| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is it confirmed that you can't cast lower level spells with higher level slots without using Signature Spells?No? Or at least not my knowledge. What it sounds like is that you can do this, but don't get the benefits of any Heightening.That's all some are asking for. To be able to use a higher level spell slot on a lower level spell without extra benefits, as if it had been cast at its native level as in PF1 without using any metamatic feats.
For example, a level 6 sorcerer that knows Invisibility at level 2. On a sneaky day they expend all their level 2 spells on it, yet there is more demand to sneak than anything else, so they expend level 3 slots to power further castings, without heightening/signature spells/etc.
Yep, this is a concern for me, too.
Right now, it's coming across as making spontaneous casters less spontaneous. Prep casters prepare each of their spell slots with a specific spell, and can change this on a daily basis (at least, certain abilities allow for additional changes during the day). Spont casters instead prepare (yes, I'm using that word deliberately) a list of spells for each level of spell slot on a level-up or retraining basis (with only signature spell and a few other abilities mentioned above to change that setup).
Hopefully, the GMG or P2E Unchained will include an alternative to this (along with Arcanist-style prep casting) somewhere down the line.
Can't you grab crossblood feat and use arcane evolution to heighten it.Actually, the Arcane Evolution feat gives you a spellbook and lets you pick one of your spells to be signature for the day. Or instead pick a different spell to add to your repertoire. Which is often all you need for the prepared casters anyway. Like on a day we need spider climb, we probably need it 4 times anyway.But unfortunately that only works with Arcane bloodlines, so my Hag and Undead bloodline sorcerers are out of luck. Hopefully, we will get clarification on retraining spells at some point.
The Crossblooded Evolution feat lets you choose a spell from another tradition and add it to your bloodline's tradition. It does not grant you access to another tradition, so Divine, Occult, and Primal traditions would not be able to take Arcane Evolution.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the Spontaneous vs Prepared discussion moved into "Heightening Spontaneous vs Prepared". And under that discussion, in this new edition you would need to understand cantrip and focus spell heightening. Both are "Auto Heightened" (half level rounded up). It seems to me that they are where the real flexibility lies in up/down casting. They don't consume other slots but are always getting more powerful.
I know focus spells are limited to a max of 3 per combat (assuming you have gained 3 of them) but cantrip and focus seem to be more the bread and butter. While all of the "spell slot" spells are your "Big Bang" or "I have this just in case".
*shrug* just an impression thus far
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
You heighten one "signature spell" of every level you know from spell level 2+. Your spell chosen at that level is castable both up and down level. So at the highest levels you have almost a dozen spells known to pick from at every spell level if your signature spell is castable up and down the entire range of spell levels.The new heightening mechanics do way more for spontaneous casters who basically get bonus spells known from it.Uh...not in the playtest they didn't. They explicitly did not get that (but wizards did). Did that change?
And to add to this, you need to consider that Heightened Spells in PF2 are quite often the equivalent of several spells in PF1. I'm gonna use the Playtest as examples, just because I haven't combed the final spell list as thoroughly.
PFPT heightened Charm = PF1 Charm Person + Charm Monster + Mass Charm Person + Mass Charm Monster
PFPT heightened invisibility = PF1 invisibility + Greater Invisibility
PFPT heightened summoned monster = PF1 Summon monster I, Summon Monster II, Summon Monster III, Summon Monster IV, Summon Monster V, Summon Monster VI, Summon Monster VII, Summon Monster VIII, Summon Monster IX
PFPT Summon Nature's Ally = See above.
Then you have to realize how PF1 prepared and spontaneous casters interacted with the above spells. The spontaneous caster had to spend a precious spell known on each option if they wanted to be able to utilize all of them. The prepared caster just got them. Well, a wizard might have to pay a paltry amount of gold to add them to his spellbook for later, but clerics and druids just got them.
Now, in the playtest or PF2, prepared casters still just get them-- but this is just continuing a benefit they already have. Spontaneous casters meanwhile may not get to heighten all of their spells, but they get to heighten some. And those heightened spells can save them on so many PF1 equivalent spells known. Comparatively, the spontaneous casters have made incredible gains in their options and versatility since PF1, while wizards have gained only a smidgen more (saving a few coins) while clerics and druids gained nothing at all. On top of spontaneous casters catching up with how quickly they gain new spell levels, the sorcerer has a shot at "most improved player" this edition.
So if you want to argue the final result is spontaneous casters are still behind prepared casters, feel free. I don't think this will be true in practice, but make your case. But don't pretend that limited heightening is a slap in the face to the spontaneous caster when it is a huge gain they have made in the new edition.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is it confirmed that you can't cast lower level spells with higher level slots without using Signature Spells?No? Or at least not my knowledge. What it sounds like is that you can do this, but don't get the benefits of any Heightening.That's all some are asking for. To be able to use a higher level spell slot on a lower level spell without extra benefits, as if it had been cast at its native level as in PF1 without using any metamatic feats.
For example, a level 6 sorcerer that knows Invisibility at level 2. On a sneaky day they expend all their level 2 spells on it, yet there is more demand to sneak than anything else, so they expend level 3 slots to power further castings, without heightening/signature spells/etc.
Yep, this is a concern for me, too.
Right now, it's coming across as making spontaneous casters less spontaneous. Prep casters prepare each of their spell slots with a specific spell, and can change this on a daily basis (at least, certain abilities allow for additional changes during the day). Spont casters instead prepare (yes, I'm using that word deliberately) a list of spells for each level of spell slot on a level-up or retraining basis (with only signature spell and a few other abilities mentioned above to change that setup).
Hopefully, the GMG or P2E Unchained will include an alternative to this (along with Arcanist-style prep casting) somewhere down the line.
Too late to edit.
Alternatively, I'd like to see this addressed in the fiction, assuming the novels or comics come back. I want to see the main characters come across a problem that is solvable with a first-level spell that, say, Seoni knows (though not as a signature spell) but that she can't cast as she is out of first-level spell slots, despite otherwise having a nearly full tank.
Just like I'd like to see a wizard or other prep caster actually come out and say "Darn it, I had that spell prepared but I didn't think we'd need it a second time today", even if it were immediately followed by "Give me ten minutes, and I can cast it again". Just something to show that the magic of Pathfinder the Game does represent the magic of Pathfinder the Setting, logistical warts and all.
I think the Spontaneous vs Prepared discussion moved into "Heightening Spontaneous vs Prepared". And under that discussion, in this new edition you would need to understand cantrip and focus spell heightening. Both are "Auto Heightened" (half level rounded up). It seems to me that they are where the real flexibility lies in up/down casting. They don't consume other slots but are always getting more powerful.
I know focus spells are limited to a max of 3 per combat (assuming you have gained 3 of them) but cantrip and focus seem to be more the bread and butter. While all of the "spell slot" spells are your "Big Bang" or "I have this just in case".
*shrug* just an impression thus far
There are at least a couple of ways to regain focus points mid-combat. I feel like there's another one I'm forgetting, but here's two off the top of my head:
- A familiar master ability Familiar Focus lets you spend an action to have your familiar spend 2 actions to let you regain a focus point (once/day)
- There are a class of items with the "focused" trait that let you gain a temporary focus point with some restrictions on how you can use it; I think only Druids (Druid's Vestments) and Clerics (Cassock of Devotion) have them in the core book, but more will likely be printed in the future
Is it confirmed that you can't cast lower level spells with higher level slots without using Signature Spells?No? Or at least not my knowledge. What it sounds like is that you can do this, but don't get the benefits of any Heightening.That's all some are asking for. To be able to use a higher level spell slot on a lower level spell without extra benefits, as if it had been cast at its native level as in PF1 without using any metamatic feats.
For example, a level 6 sorcerer that knows Invisibility at level 2. On a sneaky day they expend all their level 2 spells on it, yet there is more demand to sneak than anything else, so they expend level 3 slots to power further castings, without heightening/signature spells/etc.
Yep, this is a concern for me, too.
Right now, it's coming across as making spontaneous casters less spontaneous. Prep casters prepare each of their spell slots with a specific spell, and can change this on a daily basis (at least, certain abilities allow for additional changes during the day). Spont casters instead prepare (yes, I'm using that word deliberately) a list of spells for each level of spell slot on a level-up or retraining basis (with only signature spell and a few other abilities mentioned above to change that setup).
Hopefully, the GMG or P2E Unchained will include an alternative to this (along with Arcanist-style prep casting) somewhere down the line.
Too late to edit.
Alternatively, I'd like to see this addressed in the fiction, assuming the novels or comics come back. I want to see the main characters come across a problem that is solvable with a first-level spell that, say, Seoni knows (though not as a signature spell) but that she can't cast as she is out of first-level spell slots, despite otherwise having a nearly full tank.
Just like I'd like to see a wizard or other prep caster actually come out and say "Darn it, I had...
I love hard sci-fi and the fantasy equivalent (hard fantasy?) where magic is codified and the theory and workings are both explained to the reader and interacted with by the characters.
If they put out a series of novels where the Vancian system was explained in universe and actually used and interacted with by the characters, and there was discussion of the minutiae of spell components, I would buy every single one ASAP.
As it is, I avoid Pathfinder/D&D novels because they refuse to interact with the mechanical systems in the games, so they feel completely disconnected.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
As it is, I avoid Pathfinder/D&D novels because they refuse to interact with the mechanical systems in the games, so they feel completely disconnected.
When reading the Pathfinder Tales novels I have, on several occasions, quite literally been able to figure out a character's Class and level just from the story (mostly, from what spells were being used and when they ran out). In some cases the authors went on to confirm my analysis on these forums.
Some are a bit harder than others, and some have unique templates or powers, but they absolutely interact with the system in a very direct way for the most part.
If they put out a series of novels where the Vancian system was explained in universe and actually used and interacted with by the characters, and there was discussion of the minutiae of spell components, I would buy every single one ASAP.
As it is, I avoid Pathfinder/D&D novels because they refuse to interact with the mechanical systems in the games, so they feel completely disconnected.
IIRC, the Dragonlance novels got this right. And that was in AD&D, where there were a lot more oddities to cover. They even had an in-character bit about how the gods had decreed that magic-users could only use daggers and staves because they'd be too powerful otherwise.
|
As it is, I avoid Pathfinder/D&D novels because they refuse to interact with the mechanical systems in the games, so they feel completely disconnected.When reading the Pathfinder Tales novels I have, on several occasions, quite literally been able to figure out a character's Class and level just from the story (mostly, from what spells were being used and when they ran out). In some cases the authors went on to confirm my analysis on these forums.
Some are a bit harder than others, and some have unique templates or powers, but they absolutely interact with the system in a very direct way for the most part.
I was reading an Eberron novel once and had to stop, it beat you over the head with working the mechanics into the narration. Like constantly mentioning range between the enemies and their attacks and awareness of attack of opportunities and will saves.
Which is sad cause I was really looking forward to that one.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As it is, I avoid Pathfinder/D&D novels because they refuse to interact with the mechanical systems in the games, so they feel completely disconnected.
They interact, but only as long as the caster in question is a spont caster or an arcanist (even if they're referred to as a wizard). They go as far as "know or don't spell/have or doesn't have prepared spell" and "has supernatural oomph to still cast spell", but not all the way.
It's especially disconcerting with divine casters. I remember the novel with the urban druid who has the spells she needs as soon as the situation arises, but there's never a nod to "I should have prayed for Blah spell" or "I'm glad I thought I might need this ahead of time".
Druids don't really do the praying thing though, and if it's the novel I'm thinking the Cobblestone Druid was an infiltration specialist/assassin, so forethought and being prepared was kinda her thing.
Does it really change the sentiment to say "I should have meditated over the mysteries of blah spell" as opposed to pray? Does anything really change about the nature of the complaint?
|
|
Druids don't really do the praying thing though, and if it's the novel I'm thinking the Cobblestone Druid was an infiltration specialist/assassin, so forethought and being prepared was kinda her thing.Does it really change the sentiment to say "I should have meditated over the mysteries of blah spell" as opposed to pray? Does anything really change about the nature of the complaint?
We pick from a player perspective, but from the character perspective I believe it was nature/the city gifting the spells.
It'd been awhile since I've read it though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just think most writers don't want to be bogged down by in universe mechanics.
You see similar issues with the settings at large. One of the reasons Forgotten Realms always really bugged me... Writers want to simultaneously present a high a magic world with easy access to all sorts of mystical items and spells, but they also want a medieval/renaissance era environment, so the magical and more mundane aspects of the setting kind of ignore each other.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Druids don't really do the praying thing though, and if it's the novel I'm thinking the Cobblestone Druid was an infiltration specialist/assassin, so forethought and being prepared was kinda her thing.
There is surely some middle ground between constantly beating the reader over the head with descriptions of the mechanics in the narrative and not mentioning them at all during a novel series' almost ten year run. Just one, single nod would have sufficed.
"He knew of the spell that would have directly solved his problem, but alas, it was not one of the blessings his goddess granted (alternatively, not among the blessings he had thought to ask for). Nevertheless, he had faith that his goddess's blessings that hehad asked for that day would carry him through, if he could but show the wisdom to apply them correctly."
I remember one novel that I believe was set in Taldor about a spy school disguised as a performing troupe that describes the main character preparing his spells as performing all but the last notes of a song, waiting for the final cadences to complete the spell and evoke its effect. Never minding that I don't know whether this is supposed to be a bard (because music) or wizard (because prep casting), this is an almost perfect in-universe description of the notion that a prepared spell is really the initial prep work AND its final trigger. And I only recall such a description appearing in the Pathfinder novels once, but it was enough.
I wouldn't be on this tangent now had at least one such nod also been given to "I'm glad I thought to/Why didn't I think to prepare that spell twice". As it stands, I'm not convinced that we've ever seen a Pathfinder the Game style prep caster in any Pathfinder fiction. An arcanist or a spont caster? Sure. And we definitely see divine casters that cast arcanistly while also demonstrating a 0% fail rate in terms of guessing what spells they'll need.
Edit: Also, which Eberron novel?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just realized it's kind of weird that not even the Signature Spell text uses specific term for Undercasting, everything is Heighten Heighten Heighten despite the system functioning in both directions equally. I don't know, Spontaneous Signature Spell is not the only element of the system and maybe Heighten is clearest format for Spellblocks, but I feel like they should at least have included a single verb to describe Undercasting in Signature Spells... Undercasting and Overcasting pair nicely and really they could both be used in Signature Spells to give the concept better presence.
Also, anybody feel like posting the text of the boring old generic spellcasting rules, specifically on Spontaneous Casting?
I previously tried to say this, but people went and posted the text of Signature Spell anyways even though that is not the place to discuss how things work when NOT using that ability and when NOT applying "Heighten" effects (which are really different spells), you want to see how using a specific spell slot is worded i.e. specifically "of" that level or "up to" or "of that level or less". Doesn't need to be in your face, and probably won't be, because it isn't doing anything special and is only doing less "magic power" than the slot is capable of, but if it works like 3.x/1E then it allows some flexibility in exchange for generically underpowered spell effects.
I just realized it's kind of weird that not even the Signature Spell text uses specific term for Undercasting, everything is Heighten Heighten Heighten despite the system functioning in both directions equally. I don't know, Spontaneous Signature Spell is not the only element of the system and maybe Heighten is clearest format for Spellblocks, but I feel like they should at least have included a single verb to describe Undercasting in Signature Spells... Undercasting and Overcasting pair nicely and really they could both be used in Signature Spells to give the concept better presence.
Also, anybody feel like posting the text of the boring old generic spellcasting rules, specifically on Spontaneous Casting?
I previously tried to say this, but people went and posted the text of Signature Spell anyways even though that is not the place to discuss how things work when NOT using that ability and when NOT applying "Heighten" effects (which are really different spells), you want to see how using a specific spell slot is worded i.e. specifically "of" that level or "up to" or "of that level or less". Doesn't need to be in your face, and probably won't be, because it isn't doing anything special and is only doing less "magic power" than the slot is capable of, but if it works like 3.x/1E then it allows some flexibility in exchange for generically underpowered spell effects.
If no one else posts this by the time I get home in a couple hours, I'll do it. At the very least I can say that you're able to use your spell slots much more freely, as you can use them to cast any spell of equal level to the slot that you have in your spell repertoire.
It also mentions that you can change out spells that are in your repertoire whenever you level up, or by using the retraining downtime action.
Sorcerer Spellcasting: Your bloodline provides you with incredible magical power. You can cast spells using the Cast a Spell activity, and you can supply material, somatic, and verbal components when casting spells (see Casting Spells on page 302). Because you're a sorcerer, you can usually replace material components with somatic components, so you don't need to use a spell component pouch.
Each day, you can cast up to three 1st-level spells. You must know spells to cast them, and you learn them via the spell repertoire class feature. The number of spells you can cast each day is called your spell slots.
As you increase in level as a sorcerer, your number of spells per day increases, as does the highest level of spells you can cast, as shown on Table 3–17: Sorcerer Spells per Day on page 193.
Heightening Spells: When you get spell slots of 2nd level and higher, you can fill those slots with stronger versions of lower-level spells. This increases the spell's level to match the spell slot. You must have a spell in your spell repertoire at the level you want to cast in order to heighten it to that level. Many spells have specific improvements when they are heightened to certain levels (page 299). The signature spells class feature lets you heighten certain spells freely.
I don't have the books myself but I asked a friend that have to text me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey Kyrone, he'll probably want the Spell Repertoire class feature details as well. Since that's pretty important.
Spell Repertoire: The collection of spells you can cast is called your spell repertoire. At 1st level, you learn two 1st-level spells of your choice and four cantrips of your choice, as well as an additional spell and cantrip from your bloodline (page 194). You choose these from the common spells from the tradition corresponding to your bloodline, or from other spells from that tradition to which you have access. You can cast any spell in your spell repertoire by using a spell slot of an appropriate spell level.
You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–17), you add a spell of the same level to your spell repertoire. When you gain access to a new level of spells, your first new spell is always your bloodline spell, but you can choose the other spells you gain. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you gain a new bloodline spell and two other 2nd-level spells, and so on. When you add spells, you might choose a higher-level version of a spell you already have so that you can cast a heightened version of that spell.
Though you gain them at the same rate, your spell slots and the spells in your spell repertoire are separate. If a feat or other ability adds a spell to your spell repertoire, it Wouldn't give you another spell slot, and vice versa.
Swapping Spells in Your Repertoire: As you gain new spells in your spell repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip, but you can't swap out bloodline spells. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime (page 481).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks (you & your friend) for looking it up,
it looks like it has same wording as Playtest unless there is some tidbit elsewhere that is more explicit:
"You can cast any spell in your spell repertoire by using a spell slot of an appropriate spell level."
With "appropriate" not strictly defined, AFAIK. Seems reasonable that a slot that is equal or higher is "appropriate"
(as in allowable, or sufficient, if not necessarily most efficient), but doesn't look like it is explicitly stated.
I guess I can see this falling thru the cracks with a dev focus on "Heightening", the idea of not getting any enhanced benefit from higher level slot
i.e. NOT Heightening the spell just USING it with high level slot (and cast spell remains lower level for all purposes) have been overlooked.
Seems like FAQ material at the least, hopefully they address this after Gencon.
This is a very weird interpretation of the rule in my opinion, appropriate clearly means that you can only use the slot level that the spell is in.
Having spells of lower level that you cast using a higher level slot but with no benefits of heightening would be confusing and really strange.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know, anybody who has driven a heavy duty full size pickup with only a cooler in the back could probably understand the concept?
Seems like "you must always cast the maximum power spell a slot can handle" is more specific requirement that needs explicit statement.
Well, Gencon will finish sooner or later...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a very weird interpretation of the rule in my opinion, appropriate clearly means that you can only use the slot level that the spell is in.
Having spells of lower level that you cast using a higher level slot but with no benefits of heightening would be confusing and really strange.
It didn't confuse players of PF1 though.
But it is annoying that the rulebook isn't clear on this point, unless everyone has missed something.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have thought about it a couple more days, and reading the rule book it is very clear to me that a spontaneous caster is indeed stuck to only casting level 2 spells with level 2 spell slots (Unless you have them as your selected specialty spells). This chafed me for a while, I was upset it wasn't clearly defined....
But it doesn't need to be. I am coming from 1e, and that is making this weird for me. A new player picking up the book who had never played a 3.5 system would probably never think of it that way. They would see their options and go.
It's one of the difficulties with a new system I will have. The rules are easy to read, the assumptions I don't even think about are hard.
I think the question of if you can cast a level 2 spell as a level 2 spell in a level 3 slot is a good candidate for the first batch of FAQs.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the rule would need to be along the lines of, "Casters can freely trade one higher-level slot for one lower-level slot. Prepared casters must do this when preparing spells."
PF2 cares about what the slot you cast a spell from was. So if you want to avoid stepping on the toes of any rules, just let move the slot to the spell rather than the spell to the slot.
I think the rule would need to be along the lines of, "Casters can freely trade one higher-level slot for one lower-level slot. Prepared casters must do this when preparing spells."
PF2 cares about what the slot you cast a spell from was. So if you want to avoid stepping on the toes of any rules, just let move the slot to the spell rather than the spell to the slot.
Is this actually true? I don't believe so, everything hinges on the spell level, not the slot. Neither 2E or 1E actually talking about spending slots or trading slots and the like. It is only casting spells, with eligibility restrictions on slots (or daily limit for spells of that level etc), but Spell Slots themselves are not source of specific mechanic.
Actually, just comparing 2E to 1E, 2E seems to lack some wording in 1E that was contradictory to allowing non-Heightened "level 2 in level 3 slot", even if 2E lacks 1E's explicit suggestion it DOES work:
1E (allowing this):
First you must choose which spell to cast... If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.1E (contradicting this):
If you’re a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven’t reached your limit.
He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.
Of course, it's awkward to parse this because for whatever reason the rules avoiding directly speaking of "spending spell slots" but only obtusely imply such a paradigm (2E continues this approach).
Anyhow, 2E (Playtest) lacks the contradicting text, and even though it lacks the explicitly affirming text, I think in the net balance it is MORE justified to allow this functionality than in 1E... Which IME always was played ALLOWING this functionality despite contradictory text*. Without specific statement that a spell slot can only be used for maximally powerful spell, I don't see any reason to treat it more restrictively than e.g. a backpack with large capacity yet is considered appropriate to hold a smaller item. (maybe best analogy is magical holding spaces that specifically hold only one item)
* Interestingly, the contradictory text uses "counts against" language that perhaps more directly acknowledges "slot" system, even if in passive aggressive manner. Yet since the rules generally avoid this framing, prioritizing this unique (yet passive/indirect) reference to the concept seems dubious. I guess over-all this re-enforces my belief that rules should be conveyed via terms which allow it's reasonable discussion. Otherwise, players inevitably are forced to "create" terms which don't actually exist, which runs into problems when determining exact RAW functionality.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the rule would need to be along the lines of, "Casters can freely trade one higher-level slot for one lower-level slot. Prepared casters must do this when preparing spells."
PF2 cares about what the slot you cast a spell from was. So if you want to avoid stepping on the toes of any rules, just let move the slot to the spell rather than the spell to the slot.
This actually sounds like the perfect approach to this issue. It avoids the confusion of using a different level spell in a different level slot but not actually heightening it. Hopefully the designers agree. Though if not, I think I'll make it a rule for my games anyway.
Phrasing it in line with approach they already use, i.e. not "spending/trading slots" (which in theory I might prefer, but only if used consistently),
I would say even if FAQ might be nice immediately, an Errata which is 100% clear might be:
...Which pretty much follows same formula used in 1E to explicitly affirm it (only difference being convention of 'level' vs 'spell level')
That would also happen to use the exact same character count as existing text ("by using a spell slot of an appropriate spell level").
|
I think the Spontaneous vs Prepared discussion moved into "Heightening Spontaneous vs Prepared". And under that discussion, in this new edition you would need to understand cantrip and focus spell heightening. Both are "Auto Heightened" (half level rounded up). It seems to me that they are where the real flexibility lies in up/down casting. They don't consume other slots but are always getting more powerful.
I know focus spells are limited to a max of 3 per combat (assuming you have gained 3 of them) but cantrip and focus seem to be more the bread and butter. While all of the "spell slot" spells are your "Big Bang" or "I have this just in case".
*shrug* just an impression thus far
There are at least a couple of ways to regain focus points mid-combat. I feel like there's another one I'm forgetting, but here's two off the top of my head:
- A familiar master ability Familiar Focus lets you spend an action to have your familiar spend 2 actions to let you regain a focus point (once/day)
- There are a class of items with the "focused" trait that let you gain a temporary focus point with some restrictions on how you can use it; I think only Druids (Druid's Vestments) and Clerics (Cassock of Devotion) have them in the core book, but more will likely be printed in the future
Sounds like it would be easy to create "Wizards Robes" to gain an Arcane focus point or "Mesmerist's Monocle" to gain an Occult Focus pt.
|
|
I think the rule would need to be along the lines of, "Casters can freely trade one higher-level slot for one lower-level slot. Prepared casters must do this when preparing spells."
PF2 cares about what the slot you cast a spell from was. So if you want to avoid stepping on the toes of any rules, just let move the slot to the spell rather than the spell to the slot.
I think I'll do the same. Sorcerers can do it on the fly if needed, other casters when they prepare their spells each morning.
As it is, I avoid Pathfinder/D&D novels because they refuse to interact with the mechanical systems in the games, so they feel completely disconnected.When reading the Pathfinder Tales novels I have, on several occasions, quite literally been able to figure out a character's Class and level just from the story (mostly, from what spells were being used and when they ran out). In some cases the authors went on to confirm my analysis on these forums.
Some are a bit harder than others, and some have unique templates or powers, but they absolutely interact with the system in a very direct way for the most part.
I was reading an Eberron novel once and had to stop, it beat you over the head with working the mechanics into the narration. Like constantly mentioning range between the enemies and their attacks and awareness of attack of opportunities and will saves.
Which is sad cause I was really looking forward to that one.
That sounds rather promising, any chance you recall which one?
|
|
Hmm, we might be thinking of different novels then, I was going off the Pathfinder Tales Blood of the City.There is surely some middle ground between constantly beating the reader over the head with descriptions of the mechanics in the narrative and not mentioning them at all during a novel series' almost ten year run. Just one, single nod would have sufficed.
"He knew of the spell that would have directly solved his problem, but alas, it was not one of the blessings his goddess granted (alternatively, not among the blessings he had thought to ask for). Nevertheless, he had faith that his goddess's blessings that hehad asked for that day would carry him through, if he could but show the wisdom to apply them correctly."
I remember one novel that I believe was set in Taldor about a spy school disguised as a performing troupe that describes the main character preparing his spells as performing all but the last notes of a song, waiting for the final cadences to complete the spell and evoke its effect. Never minding that I don't know whether this is supposed to be a bard (because music) or wizard (because prep casting), this is an almost perfect in-universe description of the notion that a prepared spell is really the initial prep work AND its final trigger. And I only recall such a description appearing in the Pathfinder novels once, but it was enough.The Dagger of Trust, good book. And there was some blending but he was a Bard, basically building himself up and getting into the mindset for the right bit of magic. Another Tales, Plague of Shadows, had a similar thing. The Bard cast on a certain line of a song and put emphasis on it.
I wouldn't be on this tangent now had at least one such nod also been given to "I'm glad I thought to/Why didn't I think to prepare that spell twice". As it stands, I'm not convinced that we've ever seen a Pathfinder the Game style prep caster in any Pathfinder fiction. An arcanist or a spont caster? Sure. And we definitely see divine casters that cast arcanistly while also demonstrating a 0% fail rate in terms of guessing what spells they'll need.Hmm, not counting Alchemist, I think Varian from Dave Gross' stuff uses it when he's being a Magus. Gears of Faith goes over how the Cleric character selects her spells so there's a definite example.
Edit: Also, which Eberron novel?
Lady Ruin.
I was excited for Karnath and Daelkyr stuff ;_;
I think I'll do the same. Sorcerers can do it on the fly if needed, other casters when they prepare their spells each morning.I think the rule would need to be along the lines of, "Casters can freely trade one higher-level slot for one lower-level slot. Prepared casters must do this when preparing spells."
PF2 cares about what the slot you cast a spell from was. So if you want to avoid stepping on the toes of any rules, just let move the slot to the spell rather than the spell to the slot.
Can't prepared casters already do the bolded bit anyway? 'Heighten' any spell for no mechanical benefit?
Can't prepared casters already do the bolded bit anyway? 'Heighten' any spell for no mechanical benefit?I think I'll do the same. Sorcerers can do it on the fly if needed, other casters when they prepare their spells each morning.I think the rule would need to be along the lines of, "Casters can freely trade one higher-level slot for one lower-level slot. Prepared casters must do this when preparing spells."
PF2 cares about what the slot you cast a spell from was. So if you want to avoid stepping on the toes of any rules, just let move the slot to the spell rather than the spell to the slot.
Technically, when a prepared caster heightens a spell with no heighten effect or that level, it still gets *a* benefit. It is still treated as a higher level spell for the purposes of counteracting it.
Can't prepared casters already do the bolded bit anyway? 'Heighten' any spell for no mechanical benefit?I think I'll do the same. Sorcerers can do it on the fly if needed, other casters when they prepare their spells each morning.I think the rule would need to be along the lines of, "Casters can freely trade one higher-level slot for one lower-level slot. Prepared casters must do this when preparing spells."
PF2 cares about what the slot you cast a spell from was. So if you want to avoid stepping on the toes of any rules, just let move the slot to the spell rather than the spell to the slot.
They learn all spells at the minimum level and can always heighten them. They always get a mechanical benefit, though, because they at least get the advantage of a higher level for counteract purposes.
Hmm, we might be thinking of different novels then, I was going off the Pathfinder Tales Blood of the City.
Um, that was what I was thinking of, too. The text I put in quotes is of a hypothetical line of text that, had it appeared at least once in just one of the novels, would have helped the magic of Pathfinder the Setting match the magic of Pathfinder the Game. The main character from Blood of the City can be an infiltration specialist all she wants, but if we never see anything to suggest that she doesn't have a 0% fail rate in terms of guessing her spells (either by showing her guessing wrong or even just by having her acknowledge that she could guess wrong), then it doesn't come across as her showing forethought so much as it comes across as her having read the novels that she's in (i.e., more fourth-wall-awareness than Deadpool).
Hmm, not counting Alchemist, I think Varian from Dave Gross' stuff uses it when he's being a Magus. Gears of Faith goes over how the Cleric character selects her spells so there's a definite example.
I don't recall Jeggare acknowledging that logistical wart in any of his novels (having to select spells, yes, having to select how many of each particular spell, no). I.e., I will readily believe you if you tell me that Jeggare was an arcanist or a multiclass arcanist. Same thing with our cleric of Brigh in Gears of Faith; I recall her deciding what spells to ask for, not weighing two castings of one spell versus having a wider selection of one-use spells. I.e., she's a 5E cleric before she's anything from Pathfinder.
Lady Ruin.
I was excited for Karnath and Daelkyr stuff ;_;
I'll have to reread that. At most, I remember the chapters taking forever (IIRC, it was a full length novel divided into only nine chapters).
|
|
Hmm, we might be thinking of different novels then, I was going off the Pathfinder Tales Blood of the City.Um, that was what I was thinking of, too. The text I put in quotes is of a hypothetical line of text that, had it appeared at least once in just one of the novels, would have helped the magic of Pathfinder the Setting match the magic of Pathfinder the Game. The main character from Blood of the City can be an infiltration specialist all she wants, but if we never see anything to suggest that she doesn't have a 0% fail rate in terms of guessing her spells (either by showing her guessing wrong or even just by having her acknowledge that she could guess wrong), then it doesn't come across as her showing forethought so much as it comes across as her having read the novels that she's in (i.e., more fourth-wall-awareness than Deadpool).
Hmm, not counting Alchemist, I think Varian from Dave Gross' stuff uses it when he's being a Magus. Gears of Faith goes over how the Cleric character selects her spells so there's a definite example.I don't recall Jeggare acknowledging that logistical wart in any of his novels (having to select spells, yes, having to select how many of each particular spell, no). I.e., I will readily believe you if you tell me that Jeggare was an arcanist or a multiclass arcanist. Same thing with our cleric of Brigh in Gears of Faith; I recall her deciding what spells to ask for, not weighing two castings of one spell versus having a wider selection of one-use spells. I.e., she's a 5E cleric before she's anything from Pathfinder.
I'll have to reread that. At most, I remember the chapters taking forever (IIRC, it was a full length novel divided into only nine chapters).Lady Ruin.
I was excited for Karnath and Daelkyr stuff ;_;
A) Ah, gotcha. But then, none of her spells really stuck out to me as coming from left field aka needed to have read the novel she was in to know she would have needed that.
B) Varian has been a lot of things (I believe in one of the blogs it was an ingame example of the rebuilding rules) and I believe he is an Arcanist as of the latest book.
As for the Cleric I don't remember her asking for specific numbers, or at least telling the reader as such, but she did ask for more than one which I'm okay, asking for specific numbers of each spell would be something that broke immersion for me.
C) Oof. I didn't make it past the first couple of pages. I saw 15ft and 30ft mentioned too many times >_<
|
After doing a bit of reading through the spell list my opinion has kind of shifted when it comes to Spontaneous casters having fewer heightening options. Bards seem to beat out Sorcerer's here since they have feats to expand their number of Signature Spells but overall this is only a boon if you stick to picking up spells that heighten at every level. There are a ton of spells in the book that only heighten at certain levels so it makes sense to only really take them in appropriate slots.
I do wish that Sorcerers got access to the feats that add to their Signature Spells or even feats that add spells to their Bloodline Spells because it kind of seems those riders are supposed to be a big feature of the class but won't come up often enough unless you're spamming powers and your granted spells that require slots.
Edit: Obviously the Arcane casting Sorcerer wins out here since they can add Signature Spells but would still prefer some sort of class feat in there to add spells to your Bloodline list.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
^ Agreed, and I think what you mention re: Invisibility brings a point of my disagreement with Eoni above,
who seems to believe Signature Spells are only a boon if you pick ones spanning level 1-9.
Well, just on face value that is untrue because one additional spell known is still a 'boon' even if you consider it a 'lesser' boon than having 8 additional spells known (eventually). But that doesn't consider what they are actually doing. Invisibility/Greater Invisiblity being heightened versions of one spell points to the very different utility you can get from a Signature Spell with just 2 variations. Whereas Summon might have 1-9 options but is that really 9X the actual value? When you can cast 9th level spells, Summons 1-4 probably are all equally speed bumps or "trap bait" so why actually count them as 4X distinct valuable spells known?
So I think a better metric of spell value is "would you consider learning it independently anyways"? Most people probably wouldn't learn Summons 1-9, so counting that as 8 bonus spells is not really plausible. Most people probably would consider knowing Invisibility and Greater Invisibility (consider, not that everybody would).
I just don't think dedicating one's Signature Spells on primary basis of how many level versions they have is a wise strategy. Of course, some spells like Dispel Magic do basically the same thing at all levels but it's "power" (Counteract check) is based on Spell Level, so having it as Signature Spell means if you cast all your high level slots on something else you can still cast it with lower slot at slightly worse chances of success.
I can see why people might like it for various types of blasts (damage type, # of targets/ AoE shape, etc) that have simple damage scaling/level, but spells which don't have +1 Heighten options but just offer unique relevant effects at 2 or 3 levels certainly seem worthwhile usage of it as well. And now with 1/level (or more via certain options) there will be plenty enough to allocate towards all these different types of spells, 1-9 variants and 2/3-level variant spells.
Very true, you will want to learn the "unique Heighten effect" spells (like Invisibility) only at their specific Heighten levels. Spells with +1 Heighten options every spell level (often damage or Summon/Dispel) have alot more flexibility since they do get value out of every spell level, so if their base version might conflict with spell level of a "unique Heighten effect" spell, you might learn it at +1 so you can designate both simultaneously... Although it then is in competition vs actual spells of that level, with Arcane Evolution you can have choice of getting 2x SigSpell for that level, or expanding spell repertoire from spellbook, and the native +1 Heightened can still give good value for spell level when you don't designate it as SigSpell.