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They never existed.
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Do you need a lore justification for every spell that no longer exists? How upset are your players that the very concept of blood money has vanished into the ether
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If you REALLY need this justified, just say that Tar-Baphon's breaking of the seal around him stole away those magics. Or he himself went through a ritual to stop magical stat buffs because of it being used against him.
You can honestly say anything, you're the GM. Here's a fun example.
"Hey, GM, why are there no more stat buffs spells? Why wouldn't someone recreate them?"
"Nethys himself in a fit of madness forgot them, causing the magic to cease to be."
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As long as you are running your own game and can houserule whatever you want, just remake those spells in the style of PF2e and make sure to let your npcs and monsters have access to thise spells where appropriate.
If you find it makes your players too powerful, beef up your monsters a smidge.
That's the beauty of table top role playing, you are never fully beholden to the rules.
I for one have a huge problem with all the alternate racial trates being gone, so I'm writing a system to add them back in.
I want my ancestries to be crunchier.
So I'm making them so.
Now that I know about the situation with the spells, I'll probably add those back in, too.
Point being, you don't necessarily need a narrative explanation when you can just add things back in and adjust things on the fly.
Otherwise, well if it was me, I'd tie it to the closing of the worldwound having a significant impact on how magic works on a technical level.
The current state of things is just a function of how much magic users have been able to rediscover in the last few years.
Just my two cents.
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My assumption would be that they'll be back in a forthcoming book. Very possibly the APG.
Not literally in the sense of giving actual Ability bonuses, of course, but in-universe something that gives you a Status bonus on Strength checks and damage and a magic bonus to Strength cannot readily be distinguished. And given the existence of Heroism, spells that boost particular Ability-based checks seem pretty balanced.
That being the case, I'm pretty positive that such spells (possibly in the form of one 'Enhance Ability' spells) will show up again, and probably soon. So I wouldn't worry too much about any in-universe changes.
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I actually think Bull's Strength or something like it is totally possible, granting a +1-3 (depending on Heightening) Status bonus to Strength-related checks and damage. That's less powerful than Heroism by quite a bit, so it could easily work. Ditto other Ability checks.
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I've got one from
Alaznist did a lot of messing with time. Karzoug was once her greatest rival. She probably hates transmutation. Some of her temporal changes might have been designed to amp up evocation and destroy the other schools' capabilities.
The PCs, so focused on stopping her more obvious manipulations missed the unexpected subtle manipulations to the time stream.
It's taken a few months, but time-whimy stuff like this acts on its own schedule.
Since no one has anything powerful enough to undo the damage now, you're stuck with these changes.
EDIT: and if player's complain, "nope, sorry, timeline's been changed, you can't remember anyone ever being able to do that."
so like alchemy, but spells?
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THere have been quite a few changes, not just to spells. Are you going to come up with an in universe reason why characters need a feat to get attack of opportunity? Why wands work differently? Why 10th level magic exists? Why shield block is a thing now, but nobody for thousands of years prior thought to block with their shields?
To each their own, I suppose, but for me, “ it’s a new edition of the game and some things work differently” is a perfectly servicable reason, and far simpler than trying to come up with in-universe explanations for all of that.
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There were a number of people asking this about Starfinder too. I made a thread for in-universe reasons.
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So retconned out of existence?
I don't think that would fly with my players. Esp the wizard, he's definitely try to research some asap.
I might go with the gods of magic having to change the structure of magic for some reason. Would also explain why so many spells are no longer possible for certain casters, while others have had their spells completely revamped/added.
Still, I need some sensible reason as to why this had to happen. The realms forgotten had a spellplague, so maybe something like that?
Anyone got some good ideas I can nick?
It is a new foundation. Not as much retconned as not part of the new foundation. With that mindset, are all the magic items and classes ret-conned out because they aren't released yet, even though they have been in the setting?
The sensible reason is: This is a new foundation for golario and paizo. The characters in game never actually experienced them. The same way a fighter could have been an arcane archer but now can't. You don't need to explain why suddenly that prestige or archetype is gone, they never were there.
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Yeah we're likely to get Anthaul but not Bull's Strength back.
Ant Haul will not be released in any of the future books. Why? Click here for answer!
Not literally in the sense of giving actual Ability bonuses, of course, but in-universe something that gives you a Status bonus on Strength checks and damage and a magic bonus to Strength cannot readily be distinguished. And given the existence of Heroism, spells that boost particular Ability-based checks seem pretty balanced.
Honestly, I hope they don't make those spells for a different reason. I'm tired that Transmutation is chock full of situational spells. "It's a great spell if X, Y, Z are satisfied!". It's boring, uninspiring, and forces you to play a buffbot caster.
It's one of the reasons I am so vocally dissatisfied with Transmutation Focus Spell. It's a pure buffbot spell, and due to the extremely short duration, it gives exactly 0 flavour. "I give you magic muscles for 6 seconds!"
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THere have been quite a few changes, not just to spells. Are you going to come up with an in universe reason why characters need a feat to get attack of opportunity? Why wands work differently? Why 10th level magic exists? Why shield block is a thing now, but nobody for thousands of years prior thought to block with their shields?
To each their own, I suppose, but for me, “ it’s a new edition of the game and some things work differently” is a perfectly servicable reason, and far simpler than trying to come up with in-universe explanations for all of that.
Yeah, I figure most of these things are abstractions anyway. So there's a bit of room to mess with things. Kind of like how prices have changed. The exact pricing of things isn't really important world lore, same with exact spell effects. But I do think Deadmanwalking is right about how these spells will likely be done if they return, and that it's very possible that they will.
I'm hoping a lot of classic spells and items do come back in later books. I miss the Portable Hole, and this joke being relevant. Also fun crazy spells like Mad Monkeys (seriously, how can anyone not think that spell is awesome, everything is funnier with monkeys) and Explode Head (it even does area of effect damage from the head-shrapnel! HEAD-SHRAPNEL!!) Also more serious spells like the whole Create Pit line (great combat control, at least in theory, almost every time I saw it used they saved or were able to climb right out. I'm still a bit bitter that the magus didn't get those, so they could make a pit and then shove someone into them, seems perfect for the Magus. There's some potential for that kind of use with the new action system), or Blood Biography (great for investigations, it might need some refinement to keep it from being a plot-destroyer though).
That's one reason it being a generic 'Enhance Ability' spell appeals. That lets you list it in the book as one spell and makes preparing it less situational.
Ah, okay, you'd make it a single spell. That would be okay, although personally I'm not looking forward to it particularly. Also, I expect they'd be 1 minute duration under the new system.
I thought you're talking about them as a "class" of spells, much like there was 6 same spells that only differed in ability modifier (and 6 more Mass versions).
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Ah, okay, you'd make it a single spell. That would be okay, although personally I'm not looking forward to it particularly. Also, I expect they'd be 1 minute duration under the new system.
I think it's a necessary thematic bit, and that buffs are actually super underrepresented at the moment. For direct buffs to Skills for example, there's pretty much only Heroism, which is a good spell, but shouldn't be the only one available.
And yes, I'd definitely expect a 1 minute duration.
I thought you're talking about them as a "class" of spells, much like there was 6 same spells that only differed in ability modifier (and 6 more Mass versions).
I actually do think you probably have two, one for the single target version and then a mass version. It gets awkward having two completely different Heighten effects on one spell after all.
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Yeah we're likely to get Anthaul but not Bull's Strength back.Ant Haul will not be released in any of the future books. Why? Click here for answer!
Yay! We got Ant Haul back!
I think it's a necessary thematic bit, and that buffs are actually super underrepresented at the moment. For direct buffs to Skills for example, there's pretty much only Heroism, which is a good spell, but shouldn't be the only one available.
It isn't. For general bonus, you have Guidance, which being a cantrip is quite useful.
Then there is a bunch of other spells that give bonuses on specific skills, like the Physical Boost Focus Spell or Illusionary Disguise / Humanoid Form for disugises via Deception.I actually do think you probably have two, one for the single target version and then a mass version. It gets awkward having two completely different Heighten effects on one spell after all.
Oh, I don't mind that, so long as it isn't different spell for every ability score.
Although as I say, I find those spells boring. Personally I want more morphing/polymorphing spells.
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It isn't. For general bonus, you have Guidance, which being a cantrip is quite useful.
Then there is a bunch of other spells that give bonuses on specific skills, like the Physical Boost Focus Spell or Illusionary Disguise / Humanoid Form for disugises via Deception.
I was exaggerating a tad. But for a lot of Skills you really are down to Guidance or Heroism and nothing else.
Oh, I don't mind that, so long as it isn't different spell for every ability score.
Although as I say, I find those spells boring. Personally I want more morphing/polymorphing spells.
I'm all for more polymorphs as well, but 'spell to make me stronger' is a bit too iconic not to exist when there's a mechanically balanced way to make it, IMO.
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The reason these spells no longer exist is that their mechanic does not fit well with the math of the new system. Apex items increase an ability score by 2 or to 18 whichever is better, but they are level 17 items. That is something very different from, say, a first edition belt of giant strength +2. Bull strength was a +4 bonus, and would, by this measure, probably be a much higher level spell.
If you really need the spells,I could imagine them as giving bonuses that are basically inverse to the encumbered, clumsy, drained, or stupefied conditions. Maybe something like this:
BULL'S STRENGTH SPELL 2
TRANSMUTATION
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] material, somatic, verbal
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute
You gain a +1 status bonus to Strength-based rolls and DCs, including Strength-based melee attack rolls, Strength-based damage rolls, and skill checks using Athletics.
Heightened (+2) The bonus increases by +1.
CAT'S GRACE SPELL 2
TRANSMUTATION
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] material, somatic, verbal
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute
You gain a +1 status bonus Dexterity-based checks and DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.
Heightened (+2) The bonus increases by +1.
BEAR'S ENDURANCE SPELL 2
TRANSMUTATION
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] material, somatic, verbal
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute
You gain a +1 status bonus Constitution-based checks, such as Fortitude saves. You also gain a number of temporary Hit Points equal to your level.
Heightened (+2) The bonus increases by +1, and you gain an additional number of temporary Hit Points equal to your level.
FOX'S CUNNING SPELL 2
TRANSMUTATION
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] material, somatic, verbal
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute
You gain a +1 status bonus on Intelligence-based checks and DCs, including spell attack rolls and spell DCs, if based on Intelligence, and skill checks using Arcana, Crafting, Lore, Occultism, and Society.
Heightened (+2) The bonus increases by +1.
OWL'S WISDOM SPELL 2
TRANSMUTATION
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] material, somatic, verbal
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute
You gain a +1 status bonus on Wisdom-based checks and DCs, including spell attack rolls and spell DCs, if based on Wisdom, and skill checks using Medicine, Nature, Religion, and Survival.
Heightened (+2) The bonus increases by +1.
EAGLE'S SPLENDOR SPELL 2
TRANSMUTATION
Traditions arcane, divine, primal
Cast [two-actions] material, somatic, verbal
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute
You gain a +1 status bonus on Charisma-based checks and DCs, including spell attack rolls and spell DCs, if based on Charisma, and skill checks using Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, and Performance.
Heightened (+2) The bonus increases by +1.
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Nethys came down and explained that the Devs didn't think continuity was a big deal, so just do whatever.
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Bull's Strength - level 2 spell. Has an ant-haul effect to increase your carrying capacity. Lets you use oversized weapons like a titan barbarian. Provides no bonus to attack, and even your damage is only increased if you happen to have an oversized weapon.
One time during the spell you can upgrade a Strength check by one step (crit fail > fail > success > crit success).
Cat's Grace - level 2 spell. Negates falling damage and lets you land on your feet. One time during the spell you can upgrade a Reflex save or Dex check by one step.
Bear's Endurance - level 2 spell. Quadruples how long you can hold your breath. One time during the spell you can upgrade a Fortitude save (or Con check? do those still exist?) by one step.
I'll figure out the mental ones later.
Nethys came down and explained that the Devs didn't think continuity was a big deal, so just do whatever.
Kind of how you could play a shifter and now you can't? Literally unplayable.
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Ah yes, remember to explain the in lore reasons why characters can now move 5ft, open a door and then move through said door in one 6 second period.
Previously this required magic or extraordinary abilities to be able to do in PF1e :P ;)
Or, how previously wizards could just auto succeed memorizing new spells with spellcraft and now have a chance at failure if they don't take precautions.
Organized Play Developer
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The sensible reason is: This is a new foundation for Golarion and Paizo. The characters in game never actually experienced them. The same way a fighter could have been an arcane archer but now can't. You don't need to explain why suddenly that prestige or archetype is gone, they never were there.
You can be an arcane archer, it just means something different (most likely that you're an elf sorcerer with Elven Weapon Familiarity, Bespell Weapon, and maybe a fighter multiclass feat or two). Archetype names (particularly super generic ones like arcane archers) are often just labels for bundles of mechanics associated with a "person who does this particular thing". In-world, any character who practices archery and arcane magic has just as much claim to the title "arcane archer" as someone with an archetype that actually has that name on it. There are exceptions, of course (like archetypes that are named after a position in an in-world organization, such as Pathfinder Chronicler, Red Mantis Assassin, or Hellknight).
Generally speaking, class names, spell names, and such are player facing, not necessarily in-world terminology. Going around calling every angry warrior you meet a barbarian is likely to get you hung from a lamp post or prickly tree in some places, and it's pretty unlikely that anyone is going to self-referentially call themselves a rogue or champion (and much more likely that someone who does self-reference themselves by either of those names isn't actually a member of either class).
Similarly, not every spell is going to be called the exact same thing by every culture that has a version of it, regardless of what the players are declaring as their action at the table. It's highly unlikely that Dwarven, Elven, and Common/Taldan are even conjugated the same way (let alone Goblin), so even something like acid arrow might literally be "acid arrow" in e.g. Absalom, but be better known as "Elivandrielle's Dart Caustic" in Kyonin and "statue polisher" in the Five Kings Mountains.
If a new "Augment Ability" spell was added that could be memorized or learned coded to a particular stat and the effect was something like DMW mentioned above like a status bonus on Strength checks and damage, there wouldn't be an in-world reason to explain why these work differently; the framework of the game mechanics, which characters in-world don't directly interact with at all, changed, but the characters experience the elements in the exact same way. Folks in Absalom would probably still colloquially refer to "augment ability (STR)" as "Bull's Strength" and over on Mediogalti Island the monkey goblins still probably call it "Lamashtu's Blessing for Making Longshanks Fall Down".
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Yeah, let's go for:
Enhance Ability
Spell 2
Transmutation
Traditions Arcane, Divine, Occult, Primal
Cast 2 actions (somatic, verbal)
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute
Choose an ability score. Once during the spell's duration, the target may add +10 a skill check or saving throw that uses that ability score. They may decide when to use this after rolling. Even if the target is affected by another casting of this spell, they cannot add that bonus again until at least ten minutes have passed.
Additionally, the target gains a benefit based on the chosen ability score for the spell's duration.
- Strength - The target can carry 3 more bulk without becoming encumbered, and increases their maximum encumbrance by 6 bulk.
The target can choose to count as one size larger for the purpose of combat maneuvers such as grab and trip. The target can wield weapons one size larger than they normally could. Attacks with such weapons deal 2 extra damage. (The target deals no extra damage with weapons of a size they're already capable of wielding.)
- Dexterity - The target ignores damage from the first 100 feet of falls, and can land on their feet even if they do take damage.
The target's movement does not provoke attack of opportunity reactions. Balancing does not cause the target to become flat-footed.
- Constitution - The target can hold their breath four times as long as usual.
Whenever an attack or effect would deal physical damage, poison damage, bleed damage, or acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage to the target, reduce that damage by 1.
- Intelligence - The target can make one Recall Knowledge check as a free action on each of its turns.
For up to one day after the spell ends, the target can perfectly remember anything they sense during the spell's duration.
- Wisdom - The target only needs to succeed a flat check of DC 5 to target a hidden creature, and needs no check to target a concealed creature. A creature that is hidden from the target does not make the target flat-footed against its attacks.
- Charisma - The target is just, like, super cool. They can fix damaged jukeboxes just by fistbumping them.
Heightened (+3): The spell targets up to 6 creatures. For each target choose any one ability score to enhance.
Heightened (+4): The duration increases to 8 hours, and the target can add the +10 bonus to a skill check or saving throw once every 10 minutes.
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Spell names may not be character facing, but their effects have direct and measurable effects in universe. Spell A lasted 1 minute per level 10 years ago. Spell A now lasts only 1 minute unless cast at a higher level. Now my Wizard may have no conceptions of levels, but they do have a conception of an hourglass. My Wizard also keeps meticulous notes, so their notes either show the difference between the spell duration or they do not. That leaves 2 options: Things worked differently 10 years ago and an explanation is needed, or my Wizard's notes always said only 1 minute, and continuity doesn't matter.
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Spell names may not be character facing, but their effects have direct and measurable effects in universe. Spell A lasted 1 minute per level 10 years ago. Spell A now lasts only 1 minute unless cast at a higher level. Now my Wizard may have no conceptions of levels, but they do have a conception of an hourglass. My Wizard also keeps meticulous notes, so their notes either show the difference between the spell duration or they do not. That leaves 2 options: Things worked differently 10 years ago and an explanation is needed, or my Wizard's notes always said only 1 minute, and continuity doesn't matter.
Your Wizards notes always said 1 minute. This isn't a continuity issue. This is a whole new conception of how universe works, since forever.
@RangerWickett : +10 is far too much in this edition. +4 status is more like other spell bonuses.
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Spell names may not be character facing, but their effects have direct and measurable effects in universe. Spell A lasted 1 minute per level 10 years ago. Spell A now lasts only 1 minute unless cast at a higher level. Now my Wizard may have no conceptions of levels, but they do have a conception of an hourglass. My Wizard also keeps meticulous notes, so their notes either show the difference between the spell duration or they do not. That leaves 2 options: Things worked differently 10 years ago and an explanation is needed, or my Wizard's notes always said only 1 minute, and continuity doesn't matter.
Puts on casual hat.
I would argue that there is an option 3-
The duration of your spells isn't even the slightest bit relevant to continuity. From a cinematic perspective, the specific spell you used to do a thing is largely irrelevant to the story. It doesn't matter what big, flashy spell Dumbledore used to lay the smack down on Voldemort, what matters is that he put the smack down on Voldemort. It doesn't matter whether you used one slot-based casting of mage armor or three scrolls and no slots, or even just the raw "magic" of being a high level wizard with Expert unarmored proficiency, what matters is that in the moment a weapon struck you, magic made the attack miss (or at least not hurt as much). Mechanics and continuity have only the most loose association; it's not relevant to the story or a third-party observer whether Ezren incinerated a troll with orb of flame or fireball, what matters is that Ezren incinerated the troll. Mechanics are an expression of concepts, they are not the sole embodiment of the concept.
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Thanks, Michael, now I need to come up with lyrical-yet-unpronounceable Elven names for all my spells. :P
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Your Wizards notes always said 1 minute. This isn't a continuity issue. This is a whole new conception of how universe works, since forever.
Continuity: The unbroken and consistent existence or operation of something over a period of time.
So yes, the universe working differently is a continuity issue, as it is a retcon.
The duration of your spells isn't even the slightest bit relevant to continuity.
I disagree entirely, it very much does matter which spell and which effects are used. It isn't just important that Dumbledore beat Voldemort, how he beat him is just as, if not more, important. I mean, are you really going to claim it doesn't matter if Dumbledore used one of the Unforgivable Curses? Colored beam is a colored beam, important thing is you put the smack down on right?
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Yeah, let's go for:
Enhance Ability
Spell 2
Transmutation
Traditions Arcane, Divine, Occult, Primal
Cast 2 actions (somatic, verbal)
Range touch Targets 1 creature
Duration 1 minute...
You can accomplish any shenanigans you want through a House Rule, but if your question is whether or not it fits within the current bounds of the system then it does not seem to do so, especially with a "+10" bonus to a check.
Your best bet is either making it a Fortune effect and letting the user roll twice and take the better result on a particular type of check, or upgrade the effect of a check by one step which would be a lot more powerful.
Alternatively you could have it add a status bonus to a particular skill check of +2 or +3.
Honestly though in my opinion the system is better off without spells like Bull Strength, Cats Grace, etc.
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I disagree entirely, it very much does matter which spell and which effects are used. It isn't just important that Dumbledore beat Voldemort, how he beat him is just as, if not more, important. I mean, are you really going to claim it doesn't matter if Dumbledore used one of the Unforgivable Curses? Colored beam is a colored beam, important thing is you put the smack down on right?
An Unforgivable Curse is a weight-bearing term, and not even remotely close to what was being discussed. Like I already said, there's no difference at all between whether or not Dumbledore used flaming orb or fireball, or dumbledore's scintillating dragon ray to prismatic spray. In fact, it doesn't matter whether he beat Voldemort with a prismatic spray or a swarm of magic missiles. Heck, he could have hydraulic pushed Voldemort in front of a speeding mine cart and it wouldn't change the story (the tone maybe, but not the story).
Dumbledore doing [unforgivable thing] to win is a story element, but the nature of that [unforgivable thing] is only important insofar as the lasting effect that [unforgivable thing] has on the story. The spell he uses to beat Voldemort is not at all relevant, something that is actually emphasized by the fact that you had to bring in additional lore and "mechanics" to make it relevant. Which is also clearly far and away beyond the topic of discussion which is a much more minor change like "at what point did Dumbledore cast mage armor (assuming he even did), and did he use a spell slot or a scroll to do so?"
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Not needing to explain why spells no longer exist, or do something completely different mechanically is the same as not needing to explain why Rogues and Fighters no longer have different base-attack-bonuses, or that a Cleric now gets class feats, or that skills now have proficiencies and not ranks.
No person IN WORLD discussed rules mechanics. Period. They just existed in the world. Just like you don't have a conversation about the relative gravitational field strength at the height of the building versus the surface of the earth at sea level (or how sea level is an abstraction itself and varies by location), you just say that the item fell off the roof.
Yeah, let's go for:
Enhance Ability
You can accomplish any shenanigans you want through a House Rule, but if your question is whether or not it fits within the current bounds of the system then it does not seem to do so, especially with a "+10" bonus to a check.
Your best bet is either making it a Fortune effect and letting the user roll twice and take the better result on a particular type of check, or upgrade the effect of a check by one step which would be a lot more powerful.
Alternatively you could have it add a status bonus to a particular skill check of +2 or +3.
Honestly though in my opinion the system is better off without spells like Bull Strength, Cats Grace, etc.
All I'm saying, basically, is that once during the spell you can upgrade a save or skill check one step: crit fail > fail > success > crit success.
That's a lot more narratively interesting than a +2 bonus that most of the time won't make any difference.
All I'm saying, basically, is that once during the spell you can upgrade a save or skill check one step: crit fail > fail > success > crit success.
That's a lot more narratively interesting than a +2 bonus that most of the time won't make any difference.
It's also significantly more powerful in terms of game balance. Especially for the level of spell.