the naming pool? Its mentioned, but no information about it that i can see..
So, the encounter with the three seugathi along the Halflight Path is brutal. I ran it for my gaming group today, and the party barely made it through in one piece. The party consists of a cleric, and abjurer, an Aldori swordlord, and a samurai. The only reason they survived was because the swordlord made his Will save against mind fog. The rest of the party was confused for pretty much the whole fight, and the swordlord was still confused for about 80% of it. They ended up killing poor Abra Lopati and nearly killing each other, as well. As it was, three of four PCs were left with permanent insanities. Three DC 20 Will saves each round versus the madness auras, a 15-foot-wide hallway so there's no room to get away from them...was this early encounter meant to be so brutal?
the naming pool? Its mentioned, but no information about it that i can see..
The Naming Pool is in the adventure itself, on page 48.
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So, the encounter with the three seugathi along the Halflight Path is brutal. I ran it for my gaming group today, and the party barely made it through in one piece. The party consists of a cleric, and abjurer, an Aldori swordlord, and a samurai. The only reason they survived was because the swordlord made his Will save against mind fog. The rest of the party was confused for pretty much the whole fight, and the swordlord was still confused for about 80% of it. They ended up killing poor Abra Lopati and nearly killing each other, as well. As it was, three of four PCs were left with permanent insanities. Three DC 20 Will saves each round versus the madness auras, a 15-foot-wide hallway so there's no room to get away from them...was this early encounter meant to be so brutal?
Oh yeah, those guys are BREW-TALL! I was surprised that there was such a nasty "random encounter" right off the bat. I'm thinking running away and leaving the poor NPCs to die is probably the best tactic. Welcome to Kaer Maga, I guess!
I actually like the design there. It tells the players right away, "This adventure is going to have some nasty fights. Be careful." I think by the third chapter of an AP, we can start assuming that the players are fairly experienced and skilled, and it's time to up the difficulty a bit.
I actually like the design there. It tells the players right away, "This adventure is going to have some nasty fights. Be careful." I think by the third chapter of an AP, we can start assuming that the players are fairly experienced and skilled, and it's time to up the difficulty a bit.
True, but there's a fine line between "very difficult" and "Total Party Killer." My second group lost their rogue to the lone seugathi under the Lady's Light, and there was much griping about how ridiculously powerful the monster is already. I think I'll replace this encounter with three cloakers instead so my group doesn't walk out on my game in protest. :)
I do like a brutal encounter right off the bat to set the mood, just be warned that this one is very deadly!
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After chatting with Jacobs (the developer for the adventure), the basic idea behind making the seugathi fight a "high 9" challenge rating is that it's probably the only fight you've got that day, plus you've got Abra with you, and you likely fought a seugathi in the previous adventure and thus have an idea of what they can do.
That said, if anyone who hasn't run the encounter yet is worried that it might be too brutal, you can always drop one of the seugathi and bring it down to a more manageable CR 8. It's primarily meant to be more a plot point, and a TPK that early would definitely be unsatisfying!
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It's primarily meant to be more a plot point, and a TPK that early would definitely be unsatisfying!
That's true.
"Welcome to the city of Kaer Maga! It's filled with wonders, from self-eviscerating trolls to suspended cliffside manors. Truly, the most interesting city on Golarion! Also, here's three unstoppable giant worms. You're dead."
Actually, one of the great things about Suegathi is that even if they "kill" the entire party, they might just leave them all alive and unconscious -- and insane! -- for their own inscrutable reasons.
After chatting with Jacobs (the developer for the adventure), the basic idea behind making the seugathi fight a "high 9" challenge rating is that it's probably the only fight you've got that day, plus you've got Abra with you, and you likely fought a seugathi in the previous adventure and thus have an idea of what they can do.
Putting a melee NPC with Will as his lowest save with the group for an encounter where you have to repeatedly save vs. confusion just makes it more difficult (IMO), since he's as likely to attack a party member as a bad guy. :P
After chatting with Jacobs (the developer for the adventure), the basic idea behind making the seugathi fight a "high 9" challenge rating is that it's probably the only fight you've got that day, plus you've got Abra with you, and you likely fought a seugathi in the previous adventure and thus have an idea of what they can do.Putting a melee NPC with Will as his lowest save with the group for an encounter where you have to repeatedly save vs. confusion just makes it more difficult (IMO), since he's as likely to attack a party member as a bad guy. :P
Yeah, when I ran it, Abra immediately blew his Will save against the mind fog, which means the only way he could have possibly acted normally would have been to roll 3 natural 20's in a row--a situation the party samurai found himself in as well.
And speaking of mind fog, I'm pretty sure these seugathi should be rated as a higher CR. They've got comparable HP, AC, and saves for a CR 6, but then you add in the fast healing, madness aura, powerful spell-like abilities with high DCs (mind fog, phantasmal killer, oh, and they can cast confusion just in case you make those saves against their madness aura), and the confusion command ability, and they become rather impressive adversaries, especially when fighting more than one at a time.
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Seugathi math, for those that care
+2=0%
+4=2%
+6=4%
+8=9%
+10=17%
+12=27%
+14=42%
+16=61%
For an 8th level character, +8 Will is around what most people will have. Either a high Will class with a Cloak of Resistance +2, or a low Will save class with Iron Will, a Cloak, and +2 from Wisdom/Other bonuses. Even if we assume they each pushed it to +10 with buffs or other bonuses, there is a 47% that a party of four such characters will be confused in a given round. It drops lower if one is a Cleric, Druid, or other High Wisdom/High Will class, and there is a chance of a confused character acting normally, but with the Seugathi able to choose how the confusion result for one PC each, there is a very good chance that at least 3 of 4 PCs in any given round are going to be beating on themselves or each other. Their supposed ally has a poor Will save, and will almost undoubtedly be among those that fail their saves.
This also doesn't include the ability of the Seugathi to throw DC19 mind fog, DC18 confusion, and DC17 suggestion around. Anyone who fails against mind fog will drop into the 0-4% chance of saving range, which means they are basically done for. The rest will have to face the combined spell-like abilities of the Seugathi, and even someone with a very impressive +16 Will save is only going to have a 45% chance to survive three madness auras and three confusion spells in a single round.
Basically: overlapping auras make saving very, very tough. This doesn't matter as much when it is a bunch of Troglodytes, but a madness aura combined with spells is basically a death sentence for anyone but a highly optimized, high Will, high Wisdom character. For GMs, skipping or altering this encounter would probably be a very good idea.
Although, this DOES make me feel bad for complaining that the last two levels of Shards of Sin were too easy. Can't wait until I get a chance to check this adventure out!
On P.32 the book references 2 Cloaks of Protection +2. Are these supposed to be Cloaks of Resistance +2 or are they referring to a cloak that provides a deflection bonus?
I suspect they are the latter but I'd like some clarification if possible.
Creative Director
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On P.32 the book references 2 Cloaks of Protection +2. Are these supposed to be Cloaks of Resistance +2 or are they referring to a cloak that provides a deflection bonus?
I suspect they are the latter but I'd like some clarification if possible.
They're supposed to be cloaks of resistance +2.
Now and then, edition creep slips in (they were known as cloaks of protection back in the old days...).
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Just an observation but it wasn't until I read through the adventure that I came to realize that it wasn't a spine-whip wielding evil knight with the head of a dragon on the cover. I tested it out on my wife and she also thought the "headless" guy had a draconic head initially. One of those things you probably don't notice until everything has been put together for the final printing. The cover art itself is as always, awesome! Thank you Wayne Reynolds.
Thank god I had no idea what a seugathi was..I just dropped in a trio of juvenile purple worms...I convert the whole path back to 1st edition as that is what I play.
I knew what the cloaks of protection +2 were.
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So about the statblock of Luonim the Vast in page 35, I am having trouble with the blood points ability (I do not posess "City of Strangers" and am unfamiliar with the Bloatmage prestige class). The ability says that Luonim can use extra bloodpoints but dosen't describe how many or how. It also says that if his bloodpoints pool drops below 4 (which is his initial total) he starts going mad - but the tatics section describes him using bloodpoints at the beginning of combat while remaining in control.
So are those two unclear things related? am I supposed to understand that Luonim can use extra bloodpoints, but if the number of extra bloodpoints he uses excceds 4 than the negative effects start happening?
the entire thing is really confusing.
Also, about the roon where he is encounterd, it is said the the PCs should not realize that the roon is spinning - however there are exists to the room to parts of the dungeon that are not spinning, so the characters should be able to realise what is happening by seeing their angle relative to the other parts of the dungeon rapidly changing. What's up with that?
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Creative Director
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Thank god I had no idea what a seugathi was..I just dropped in a trio of juvenile purple worms...I convert the whole path back to 1st edition as that is what I play.
I knew what the cloaks of protection +2 were.
A better replacement for seugathi would be umber hulks.
Thanks for the update...my players won't be gaming til friday.
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So about the statblock of Luonim the Vast in page 35, I am having trouble with the blood points ability (I do not posess "City of Strangers" and am unfamiliar with the Bloatmage prestige class). The ability says that Luonim can use extra bloodpoints but dosen't describe how many or how. It also says that if his bloodpoints pool drops below 4 (which is his initial total) he starts going mad - but the tatics section describes him using bloodpoints at the beginning of combat while remaining in control.
So are those two unclear things related? am I supposed to understand that Luonim can use extra bloodpoints, but if the number of extra bloodpoints he uses excceds 4 than the negative effects start happening?
the entire thing is really confusing.
Also, about the roon where he is encounterd, it is said the the PCs should not realize that the roon is spinning - however there are exists to the room to parts of the dungeon that are not spinning, so the characters should be able to realise what is happening by seeing their angle relative to the other parts of the dungeon rapidly changing. What's up with that?
Also, about the roon where he is encounterd, it is said the the PCs should not realize that the roon is spinning - however there are exists to the room to parts of the dungeon that are not spinning, so the characters should be able to realise what is happening by seeing their angle relative to the other parts of the dungeon rapidly changing. What's up with that?
It doesn't say that the PCs don't notice the room is spinning--the spinning is obvious, both from the exits flashing past and the obvious force being exerted on the characters bodies. The line talking about the PCs' perspective is just saying that there's no need to move the miniatures on the battlemat because their *relative* positions stay the same.
(I suppose if you wanted to, you could just spin the entire battlemat to simulate the motion, but that doesn't affect the actual combat in any way.)
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Also, about the roon where he is encounterd, it is said the the PCs should not realize that the roon is spinning - however there are exists to the room to parts of the dungeon that are not spinning, so the characters should be able to realise what is happening by seeing their angle relative to the other parts of the dungeon rapidly changing. What's up with that?
It doesn't say that the PCs don't notice the room is spinning--the spinning is obvious, both from the exits flashing past and the obvious force being exerted on the characters bodies. The line talking about the PCs' perspective is just saying that there's no need to move the miniatures on the battlemat because their *relative* positions stay the same.
(I suppose if you wanted to, you could just spin the entire battlemat to simulate the motion, but that doesn't affect the actual combat in any way.)
It would be pretty fun to set everything up on a Lazy Susan and give it a spin, though! Or have some way to keep it slowly spinning throughout the entire encounter, so people have to move their miniatures around while it spins! :)
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Also, about the roon where he is encounterd, it is said the the PCs should not realize that the roon is spinning - however there are exists to the room to parts of the dungeon that are not spinning, so the characters should be able to realise what is happening by seeing their angle relative to the other parts of the dungeon rapidly changing. What's up with that?
It doesn't say that the PCs don't notice the room is spinning--the spinning is obvious, both from the exits flashing past and the obvious force being exerted on the characters bodies. The line talking about the PCs' perspective is just saying that there's no need to move the miniatures on the battlemat because their *relative* positions stay the same.
(I suppose if you wanted to, you could just spin the entire battlemat to simulate the motion, but that doesn't affect the actual combat in any way.)
Sweet idea! that way I can make the players be evrey bit as dizzy as their characters :)
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My group was better off than most when it came to the seugathi fight.
1): They have a construct in the group.
2): The cleric got "act normally" the first confusion round and threw down a magic circle against evil.
3): Making the mite bard cohort punch himself is hilarious, but non-fatal.
So in the long run, it was just an excuse for the wizard to get three free magic missile wands with almost-full capacity (the random rolls came up disturbingly high).
The clockwork soldiers, however, nearly took out the construct PC, though, which until then came nowhere near close to happening.
B3. Research Assistant
The players (as far I can tell) don't have any way of knowing how to disarm this trap.
How can they bypass it? Must they be affected once at least, then just run through the room before the reset? Is the symbol triggered by sight? If so, will Darkness counter it?
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B3. Research Assistant
The players (as far I can tell) don't have any way of knowing how to disarm this trap.
How can they bypass it? Must they be affected once at least, then just run through the room before the reset? Is the symbol triggered by sight? If so, will Darkness counter it?
Jacobs (who developed the adventure) says: "The players probably *don't* know how to bypass the trap, but they can still detect it with Perception and use Disable Device as usual for a trap."
That said, in my home game, I only have it affect you if you ask a question (any question, including "what the hell is that?") within the room. As long as you don't ask questions, you're fine. That makes it less of a trap (at least after the first question) and more of a dangerous resource, but it's also an option!
2): The cleric got "act normally" the first confusion round and threw down a magic circle against evil.
That's nice, but by RAW prot evil effects don't prevent confusion, as it is not mind control. I would however do rule that the seugathi can't use their ability to control the outcome of the confusion though.
Of course, you may houserule that prot evil works, and that'd fine too :P they are pretty brutal as it is.
Protection from Evil blocks compulsion effects, and confusion is a compulsion effect. Now the aura of madness effect is like confusion, but it ain't confusion!
So, does prot evil work on it??
Right,
On the night I started running book 3, only three players turned up out of a usual seven, but we carried on regardless. The CR9 encounter with the Seugathis was great fun, and no one got killed. BUT..
I had to fudge it a little.
Firstly I had Abra make his saves. The writer of the AP is on record as saying he only made the encounter that hard because it's the only one that day, and that Abra is there to help. So I figured that if he's there specifically to help, he needs to actually do that.
Secondly, after having the three DC20 Will saves hit the party like an anvil in round one, I had the party self-harm for round one, and then the Seugathi's split up. One started using it's wand while another started using spells or bite or wand while the third used the Aura of Madness. They swapped roles in different rounds to keep things fun.
That way the party had a much better chance of making saves, but were still reeling from poison bites, self harming, and magic missile flurries.
There were some rather worried expressions on faces, but they pulled through once the damage dealing tank of the party made his save and did his job.
All good fun, now for the Hanging Manse!!!
Right,
On the night I started running book 3, only three players turned up out of a usual seven, but we carried on regardless. The CR9 encounter with the Seugathis was great fun, and no one got killed. BUT..
I had to fudge it a little.
Firstly I had Abra make his saves. The writer of the AP is on record as saying he only made the encounter that hard because it's the only one that day, and that Abra is there to help. So I figured that if he's there specifically to help, he needs to actually do that.
Secondly, after having the three DC20 Will saves hit the party like an anvil in round one, I had the party self-harm for round one, and then the Seugathi's split up. One started using it's wand while another started using spells or bite or wand while the third used the Aura of Madness. They swapped roles in different rounds to keep things fun.
That way the party had a much better chance of making saves, but were still reeling from poison bites, self harming, and magic missile flurries.
There were some rather worried expressions on faces, but they pulled through once the damage dealing tank of the party made his save and did his job.
All good fun, now for the Hanging Manse!!!
The Art of the Fudge is a key part of being a good GM. :)
I have a question about the Halflight Path. Why is the party in such a hurry that they are assumed to feel the need to take the speedy path instead of the safer, slower path?
I have a question about the Halflight Path. Why is the party in such a hurry that they are assumed to feel the need to take the speedy path instead of the safer, slower path?
A fair question! And some parties might indeed decide to take the long way around, which is just fine. The thing about the Halflight Path, though, is that it's usually more dangerous in theory than in practice--the Duskwardens keep it pretty safe, so lots of people take it in order to save time (and perhaps money--who knows how much it costs to have porters help you carry your gear up the cliffs the other way).
Obviously I want my party to take the Halflight Path. I'd pay real money to see their faces when -that- encounter hits them. So if they ask, how long might it take to ascend by means of the usual route (provided they don't all plan to fly)?
I'm thinking the answer is: however long would be enough to make them take the Halflight Path instead. :-) Humping all their gear up a 1,000 foot cliff past long lines of sheep flocks and merchant carts could easily take a day and a night, so that might do it if the Halflight Path were only a few hours and promised to be free of sheep poop.
One way to play up the Halflight Path is to spin it almost as a tourist attraction, like a cute little thrill that's kept safe by the Duskwardens. Something "only very rarely ever goes wrong" and then...
I might do that, actually. Might be fun.
There is a strange aspect to the design of this adventure is the initial branch between the tower and the trolls. The city guide is supposed to reveal that the best way to find the shard would be to consult one or the other. However, the adventure assumes that the players go to the trolls first and then end up at the tower anyway.
I am not sure how to run this. If the tower is presented as a realistic choice than it seems to me that I need to allow the players to follow up on it. But that forces them to explore a dungeon while they are a level short.
Any thought about this? Should I try to scale the tower encounter? Or should I just not even present it as an option?
We just finished this module, and I have to recount what happened.
Session 1. The PCs go up the cliff, skipping the Halflight Path entirely. They meet their guide, hear about the bizarre behavior of the Therassic Guild, and decide that's their clue. They use clairvoyance and similar means to find where the dungeon entrance is, passwall in, subdue some elderly librarians, tell the Therassics in no uncertain terms not to intervene, and go down.
Session 2. The PCs go into super-stealth mode and open doors a crack, peer in, swear, and close the door again. (They named this the "Hall of Horrors" about five doors in.) They fight the three Therassic agents (all three go down in a round or less), the hellwasps, and the caged fish. They skip *everything* else. When they reach the caulborn, they come to the natural conclusion that the caulborn are what made the NPCs insane (they never understood about the trap) so they subdue the caulborn and mind-read their Brain to find out how to work the menhir.
They retreat and free the coatl, then enlist its help in reverse-engineering the caulborn ritual, with aid from a planar ally summoning.
Session 3. The PCs pop out of the menhir and retrograde away from the rot grubs. (In retrospect I gave them a round more warning than the module intended.) They scout the Black Keep and enter the tower windows to take out the three wyverns. (By the way, the art, the map and the room descriptions totally disagree on where or how many windows there are in this keep.) Having finished those (and alerted other denizens--it was noisier than their usual attack) they cast Fly, move to the uppermost part of the keep, and passwall into it. They grab the Shard. The Horseman flings open the door and attacks, doing a little damage. They kill him and fly away.
I ruled that Olanna and the hounds realized where they were going and raced to the menhir to stop them. The PCs flew down, taking one round of attacks from Olanna and the hounds (they had cast Remove Fear so weren't in much danger of panic) and went through the menhir. They thanked the coatl and skipped town.
That's it! Three sessions of maybe 3 hours each. They skipped ALL of part 1, 2/3 of part 2 and more than half of part 3. Only one fight lasted more than 2 rounds (the hellwasps). Thank the gods I'm not using EXP or this would have been a complete disaster with the PCs at least one if not two levels too low by the end.
I can't fault their play. It accomplished all of their goals with minimal danger, no loss of innocent lives, and informing as few parties as possible about the Shard. But boy, shortest module EVER.
(If anyone is wondering, this is five characters, built for stealth: barbarian, oracle, wizard, rogue/fighter, cleric/fighter. Not particularly optimized for anything but stealth and operating in darkness.)
Most folks can't cast passwall until 9th level... But still, as long as your group had fun, that's all that matters!
James Sutter writes:
"Most folks can't cast passwall until 9th level..."
They used scrolls. I think they have 2-3 more of them stocked up just waiting for Windsong Abby. (If they passwall into the bottom of that they may bite the big one, though.)
They did have fun. I'm just glad we're neither relying on module EXP nor module treasure, because they got maybe 25% of each.
I was sorry not to see the artificer's house; I'll keep it on tap for a later game. It should stand alone just fine.
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They used scrolls. I think they have 2-3 more of them stocked up just waiting for Windsong Abby. (If they passwall into the bottom of that they may bite the big one, though.)
That actually works fine in the Doomsday Door, even if it's tougher for the PCs. But they also then have breath of life, access to raise dead, etc that mitigates the difficulty.
It's true that there's in general many ways to bypass whole levels of a dungeon with the canny use of spells and scrolls. Sometimes it makes the PCs' life more difficult. My take on it is that it's the GM's job to deal with it, and that it's better than forcing the PCs through levels and levels of dungeons just because they need the XP. And the players feel that they were smart and cannily bypassed obstacles that were in their PCs' way. It doesn't happen so often! ;)
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I've turned Kaer Maga into a hybrid of Sigil and City of Strangers while rolling City of Strangers PFS modules, Swords of Sin module and the Godsmouth Hersey too. SO far the group has made an alliance with the Ardocs, secured the cohort-aid of Luciana Ardoc, agreed to assist the Duskwardens and setup brewing trade between Kaer Maga and Magnimar. All in all while at night I have the Dark Rider hunting heads...
Mary, your story reminds me of once when we played Clue, my wife went first, rolled a 6 went into the first room and solved the crime:) no one else even got a turn:)
Ironically, my group had a near TPK in the second book to the fiendish seugathi, then met their second near TPK in the first encounter of book three to the same monster...
Seugathi are some seriously badass CR6 monsters...
Ironically, my group had a near TPK in the second book to the fiendish seugathi, then met their second near TPK in the first encounter of book three to the same monster...
Seugathi are some seriously badass CR6 monsters...
Yeah, I took one look at that encounter and said "no thanks". I ended up using a death worm (for the wormy goodness) inhabited by an intellect devourer (to play up the "things that should not be" angle). The pCs had fun with it.
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Ok. Last night we got to the Seugathi combat. So far no-one is down, one thing is true, Seugathi are not the best HP damage dealers, but the party is all confused, there is 5 of 'em so Seugathis can only pick 3 out of 5 to control... but the chances for succeeding in 3 DC 20 will rolls is almost near 0% for most of the PCs. The only one with some chances is the Paladin, with +13 in Will, which has a total 42% per round of having 3 successes. The rest are closer to 10% - 3%.
We come up with this table:
Bonus DC Success Chances of 3 Successes
1 20 5 0,0125
2 20 10 0,1
3 20 15 0,3375
4 20 20 0,8
5 20 25 1,5625
6 20 30 2,7
7 20 35 4,2875
8 20 40 6,4
9 20 45 9,1125
10 20 50 12,5
11 20 55 16,6375
12 20 60 21,6
13 20 65 27,4625
14 20 70 34,3
15 20 75 42,1875
16 20 80 51,2
17 20 85 61,4125
18 20 90 72,9
Considering at this level most PCs (LVL 8) have +2 Base Will to +6 base will. Add +0 to +2 for Wisdom modifier. Add +0 to +2 for cloak of prot.
We have a minimum mod of +2 and a maximum of +10 (not considering the paladin).
Most PCs will fall in the +6 or +7.
That means most PCs in this adventure will have a 5% chances of actually acting during any round of this combat... this looks like terrible encounter design to me. I blame myself for not noticing this problem before, but I wonder what Paizo has to say about their Playtesting sessions...
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Alright, we've got an issue in our group. (I'm a player in this one, please just give some general ideas.)
We made it to the caged fish. After everything else we've been through at this point, we don't want to play with the fish. So the party gunslinger shoots it from the previous room.
The door slams closed. Won't open. That's ok, we can beat down the door.
We beat it down, and find that water is now flooding in to us in that room. We quickly backtrack, sealing that room as it begins to quickly flood.
We're not certain exactly how to proceed at this point, short of flooding the entire dungeon and the library. Our best thought so far is stop, memorize water breathing, and then push forward that way, flooding another room.
Did we miss something?
this looks like terrible encounter design to me. I blame myself for not noticing this problem before, but I wonder what Paizo has to say about their Playtesting sessions...
There was actually internal debate about how many seugathi to have in that encounter, and we clearly ended up with too many for some parties. Encounter balance is often an art rather than a science, and these things happen.
If other folks in this thread are concerned about it, I recommend dropping the number of seugathi, or having some additional Duskwardens join the fight, etc. Sorry if folks were blindsided by it!
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When I read through the AP I had an "lol, oh s#!!" moment but only realized how hard it was when my group encountered it. They were failing their saves consistently. It got to the point where each of them were nearing the permanent insanity bit and I had to deus ex in more wardens and hand waved the rest of the fight.
3 things that make piling on seugathis crazy hard:
- A save on one of the auras does not grant immunity for 24 hours like many other auras do.
- There is no specification if you need to fail to the same seugathi's aura and the wording makes it very plausible that a group of them almost guarantees the insanity result.
- Their ability to determine what happens on a failed save is AMAZING in numbers. Someone is guaranteed to either end up attacking their allies or themselves. When the game "assumes" a party of 4 and you have 3 of these things that often leaves only one person being able to do anything of import about 8% of the time to get the "act normal" result.