Dedications able to be taken at 1st level?


Second Edition

51 to 66 of 66 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nick1wasd wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
nick1wasd wrote:
So no, you can't have a "negligible main stat" and still be a "completely viable character" because the under-the-hood math says no.
My 12 Wis, buff-focused Warpriest Cleric would like a word.
Do tell, I'm genuinely quite curious how you managed a PF2 character with a key ability mod of +1. I tried that in my group and it turned out quite poorly unfortunately...

My friend did a super good buff Divine Sorc. All his spell choices were about improving his buddies capabilities and thus didn't require saves or have any real scaling of his Cha. The stats he saved allowed him to have great dex and with Magical Striker he would buff and then use his bow with non fighter martial hit rates and an extra dice of damage.


Malk_Content wrote:


I don't think Pirate the archetype being level restricted means Pirate the concept is, so for me this isn't a problem.

I didn't suggest it was....

Malk_Content wrote:


I'll be honest I never really accepted "guy who uses this specific exotic one handed weapon" to be a character concept. "Blademaster" is a better concept idea, and one the has growth inherent to it if it takes at least one level to unlock the true capabilities of the katana.

For weapon proficiency, getting that awesome exotic weapon can help cement a concept and I put that under the expanding specialization options to represent character growth.

That Also wasn't the argument being presented....

If you're playing a swashbuckling mage who can't act like a swashbuckler.... then you're not a swashbuckling mage, you're just a mage with a dagger and a lot of confidence and then you latter need to get the dedication to actually allow you to add the weapon proficiency to your character.

It's not a matter of "one-specific exotic weapon", it's that certain character concepts do have certain styles of equipment in mind and that not all classes will already allow you to have access to those styles.

The idea of the argument being based on getting x specific rare weapon is very odd to me since the example I used was Pirate which gets you proficiency with Hatchet, Scimitar, and Spear, basic core weapons that you get from the dedication because it's a core aesthetic of playing a pirate is to fight how people imagine pirates.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I guess I don't see the problem with playing "Swashbuckling Wizard" who hasn't quite got the hang of swinging a scimitar just yet. It only adds to a character for me when another PC or NPC gets to remark something like "when did you learn to use that!?" as my Wizard pulls out his new weapon.

There is a helluvalot of stuff that people may want for any given concept that can't be achieved at level 1. I don't see how "has to use a dagger for one level (or be at -2 to hit which isn't all that bad)" is any worse than "I envision my martial artist performing flying kicks" and that isn't available until level 4.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
nick1wasd wrote:
graystone wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
For the record, I think the ability score requirement for multiclass dedications is absolute hogwash and will be never see the light of day at my table.
I was not a fan of them either, especially with the decreased NEED for the stats to make the character work: for instance, you can make a caster in the playtest with a negligible 'main' stat and have it be completely viable character so why require a higher stat to dabble and only use the 'feats'-powers? If anything was required, I'd say it'd be your main class requires a better stat as you still keep 100% of that classes abilities while adding on limited abilities from the second that should require much less ability to use: IE a 15 in your starting class IMO makes a MUCH better requirement for multiclass feats for it to make sense. I assume it's more for balance than sense though but with a required number of feats to take another classes multiclass starter feat I not sure why it'd be needed.
Your base class already gives you an ability boost to your key stat, making the absolute minimum of your key ability 12

I think if you have a race with an ability score penalty in that stat, you can start with a 10.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Regarding multiclass ability score requirements, my impression was that those are something of a balance factor rather than a realism factor; the idea is that dedication feats are, on the whole, quite strong, and the higher prereqs help discourage people from scooping them up just because.


WatersLethe wrote:
For the record, I think the ability score requirement for multiclass dedications is absolute hogwash and will be never see the light of day at my table.

I suspect that their origin is somewhat tied to the same reason that they arbitrarily limited the feats to second level. I think they feared the Dedication feats were too powerful, so they attempted to mitigate the power by giving them a higher prerequisite.

If the benefits of a dedication feat were tiered, and you only by default got the first tier when you take the feat. You could for instance grant a 'bonus' tier if your relevant stat/stats are high enough, reflecting your aptitude in your new studies. Remaining tiers would be unlocked either via advancing levels or buying additional class feats in the dedication, perhaps. It would also mean that you could have a person dabble in another class even if their stat wouldn't make them a savant in it, it would just slow their progress.

As to retraining a class, it is absolutely a way you could end up resolving it, although playtest had extensive retraining rules allowing you to retrain tons of things, notably excluding class. It makes perfect sense that a potential prerequisite to shifting to another class would be picking up the multi-class in the new class. Then next time they earn a class feat, instead of taking a second multi-class feat in the transition, you could let them switch class, and have them start with 2 multi-class feat in the original class. However, that leaves you at minimum of 4th level, so they jump seems really big. If you could start at 1st level it would make such a transition significantly more believable in my view, opening a potential transition at a lower level.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Loreguard wrote:


I suspect that their origin is somewhat tied to the same reason that they arbitrarily limited the feats to second level. I think they feared the Dedication feats were too powerful, so they attempted to mitigate the power by giving them a higher prerequisite.

I don't think it was arbitrarily decided due to power concerns. I think it was decided that some classes got a class feature at level 1 and some got a feat. And that if dedications were available at level one the Features classes would always lose out in the hybrid game to the Feat classes/humans get closer to best race by being able to hybrid any from level 1.

Now yes they could give an extra feat to everyone at first as someone stated a desire for, but there are other competing concerns in that space. Namely front loading the experience too much for new players was one of the concerns.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nick1wasd wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
nick1wasd wrote:
So no, you can't have a "negligible main stat" and still be a "completely viable character" because the under-the-hood math says no.
My 12 Wis, buff-focused Warpriest Cleric would like a word.
Do tell, I'm genuinely quite curious how you managed a PF2 character with a key ability mod of +1. I tried that in my group and it turned out quite poorly unfortunately...

As someone else has mentioned, a buff focused caster doesn't need high Class DCs. Having a high Wis doesn't grant more spells anymore, either. So what does a head bashing cleric need to pump Wisdom for?

I made a low Wis archer cleric in the Playtest, and I plan on making plenty of buff focused casters as gishes in the final system, unless they arbitrarily add some new mechanic that requires a high primary stat. If they do add such a mechanic, however, I'll probably consider dropping the system, mind you. I love being able to make a character of a class without a guarantee of having a certain attribute maxed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
MaxAstro wrote:
Regarding multiclass ability score requirements, my impression was that those are something of a balance factor rather than a realism factor; the idea is that dedication feats are, on the whole, quite strong, and the higher prereqs help discourage people from scooping them up just because.

That's certainly the attempt.

However, that doesn't mean it's good. It was the exact same logic that went into making PA/CE/Dodge/TWF etc. Ability Score requirement based.

The real way to fix the problem is to not make the initial Dedication Feat so strong that it dwarfs all other Feats by comparison.

It would also make a fair bit more sense to make further selected Feats in the path have the Ability Score requirements (particularly the casting ones), since those are the ones that realistically have the higher threshold of learning.

For instance, in the case of the Casting Dedications, Ability Score 16 is super unnecessary for the initial dedication, it would make far more sense for the first to require nothing at all, and the latter choices require higher ability scores (such as 13 for first casting set, 16 for second, and then 19 for the third that grants up to 9 level spells).

Regardless, balancing around ability score requirements hasn't been proven to be a "feel good" implementation and ultimately doesn't help balance all that much, because the real problem (the strength of the feat) is never addressed and often exceptions to get past requirements rears its head at some point (such as Ranger and TWF in Pathfinder or Piranha Strike)


nick1wasd wrote:
Do tell, I'm genuinely quite curious how you managed a PF2 character with a key ability mod of +1. I tried that in my group and it turned out quite poorly unfortunately...

I've seen casters not need their main stat. When you buff and use dex/str to hit with spells and avoid save spells they seemed fine. In fact, a cleric seems much stronger maxing cha for that sweet, sweet free healing. Magical Striker also helps to gish as a weapon attack doesn't get a penalty for multiple attacks if your other action is a buff/heal/ect.

nick1wasd wrote:
Your base class already gives you an ability boost to your key stat, making the absolute minimum of your key ability 12

Not true as pointed out by others, if your main stat is your races -2 stat you end up with a 10... And that's my point: a int 10 wizard can learn everything wizard so picking individual abilities from them would seem to require less than that and not 5 higher.

MaxAstro wrote:
Regarding multiclass ability score requirements, my impression was that those are something of a balance factor rather than a realism factor; the idea is that dedication feats are, on the whole, quite strong, and the higher prereqs help discourage people from scooping them up just because.

Oh, I've sure it for some balance fears but it already has [IMO] enough other requirements built in so they can't be picked up willy-nilly: they have to come from a certain set of 'feats, you have to take multiple follow up one before taking another one and you're almost certain to be able to qualify for one [or more] even if you put a stat requirement. What goes off the rails if you allow someone to pick one they like as opposed to one that happens to match their stats? I'm not seeing it.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't hate the multiclass dedication stat reqs but I do think they should be 14 and not 16 (or else there should be another floating bonus at chargen.)

Since as it stands it's not possible to be a Dwarf Fighter/Bard or Bard/Fighter until after level 5, since you can at most manage a Charisma of 16 (with bard as your class) which leaves you with only 2 floating bonuses to put into Strength/Dex, else you have a Str/Dex of 16 but only a 14 Cha.

If we're really going to use multiclassing to replace certain hybrid concepts, we should not eliminate ancestries with a poorly positioned attribute flaw from participating in those concepts from the get go.

So, assuming things are as they are in the playtest I'm going to either drop the requirements to 14 or put another floating boost in the class step.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
graystone wrote:

[...]

I've seen casters not need their main stat. When you buff and use dex/str to hit with spells and avoid save spells they seemed fine. In fact, a cleric seems much stronger maxing cha for that sweet, sweet free healing. Magical Striker also helps to gish as a weapon attack doesn't get a penalty for multiple attacks if your other action is a buff/heal/ect.
[...]

Just to note that in the final rules, hitting with a ranged spell attack will use your casting ability mod, as it's now a Spell proficiency roll. (And there's no more melee touch attack either, they have been changed to saves)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Elfteiroh wrote:
Just to note that in the final rules, hitting with a ranged spell attack will use your casting ability mod, as it's now a Spell proficiency roll. (And there's no more melee touch attack either, they have been changed to saves)

Most likely one of the reasons for this is that in the playtest charisma was more valuable to clerics than wisdom, so long as you avoided spells which asked for saves.

Like our playtest games had a 16 Dex, 16 Cha, 12 Wis archer cleric in it - it worked out great.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:
Just to note that in the final rules, hitting with a ranged spell attack will use your casting ability mod, as it's now a Spell proficiency roll. (And there's no more melee touch attack either, they have been changed to saves)

Most likely one of the reasons for this is that in the playtest charisma was more valuable to clerics than wisdom, so long as you avoided spells which asked for saves.

Like our playtest games had a 16 Dex, 16 Cha, 12 Wis archer cleric in it - it worked out great.

It also let them remove the Touch AC that was... sometimes problematic.


Elfteiroh wrote:
graystone wrote:

[...]

I've seen casters not need their main stat. When you buff and use dex/str to hit with spells and avoid save spells they seemed fine. In fact, a cleric seems much stronger maxing cha for that sweet, sweet free healing. Magical Striker also helps to gish as a weapon attack doesn't get a penalty for multiple attacks if your other action is a buff/heal/ect.
[...]
Just to note that in the final rules, hitting with a ranged spell attack will use your casting ability mod, as it's now a Spell proficiency roll. (And there's no more melee touch attack either, they have been changed to saves)

Cool, to know. IMO, that's just push the low stat caster more into gish type spells that buff the caster and/or their weapons if that wish to use spells to 'attack'.

PossibleCabbage: I'm not really seeing this change really making a dent in the cha based cleric as long as their cha based healing is as strong as before. They can easily shift to physical attacks and a feat like Magical Striker instead of attack spells and shift those spells to buffs/heals/utility.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Since as it stands it's not possible to be a Dwarf Fighter/Bard or Bard/Fighter until after level 5, since you can at most manage a Charisma of 16 (with bard as your class) which leaves you with only 2 floating bonuses to put into Strength/Dex, else you have a Str/Dex of 16 but only a 14 Cha.

You're right about not being able to be a fighter and multiclass into a Cha-based class until 5th level, but you can absolutely start as a bard and multiclass into fighter at 2nd. Ancestry Str +2, Con +2, Wis +2, Cha -2; Background Str +2, Cha +2; general bonus +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha; class Cha +2. Final stats Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14.

51 to 66 of 66 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Dedications able to be taken at 1st level? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.