it too. If they do want permadeath they opt not to be returned to life.
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I've been continuing some PF1 APs wherein player characters had died and either been revived or were slated to be revived. In the latter case I was able to make the Resurrection ritual part of the quest line, which felt more engaging than just finding a big enough settlement or leveling up high enough. PF1 APs also tend to drop scrolls of
Raise Dead scrolls are found as loot past a certain level in PF1 APs, so I didn't bother correcting my player when he was unaware the spell was now uncommon. Though the reason those scrolls were dropped was because it was a lot easier to get killed at high levels in the old system, so in retrospect maybe I should have just gotten rid of those loot drops.
In future campaigns I run I think I'll probably treat such magic as uncommon and be stingier with it. I also liked the Corruption rules of PF1 Horror Adventures as a risk of coming back, and I might convert those if Paizo hasn't already done it for me.
My personal preference against resurrection being easily achievable is that I simply do not like "people on this side of the wall of life and death having accurate information about the other side."
I strongly prefer all that stuff about the river of souls and petitioners etc. to be largely unknown to the living (though there is much speculation.) A world in which the nature of the afterlife can be known is one that's too far from my personal experience for me to really model.
The problem with this view, in my opinion, is that its explicitly stated in the lore (some place I forget which entry) that petitioners basically don't remember their previous except small portions and don't identify with who they were previously (there are exceptions) and that when returned to life the person doesn't recall their souls experience.
However, what's worse is that anyone with access to planeshift can visit Pharasma's divine realm and see the line of petitioners and learn exactly what is happening without dying at all.
So the dead/revived will not know what happened, but someone of high enough level can visit the plane and know what's going on (although plane shift is an uncommon spell in PF2) but you get what you anyways. I just think that you're line of reasoning doesn't hold up within the specific lore (that was established in PF1 with respect to petitioners and what the dead remember).
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This question may come up less often with the dying rules being what they are now. Unless you're disintegrated or killed through some similar magical effect, you generally have a 3 (or more) round margin between Dying 1 and Dying 4, plenty of time for stabilization effects and magical healing. Plus, Hero points are a standard thing now.
However, what's worse is that anyone with access to planeshift can visit Pharasma's divine realm and see the line of petitioners and learn exactly what is happening without dying at all.
Oh, I've thought of this. I made it so anyone planeshifting to the boneyard ends up, without fail, on one side of the "security gate" as it were. If they need to go somewhere inside for a legitimate reason, they will be escorted inside by a psychopomp who insists they don't wander.
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However, what's worse is that anyone with access to planeshift can visit Pharasma's divine realm and see the line of petitioners and learn exactly what is happening without dying at all.Oh, I've thought of this. I made it so anyone planeshifting to the boneyard ends up, without fail, on one side of the "security gate" as it were. If they need to go somewhere inside for a legitimate reason, they will be escorted inside by a psychopomp who insists they don't wander.
I still imagine Pharasmin clerics know whats up? I mean, is it supposed to be a secret whats happening to people's souls? I don't think I've seen anything in lore to indicate it was intended to be a secret, just that lines of communication may not readily exist between those in the know and those who don't. But as far as I'm aware there isn't any lore for enforced secrecy on what's happening.
Not to say you can't have that be the case, I just feel like it really changes the dynamic of who Pharasma is and what her purpose is.
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The gods have no real justifications. Ever.
So that's odd reasoning, given that you give them their reasons, or could, if perma-killing NPCs was something that suited the flavor or genre.Sorry. The Gods have no meaningful justification other than the GM wants this to happen so he is going to railroad this into happening, even if he has to use divine intervention to get what he wants.
Sorry. I've had bad experiences with GMs doing stuff like this.
How much handwaving is needed to keep the campaign's flavor w/o cutting players off from a normal resource that perhaps shouldn't be normal?I don't understand this question. Are you saying players should always have to roll up a new character every time they die?
I agree gods shouldn't be railroad conductors, so when they are active in a story it's best to offset them with other forces so that players/PCs can have agency. The players shouldn't be spectators to their characters' stories.
It was a question, not rhetorical, saying nothing.
Given the premises that:
1. Death should have consequences.
2. Coming back from death is a player expectation.
3. Coming back from death is a basic mechanic.
How does a GM balance the oomph of 1 w/ the mundanity of 2 & 3?
In grimdark, you're recalibrating player expectations so it's not such an issue. And in the highest of high fantasy, physical death is a phase, not an ending. D&D & PF1 had spells & abilities that addressed capturing souls and preventing raising. Coming from a high fantasy baseline it made sense that cunning strategists would develop such.
PF2 allows for that style of play, but it's made it easier for a middle ground with the Rituals being Uncommon and Pharasma explicitly making no promises you'll get souls back from her.
Early D&D had you lose Con or a level. Now? Lose a week of downtime?
(I do like PF2's crit success & crit failure outcomes! Makes the event actually feel extraordinary and risky.)
Perma-deaths have led to some of the most memorable moments in my RPing history. Yet there was also a quest for ears to revive some dead PCs. The deaths occurred against Ogre hybrids that in the published adventure collected ears in a chest. The PCs came in, hoping for any parts whatsoever and found this lucky-it-exists chest. They took it home and had to sort through it as best they could to see which were from friends. Made the deaths sort of silly, well, after the tension of possibly losing everybody went away.
To be clear, I'm only advocating that one's choice on death's role should mesh with the narrative and that player's should be aware what that means. I do find it interesting that PF2 has given more allowance for a grittier, perma-death playstyle without needing to tweak rules or Golarion lore, even though I think published adventures will keep to the norm.
I'm making all rituals in my campaign Rare. This is effectively the same thing as Uncommon, except it signals to the players that in order to access any rituals they will really have to work for them. The same goes for Raise Dead.
I'm also going to be altering the resurrection ritual to model the 13th age one.
Specifically:
- the first time an individual is the primary caster and the ritual succeeds, nothing happens to them.
- the second time an individual is the primary caster and the ritual succeeds, that person is aged a number of years equal to half their species' average lifespan.
- the third time an individual is the primary caster and the ritual succeeds, that person becomes permanently and irrevocably dead.
As such, knowledge of the resurrection ritual is a very closely guarded secret.
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This is gonna depend a lot on the specific setting.
For Golarion, I'd say they're maybe technically Uncommon in that you need to find a teacher, but readily available in any large enough city.
For Eberron, I'd be a lot more restrictive. Not so much in that no majority religions have them (The Blood of Vol should be very invested in this ritual though I guess they're a cult by some standards, and the existing setting indicates that most major faiths can do this...just not easily or often), but inasmuch as they sure won't teach them, only a few higher ups have them, and they'll charge prices in thingss other than money to perform them.
My setting has one of the main (less pleasant) afterlives directly connected to the prime plane, which puts me in a weird scenario.
Resurrection spells (I'm probably only having the actual ritual with easy access) are preferred, as it's the only way you actually come back to life properly alive. People in the afterlife tend to actually save up money to pay for their own revival, but practically speaking most people never achieve it or take years to do so.
For people unwilling or unable to wait, you can break out of the land of the dead, either by getting lucky, or by actually being strong or competent enough to get past the diabolic guards, cross the wastes, and reach the land of the living. Anybody who tries this method ends up undead or in a weird in-between though, instead of actually being alive. There are a lot of refugees from the land of the dead, but practically speaking a player character is only coming back via this method if the player is a) up for it and b) the PC is actually able to pull it off.
At the end of the day though, even the rich and powerful in my game would prefer to avoid the risk. The afterlife isn't a pleasant place, and no resurrection is guaranteed to work.
I'll probably let Pharasmins and Sarenites - and anyone else with relevant domains - get easier access to it. Most churches may have it if they have the level, but it'll be a matter of persuasion not gold and diamond dust.
To me, easily accessible resurrection has always created a logical problem for any setting.
How is any powerful enemy ever actually defeated? Why wouldn't they keep coming back as long as they had any minions at all willing to work to bring them back?
The level limits on resurrection magic can interfere with that, at least for extremely powerful creatures - even a 10th level Raise Dead only goes to level 21, so many of the biggest bads in the setting are too powerful to be affected.
Will probably make the resurrection ritual rare in my setting. While it'd still exist - it wouldn't be something reliably found in every campaign even if you put in significant effort.
Basically, in my setting the original afterlife plane was destroyed and different groups of deities made their own regional afterlife systems out of the fragments they could collect (after disagreeing about the best way to do it). Resurrection & Necromancy are only possible by deliberately exploiting the flaws in this patchwork system compared to the original - which most deities generally discourage. After all, if the system breaks again, no deity will be able to repair it & planar beings like devils/angels will exploit that to siphon off as many souls as they can to their own planes.
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I like the idea of having death be an imposing risk, encouraging players to approach danger with a bit more forethought, and make diplomacy more appealing when possible.
I have a rough concept in mind, although it's a bit math-y. The idea is to add another DC to a character, a Revive DC. The caster attempting to revive that character (through any spell), must make a spellcasting check against the DC. It's based on an inverse of Fortitude, making healthier characters easier to resurrect, and damaging their body's ability to recover each time.
~ Revive DC :: 30 + Level - CON bonus - FORT rank
~ Critical Success: Target is resurrected without negative effect.
~ Success: Target is resurrected, with a permanent -1 loss to Constitution, and Slowed 1 for one round.
~ Failure: Same as success, with an additional -1 loss to Constitution, and Slowed 1 for ten minutes. The Revive DC of that character permanently increases by 2.
~ Critical Failure: The spell fails. Roll a Flat DC 5 check. On failure, the character's life is permanently gone. On success, the Revive DC for that character permanently increases by 4.
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I'm really liking all the discussion of different ideas for this! This thread is a great example of using rarity as a conversation starter to springboard our imaginations about the dynamics of an individual world or game, and just with two (albeit metaphysically hugely impactful) spells. I'm really looking forward to getting a chance to play around with what sorts of settings we can imagine by altering our assumptions about rarity of various things!
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I'm curious - why is the idea of resurrection magic any more or less fantastical than any other magic in the setting, in that it needs to be so much more rare or restricted?
Or is it actually just the unpleasant thought that you think players popping up again and again from death eliminates tension?
Can your players' party actually afford that? Why are you showering them in diamonds, etc?
Is this a legit problem at tables or is it armchair math gone crazy?
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I'm curious - why is the idea of resurrection magic any more or less fantastical than any other magic in the setting, in that it needs to be so much more rare or restricted?
Or is it actually just the unpleasant thought that you think players popping up again and again from death eliminates tension?
Can your players' party actually afford that? Why are you showering them in diamonds, etc?Is this a legit problem at tables or is it armchair math gone crazy?
Well, I recently lost a character in a D&D game, and decided very quickly that any resurrection attempts by other party members would fail (as the gm told me it would be my call as to whether the spirit would be willing to return), as my characters death was a very dramatic moment in the story and that loss had a big effect on the party. My character died at a perfect moment to set up the main villain and I feel that her returning to life would undercut the raising of the stakes that her death established, and the impact of her death.
So at least in my own example, I feel that even one resurrection would mess up the tension and stakes and character development of the campaign.
I really like that Pathfinder 2 restricts it to a ritual (a momentous, time consuming ritual with chances of failure and requiring the involvement of the whole party gives it the gravitas that bringing a friend back from the dead deserves) and that it is uncommon.
I am thinking of actually increasing the rarity for the resurrection ritual to rare with my group, as it is a particularly powerful reward that deserves its own adventure to track down.
Another reason I think it makes sense to be rare is the implications to certain plots in a fantasy world - if you have a plot where say, the king dies, and there is a succession crisis of some kind, then resurrection rituals being uncommon kind of makes you wonder why it isn't standard practice to try and resurrect every monarch or powerful noble who dies - people with that much power and influence should be capable enough of tracking down people and items of uncommon rarity.
I'm curious - why is the idea of resurrection magic any more or less fantastical than any other magic in the setting, in that it needs to be so much more rare or restricted?
Or is it actually just the unpleasant thought that you think players popping up again and again from death eliminates tension?
Can your players' party actually afford that? Why are you showering them in diamonds, etc?Is this a legit problem at tables or is it armchair math gone crazy?
It's got nothing to do with players (hence why I've already worked out a couple of ways to give PCs access to both forms) but about the setting. Most fantasy stories don't have person dying = go to the local priest and get a raise dead. The only one I can think of where death is that easily overcome is Wheel of Time:
So I don't think there's anything antagonistic about it towards players.
Another reason I think it makes sense to be rare is the implications to certain plots in a fantasy world - if you have a plot where say, the king dies, and there is a succession crisis of some kind, then resurrection rituals being uncommon kind of makes you wonder why it isn't standard practice to try and resurrect every monarch or powerful noble who dies - people with that much power and influence should be capable enough of tracking down people and items of uncommon rarity.
I feel like this problem exists no matter the rarity of the spell though.
It's a massive gaping hole in setting design of D&D settings that monarchs aren't just resurrecting through assassination attempts.Because believe me, if you think the party is wealthy? Woah boy, the royalty makes you look like paupers!
So if, for instance, Golarion has resurrection spells but assassinated important people aren't being resurrected, it's up to the setting designer's to throw a bone as to why that is.
Are assassins smart enough to know what body parts are necessary for a Raise Dead to work correctly?
Is the idea that the vast majority of every population is very low level and the party (and villains) are extremely rare? (What a lonely setting for heroes that would be!)
Are resurrection attempts being foiled by subterfuge?
There's plenty of ways to explain away this problem, but it just... hasn't been explained away. Not usually. Not ever?
And I'm definitely not trying to point a finger at Paizo here - their not addressing it is just following suit in a looong list of other D&D settings who also potentially have this problem and haven't addressed it at all.
All it takes is a footnote in a lore book, but it's a pretty important footnote!
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Paizo has addressed it because things like final blade exist. You can find more info about them in a sidebar of a lore book (Lost Omens World Guide).
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In Golarion, rich people get resurrected all the time. Assassins have to take that into account, and there’s at least one murder/kidnapping mystery centered around a wealthy man’s soul being held ransom.
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I'm curious - why is the idea of resurrection magic any more or less fantastical than any other magic in the setting, in that it needs to be so much more rare or restricted?
Or is it actually just the unpleasant thought that you think players popping up again and again from death eliminates tension?
Can your players' party actually afford that? Why are you showering them in diamonds, etc?Is this a legit problem at tables or is it armchair math gone crazy?
Aside from what others have said already, easy ressurection is rarely reflected in most works of fiction outside of D&D based settings. Even in settings where death is a revolving door it usually isn't as rote as D&D. No one stays dead in comics in practice besides Uncle Ben, but they still have a unique plot device for every ressurection. That way the veneer of death being final is maintained.
Even in Dragonball, where the same plot device is used to bring people back all the time, said McGuffin is something that intergalactic wars are fought over.
Ressurection being easy in D&D is basically just a holdover from when it was a lot easier to die. It's not that easy anymore, so we don't really need the same easy access.
Aside from what others have said already, easy ressurection is rarely reflected in most works of fiction outside of D&D based settings. Even in settings where death is a revolving door it usually isn't as rote as D&D. No one stays dead in comics in practice besides Uncle Ben, but they still have a unique plot device for every ressurection. That way the veneer of death being final is maintained.
Even in Dragonball, where the same plot device is used to bring people back all the time, said McGuffin is something that intergalactic wars are fought over.
Ressurection being easy in D&D is basically just a holdover from when it was a lot easier to die. It's not that easy anymore, so we don't really need the same easy access.
I would argue it's actually pretty common, it just depends on how fantastical the setting is.
And Pathfinder is drastically more fantastical than older editions of D&D.You already mention comics as a big one (yes, it's a plot device every time, but it still happens every. time.)
Anime and manga is another, where resurrection is relatively common with the mentioned example of Dragon Ball simply being the most egregious (and Dragon Ball absolutely does get to the point where it's so easy it's handled offstage as an afterthought.)
It's commonality being based on how lethal the game is or isn't doesn't really seem particularly relevant or at question here.
I'm just curious why it's availability is such a contentious point? Once upon a time, adventuring groups didn't go adventuring without a cleric. Now, that "role" has spread further than the cleric alone, but the strategy still stands - you bring the heals because when fighting Dragons, you'd still like to go home at the end of the day. And in a world with said Dragons, that's probably gonna require some Raise Deading. :)
Another reason I think it makes sense to be rare is the implications to certain plots in a fantasy world - if you have a plot where say, the king dies, and there is a succession crisis of some kind, then resurrection rituals being uncommon kind of makes you wonder why it isn't standard practice to try and resurrect every monarch or powerful noble who dies - people with that much power and influence should be capable enough of tracking down people and items of uncommon rarity.I feel like this problem exists no matter the rarity of the spell though.
It's a massive gaping hole in setting design of D&D settings that monarchs aren't just resurrecting through assassination attempts.
Because believe me, if you think the party is wealthy? Woah boy, the royalty makes you look like paupers!So if, for instance, Golarion has resurrection spells but assassinated important people aren't being resurrected, it's up to the setting designer's to throw a bone as to why that is.
Are assassins smart enough to know what body parts are necessary for a Raise Dead to work correctly?
Is the idea that the vast majority of every population is very low level and the party (and villains) are extremely rare? (What a lonely setting for heroes that would be!)
Are resurrection attempts being foiled by subterfuge?
There's plenty of ways to explain away this problem, but it just... hasn't been explained away. Not usually. Not ever?And I'm definitely not trying to point a finger at Paizo here - their not addressing it is just following suit in a looong list of other D&D settings who also potentially have this problem and haven't addressed it at all.
All it takes is a footnote in a lore book, but it's a pretty important footnote!
In PF1 Assassins had abilities to thwart resurrecting their targets in the Assassin prestige class. In PF2, it seems this needs to be handled by structuring the region. Many leaders in golarion were level 13 or higher, so it is not implausible that the local clergy with raise dead do not have the ritual to the correct level. Even with them having it, threats that irritated the lady of graves do not return from death. And there is a decent chance the ritual fails anyway. Most would still try, but there is a higher fail rate than before. And the church of pharasma might not be too keen on performing it, given the chance of creating undead, so places where that is the prominent temple will likely take some heavy convincing.