Ok, cool, tell me how the builds represent someone who is both a master swordsman, and a master spellcaster (which even with his condition, he has to be, because otherwise he couldn't make higher level riffle scrolls), and has an animal companion, and is both a wizard and sorcerer.
If you think I meant it was impossible to make a build, rather than that it was impossible to make a build that accurate depicts his capabilities in the novels, then I don't even know what to say. Because clearly ANYTHING can have a build if you don't worry about being accurate to the fiction. I could stat up a red dragon using only character ancestries and classes, but it would have a hard time being 100% accurate to what a red dragon can do in the fiction.
And claiming that he has to have two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BASE CLASSES at different points of his career absolutely, 100% supports the "he can't be statted accurately in Pathfinder using the character creation rules." Because that isn't possible in Pathfinder. And hasn't been in either edition.
A single fighter dip or even just weapon focus(rapier) represents that fine. Wizards get BAB as well you know. And again, the creator of the character disagrees with you. He has a build which he uses to keep track of what the character would be able to do in the novel. So, point of fact, the build does represent his abilities in the novels.
So are you claiming you know the character better? That you know the 1E system and the novels better? Do you have any evidence to back up your nonsense?
You were the one who claimed that he would be two different classes depending on the point in his career.
How are you going to call what I say nonsense and demand I explain it when you won't even defend your own statements?
You seem to want me to go into ever more and more detail but you are required to defend nothing you say.
(Also nice sidestep on just trying to explain one of the many things I pointed out he was (master swordsman and master spellcaster) without addressing the rest of what I said.)
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And claiming that he has to have two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BASE CLASSES at different points of his career absolutely, 100% supports the "he can't be statted accurately in Pathfinder using the character creation rules." Because that isn't possible in Pathfinder. And hasn't been in either edition.
The retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign for PF1 do allow retraining class levels, so someone who has enough time and money could change his base class.
To do this in PF2, you would have to define the downtime required to change your base class since you would not be able to retrain one level at a time as you could in PF1.
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And claiming that he has to have two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BASE CLASSES at different points of his career absolutely, 100% supports the "he can't be statted accurately in Pathfinder using the character creation rules." Because that isn't possible in Pathfinder. And hasn't been in either edition.The retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign for PF1 do allow retraining class levels, so someone who has enough time and money could change his base class.
To do this in PF2, you would have to define the downtime required to change your base class since you would not be able to retrain one level at a time as you could in PF1.
Fair enough, I wasn't aware that the Ultimate Campaign added retraining class levels.
That said, in PF2 there isn't any rules for it at all, and could only be done with GM Fiat. But anything can be done with GM Fiat, so at that point you are entirely outside of the claim that the classes represent literal restrictions in the game world on what people can learn. And considering that it was a response to him saying that he would stat him as Wizard with Fighter Dedication or Sorcerer with Fighter Dedication depending on his point in his career, he was talking about PF2e.
You were the one who claimed that he would be two different classes depending on the point in his career.
How are you going to call what I say nonsense and demand I explain it when you won't even defend your own statements?
You seem to want me to go into ever more and more detail but you are required to defend nothing you say.
Because you CAN switch classes you idiot. There is nothing to defend.
Like I'd love to see anyone try to recreate Varian Jeggare in Pathfinder. It doesn't work, cause his skillset has a combination of uber-competence in a frankly absurd amount of disciplines, which is not something possible in a class based system.
Here is your statement. Here is the author directly contradicting that statement. Do you have anything to counter that besides "Nu uh"?
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Because you CAN switch classes you idiot. There is nothing to defend.
Point me to the rules in PF2e, which is the edition you made the claim that he would be Wizard with Fighter Dedication or Sorceror with Fighter Dedication depending on what part of his career you are talking about, where you can change classes.
Show me the rules.
Don't say "well you can" show me how it is possible within the rules.
You can retrain feats, skills, and some selectable class features. You can’t retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or ability scores.
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Also, I can't critique whether his build accurately reflects what he is capable of in the novels because he doesn't share the build.
Without seeing the build, there is no way to criticize it.
The only thing I have to go on is what YOU said he would be, which 1. Still hasn't covered everything he has (where is his animal companion?), and 2. Is literally impossible according to the 2e rules, which you used to try to represent it.
Thankfully he made the switch in 1E, so here you go. His current 2E build would start with Sorcerer. Because no, he doesn't have the same current build as he started with. Now then, once more with feeling.
Like I'd love to see anyone try to recreate Varian Jeggare in Pathfinder. It doesn't work, cause his skillset has a combination of uber-competence in a frankly absurd amount of disciplines, which is not something possible in a class based system.
Here is your statement. Here is the author directly contradicting that statement. Do you have anything to counter that besides "Nu uh"? If you ignore it again I can only assume it's because you don't have anything to counter it. Which is too bad, because I'd sure LOVE to see how things "don't work".
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How do you expect me to critique something he DOESN'T SHARE?
He can say that his capabilities are 100% covered by the secret build he has, but unless that build is public, it doesn't in any way contradict anything I've said, because it isn't open to any criticism.
He again, has abilities as a master swordsman, and sorcerer and wizard, and has an animal companion.
Please tell me what build covers all of that.
How do you expect me to critique something he DOESN'T SHARE?
Well you sure seem confident that the build is impossible to replicate and thus the author is lying, so you tell me.
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How do you expect me to critique something he DOESN'T SHARE?Well you sure seem confident that the build is impossible to replicate and thus the author is lying, so you tell me.
You are asking me to prove a negative. You just have to prove it is possible once, proving it is impossible would require me to prove every single possible build in existence against every single thing he is capable of in the novels.
Now, on the other hand, if there was an actual build to check against, I would be the one who had the onus of proving my point, because then all I'd have to do is find 1 instance of something he can do not covered by the build.
And I don't think he is lying, I think that he takes artistic license, because that is what you do when writing a novel. Notice he doesn't say "I stick slavishly to what happens" he says he uses it to check during spell battles and occasionally checks things that happen in action scenes.
Dude. It’s clear NA Palm is going to say whatever it takes to avoid admitting this point, so why keep arguing? He won’t be convinced. Neither will you. Why not move on?
Yes. Someone on the internet is wrong. Is it really worth all this energy?
[EDIT]: Like seriously. He isn’t lying, he’s taking artistic license. If that doesn’t prove the futility of this conversation, nothing will.
How do you expect me to critique something he DOESN'T SHARE?Well you sure seem confident that the build is impossible to replicate and thus the author is lying, so you tell me.You are asking me to prove a negative. You just have to prove it is possible once, proving it is impossible would require me to prove every single possible build in existence against every single thing he is capable of in the novels.
Now, on the other hand, if there was an actual build to check against, I would be the one who had the onus of proving my point, because then all I'd have to do is find 1 instance of something he can do not covered by the build.
And I don't think he is lying, I think that he takes artistic license, because that is what you do when writing a novel. Notice he doesn't say "I stick slavishly to what happens" he says he uses it to check during spell battles and occasionally checks things that happen in action scenes.
I'm not asking you to prove a negative, I'm asking you to prove the below statement.
Like I'd love to see anyone try to recreate Varian Jeggare in Pathfinder. It doesn't work, cause his skillset has a combination of uber-competence in a frankly absurd amount of disciplines, which is not something possible in a class based system.
A statement which has been, officially, directly contradicted. You haven't even stated anything that would be hard to replicate. I'd love to know what "doesn't work".
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... If you really think there is no difference between accusing someone of taking artistic license and accusing someone of lying I have no idea what to even say.
Those are RADICALLY different things. One is a moral judgment, the other is not. He does what is best for the story, not what is best for perfectly modeling the Pathfinder ruleset. I commend him on that because perfectly modeling the Pathfinder ruleset in a novel can lead to weird things.
He also never says that he 100% only follows the builds. He never said that. "They're a big help when I deal with spell battles, but they also provide inspiration for action scenes."
Saying that the builds probably don't perfectly represent everything the character has done in the novels isn't accusing him of lying, because he never said they did.
I really think you haven't backed up your claim. What "Doesn't work", why can't it be done? He also doesn't say he ignores the build when it would be inconvenient.
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A statement which has been, officially, directly contradicted. You haven't even stated anything that would be hard to replicate. I'd love to know what "doesn't work".
I said how it doesn't work. He has a diversity of skillset that doesn't match any build I've ever seen.
The fact that the author SAYS he has a build does not in any way disprove what I said, because without actually SEEING the build there is no way for me to assess whether that build actually has all the skills and capabilities he has in the novels.
That is like you saying "no one can jump the grand canyon" and me saying "well I can jump the grand canyon" without providing the proof that I've done it, and then me trying to tell you to prove that I haven't.
(this analogy of course, is a bit different, because in this case I would be lying. As the author of the book has never claimed that he is 100% slavishly devoted to the stats he created, and instead says it helps him with spell battles and inspiration for action scenes, I'll say he isn't lying.)
I said how it doesn't work. He has a diversity of skillset that doesn't match any build I've ever seen.
What skills? Why can't it be replicated? We'll start with Prince of Wolves.
Int +5; Senses Perception +10
Defense
AC 12, Touch 12, Flat-footed 10,
Hp 34
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +5
Offense
Speed 30’
Melee
Rapier +5 1d6 (19-20 X2)
Spells; Rifle scrolls.
Statistics
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats; Skill Focus, Diplomacy, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Scribe Scroll, Alertness, Dodge, Silent Spell
Skills; Knowledge Arcane +13, Knowledge History +13, Knowledge Nobility +10, Diplomacy +11, Sense Motive +10, Bluff +7, Knowledge Religion+7, Perception +10, Profession Inspector +5, Linguistics +8, Knowledge Nature +7
Languages, Common, Varisian, Elven, Tien, Ancient Thassilonian, Polyglot, Osiriani, Infernal, Draconic
SQ; Low Light vision, Immune to magic Sleep, +2 save vs enchantment
Which part do you take umbridge with?
It's kinda hard to build Varian since I believe one of his core things was showing off the P1 retraining rules, over the course of the novels (they published more after 2012 btw) he went from Wizard to Magus to Monk to Sorcerer to Arcanist.
Yeah but suggesting wizard or sorcerer depending on when you are building him for was a whole thing. I'm trying to start simple before we get in to his high level builds. Also did he official go Magus? More of an Eldritch Knight in my head but it's been a minute since I've read the novels.
From the University of Lepidstadt on the wiki (pulled from Rule of Fear)
"The university also teaches the value of swordsmanship: it supports duelling fraternities like Gateguard and Malkenclaw. There is a tradition for freshers to duel at Fifthstones Hill, to the south of the city, until they receive a Lepidstadt scar: a prized cut to the face."
In Queen of Thorns, it is revealed that when Varian went through this tradition, none of his classmates were ever able to hurt him. Hence why he does't have the scar.
Considering his education takes place before Prince of Wolves, you want to tell me he was AC 12?
Yeah that's what combat expertise is for and I didn't go through the whole process of items. Anything else?
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Cool he has combat expertise. With the dodge bonus he has an AC of 14.
You legit believe 14 AC is enough to not be hit against every single person in a school that prizes swordsmanship?
Also, it would actually probably be 13 AC, because during his time at the school, he probably wouldn't have had the +4 BAB necessary to push it up to 14.
Varian is not portrayed as "good with a sword" he is portrayed as "insanely good with a sword".
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It's kinda hard to build Varian since I believe one of his core things was showing off the P1 retraining rules, over the course of the novels (they published more after 2012 btw) he went from Wizard to Magus to Monk to Sorcerer to Arcanist.Yeah but suggesting wizard or sorcerer depending on when you are building him for was a whole thing. I'm trying to start simple before we get in to his high level builds. Also did he official go Magus? More of an Eldritch Knight in my head but it's been a minute since I've read the novels.
I forgot Eldritch Knight.
*adds to list*
And as NA Palm points out, *adds Fighter (Ustalavic Duelist)*
Cool he has combat expertise. With the dodge bonus he has an AC of 14.
You legit believe 14 AC is enough to not be hit against every single person in a school that prizes swordsmanship?
Also, it would actually probably be 13 AC, because during his time at the school, he probably wouldn't have had the +4 BAB necessary to push it up to 14.
Varian is not portrayed as "good with a sword" he is portrayed as "insanely good with a sword".
He is certainly not presented as "insanely good" in Prince of Wolves. He is presented as talented and gets better as he continues to level. We can get his AC much higher with minor stat adjustments and items. Adding some more fighter or Eldritch Knight levels also helps and keeps him within the bounds of the novel. Since that is your only complaint, seems to me that this build replicates him. Certainly doesn't approach "It doesn't work".
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Yes, but "I can't be hit by anyone in my entire school" does represent "insanely good".
And that takes place before Prince of Wolves. Whether he is portrayed in Prince of Wolves itself as a hyper competent swordsman, he absolutely WAS portrayed that way when at school. Just because that information was added after Prince of Wolves does not mean that it didn't take place BEFORE Prince of Wolves. And if you are going to give me a Prince of Wolves build, it should be capable of doing everything that a pre Prince of Wolves Varian has been stated to have been able to do.
Even the 14 if you count switching to Ustalavic Duelist on that first level would be hit by a level 1 Fighter with a 16 Dex 50% of the time.
Even if you give him 18 Dex on top of that, he would still be hit 35% of the time. The idea that no one could ever hit him would imply his AC was much, much higher than that.
This is of course, the problem you come into when you start acting as though the mechanics of the game are 100% modeling the world. People's skills are generally never as linear as they are in a class based game. (and also when I'm saying his skillset, I don't mean his "Skills" in the game sense, but in the general sense of "all the things he is capable of")
Well first off it wasn't his entire school, it was his class. Now then, let's give him some more fighter levels and take his nobility wealth in to partial consideration.
10 + 3(14Dex +belt) + 2(lv 5 Ustalavic Duelist) + 2(Combat Expertise) + 3(Bracers of Armor) +1(Dodge) +2(Ring of Protection) +1(Amulet of Natural armor) = 24
Easy to achieve and now that class of lv 1 fighters with 16 Strength(well above average) and weapon focus only has a 10% chance to hit him. And this is with a fairly basic b*@~$ build. We can do better. Before that though, any more issues?
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While I've disagreed with Corrik on a variety of things in this thread, I'd like to note I'm with him on this one. Nothing Jaggare (or most Pathfinder Tales protagonists) does is impossible in PF1 with the proper build. Some of it, IMO, requires better than 20 point-buy...but so? Not everyone in-universe has the same set of stats.
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... That is an excessive amount of magic items to assume someone has during a traditional school dueling situation.
And even if you assume he is decked out like a Christmas tree, why would no one else in his class have anything but mundane equipment?
Also it just seems kind of silly to have a "he was so good no one could touch him" moment, and find out that it was 99% because the dude was rich enough to buy a full set of defensive magical items.
That is like making a point about someone winning every bike race they ever entered, only to find out they were using a professional several thousand dollar racing bicycle and everyone else that competed was using fixies.
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Ya know, I though you were going to go with "but it turns out he was just doping and not getting caught." *cough* Lance Armstrong.
That is like making a point about someone winning every bike race they ever entered, only to find out they were using a professional several thousand dollar racing bicycle and everyone else that competed was using fixies.
Ahaha, I was trying to think of a more "buying the win" thing, but the doping thing works too.
Well to begin with, is everyone in his class a rich Cheliax noble? But we can do without the items.
Figher(Ustalavic Duelist) 1 / 1 Monk(Scaled fist) / Magus(Kensai) 7
10 + 1(Fighter) + 3(Cha) + 4(Int) + 1(Dex) + 1(Dodge) + 4(Defensive fighting, crane style)= 24
10% hit chance without a single magic item. There are numerous builds we could use.
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So now you are statting him as level 9, when you said the earlier 7 level build worked?
Even accounting for retraining that doesn't work.
My point has never been that none of the things he did could be done. It's that the sum total of all things he is capable of doing throughout the books is so diverse that it would be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to create a single character who could do it all.
That said, if you assume he was just constantly retraining whole levels 1e style throughout his career, you might be able to make it work. It's still a little over the top, but it might be possible.
So now you are statting him as level 9, when you said the earlier 7 level build worked?
Even accounting for retraining that doesn't work.
My point has never been that none of the things he did could be done. It's that the sum total of all things he is capable of doing throughout the books is so diverse that it would be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to create a single character who could do it all.
That said, if you assume he was just constantly retraining whole levels 1e style throughout his career, you might be able to make it work. It's still a little over the top, but it might be possible.
Lv 9 still has him within the bounds of the book, covers more of his backstory, and is completely independent of items. There are numerous builds you can do that all cover the character's shown abilities. Besides AC, which I've demonstrated, what is lacking? If your argument is now that I don't know his exact level, congratulations the goal post is back there ->
You've repeated it can't be done 100 times but have yet to present a single piece of evidence that that is true. Clearly it can be done.
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Did you completely miss this part of the post:
"My point has never been that none of the things he did could be done. It's that the sum total of all things he is capable of doing throughout the books is so diverse that it would be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to create a single character who could do it all."
You are the one who is moving the goal posts, by adjusting his entire statblock to be able to do one thing it is said he could do. Of course if you restat his character for every single situation he is in it is possible. That is the entire point I'm making: His skillset is so diverse that one character could hardly do it all.
And your question was "what part of this statblock doesn't match" So I pointed out what part seemed off based on what he had done to that point. Are you admitting that the Level 7 Statblock you said could represent him does not accurately represent him then?
So starting with a sample build and then modifying it to make it closer to the character is moving the goal posts? You'll notice I said multiple times that was a starting point. Even mentioned that it wouldn't cover his higher level stuff. Never once did I declare it to be the "definitive" build. The modifications to the build still have all of the rest of the character's abilities.
Now please point what part of the character's abilities are unable to be replicated? What "sum total" is missing? Repeating "It doesn't work" 100 more times does not lend any weight to your stance.
It doesn't work, cause his skillset has a combination of uber-competence in a frankly absurd amount of disciplines, which is not something possible in a class based system.
What exactly about the character is not possible to build?
