Your player is right.
The wording for M.T. is the same than other prestige classes that continue spellcasting progression for one class such as the Arcane Trickster or the Loremaster.
One of my players insists that it gives access to higher level spell slots as though you were leveling in your original classes in addition to what was stated above. So a cleric3/wizard3/Mystic Theurge10 would have access to 7th level spells.
Your player is correct.
In its description it doesn't say that you gain access to higher level spells, only spellslots and/or spells known if you're a spontaneous caster.
Spells per day is how you gain access to higher level spells. Here's the relevant text:
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.
So if a Wizard-3/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-1 levels up (to Mystic Theurge-2), his Wizard spells-per-day gor from "4/3/2" to "4/3/2/1". This means they have access to 1 3rd level spell per day (plus bonuses from high INT). They do not gain the bonus spell-slot for school specialization, nor do they gain any spells known (although spontaneous character do gain spells-known I believe).
The same character would also go up as a cleric, going from "4/3/2" to "4/3/2/1" in their Cleric spells-per-day as well, although they would not gain a spell-slot or spell-known from their domain.
If anyone can provide clarity (not opinions) on just what the Mystic Theurge actually provides, I would greatly appreciate it. Something official like a FAQ or Errata quote would be awesome.
This is a really passive-agressive way to start a thread where you're asking for help. Maybe think about your tone a little.
EDIT: double ninja'd
In the past I've received a lot of replies that are mostly opinion. It tends to cause pointless arguments that bog down the thread while providing nothing of substance. That said, I didn't mean to be passive aggressive but I see your point.If anyone can provide clarity (not opinions) on just what the Mystic Theurge actually provides, I would greatly appreciate it. Something official like a FAQ or Errata quote would be awesome.This is a really passive-agressive way to start a thread where you're asking for help. Maybe think about your tone a little.
Fair enough. Often tone is hard to convey in text alone, so perhaps I was reading more into it than was actually there. Thanks for taking it on either way =)
If they have an arcane school specialization, they also get an additional spell slot for each level, but only for spells of that school. Since wizards use their spell slots for preparing and casting, they can prepare spells in each of those slots.
So I noticed that this is exactly the opposite of how I thought it worked. Does anyone else want to weigh in? Or willuwontu, if you can quote your source? (I was doing this from memory, so I could be wrong. I'll see if I can look it up now.)
Note that they do not gain free spells to their spellbook.
At least we agree on that one, which means we're probably right =P
If they have an arcane school specialization, they also get an additional spell slot for each level, but only for spells of that school.
That's not true. The school spell slots are granted not by the "Spells" class feature, but by the "Arcane School" class feature, which is definitely not advanced by the prestige class. Confer these the FAQs.
If they have an arcane school specialization, they also get an additional spell slot for each level, but only for spells of that school.That's not true. The school spell slots are granted not by the "Spells" class feature, but by the "Arcane School" class feature, which is definitely not advanced by the prestige class. Confer these the FAQs.
They do get the specialization slots. The fact that they gain them from arcane school has no bearing on its function:
A wizard can choose to specialize in one school of magic, gaining additional spells and powers based on that school. This choice must be made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed. A wizard that does not select a school receives the universalist school instead.
A wizard that chooses to specialize in one school of magic must select two other schools as his opposition schools, representing knowledge sacrificed in one area of arcane lore to gain mastery in another. A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. For example, a wizard with evocation as an opposition school must expend two of his available 3rd-level spell slots to prepare a fireball. In addition, a specialist takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his opposition schools as a prerequisite. A universalist wizard can prepare spells from any school without restriction.
Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot. Wizards with the universalist school do not receive a school slot.
The ability mentions no specific level they get the extra spell slots, unlike the FAQs you linked, which are for learning spells at specific class levels.
I've always seen that interpreted that you don't add the specialisation slots. The additional slots are gained from your Arcane School class feature and that class feature isn't progressed by Mystic Theurge.
For whatever it is worth the first several (I stopped looking after not finding a counter example) mystic theurges and wizards of other prestige classes in the NPC codex do give spells for specialization.
I've always seen that interpreted that you don't add the specialisation slots. The additional slots are gained from your Arcane School class feature and that class feature isn't progressed by Mystic Theurge.
It doesn't matter that Arcane School isn't progressed. The ability only cares what level of spells you can cast.
Hmmm... interesting.
I think I have a PDF of the codex somewhere, I'll check that out.
If it does give those slots that makes it a bit more viable at low levels (it's good at high levels anyway).
Bonus, cleric domain slots are also given out.A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up.I'm unsure of whether they'd get the actual spells from their domains, but the NPC Codex seems to indicate that they do.
They do get them, as the cleric text says
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot.
And if you look at the domain spells, unlike the witch patron, sorcerer bloodline and oracle mystery spells, they are listed by spell level (not class level). So, as you get the slots, you can prepare the domain spell of that level.
I remember reading a clarification somewhere on this....
In effect, clerics get given all their domain spells and slots at first level they arent the same as Oracle mysteries.....etc
They get them automatically when they are able to cast cleric spells of a certain level, its not related to their class level per se. It is one of the reason why PrC is generally a good option for clerics.
Wizards as far as I remember lose out on the bonus 2 spells gained per level when they PrC (and their bonus feats of course) since these are specifically tied to class level.
The player is right but the Wizard levels will have slots just not the spell knowledge. He will still need to learn those spells
As I said the groups I played with allowed Wizards to gain those two spells going up as Thuerge.
I disagree Doc about Prestige class being good for clerics. Channeling and the variations now allowed is almost as powerful as the clerical spells. Almost all Prestige classes freeze that ability when a cleric goes into it. Holy Vindicator is the only one that doesn't that I know about.
I thought this was the rules thread?
By the rules the wizard absolutely does not gain the 2 bonus spells as they level if they go PrC.... the fact that your group allows it is neither here nor there as you are adopting a house rule system and so any discussion on official Paizo rules is by definition redundant!
In terms of casters, I cannot think of a single one that gains more than the cleric from PrC..... ironically, the one advantage about having poor class features overall, is that you have very little to lose! Losing channel progress is no loss since IMO channel as it stands is largely a waste of design space anyway! Why not change it for something worthwhile?!?
IMO PF Savant is a better caster PrC than Theurge
Is it possible to use Variant multiclassing rules (unchained)?
It is possible to create a character Wizard (first class) / Cleric (secondary class).
Not really. +1 level only adds to a class feature that you actually have, and a wizard 7 VMC cleric (even with faith magic) has no divine spellcasting that mystic theurge can add to.
Note that the Equipment Trick (Mirror or Sunrod) exploit still allows a character to cast a 1st level spell as a 2nd level spell ("The spell is treated as 1 [one] spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes..." [emphasis mine]) to qualify for mystic theurge with only a one level dip in a second casting class (cleric 3/wizard 1/mystic theurge, wizard 3/cleric 1/mystic theurge, oracle 4/sorcerer 1/mystic theurge, etc.).
The RAW is not questionable at all, unless "...for all purposes..." has a different meaning than what it says. Now the exploit is munchkin and some GMs will bring the ban-hammer, but that doesn't change the RAW.
To what end is the cheater trick useful, though? It requires one to spend a feat, that, let's be honest, could be better used on literally anything else.
Oracle 4/
Sorcerer 1/
Mystic Theurge 10
Oracle CL 14, 7th level spells
Sorcerer CL 11, 5th level Spells
Meh, nevermind... you can combine up to 5th level spell slots... if nothing else you can just eat the Sorcerer slots to cast more Oracle spells. The one level of Sorcerer could be Crossblooded for the two Arcanas, I guess. You are sitting at two Revelations without feat investment, and your Curse(s) is sitting at level 9, I think.
Is this more desirable than a 15th level Oracle with 5, possibly 7, Revelations and full level Curse(s)? Do 15th level Oracle find themselves often running out of 5th level and lower spells? So much so that they need to absorb 11 levels of Sorcerer?
Don't get me wrong, I had fun with Nyrissa at the end of Kingmaker... but that is probably enough Mystic Theurge for me unless I am building Ryze Kuja's necromancer. Which, holy crap, if you want to see not what Mystic Theurge can do for you, but what you can do for Mystic Theurge... then:
JuJu Oracle 4/
Gravewalker Witch 3/
Mystic Theurge 2/
Agent of the Grave 5/
Mystic Theurge 6
The RAW is not questionable at all, unless "...for all purposes..." has a different meaning than what it says. Now the exploit is munchkin and some GMs will bring the ban-hammer, but that doesn't change the RAW.
It's questionable because while you have it prepared or know, it's still a 1st level spell, only during the process of casting it is it actually (treated as) a 2nd level spell. Indeed, if it did count as a 2nd level spell at other times, it would take a 2nd level spell slot to prepare/cast, because that, too, falls under "for all purposes".
I see it like the Warlock Vigilante's Mystic Bolts, which count as a weapon attack, but don't count as holding a weapon at any other time.
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The RAW is not questionable at all, unless "...for all purposes..." has a different meaning than what it says. Now the exploit is munchkin and some GMs will bring the ban-hammer, but that doesn't change the RAW.It's questionable because while you have it prepared or know, it's still a 1st level spell, only during the process of casting it is it actually (treated as) a 2nd level spell. Indeed, if it did count as a 2nd level spell at other times, it would take a 2nd level spell slot to prepare/cast, because that, too, falls under "for all purposes".
I see it like the Warlock Vigilante's Mystic Bolts, which count as a weapon attack, but don't count as holding a weapon at any other time.
As Derklord said, you fulfill the requirement only while using the trick. You can't fulfill the requirements for a prestige class with the prestige class levels.
So your levels in the prestige class work only while you are using the trick.End result?
You can't prepare the spells as you don't fulfill the requirements while preparing.
You can't cast the spells that are above what you get from the base class as you don't fulfill the requirements.
You can't advance in the prestige class as you don't fulfill the requirement when advancing your class.
The logic behind the equipment trick “exploit” is the exact same logic people tried to use back in the day to say that simply having heighten spell let them qualify as having the ability to cast X level spells… no matter what feats or items you possess you DO NOT ever have the ability to cast higher level spells than your class levels say you do. Equipment trick does not grant you the magical ability to cast spells one level higher than you normal can, it grants you the ability to effectively heighten specific spells by one level by adding a costly material component. “For all purposes” doesn’t fulfill the prerequisite of “ability to cast X level spells” … Diego did a marvelous job of explaining why above…
The RAW is not questionable at all, unless "...for all purposes..." has a different meaning than what it says. Now the exploit is munchkin and some GMs will bring the ban-hammer, but that doesn't change the RAW.It's questionable because while you have it prepared or know, it's still a 1st level spell, only during the process of casting it is it actually (treated as) a 2nd level spell. Indeed, if it did count as a 2nd level spell at other times, it would take a 2nd level spell slot to prepare/cast, because that, too, falls under "for all purposes".
I see it like the Warlock Vigilante's Mystic Bolts, which count as a weapon attack, but don't count as holding a weapon at any other time.
As Derklord said, you fulfill the requirement only while using the trick. You can't fulfill the requirements for a prestige class with the prestige class levels.
So your levels in the prestige class work only while you are using the trick.
End result?
You can't prepare the spells as you don't fulfill the requirements while preparing.
You can't cast the spells that are above what you get from the base class as you don't fulfill the requirements.
You can't advance in the prestige class as you don't fulfill the requirement when advancing your class.
The problem with that argument is the prestige class requirements for mystic theurge do not require preparing spells of a given level.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
The requirement is to be able to cast 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane spells. When using Equipment Trick, "The spell is treated as 1 [one] spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes..." You cast dancing lantern with the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) material requirement and it is treated as a 2nd level spell for all purposes. Full stop. That is what the RAW states. You just cast a 2nd level spell using your class spellcasting ability (and not a SLA).
The PrC requirement doesn't say it must be cast using a 2nd level spell slot, just be able to cast a 2nd level divine spell and a 2nd level arcane spell.
The logic behind the equipment trick “exploit” is the exact same logic people tried to use back in the day to say that simply having heighten spell let them qualify as having the ability to cast X level spells… no matter what feats or items you possess you DO NOT ever have the ability to cast higher level spells than your class levels say you do. Equipment trick does not grant you the magical ability to cast spells one level higher than you normal can, it grants you the ability to effectively heighten specific spells by one level by adding a costly material component. “For all purposes” doesn’t fulfill the prerequisite of “ability to cast X level spells” … Diego did a marvelous job of explaining why above…
No, the Heighten Spell argument was never valid under RAW because Heighten Spell required use of a spell slot of the effective spell level. You can't cast a spell Heightened to 2nd level without a 2nd level spell slot.
The Equipment Trick description specifically states that "[t]he spell is treated as 1 [one] spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes..." which means dancing lantern cast with the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) material requirement is treated as a 2nd level spell for all purposes.
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Like an Alchemist taking Flyby Attack... it only applies when they have their Wings Discovery active.
Anyways, this Equipment Trick trick is a wonderful case where the official rules can take a hike where the sun don't shine.
I would laugh at you, in front of everyone.
But... but "as-written"...
This is my caring face.
It's not even overpowered, it's just BS...
The requirement is to be able to cast 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane spells. When using Equipment Trick, "The spell is treated as 1 [one] spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes..." You cast dancing lantern with the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) material requirement...
Well I hope you enjoy playing a mystic theurge who can only cast illusions and spells of the light descriptor and must always add a 10GP mirror or a 2GP sunrod to the material components of all their spells atleast until you decide to take a few more levels in your arcane or divine casting class to learn how to actually cast 2nd level spells… since with equipment trick that is all you would be able to cast to keep the benefits of your prestige class… if you cast a spell that you can’t use the trick on then your right back to not qualifying if you only qualified by merit of the trick… but even worse unless you took atleast one of the classes high enough to get 2nd level spells properly you legit don’t qualify period because you can’t cast both an arcane and a divine spell simultaneously without spell synthesis thus you can’t apply the trick to both an arcane and divine spell simultaneously to qualify without already having levels in mystic theurge… and remember you cant use levels in a prC to qualify for that same prC. So… your equipment trick is a bust.
Look at prC prerequisites and early entry shenanigans this way…
Strip your character naked and remove access to all items. Do you still qualify for the prC?
No? Then you didn’t actually qualify even with all your items.
Yes? Ok, you qualify.
Your equipment trick exploit requires you to have mirrors or sunrods and cast specific spells, remove the items and you cant even cast 2nd level spells.
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No... the player can drop the BS, or drop the prestige class.
As the GM, I literally do not care if you found a loophole within the official rules... I don't care about the rules enough for you to be able to argue that your trick works in some official capacity... I officially do not care.
Shenanigans like the Equipment Trick trick will not be allowed at my table, end of story. Enter the prestige class when you have 2nd level arcane spell slots and 2nd level divine spell slots... or don't, I don't care... but you ain't entering it any other way, I can tell you that.
I am, the Decider!
-Roger. [American Dad]
You have missed the point: You are capable to cast a second level spell only while using the trick. When the trick isn't in use you don't fulfill the requirements for the prestige class and the prestige class doesn't work.
No, you are missing the point. The mystic theurge qualification requirement is "[a]ble to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells." Using the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) feat, a character is able to cast dancing lantern and treat it as a 2nd level spell "for all purposes."
Again, you are trying to add requirements ("at all times" or "without relying on a feat/added material component") that are not documented in RAW. Just like the preparing argument above.
The requirement is to be able to cast 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane spells. When using Equipment Trick, "The spell is treated as 1 [one] spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes..." You cast dancing lantern with the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) material requirement...Well I hope you enjoy playing a mystic theurge who can only cast illusions and spells of the light descriptor and must always add a 10GP mirror or a 2GP sunrod to the material components of all their spells atleast until you decide to take a few more levels in your arcane or divine casting class to learn how to actually cast 2nd level spells… since with equipment trick that is all you would be able to cast to keep the benefits of your prestige class… if you cast a spell that you can’t use the trick on then your right back to not qualifying if you only qualified by merit of the trick… but even worse unless you took atleast one of the classes high enough to get 2nd level spells properly you legit don’t qualify period because you can’t cast both an arcane and a divine spell simultaneously without spell synthesis thus you can’t apply the trick to both an arcane and divine spell simultaneously to qualify without already having levels in mystic theurge… and remember you cant use levels in a prC to qualify for that same prC. So… your equipment trick is a bust.
Look at prC prerequisites and early entry shenanigans this way…
Strip your character naked and remove access to all items. Do you still qualify for the prC?
No? Then you didn’t actually qualify even with all your items.
Yes? Ok, you qualify.Your equipment trick exploit requires you to have mirrors or sunrods and cast specific spells, remove the items and you cant even cast 2nd level spells.
Repeating myself: The mystic theurge qualification requirement is "[a]ble to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells." Using the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) feat, a character is able to cast dancing lantern and treat it as a 2nd level spell "for all purposes."
You are trying to add requirements ("at all times" or "without relying on a feat/added material component") that are not documented in RAW.
By your argument, a cleric 3/wizard 3 with only Aram Zey's focus (100 gp masterwork thieves' tools focus requirement) and arcane lock (gold dust worth 25 gp material requirement) as their 2nd level spells in their spell book would also not be able to qualify for mystic theurge since they can't cast either of those spells naked or without items. And a cleric can't cast any spell without a divine focus/holy symbol (or do you require your cleric mystic theurges to take the Birthmark trait or have a holy symbol tattooed on them to qualify?).
I do have one more thing to add. For a discussion that is (supposedly) about RAW, why am I the only one actually quoting the RAW text to support my arguments?
1) A character can cast dancing lantern with Equipment Trick (Sunrod)
2) Per the RAW text of the feat the spell is treated as a 2nd level spell "for all purposes"
3) Since the character is able to cast dancing lantern with Equipment Trick (Sunrod) and it is treated as a 2nd level spell "for all purposes," they use that ability for the purpose of qualifying for mystic theurge ("Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.")
It really is that straightforward and the RAW text really is that clear. You may not like the results, but that doesn't mean it isn't allowed by the RAW text.
Feel free to keep pounding the table though. To paraphrase: "When facts are against you, argue RAW. When RAW is against you, argue facts. When both are against you, pound the table."
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By your argument, a cleric 3/wizard 3 with only Aram Zey's focus (100 gp masterwork thieves' tools focus requirement) and arcane lock (gold dust worth 25 gp material requirement) as their 2nd level spells in their spell book would also not be able to qualify for mystic theurge since they can't cast either of those spells naked or without items. And a cleric can't cast any spell without a divine focus/holy symbol (or do you require your cleric mystic theurges to take the Birthmark trait or have a holy symbol tattooed on them to qualify?).
Wrong. By my argument a cleric 3/wizard 3 is still capable of casting 2nd level spells by merit of their class levels. They have the spell slots and capability to cast them. Their poor choice of prepared spells or recorded spells has no barring on that fact.
Also, technically equipment trick doesn’t grant you the ability to cast higher level spells. It grants you the ability to use an item to amplify the effects of a spell as if it were a higher level spell. And since you said none of us are using RAW arguements… depending on how you read the RAW of the trick, it may or may not require the use of a higher level spell slot. After all, the level of the spell slot used does in-fact fall under “for all purposes”… so is the material component altering the strength of the spell after the fact and you are still just casting a 1st level spell that is empowered to 2nd level by an item from your 1st level spell slot? Or does it enhance the spell from the start requiring the expenditure of an appropriate 2nd level spell slot for your originally 1st level spell? Sure RAW doesn’t explicitly say it uses a higher level spell slot… but it also doesn’t explicitly say it doesn’t, but it does say “for all purposes” as you love to point out. So I guess your ability to cast 2nd level spells from your trick still requires you to have the ability to cast 2nd level spells from your class.
Another bit from RAW… there is an FAQ ruling about temporary qualification for feats and prestige classes that says you can only use their benefits while you are using whatever ability or item is granting you those qualifications… I’m not good at searching the FAQ to pull it up right now, but I can pull up the ruling from a book that the FAQ answer was derived from…
“If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.”
The FAQ basically said that just like with retraining if you stop qualifying for the feat, prestige class, or ability then you lose access to it until you qualify again. The example of a barbarian using rage to qualify for a feat with a higher STR prerequisite than their normal strength was used saying that while raging the barbarian could use that feat but looses access to it once their rage ends.
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Again, you are trying to add requirements ("at all times" or "without relying on a feat/added material component") that are not documented in RAW. Just like the preparing argument above.
No, they are documented, you're just ignoring them. In order to select a prestige class, you need to meet the prereqs at the time of selection, not at some possible later time. And since your understanding of the rules is apparently so insufficient that you can't handle anything without a rule quote*, "Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class." CRB pg. 374
Also, strawman fallacy. No one said anything about "at all times", you made that up. So cut your "I'm doing a proper argumentation and you're pounding the table" crap, it's objectively false.
I do have one more thing to add. For a discussion that is (supposedly) about RAW, why am I the only one actually quoting the RAW text to support my arguments?
Because you're the only one deperately grasping at straws.
You have yet to actually dispute my argument of "Indeed, if it did count as a 2nd level spell at other times, it would take a 2nd level spell slot to prepare/cast, because that, too, falls under "for all purposes"." If it counts as a second level spell before being cast, it must require a second level spell slot. If it doesn't count as a second level spell before being cast, than it doesn't count for "Able to cast 2nd-level divine(/arcane) spells" (unless you're levelling up while in the process of casting the spell). You can't have both depending on what you like more in any given situation!
*) This is not an insult, it's how you present yourself in this thread. If you can't accept that if a spell is treated as second level for preparation and casting, you need a second level spell slot for it without having a rule quote presented (which is the only situation in which me not quoting the rules is a valid point), than you shouldn't participate in rule discussions.
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Guys, Mystic Theurge isn't worth arguing about...