Attempting to End Movement in a Square With An Invisible Opponent

[Balkoth]

Only rules I can find on this matter say:

"Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space

Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer."

So say our roguish hero (who has 30 feet of movement and this is his SECOND move action) tries to tumble through a mass of hobgoblins to the square he thinks is empty (fortunately his acrobatics skill is crazy high so he can move at full speed) but instead contains an invisible hobgoblin alchemist?

Image of the situation.

He used 25 feet of movement to get there but can't stop there. Does he...

A, get shunted back 25 feet (50 feet of movement for his second move action)?

B, get shunted forward 15 feet (40 feet of movement for his second move action) and gets to freely move through more enemies he might not have been able to tumble past?

C, something else?

Both A and B seem really weird.

[Thedmstrikes]

That is quite the acrobatics number to survive all those +2s. Using the rule you quoted, strictly speaking, B is the result. However, it is not out of the bounds of credulity for a DM to rule A.

[MrCharisma]

I don't think you use any of your movement when you are "shunted" to a different spot - you just assume they moved to the other spot instead.

Personally I'd let them share a square (which is not the rules) provided the invisible enemy succeeds at a stealth check (and maybe an acrobatics check or reflex save). If the invisible enemy wants to attack it gets more complicated, but there are rules for "squeezing".

[Azothath]

invisible does not mean incorporeal, gaseous, or "two size categories smaller" than it originally was.
Reasonable people would put you in the last legally available square along your intended(and outlined) attempted path using Acrobatics. There's also the possibility of a partially successful "Move Through Threatened Squares" with multiple opponents and varying CMDs. The skill check involves movement AND AoOs.

The movement rules are simplistic and involve looking ahead at times to resolve the outcome.
Squeezing into a destination is not allowed in simple RAW but GMs can make exceptions. IF the GM allows an exception then anyone along your intended path that allows you to squeeze in will make it an interesting outcome as their square becomes the closest available square, likely leaving you surrounded at the end of your turn.

[Azothath]

There are many posts on "Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" in this forum with many different situations...
I'd do a search and see what others have already said.

[Mudfoot]

This could be quite useful. If the enemy BBEG is at the end of a corridor behind the other PCs and/or a gang of mooks, you can run/tumble your 30' past the other PCs/mooks, whack the BBEG and immediately ping back out of the way. Rinse and repeat for the other PCs, speed and tumble permitting.

[Claxon]

Honestly, as a GM I tell the player that there is an invisible character in that square and they can't move there. The player character doesn't actually know it, so they can't act that way, but a mysterious force of the universe convinces the character they can't move to that seemingly open spot.

[avr]

To me if that space was clear this is a case of a rogue attempting suicide because they can do something rather than because they should.

If they so totally outclass the hobgoblins that they can do the likes of this reasonably safely then I'd give them a choice like 'do you want to be treated as squeezed on arrival because there's someone there, or do you want to not even attempt this because your vast experience tells you that the hobgoblins are moving around someone in that space?'

[blahpers]

Mudfoot wrote:

This could be quite useful. If the enemy BBEG is at the end of a corridor behind the other PCs and/or a gang of mooks, you can run/tumble your 30' past the other PCs/mooks, whack the BBEG and immediately ping back out of the way. Rinse and repeat for the other PCs, speed and tumble permitting.

You won't be able to whack the BBEG, as you ended your movement prior to attacking and would thus be shunted before whackitude ensues.

[blahpers]

Azothath wrote:

There are many posts on "Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" in this forum with many different situations...

I'd do a search and see what others have already said.

It's one of those things that technically has an answer but never really satisfied a lot of folks, myself included.

[Quixote]

Technically speaking, B. That's pretty cut and dried, given the rules.

However, if we consider what would actually happen: a free-running, wall-jumping, somersaulting maniac somehow ducks and weaves his way past several armed foes and unknowinglye plows into am invisible opponent.
What do you do when someone bumps into you? You back out of their way. So maybe some of the hobgoblins bunch together and count as squeezing for a turn.
But what do you do when someone you mean harm literally jumps into your lap? Grab them, shove them into an ally (to grab them), knock them down?
It's too close for sword-work in the tunnel, so odds are things are going to be really confusing and hectic and crowded for a round or two before enough of the enemy backs up and forms ranks to deal with the sudden intrusion.

[Talonhawke]

Well it would depend on the layout of the area the "or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer," part means that you might just get shunted over 5ft in addition to the other options so it's likely to be a GM call.

[Balkoth]

blahpers wrote:

It's one of those things that technically has an answer but never really satisfied a lot of folks, myself included.

Pretty much. And none of the threads I checked really ended on a satisfactory note.

Half tempted to go with Claxon's idea in particularly egregious cases.

[Claxon]

Balkoth wrote:

blahpers wrote:

It's one of those things that technically has an answer but never really satisfied a lot of folks, myself included.

Pretty much. And none of the threads I checked really ended on a satisfactory note.

Half tempted to go with Claxon's idea in particularly egregious cases.

Honestly, most of the time it wouldn't even matter. You wouldn't have a real scenario like the one originally posited. Usually you can just have the character move to a square directly adjacent to the one they wanted to end in.

However, as a GM I never do that. I move the invisible NPC into a adjacent square, to prevent metagaming. No you can't Naruto run through all the squares and try to find the invisible character. You make a perception check and you find them or you find nothing. There are many ways to defeat invisibility, metagaming it by finding which square you can't end your space in isn't one (in my games).

[Balkoth]

Claxon wrote:

Usually you can just have the character move to a square directly adjacent to the one they wanted to end in.

Wasn't possible in this case, hence why I made this thread. It wasn't quite to the degree indicated by the image, to be fair.

Claxon wrote:

However, as a GM I never do that. I move the invisible NPC into a adjacent square, to prevent metagaming.

Also not possible for the invisible NPC to have moved into an adjacent square without invoking squeezing or something.

That said, if the character is MOVING through the square vs STOPPING in the square I let the invisible person make a choice whether they allow the other person to pass or block the path.

[Azothath]

this is an unusual case and is going to be a rather rare event.
The process should be that the player outlines his path as he moves(usually with a figurine). When the error occurs the GM then has to correct the movement. Giving a reason is not required and can signal extra information that can be used in a metagaming fashion, so it's best to say " the movement was illegal and thus I had to correct it". So it is not like the PC actually moved and bounced back as the movement never occurred.

commentary: does it make sense?
lol... I gave up on the model years ago as DnD is a [redacted] poor, rough, and inaccurate model of reality. Newtonian physics (circa 1750) does a better job. 200 years to come up with a worse model.

[Bertious]

As a GM I would point out the character does not have a top down view of the map and could not reliably tell there was a space big enough for them in the large troop of hobgoblins in a 10 foot wide corridor.

[Agodeshalf]

Funny we had a similar situation where we were all invisible and attacked a camp of bandits. A bandit heard a noise and walked into a square with one of the party. The GM give the character a reflex save to step out of the way. Certainly not rules as written but made sense that you should be able to avoid being run into by someone that didn't know you were there. A perception check for the bandit to notice the slight noise/blur etc. Seemed reasonable to the group.