PF1 Monks were a tricky thing
On the one hand they got those ridiculous big damage dice, on the other it is hard to keep up either in hit ratio or in survivability
In one game I played a monk and my girlfriend was totally down because of the huge damage numbers I had
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From a thematic standpoint, big and burly (or just obscenely athletic) monks make way more sense to me than folk who are just as strong and tough as your average person. Like, how can one throw down with bears if they're scrawny and weak like ordinary peasants.
Mystical monk abilities.
Never pick a fight with a frail old hermit living on the side of the mountain.
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Also that in Wuxia stories, bulky & heavily muscular characters usually tend to be a supporting role, not a main protagonist.
At least, the readers of this genre seem to prefer lithe heroes over bulky ones.
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I remember a character who couldn't lift a rock (maybe40to60 punts) but throw a full grown man several meters far - it all depended on technique
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Also that in Wuxia stories, bulky & heavily muscular characters usually tend to be a supporting role, not a main protagonist.
At least, the readers of this genre seem to prefer lithe heroes over bulky ones.
Forcing tropes is how the genre dies. It's how player agency dies.
Hokuto no Ken and JoJo's are excellent examples of enjoyable meathead protagonists.
Also, players are in no way supposed to have the agency of protagonists of standard stories. Sometimes they are supporting, sometimes they are leading.
But allowing for self-expression and mold-breaking is the baseline for any respectable RPG.
Enforcing things because it's "the standard fantasy" is never a justification.
So yeah, let's have all types of monks. But make the balance sensible.
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Also that in Wuxia stories, bulky & heavily muscular characters usually tend to be a supporting role, not a main protagonist.
At least, the readers of this genre seem to prefer lithe heroes over bulky ones.Forcing tropes is how the genre dies. It's how player agency dies.
Hokuto no Ken and JoJo's are excellent examples of enjoyable meathead protagonists.
Also, players are in no way supposed to have the agency of protagonists of standard stories. Sometimes they are supporting, sometimes they are leading.
But allowing for self-expression and mold-breaking is the baseline for any respectable RPG.
Enforcing things because it's "the standard fantasy" is never a justification.
So yeah, let's have all types of monks. But make the balance sensible.
You can have all kinds of monks. They may just have 'Fighter' written on your sheet.
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I just skimmed the new blog update, honed in on the part about the Mountain Stance. And I'm basically interpreting it as a message from the universe saying, sure, it's okay to not invest any boosts in Dex and Wis. Go crazy, make a dumb, meaty bruiser who's all Str and Con, and make sure your feet are firmly planted whenever you're doing your best BEAR-PUNCHING POSE.
In all seriousness, I'm super excited times 1000.
(Edit) Also I just realized that Monks add 10 to their HP per level. I thought their hit die was previously a d8.
UMonks were d10 in PF1, which extended to the playtest and, apparently, the final rules.
But nothing in Mountain stance means you can ignore Wis, but you can use it to make a monk with really high Str, Con, Wis, and either Int or Cha by leaving Dex at 10. Reflex saves might be an issue, but you'll probably be able to get legendary reflex with 10 dex (equal to trained with 22 Dex.)
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I just skimmed the new blog update, honed in on the part about the Mountain Stance. And I'm basically interpreting it as a message from the universe saying, sure, it's okay to not invest any boosts in Dex and Wis. Go crazy, make a dumb, meaty bruiser who's all Str and Con, and make sure your feet are firmly planted whenever you're doing your best BEAR-PUNCHING POSE.
In all seriousness, I'm super excited times 1000.
(Edit) Also I just realized that Monks add 10 to their HP per level. I thought their hit die was previously a d8.
UMonks were d10 in PF1, which extended to the playtest and, apparently, the final rules.
But nothing in Mountain stance means you can ignore Wis, but you can use it to make a monk with really high Str, Con, Wis, and either Int or Cha by leaving Dex at 10. Reflex saves might be an issue, but you'll probably be able to get legendary reflex with 10 dex (equal to trained with 22 Dex.)
If Ki powers are opt-in and/or focus pool isn’t dependent on wis then wis can be ignored safely.
If Ki powers are opt-in and/or focus pool isn’t dependent on wis then wis can be ignored safely.
I feel like, given the legacy of the class monks should have some use for wisdom besides skills, will saves, and perception (I mean, that's plenty, but monks should probably be able to get more out of wisdom than, like, Barbarians.
But if a specific concept is that you have a monk who is big and strong and smart and charismatic but not wise or quick, sure you can build that way but you up stats 4 at a time so I figure most monks are going to be putting boosts in Wis and Mountain Stance monks are going to be upping Int or Cha.
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If Ki powers are opt-in and/or focus pool isn’t dependent on wis then wis can be ignored safely.I feel like, given the legacy of the class monks should have some use for wisdom besides skills, will saves, and perception (I mean, that's plenty, but monks should probably be able to get more out of wisdom than, like, Barbarians.
But if a specific concept is that you have a monk who is big and strong and smart and charismatic but not wise or dex, sure you can build that way but you up stats 4 at a time so I figure most monks are going to be putting boosts in Wis and Mountain Stance monks are going to be upping Int or Cha.
Wis will probably affect their Ki saves. I agree Wis should have importance to Monks; just not so much if the person wishes to make a Bear Punching meat-head.
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Not sold on Iron Mountain Stance until I see the follow-up feat, and whether it's constantly active.
STR/DEX Monks, in any proportion, should see a few points of extra AC in scaling, and I'm not sold on CON being important in PF2 to make 1 extra free ability score matter.
Not sold on Iron Mountain Stance until I see the follow-up feat, and whether it's constantly active.
STR/DEX Monks, in any proportion, should see a few points of extra AC in scaling, and I'm not sold on CON being important in PF2 to make 1 extra free ability score matter.
It's a stance so you have to activate it with an action in combat.
"Stance: A stance is a general combat strategy that you enter by using an action with the stance trait. You can enter a stance only in encounter mode. A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, or until you enter a new stance, whichever comes first."
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Not sold on Iron Mountain Stance until I see the follow-up feat, and whether it's constantly active.
STR/DEX Monks, in any proportion, should see a few points of extra AC in scaling, and I'm not sold on CON being important in PF2 to make 1 extra free ability score matter.
Isn't that what their proficiency for? At level 1, a monk can get 19 AC either using mountain stance or 18 Dex. That's only 1 point someone in full plate, assuming the item bonuses remained the same. And that's before any bracers/adventurer clothes. By the time they get Legendary there is another+4 scaling bonus on top of their level and whatever else.
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Not sold on Iron Mountain Stance until I see the follow-up feat, and whether it's constantly active.
STR/DEX Monks, in any proportion, should see a few points of extra AC in scaling, and I'm not sold on CON being important in PF2 to make 1 extra free ability score matter.
Iron Mountain's unarmed strike has the Forceful property. A full meathead Monk with it is likely going to be the hardest hitting build for the class.
Isn't that what their proficiency for? At level 1, a monk can get 19 AC either using mountain stance or 18 Dex. That's only 1 point someone in full plate, assuming the item bonuses remained the same. And that's before any bracers/adventurer clothes. By the time they get Legendary there is another+4 scaling bonus on top of their level and whatever else.Not sold on Iron Mountain Stance until I see the follow-up feat, and whether it's constantly active.
STR/DEX Monks, in any proportion, should see a few points of extra AC in scaling, and I'm not sold on CON being important in PF2 to make 1 extra free ability score matter.
The worry for me is when you get attacked BEFORE you're in the stance. The guy in plate doesn't have to put his armor on in combat... For instance, activate a trap out of combat and you're looking at your non-stance AC.
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The worry for me is when you get attacked BEFORE you're in the stance. The guy in plate doesn't have to put his armor on in combat... For instance, activate a trap out of combat and you're looking at your non-stance AC.
True, but it's a whole +4. That leaves you with not great AC, but not truly terrible either.
At 1st level it's a 15, which is probably higher than some Wizards. At 20th it's around 42...which is still probably on par with most Wizards (who likely max out at precisely 42 assuming Dex 18).
So it's towards the low end for ACs of that level, but within the expected range.
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The worry for me is when you get attacked BEFORE you're in the stance. The guy in plate doesn't have to put his armor on in combat... For instance, activate a trap out of combat and you're looking at your non-stance AC.True, but it's a whole +4. That leaves you with not great AC, but not truly terrible either.
At 1st level it's a 15, which is probably higher than some Wizards. At 20th it's around 42...which is still probably on par with most Wizards (who likely max out at precisely 42 assuming Dex 18).
So it's towards the low end for ACs of that level, but within the expected range.
True it's not rock bottom but it's a noticeable difference other melee don't see. I think I'm going to have to see this in action before I make up my mind. It also makes me want to bump up my initiative more than I otherwise would: I don't know if I want ki but more wisdom means less times I'm without the stance. That seems at odds thematically with the stance slowing you down 'rooting' you to the earth though... I want to go fast so I can slow down. :P
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True it's not rock bottom but it's a noticeable difference other melee don't see. I think I'm going to have to see this in action before I make up my mind. It also makes me want to bump up my initiative more than I otherwise would: I don't know if I want ki but more wisdom means less times I'm without the stance. That seems at odds thematically with the stance slowing you down 'rooting' you to the earth though... I want to go fast so I can slow down. :P
It synchronizes really well with Dwarf as an Ancestry and being stubborn and immovable as the earth, though. And, IC, having high initiative with Perception means you spotted what was going on and had time to act, more than being faster per se.
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The worry for me is when you get attacked BEFORE you're in the stance. The guy in plate doesn't have to put his armor on in combat... For instance, activate a trap out of combat and you're looking at your non-stance AC.True, but it's a whole +4. That leaves you with not great AC, but not truly terrible either.
At 1st level it's a 15, which is probably higher than some Wizards. At 20th it's around 42...which is still probably on par with most Wizards (who likely max out at precisely 42 assuming Dex 18).
So it's towards the low end for ACs of that level, but within the expected range.
And also Stance Savant to enter a stance on initiative being rolled can be helpful, both for action economy reasons and for this purpose.
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Oh yeah, that'd do it. Is Stance Savant available at a reasonable level? I remember during the playtest I despaired at how many of these simple quality of life feats were delayed to level 12 or worse in the playtest, especially for martials.
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And also Stance Savant to enter a stance on initiative being rolled can be helpful, both for action economy reasons and for this purpose.
What's this now? Stance Savant? You have my attention! That would solve most issues I have but I'm like Arachnofiend and wondering when I could take it.
Looks like it was 12th level in the playtest, hope it's lower now.
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I'd be happy if Stance Savant is somewhere during the "proficiency edge" of the Monk – i.e. between the moment where other classes aren't masters of armor yet, but while the Monk is.
Otherwise, it comes a bit too late.
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PF1 Monks were a tricky thing
On the one hand they got those ridiculous big damage dice, on the other it is hard to keep up either in hit ratio or in survivability
In one game I played a monk and my girlfriend was totally down because of the huge damage numbers I had
Not sure what you mean. Monk damage dice were inferior to just picking up a greatsword until 12th level, and didn't manage to be better until 16th.
Combining that with bad hit ratio and bad survivability makes for a shoddy class. The 3e/PF1 monk spent far too much of its class power just trying to catch up with someone in mundane equipment.
The pf2 monk looks to be in a much better place. The level one stances provide weapons that are on par (or better), and some utility benefits. AC looks to be slightly behind (at least it was in the playtest), but that was more the fault of mage armor/bracers of armor being slightly inferior. (And all other unarmored classes could just opt into light armor at minimal cost)
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...those ridiculous big damage dice...
Anyone remember the D&D 3E Monk (not 3.5)? They jumped straight from a d12 to a d20 for damage rolls! Only time I can recall seeing a d20 for a damage roll in any edition of D&D.
Looks like it was 12th level in the playtest, hope it's lower now.
If it's 12th, I've lost all interest: that level makes it functionally useless to me.
PS: *looks at playtest* yep, it was in the playtest but high enough that I didn't look at it. That's a bummer.
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You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?
It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
Yep, you nailed it: it's an awesome feat but it comes online about the very end of where my games wind down [levels 8-12].
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You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
Can't we base initiative on Wis instead though, so if you pump that there's a good chance you can go near the top of the initiative order. I mean, the style is supposedly a dwarf thing, and dwarves can do the wisdom thing.
So monk now is trained in simple weapons, are they also trained in weapons with the monk trait?
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Can't we base initiative on Wis instead though, so if you pump that there's a good chance you can go near the top of the initiative order. I mean, the style is supposedly a dwarf thing, and dwarves can do the wisdom thing.You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
Isn't initiative based on the exploring action? And the default is Perception, based off Wis? I'd expect a Mountain Stance Monk with decent Wisdom to be going pretty early in the running order.
So monk now is trained in simple weapons, are they also trained in weapons with the monk trait?
If they are simple monk weapons they are.
Isn't initiative based on the exploring action? And the default is Perception, based off Wis? I'd expect a Mountain Stance Monk with decent Wisdom to be going pretty early in the running order.Can't we base initiative on Wis instead though, so if you pump that there's a good chance you can go near the top of the initiative order. I mean, the style is supposedly a dwarf thing, and dwarves can do the wisdom thing.You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
If you have a good wisdom, sure. I know for myself, I wasn't thinking of much wis though I may be forced to: It's kind of just shifting the needed dex to a needed wis which is a lateral move IMO. I was hoping not needing dex would allow for more flexibility with stat placement.
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If you have a good wisdom, sure. I know for myself, I wasn't thinking of much wis though I may be forced to: It's kind of just shifting the needed dex to a needed wis which is a lateral move IMO. I was hoping not needing dex would allow for more flexibility with stat placement.Isn't initiative based on the exploring action? And the default is Perception, based off Wis? I'd expect a Mountain Stance Monk with decent Wisdom to be going pretty early in the running order.Can't we base initiative on Wis instead though, so if you pump that there's a good chance you can go near the top of the initiative order. I mean, the style is supposedly a dwarf thing, and dwarves can do the wisdom thing.You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
Sorry. I wasn't considering your specific build, more responding to PossibleCabbage on how Mountain Stance penalises your first turn AC because a low Dex means you have low initiative. It did, but now Wis, which most Monks will be decent in means this is less of an issue.
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I mean the mountain monk who wants neither dex or wis will have a pretty poor initiative presumably. But stats go up 4 at a time and monks who value Int and Cha over what are likely the two the two most powerful stats in the game should be rare.
Plus your 18 Cha monk can get initiative off of a social skill if a conversation leads into the fight.
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So monk now is trained in simple weapons, are they also trained in weapons with the monk trait?
Probably not, they weren't in the playtest. But there's a 1st level feat that gives them training in and access to martial monk weapons and also enables you to use monk weapons for things like Stunning Fist and flurry.
I think the concern is that because the new flurry doesn't impact your other 2 actions like the original flurry did (requiring ALL of your attacks to be made with unarmed strikes or monk weapons) the monk having too much weapon proficiency out the gate would make monks using weapons automatically better. So instead you spend a feat to be a weapon monk, while unarmed monks usually spend a feat to get a stance, that puts you on roughly equal footing with each other.
Yep, you nailed it: it's an awesome feat but it comes online about the very end of where my games wind down [levels 8-12].You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
I wouldn't assume games wind down at 8th -12th levels in PF2. Perhaps this structure makes for better, more natural scaling.
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I wouldn't assume games wind down at 8th -12th levels in PF2. Perhaps this structure makes for better, more natural scaling.Yep, you nailed it: it's an awesome feat but it comes online about the very end of where my games wind down [levels 8-12].You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
I don't think it's "the game breaks down into insanity" so much as it's very difficult to maintain a cohesive party/story going on for this long. The longer you go, the more likely it's the campaign will fall apart due to IRL stuff.
I wouldn't assume games wind down at 8th -12th levels in PF2. Perhaps this structure makes for better, more natural scaling.Yep, you nailed it: it's an awesome feat but it comes online about the very end of where my games wind down [levels 8-12].You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
One can hope. In this instance it seems they have been speaking from personal experience rather than overall play patterns.
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Secret Wizard, both ChibiNyan and Pumpkinhead11 are correct. I play PbP games online and games break down from RL issues [someone got a new job, back to school, got married, ect] before they ever got a chance to break down from anything inherent to the game could break it up.
In this situation, about the only time I can think of that I'd get much use out of a 12th level feat is if the game starts off at or above 12th, which is rare and most likely a one shot.
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A 1-20 game just takes so much time. My most successful groups have been ones that slice out a specific level bracket to play through and come to a conclusion long before we even sniff the high levels. If high level play makes sense in PF2 then that just means I'll play more games that start at a higher level (my groups already tend to not start at level 1, with 3 being the low end and 6 being about average).
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Considering that Mountain Stance was level 6 in the playtest and is level 1 now, and that a dev just said that Stance Savant was a good solution, I bet Savant has been made lower-level.Yep, you nailed it: it's an awesome feat but it comes online about the very end of where my games wind down [levels 8-12].You've lost interest in playing a monk because they need a turn to prepare for combat?It sounds like they lost interest in Stance Savant as a fix for Mountain Stance incentivizing low dex; so their main issue of lower AC on the first turn of combat is still relevant.
Well that was why I said "if" it was it's old level I lost interest in it. The lower it's level turns out the more interest I'd have in it.