Hello all,
I'm contemplating a Cleric just for the sheer number of heals they have. However I see that a Cleric of Gorum could actually make a respectable melee combatant also. With spells like true Strike and Enlarge he seems like he could be formidable indeed. Just wondering if i started with a 12 WIS and put boosts into Wis every 5 levels (keeping in mind Warpriest slow spell progression) how likely would I be able to land the 4th level spell Weapon Storm at level 7, 11, and 15 let's say.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=373
Also is this a class that can work with a group consisting of a barbarian, wild druid, and a rogue? Is Chaotic Neutral essentially a wild man or could it work?
At level 7 compared with a full caster you are 20% less likely to make the target fail the saving throw (DC 25 vs DC 21).
At lvl 11 10% less likely (DC 30 vs DC 28).
At lvl 15 15% less likely (DC 36 vs DC 33).
A good rule of thumb, one which one of the devs demonstrated the math on, is that +3 attack (or in this case Save DC) does 50% more damage, at least for basic attacks & basic saves w/ criticals involved.
So at level 7, with your 14 to a spell-focused Cleric at 18/19, you do about 75% the damage (they do 1/3 more).
A Cloistered Cleric just got a proficiency bump, so that's a +4 advantage so they do about 2/3 more damage w/ Weapon Storm than you do.
At 11th, you catch up in proficiency, but then let's say you're 16 to their 20. So you're at 3/4 to both.
At 15th, you're 18 to their 20/21, so only +1 advantage, so you're doing about 5/6 the damage.
Unless they're Cloistered. Getting another proficiency bump, they're now +3, at +50% damage above you.
And True Strike is much better as a Heal until later levels when there are still too few to base a build around. Though they're nice on top of an already good build w/ Greatsword & 16+ Str. The fact you can 2-action Heal an ally/yourself and still get in a Strike is pretty sweet. Would not recommend Enlarge, at least not on yourself.
As good as the Greatsword/Weapon Storm combo looks, it still requires focus on casting. A low-stat caster should shelf it beside the other offensive spells, especially when a proficiency rank behind.
And yes, the sheer number of Heals is a tremendous game-changer.
And there are exceptional circumstances that defy all that advice. :)
Cheers
Weapon Storm is gonna be rough to land, but for sure 12 WIS is pretty good and you'll kick ass in melee! Keep that spell for cleaning up mooks, I guess.
I guess I can't do much in order to make Weaponstorm really viable, here's my statline:
Human Cleric of Gorum
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16
I'm trying to basically have weapon storm work (even if it's just against mooks that would work) the other spells I want to not critically fails are harm, because I plan to get Cast Down at level 6. So if I can use 2-3 of my low levels slot on Harm to Prone enemies using Cast Down that is great, anything other than a critical fail will work there. I think I value (for this specific build only) Charisma moreso then Wisdom for the sheer number of heals, it's probably going to be more valuable than having a higher Wisdom to land some offensive spells. I'm planning on just doing melee damage with this character, early levels will cast Magic Weapon and the occasional True Strike, later on once I have an actual magical weapon I'll replace the spell with Harm (at level 6). I don't expect to really use any offensive spells at all, I don't believe the Wisdom will be high enough to effect bosses with any sort of reliability, so instead of getting Searing Light or something for a level 3 spells I would opt for multiple Heroisms possibly.
I'm trying to basically have weapon storm work (even if it's just against mooks that would work) the other spells I want to not critically fails are harm, because I plan to get Cast Down at level 6. So if I can use 2-3 of my low levels slot on Harm to Prone enemies using Cast Down that is great, anything other than a critical fail will work there. I think I value (for this specific build only) Charisma moreso then Wisdom for the sheer number of heals, it's probably going to be more valuable than having a higher Wisdom to land some offensive spells. I'm planning on just doing melee damage with this character, early levels will cast Magic Weapon and the occasional True Strike, later on once I have an actual magical weapon I'll replace the spell with Harm (at level 6). I don't expect to really use any offensive spells at all, I don't believe the Wisdom will be high enough to effect bosses with any sort of reliability, so instead of getting Searing Light or something for a level 3 spells I would opt for multiple Heroisms possibly.
You're right that stats can't support being excellent all around, and War Priests fall behind on casting proficiency anyway, so I say go with the Charisma for the Heals that will let you stand in the front!
I might balance this against the Rogue's intentions re: Charisma & face skills and the Druid's intention re: Wisdom & getting Medicine (w/ the feats to improve it).
Cast Down should be pretty funny w/ such a melee-heavy party and a low-level Harm/Heal. You don't want to use a high-level slot, as you'll lose a lot of the spell's oomph. It's really just an auto-trip at range, not very good for damaging due to the DC.
Heal will nearly always be your best spell BTW. Paizo may have over-corrected there, given how dull healing is.
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Ya I plan on going Intimidate, Medicine and Athletics. Ya I was hoping to just use a couple level 1 and 2 slots maybe later on for Harm to auto trip someone hopefully so the Rogue can capitalize and so can our barbarian with his AOO and our MC druid/fighter with his AOO.
Does a Chaotic Neutral character work? How does one act?
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Does a Chaotic Neutral character work? How does one act?
I have no idea what Chaotic Neutral means to you, your GM, your fellow players, or how it impacts the prospective campaign.
A classic joke is to call CN the alignment for players who want to pretend their evil PC isn't evil. Heck, in the original D&D, there was Law & Chaos w/ no Good or Evil alignments. Another joke is that CN translates as Chaotic Stupid.
If you think CN needs to sow chaos, then obviously that interferes with party cohesion and linear storytelling. If you think of CN in the Golarion sense of independence and promoting personal agency above group agendas and most definitely above hierarchies, then your PC will fit in better...assuming the other personalities are okay with that.
CN isn't about in-group/out-group, but about individuals, which can lead to some interesting RPing. "I'm going to judge this monster/cultist/etc. on his own traits, not those of his peers."
I think more important than alignment is what matters to your PC. What do they seek to accomplish? What do they do in their leisure time? What do they want to learn?
CN is often framed as what it stands against (hierarchy, legalism, and groupthink), but what does your CN PC stand FOR?
Being Chaotic Good of course makes this much easier.
There are alignment questionnaires online that may help too.
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Another word for "Chaotic Neutral" is "True Chaotic".
TC people can work in a team, form meaningful relationships, have a morale compass, and express nuanced personality with a free will, just like everybody else.
Then, figure out what "Chaos" means to you, and pepper that meaning into the realistic, sentient, feeling person described in the preceding sentence.
Add the tenets and anathma of your deity and you should be good to go.
Optional step: become aware of the hyperbole associated with this legitimate alignment. I'm sure someone will pop in and demonstrate...
Intimidating Prowess and Battle Cry.
Frightened reduces Saving Throws.
Might want to 18 ST so that at 10th level you have 20 ST and that second +1 kicks in?
Or if you are willing to wait until 12th level you can MCD Sorcerer?
Or do both?
Don't think it's possible to start with 18 STR?
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Does a Chaotic Neutral character work? How does one act?
I'd say rather than ask "how does a Chaotic Neutral character work?", the better question is "How does a worshiper of Gorum work?"
I think asking questions about the god your character chose to worship and why that character made that choice, rather than about the alignment itself, will help you get a better idea about how to RP your character.
Indeed, how would one RP a Cleric of Gorum in a party of mostly other chaotic characters with the exception of the Druid/Fighter MC not sure what alignment he is.
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Indeed, how would one RP a Cleric of Gorum...?
The last character I played was an inquisitor of Gorum. She did as she pleased and let others do the same, as long as they didn't interfere with her business. She generally felt that weak people deserved what they got, but tended to confront those who abused their strength--both because she didn't like a-holes and for the chance to prove her worth to Gorum in case he was watching.
She never backed down from a challenge she had a chance of winning, which caused the rest of the party some consternation. They once stranded her on the wrong side of a portcullis, facing a giant and a bunch of orcs (Quick! Name the AP!). She didn't mind; she survived, they came back for her, and not everyone has the guts to stick things out.
tl;dr: Go watch Sergio Leone's "Once Upon a Time in the West". Either that or Schwarzenegger's first Conan movie; Gorum's essentially Crom, after all. You'll get the idea.
Don't think it's possible to start with 18 STR?Intimidating Prowess and Battle Cry.
Frightened reduces Saving Throws.
Might want to 18 ST so that at 10th level you have 20 ST and that second +1 kicks in?
Or if you are willing to wait until 12th level you can MCD Sorcerer?
Or do both?
You can, but it involves using the ‘Optional Flaw’ mechanic during character creation. This is where you voluntarily take additional Flaw in two separate ability scores (can be the same score if ancestry gives you a boost to it, but can not be applied to a score which already as a ancestry flaw) to increase one other score (can be a score already boosted by ancestry) during the ancestry part of the character creation process.
A 18 Str Cleric would be possible at LV1, by gaining two ancestry boosts to Str, using the optional Flaw feature, at the cost of lowering generally two other scores.
This intrigues me, here's what my numbers might look like before the optional flaw feature:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16
So with the flaw feature could it look like this:
Str 18
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16
Can anyone confirm this?
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No, you can't have strength 18 as a first level cleric. The optional flaws are are part of the ancestry selection and you can't boost strength twice during any one character creation step.
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Does a Chaotic Neutral character work? How does one act?
you in general balk at the law, at least thinking laws personally hamper you but this belief might also extend to other people, so you might think people would be better off in a freer less stuck in stone society.
the good parts of chaotic are supposed to be free and quick thinking and self reliance.
one of the anathema of Gorum is to prevent conflict through negotiation, in general his edicts are to push yourself and fight head on.
No, you can't have strength 18 as a first level cleric. The optional flaws are are part of the ancestry selection and you can't boost strength twice during any one character creation step.
also this is 100% correct, for instance it turns a dwarf ancestral bonuses to Con, Wis, Freex2 + charisma flaw and 2 free flaws.
Just a real quick question everyone, if I start with a 12 Wis would I still be able to Castdown enemies or are they going to Crit save too often with that low if a Wisdom to start off with? It would effectively be 14 Wis by the time Castdown comes online.
Define respectable?
I'd never consider expert in weapons and armor as respectable for a melee combatant. I don't care how you are buffing yourself (wasting actions for setup when you could just buff an actual melee combatant and fulfill your only good purpose, being a caster, Wich you handicapped in exchange for pretending to be a melee in the first half of your character's career).
But if you don't ever get to... Level 3 or so. You are good.
Ohh, ya so vs a boss it may be a 50/50 at best. That's not good.
Out of curiosity why do you have 12 Dex? Why not drop that to 10 and find a way to grab some full plate.
Gorum is known as "Our Lord in Iron," after all--he likes his clerics to be armored up.
No STR 18 and no DEX 12 can make the first 4 levels a little rougher as you either miss out 1 AC (if you stay with medium armour) or additional 5 feet of movement (e.g. taking the full -10 movement penalty for Plate).
Out of curiosity why do you have 12 Dex? Why not drop that to 10 and find a way to grab some full plate.
Gorum is known as "Our Lord in Iron," after all--he likes his clerics to be armored up.
Ya it was either that or INT, I suppose INT would have been slightly better.
Ya it was either that or INT, I suppose INT would have been slightly better.Out of curiosity why do you have 12 Dex? Why not drop that to 10 and find a way to grab some full plate.
Gorum is known as "Our Lord in Iron," after all--he likes his clerics to be armored up.
The way I’d do it as a human would be to use an Ancestry feat or Versatile Heritage to get armor proficiency at level 1, so you can use heavy armor right out of the gate. At level 2, I’d then get Sentinel Dedication, since that archetype is great at boosting up heavy armor builds, and retrain the Level 1 general feat into fleet, to help mitigate the speed penalty of the armor.