Otyughs in the sewers?
In general (jokes at Sorshen's expense aside), if Korvosa can have such an offal secret, why not other places?
... hmmm, they could probably even be charmed to stay in place and only eat what the authorities deem to be otyugh chow.
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Nobody ever said anything about not brainwashing people... she's just gonna do it more subtly this time around! Gotta avoid war. That stuff gets expensive, and cleaning up bodies is a hassle.Gelatinous Cubes
You could dye them pink and sometimes throw stone letters into them.
>_>
<_<
"H-A-N-S-A-L-K" - seven points.
I wonder where Paizo can go with Golarion now that so many of the main plot points are tied up.
Eye of Abendego?
Death of Aroden?
Cheliax and Queen Thrune?
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Ah, two of the best AP's ever produced by Paizo.
But reactionary is the best trait. :(
I've read both (I've read every AP, as a matter of fact... kind of a bad decision on my part), and I didn't see anything reactionary in there. I also wasn't looking for that sort of thing, nor am I very well versed in politics. Probably on me.
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Hell's Rebels includes stuff like the said tyrant forbidding mint, so I don't really see reactionary stuff from that ap either :P
War for the Crown? Still don't really see what you mean, its not like its about establishing democracy in Taldor, faction you work for just opposes the military traditionalist faction.
I still want something involving the Bottle of the Bound, the Horseman of War, and the Denizens of Leng. The dots are all there, they just need connecting.
Maybe I just need to Thanos up and do it myself.
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Hell's Rebels includes stuff like the said tyrant forbidding mint, so I don't really see reactionary stuff from that ap either :P
War for the Crown? Still don't really see what you mean, its not like its about establishing democracy in Taldor, faction you work for just opposes the military traditionalist faction.
What makes you reactionary in HR and WftC isn't so much what you're opposing as what you're supporting.
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In first one I think that was Right to not be oppressed by the devil worshiping government and in second one equality? Like I said, still not really seeing it.
Like, if you take dictionary definition of the word, its "opposing political or social progress or reform." if we quote wikipedia(which took definition from dictionary of modern thought), it says "In political science, a reactionary is a person or entity holding political views that favour a return to the status quo ante, the previous political state of society, which they believe possessed characteristics that are negatively absent from the contemporary status quo of a society. As an adjective, the word reactionary describes points of view and policies meant to restore the status quo ante".
In otherwords, reactionaries by definition react to social changes and want to prevent them from happening meanwhile in both HR and WftC you are trying to cause a change.
As far as I can tell, either you are using wrong term or you have really weird idea of what is Status Quo in Cheliax and Taldor.
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It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^
It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^Well, that would always be nice, but more specifically, both APs have you surrendering your project, whatever it is, to dead-hand control, and force you not to let it play out to the end.
I don't know, Hell's Rebels leaves it pretty open who holds the levers of power on the end. There are some players who appear to be set in canon (which is what will happen in a few months with the Lost Omens guide, anyway, for all AP's), but it could well be PC's who end up ruling Ravounel.
As for War for the Crown, while the AP assumes a fixed goal, the PC's play a significant role in shaping how that will play out. There's leeway for another person to sit on the throne, however abolishing the entire system is clearly not in play and would be very difficult against the ingrained power structure, anyway. The proactive part is in modernizing Taldor for a new age.
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I don't know, Hell's Rebels leaves it pretty open who holds the levers of power on the end. There are some players who appear to be set in canon (which is what will happen in a few months with the Lost Omens guide, anyway, for all AP's), but it could well be PC's who end up ruling Ravounel.
Who formally rules Ravounel is immaterial. Ravounel's constitution depends on the Cheliax Covenant, which enshrines five families as the permanent power brokers in the country.
Hell's Rebels' limited impact is made even more clear by the Age of Ashes campaign, which features slavers operating in Ravounel. Which means either the institution has not been abolished, or the government hasn't the power to enforce abolition.
As for War for the Crown, while the AP assumes a fixed goal, the PC's play a significant role in shaping how that will play out. There's leeway for another person to sit on the throne, however abolishing the entire system is clearly not in play and would be very difficult against the ingrained power structure, anyway. The proactive part is in modernizing Taldor for a new age.
Aye, there's the rub.
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It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^
*BREEEP! FRIEND UNITY DEMANDS ALL COMMIES BE TERMINATED!*
As for being oppressed, it seems that it more more the right not to get sacrificed to Asmodeus in the streets by being 'spiked' and having to watch halfling get sold in bulk.
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It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^*BREEEP! FRIEND UNITY DEMANDS ALL COMMIES BE TERMINATED!*
As for being oppressed, it seems that it more more the right not to get sacrificed to Asmodeus in the streets by being 'spiked' and having to watch halfling get sold in bulk.
The former never happened and the latter continues unabated.
The former never happened and the latter continues unabated.It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^*BREEEP! FRIEND UNITY DEMANDS ALL COMMIES BE TERMINATED!*
As for being oppressed, it seems that it more more the right not to get sacrificed to Asmodeus in the streets by being 'spiked' and having to watch halfling get sold in bulk.
*Cough* The 'Excrutiations' consist of spikes up the bum and out the mouth.
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*Coough* The 'Excrutiations' consist of spikes up the bum and out the mouth.The former never happened and the latter continues unabated.It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^*BREEEP! FRIEND UNITY DEMANDS ALL COMMIES BE TERMINATED!*
As for being oppressed, it seems that it more more the right not to get sacrificed to Asmodeus in the streets by being 'spiked' and having to watch halfling get sold in bulk.
Elsewhere in the country, sure. Barzie's involved starving dogs and wooden huts with nails driven through them. And there weren't any before he arrived.
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I don't know, Hell's Rebels leaves it pretty open who holds the levers of power on the end. There are some players who appear to be set in canon (which is what will happen in a few months with the Lost Omens guide, anyway, for all AP's), but it could well be PC's who end up ruling Ravounel.Who formally rules Ravounel is immaterial. Ravounel's constitution depends on the Cheliax Covenant, which enshrines five families as the permanent power brokers in the country.
Hell's Rebels' limited impact is made even more clear by the Age of Ashes campaign, which features slavers operating in Ravounel. Which means either the institution has not been abolished, or the government hasn't the power to enforce abolition.
I'll presume that the slavers are not openly plying their trade but are rather a criminal organization. That means that the Silver Ravens and their allies are not perfect in maintaining a crime-free realm (then again, that goes for any real nation on Earth as well), but not that the freedom on Ravounel had a "limited impact", IMO.
And you are ignoring that breaking the Cheliax Covenant would also mean that the government of Cheliax would be stripped of the support of hell. Hence, the five families hold not that much power in Ravounel, but rather in Cheliax. And that's only if the players are stupid enough to make them aware of their importance to that magical construct.
Sure, Ravounel would probably be re-integrated if the Cheliax Covenant were to be broken, but shortly thereafter the Thrune government would probably go down as well.
As for War for the Crown, while the AP assumes a fixed goal, the PC's play a significant role in shaping how that will play out. There's leeway for another person to sit on the throne, however abolishing the entire system is clearly not in play and would be very difficult against the ingrained power structure, anyway. The proactive part is in modernizing Taldor for a new age.Aye, there's the rub.
Eh, if you think that abolishing monarchy and feudalism in a medieval fantasy setting is a realistic goal, be my guest. I think Galt stands as enough of a bad example for most nations on Golarion (and Andoran as the good example, of course) that even most normal citizens would be leery of that prospect, doubly so for Taldans, given their proximity to Galt.
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I'll presume that the slavers are not openly plying their trade but are rather a criminal organization.
Why would you presume that? Nothing in the HR AP actually states that slavery is abolished in the country.
That means that the Silver Ravens and their allies are not perfect in maintaining a crime-free realm (then again, that goes for any real nation on Earth as well), but not that the freedom on Ravounel had a "limited impact", IMO.
There's "not being perfect" and then there's "having to rely on a posse of 7th-level foreigners who teleport into your country to solve your endemic problems." Assuming they even are problems - the Bellflowers and the Age of Ashes party might be acting against government policy in fighting a slaver cult.
And you are ignoring that breaking the Cheliax Covenant would also mean that the government of Cheliax would be stripped of the support of hell. Hence, the five families hold not that much power in Ravounel, but rather in Cheliax. And that's only if the players are stupid enough to make them aware of their importance to that magical construct.
I am not ignoring it, in fact I am centering it. It is the most important thing. It is what gives the Board of Governors its veto power over who becomes Lord-Mayor. Put another way, the Board of Governors gets its power from terror - holding the threat of foreign invasion over everyone's heads.
Sure, Ravounel would probably be re-integrated if the Cheliax Covenant were to be broken, but shortly thereafter the Thrune government would probably go down as well.
I highly doubt it. They just managed to put down an insurrection with fire and blood, after all. Who has the power to try again, even absent Hell's support?
Eh, if you think that abolishing monarchy and feudalism in a medieval fantasy setting is a realistic goal, be my guest. I think Galt stands as enough of a bad example for most nations on Golarion (and Andoran as the good example, of course) that even most normal citizens would be leery of that prospect, doubly so for Taldans, given their proximity to Galt.
Golarion is hardly medieval, it is consistently portrayed as early-modern, with Age of Exploration-style mercantilist colonies, a developing factory system of production, and a well-girded system of world trade. Feudalism is consistently portrayed as an empty shell in the countries where it exists - and Taldor isn't one of them. In any event, the republic is not a pie-in-the-sky project, but an accomplished fact in numerous countries: not just Galt and Andoran, but also Absalom, Bachuan, Goka, Magnimar, Molthune, Nirmathas, Rahadoum, and probably others I'm forgetting.
There's "not being perfect" and then there's "having to rely on a posse of 7th-level foreigners who teleport into your country to solve your endemic problems." Assuming they even are problems - the Bellflowers and the Age of Ashes party might be acting against government policy in fighting a slaver cult.
Wait, hold the phone! Are you telling me that in a free Ravounel- adventurers are needed sometimes to solve problems and go on adventures? The shock, the horror! The government must surely be on the edge of collapse or a puppet for the baddies! After all, adventures are never needed to break up slavers anywhere else in Golarion...
Or you know, maybe this fantasy adventure game wasn't written with one man's very, very specific ideas about political theory in mind. I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but it's possible- just possible- that Pathfinder might not be... completely realistic?
In all seriousness, what you choose to read into or add to adventures from your well informed but highly opinionated point of view is cool but I don't think it's strongly relevant to most tables. I know my players would revolt if I tried to leverage my degree on them.
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Wait, hold the phone! Are you telling me that in a free Ravounel- adventurers are needed sometimes to solve problems and go on adventures? The shock, the horror! The government must surely be on the edge of collapse or a puppet for the baddies! After all, adventures are never needed to break up slavers anywhere else in Golarion...
You might think this is a defense of the one state, but it is in fact an indictment of them all. And in fact governments are consistently portrayed as on the brink of collapse or puppets of baddies.
There's also a difference between hiring domestic adventurers from time to time and letting problems fester until some foreigners happen to 'port in because literally everyone in your country is incompetent.
I'll presume that the slavers are not openly plying their trade but are rather a criminal organization.Why would you presume that? Nothing in the HR AP actually states that slavery is abolished in the country.
Because of the CG government. Because nothing says "CG" like slavery, right?
There's "not being perfect" and then there's "having to rely on a posse of 7th-level foreigners who teleport into your country to solve your endemic problems." Assuming they even are problems - the Bellflowers and the Age of Ashes party might be acting against government policy in fighting a slaver cult.
Not likely. And calling it an "endemic problem" is tea leaves reading of the situation.
I am not ignoring it, in fact I am centering it. It is the most important thing. It is what gives the Board of Governors its veto power over who becomes Lord-Mayor. Put another way, the Board of Governors gets its power from terror - holding the threat of foreign invasion over everyone's heads.
In your fantasy how things are going, maybe. I think the reality will be quite different.
I highly doubt it. They just managed to put down an insurrection with fire and blood, after all. Who has the power to try again, even absent Hell's support?
Maybe all the nobles who want the Thrune's off the throne? Or maybe Cheliax neighbours, some of which probably want to throw of their yoke. The candidate list is pretty long.
Golarion is hardly medieval, it is consistently portrayed as early-modern, with Age of Exploration-style mercantilist colonies, a developing factory system of production, and a well-girded system of world trade. Feudalism is consistently portrayed as an empty shell in the countries where it exists - and Taldor isn't one of them. In any event, the republic is not a pie-in-the-sky project, but an accomplished fact in numerous countries: not just Galt and Andoran, but also Absalom, Bachuan, Goka, Magnimar, Molthune, Nirmathas, Rahadoum, and probably others I'm forgetting.
Absalom gets ruled by an oligarchic council, so does Magnimar. Bachuan is a communist nightmare, the USSR on steroids. Molthune gets ruled by powerful noble houses, it's basically the Holy Roman Empire. Nirmathas is a bunch of Robin Hood's doing their own thing. I don't know enough about Goka and Rahadoum to make an informed statement.
I'll presume that the slavers are not openly plying their trade but are rather a criminal organization.Why would you presume that? Nothing in the HR AP actually states that slavery is abolished in the country.
That means that the Silver Ravens and their allies are not perfect in maintaining a crime-free realm (then again, that goes for any real nation on Earth as well), but not that the freedom on Ravounel had a "limited impact", IMO.There's "not being perfect" and then there's "having to rely on a posse of 7th-level foreigners who teleport into your country to solve your endemic problems." Assuming they even are problems - the Bellflowers and the Age of Ashes party might be acting against government policy in fighting a slaver cult.
And you are ignoring that breaking the Cheliax Covenant would also mean that the government of Cheliax would be stripped of the support of hell. Hence, the five families hold not that much power in Ravounel, but rather in Cheliax. And that's only if the players are stupid enough to make them aware of their importance to that magical construct.I am not ignoring it, in fact I am centering it. It is the most important thing. It is what gives the Board of Governors its veto power over who becomes Lord-Mayor. Put another way, the Board of Governors gets its power from terror - holding the threat of foreign invasion over everyone's heads.
Sure, Ravounel would probably be re-integrated if the Cheliax Covenant were to be broken, but shortly thereafter the Thrune government would probably go down as well.I highly doubt it. They just managed to put down an insurrection with fire and blood, after all. Who has the power to try again, even absent Hell's support?
Eh, if you think that abolishing monarchy and feudalism in a medieval fantasy setting is a realistic goal, be my guest. I think Galt stands as enough of a bad example for most nations on Golarion (and Andoran as the good example,...
I think Galt's eternal revolution is just a base state that the PCs can have a go at fixing. Plus, I figure some one with vast(Divine?) influence is messing with things so it is such a mess.
Wowie, this thread is still going.
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Because of the CG government. Because nothing says "CG" like slavery, right?
Ravounel doesn't have a nation write-up, so this "CG" business is pure speculation on your part. The country's most populous city is in fact CN, and permits slavery on laissez-faire/consent-as-panacea grounds.
Not likely. And calling it an "endemic problem" is tea leaves reading of the situation.
Sure, it's a prediction. It is also the most reasonable one, because it doesn't posit a radical change in social policy.
In your fantasy how things are going, maybe. I think the reality will be quite different.
How so? Picture the situation. You're an aristocrat who is trying to cling to your inherited power in a situation where popular acclaim seems to be a viable path to power. Holding the threat of foreign intervention over the people is a means to maintaining your power in the form of a veto over the popular acclaim. It's not like calling in foreign interventions is unprecedented, either in real history of in Golarion's.
Maybe all the nobles who want the Thrune's off the throne? Or maybe Cheliax neighbours, some of which probably want to throw of their yoke. The candidate list is pretty long.
The nobles who wanted Thrune off its throne were presumably purged in the counter-revolution of 4717-18, either because they threw in their lot with their best chance in decades, or because the regime took the opportunity to do away with wavering elements. In any event, the Chelaxian nobility is consistently portrayed as decadent, hollowed-out, and powerless in the face of the absolutist regime, which is true enough to life to be believable.
Cheliax's neighbors likewise were not strong enough to take advantage of the regime's internal troubles when it was having internal troubles. They're supposed to be better placed against a regime that has quashed its internal troubles and consolidated itself? This is a fantasy.
Absalom gets ruled by an oligarchic council, so does Magnimar. Bachuan is a communist nightmare, the USSR on steroids. Molthune gets ruled by powerful noble houses, it's basically the Holy Roman Empire. Nirmathas is a bunch of Robin Hood's doing their own thing. I don't know enough about Goka and Rahadoum to make an informed statement.
You seem to have conflated the republican form of government broadly conceived with the liberal republic in specific. Oligarchies are republican, as are military dictatorships, as are communist states. But whether you approve of particular republics is hardly the point. The point is that republicanism is not inconceivable in setting, quite the opposite.
Because of the CG government. Because nothing says "CG" like slavery, right?Ravounel doesn't have a nation write-up, so this "CG" business is pure speculation on your part. The country's most populous city is in fact CN, and permits slavery on laissez-faire/consent-as-panacea grounds.
Kintargo is CG, the Silver Ravens are CG. They are the governing body of Ravounel, so far Vyre is more along for the ride. The Adventurer's Guide makes it clear that the Silver Ravens have slavers as their explicit enemies and are making common cause with the Eagle Knights.
Sure, it's a prediction. It is also the most reasonable one, because it doesn't posit a radical change in social policy.
Which was the entire point of Hell's Rebels. Don't hold your breath in finding a slavery paradise.
How so? Picture the situation. You're an aristocrat who is trying to cling to your inherited power in a situation where popular acclaim seems to be a viable path to power. Holding the threat of foreign intervention over the people is a means to maintaining your power in the form of a veto over the popular acclaim. It's not like calling in foreign interventions is unprecedented, either in real history of in Golarion's.
The problem there being that House Thrune doesn't want the Kintargo Contract to end, so who are you exactly blackmailing? And this, again, presumes that anyone was stupid enough to tell the five families about their role in the whole thing.
The nobles who wanted Thrune off its throne were presumably purged in the counter-revolution of 4717-18, either because they threw in their lot with their best chance in decades, or because the regime took the opportunity to do away with wavering elements. In any event, the Chelaxian nobility is consistently portrayed as decadent, hollowed-out, and powerless in the face of the absolutist regime, which is true enough to life to be believable.
That would "all the other noble houses in Cheliax", so quite a purge. And that depiction of the Chelaxian nobility depends on the overwhelming power of Hell. If Hell's support would suddenly be withdrawn, at the very least House Thrune would have to make huge concessions, more likely they'd get murdered very quickly.
Cheliax's neighbors likewise were not strong enough to take advantage of the regime's internal troubles when it was having internal troubles. They're supposed to be better placed against a regime that has quashed its internal troubles and consolidated itself? This is a fantasy.
The other neighbours stood back to see how the situation developed. With House Thrune deeply weakened by the Glorious Reclamation and the complete withdrawal of Hell's support, the opportunity to take out the diabolists would be better than at any other point in Cheliax history. And if you think that some of Cheliax vassal states wouldn't want to take the opportunity to free themselves when such an opportunity pops up, I don't know what to say.
You seem to have conflated the republican form of government broadly conceived with the liberal republic in specific. Oligarchies are republican, as are military dictatorships, as are communist states. But whether you approve of particular republics is hardly the point. The point is that republicanism is not inconceivable in setting, quite the opposite.
That is a very broad definition of "Republic", sounding about as realistic as communist countries calling themselves "democratic". But you do you, boo.
Absalom gets ruled by an...
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Hell's Rebels' limited impact is made even more clear by the Age of Ashes campaign, which features slavers operating in Ravounel. Which means either the institution has not been abolished, or the government hasn't the power to enforce abolition.
Might wanna wait until those adventures are actually out to be able to understand things... BUT... (Slight Age of Ashes Spoiler follows)...
The government of Ravounel DOES have the power to enforce abolition, but they've got their hands full with diplomatic stuff with Nidal and a potential haunting recrudescence from Barzillai Thrune (both of which are being manipulated by said slavers behind the scene to enforce distractions) in the short term. A story about an up-and-coming new government smacking down slavers makes for a great novel or show plot, but not an RPG plot. Adventure 3 allows the players to be active in this role and come in and deal with the hidden threat of slavers in Ravounel first rather than making them sit on the sidelines and watch while others handle the job.
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I'll presume that the slavers are not openly plying their trade but are rather a criminal organization.Why would you presume that? Nothing in the HR AP actually states that slavery is abolished in the country.
Slavery is abolished in Ravounel. Consider this errata if you wish. I consider it more of a "Until 2nd edition, we don't really have a "Ravounel" to talk about, since the whole point of "Hell's Rebels" was to allow you and your players to take part in that establishment—now that 2nd edition is imminent, we as the creators of the setting get to step in and provide baseline assumptions for the region in a way we couldn't before."
BTW, not sure what happened at the end of my last post, sorry.
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Kintargo is CG, the Silver Ravens are CG. They are the governing body of Ravounel
No they aren't. Per the Adventurer's Guide, they aren't a part of the state at all. The Lord-Mayor incarnates the state in Kintargo, and is apparently acclaimed by the people then ratified (or not) by the Board of Governors. At best the SRs are a political party to which the Lord-Mayor might owe some allegiance.
so far Vyre is more along for the ride.
They also aren't completely depopulated by abortive counter-revolutionary reprisals, nor have they suffered any major political shakeup. The capital might be in Kintargo; power is not.
The Adventurer's Guide makes it clear that the Silver Ravens have slavers as their explicit enemies and are making common cause with the Eagle Knights.
So? Again, while the Eagle Knights are the arm of a state, the SRs are not.
Which was the entire point of Hell's Rebels.
No it wasn't. The entire point was separatism for its own sake while maintaining as much of the status quo ante as possible.
The problem there being that House Thrune doesn't want the Kintargo Contract to end
And if the BoG doesn't ratify a Lord-Mayor, Thrune can act against Ravounel with impunity. That is what gives the BoG its power. If they fail to ratify a Lord-Mayor, Thrune can do as it likes and probably reward its supporters handsomely.
And this, again, presumes that anyone was stupid enough to tell the five families about their role in the whole thing.
Secret's out, it can't be kept.
That would "all the other noble houses in Cheliax", so quite a purge.
Oh, that's not true. Thrune had supporters throughout the Civil War and still does.
And that depiction of the Chelaxian nobility depends on the overwhelming power of Hell. If Hell's support would suddenly be withdrawn, at the very least House Thrune would have to make huge concessions, more likely they'd get murdered very quickly.
It's been 70+ years since 4640. The nobility isn't going to just regenerate itself automatically after that long a consistent set of attacks by the central, absolutist regime. And that regime will have gained at least some mortal support over the generations.
Slavery is abolished in Ravounel.
Ah. Well then, that's nice.
While we're on the subject, will any towns/cities not detailed in the HR AP and related materials (e.g. Cheliax, The Infernal Empire) be getting detailed? The countryside feels quite barren in the AP and the cities and towns that are detailed have about 30 thousand people in them. Varisia is more urbanized and densely-populated.
(Note: if the answer is "yes," I promise to buy both the setting guide and at least the third volume of Age of Ashes.)
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While we're on the subject, will any towns/cities not detailed in the HR AP and related materials (e.g. Cheliax, The Infernal Empire) be getting detailed? The countryside feels quite barren in the AP and the cities and towns that are detailed have about 30 thousand people in them. Varisia is more urbanized and densely-populated.
(Note: if the answer is "yes," I promise to buy both the setting guide and at least the third volume of Age of Ashes.)
We'll have more information on them in the World Guide and Age of Ashes. Not as much as you want, but more than you have now.
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We'll have more information on them in the World Guide and Age of Ashes. Not as much as you want, but more than you have now.While we're on the subject, will any towns/cities not detailed in the HR AP and related materials (e.g. Cheliax, The Infernal Empire) be getting detailed? The countryside feels quite barren in the AP and the cities and towns that are detailed have about 30 thousand people in them. Varisia is more urbanized and densely-populated.
(Note: if the answer is "yes," I promise to buy both the setting guide and at least the third volume of Age of Ashes.)
I meant to favorite this post, and somehow a combination of patchy wireless connectivity and working from a mobile browser have allowed me to do so twice. Or at least that's what it shows.
Weird, but fitting.
No they aren't. Per the Adventurer's Guide, they aren't a part of the state at all. The Lord-Mayor incarnates the state in Kintargo, and is apparently acclaimed by the people then ratified (or not) by the Board of Governors. At best the SRs are a political party to which the Lord-Mayor might owe some allegiance.
Yet they still wield significant political influence, given that a Silver Raven (Jilia Bainilus) is Lord-Mayor.
They also aren't completely depopulated by abortive counter-revolutionary reprisals, nor have they suffered any major political shakeup. The capital might be in Kintargo; power is not.
Quite honestly, I was more than a bit surprised to see that Vyre has more populace than Kintargo. How do they feed all those people, given that they are on an island where everything surrounding the city wants to kill and/or eat the populace? And if power is in Kintargo or Vyre is, once again, your tea leaves reading. Already didn't work out on slavery.
So? Again, while the Eagle Knights are the arm of a state, the SRs are not.
You've already been proven wrong by James.
No it wasn't. The entire point was separatism for its own sake while maintaining as much of the status quo ante as possible.
That's your interpretation, not shared by many others here.
And if the BoG doesn't ratify a Lord-Mayor, Thrune can act against Ravounel with impunity. That is what gives the BoG its power. If they fail to ratify a Lord-Mayor, Thrune can do as it likes and probably reward its supporters handsomely.
Yet Thrune still has a huge stake in preserving the compact. It's a stalemate, hence why there is no leverage which wouldn't carry huge reprisals against the potential blackmailer.
Secret's out, it can't be kept.
That's, again, your interpretation, not a fact.
Oh, that's not true. Thrune had supporters throughout the Civil War and still does.
Yes, I imagine LE opportunistic noble houses wouldn't jump at a chance for political advancement. That's be reaaaally uncharacteristic for LE noble houses.
Grantedly, though, that works in both directions.
It's been 70+ years since 4640. The nobility isn't going to just regenerate itself automatically after that long a consistent set of attacks by the central, absolutist regime. And that regime will have gained at least some mortal support over the generations.
Sure, and a significant part of the populace still worships other non-evil deities, the state has enemies or potential enemies all around them and the only thing propping them up all this time is that they can call on the support of actual Hell. If you think that the Thrunes just shrug at losing their most important military support, that sounds like a really bad strategic reading of the situation. I mean, the entire point why they let Ravounel go was that they felt there was no option but to do so.
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Yet they still wield significant political influence, given that a Silver Raven (Jilia Bainilus) is Lord-Mayor.
Two assumptions: one, she is alive. Two, she is an SR. The former is a pretty good assumption, but the latter is not. If she is alive, she probably feels grateful to the SRs for it. But she is not necessarily a member. HR calls her an "Ally," but that mechanic and the SR organization generally stop being relevant at about the time she shows up. Notably, she is not detailed among the members in the Adventurer's Guide, which does bother with such luminaries as Shensen, Rexus, and Jackdaw.
More likely, she sidesteps the SRs with her own personal magnetism and loyal state apparatus.
Quite honestly, I was more than a bit surprised to see that Vyre has more populace than Kintargo. How do they feed all those people, given that they are on an island where everything surrounding the city wants to kill and/or eat the populace? And if power is in Kintargo or Vyre is, once again, your tea leaves reading. Already didn't work out on slavery.
I agree, Vyre makes no sense. It produces nothing, sits on no trade route, has a polluted, inadequate water source, and yet there it sits, with it's international tourism and extremely high-level characters. Norgorber's patronage really is the only explanation, and it is not satisfying.
You've already been proven wrong by James.
On a completely different matter. I'm sure we can all engage in a little intellectual honesty here.
That's your interpretation, not shared by many others here.
Being unpopular does not make an interpretation incorrect. It is telling that it takes out-of-text statements by Paizo starf to disprove it - they admittedly and deliberately did not put any contraindications in the text.
Yet Thrune still has a huge stake in preserving the compact. It's a stalemate, hence why there is no leverage which wouldn't carry huge reprisals against the potential blackmailer.
What are you not understanding here? If the BoG doesn't ratify a Lord-Mayor, Thrune can act against Ravounel with no trouble under the Covenant. We know that's how it works because that's how it's worked for 75 years.
Are you assuming that the decrees of the last-ratified Lord-Mayor carry over until a new one is ratified? Why would you assume that? It's an infernal contract.
That's, again, your interpretation, not a fact.
That's kind of how life works. Tongues wag, and documents circulate. Especially if there's a powerful devil interested in this information making the rounds as much as possible in order to big up his own reputation. Which there is.
Yes, I imagine LE opportunistic noble houses wouldn't jump at a chance for political advancement. That's be reaaaally uncharacteristic for LE noble houses.
Grantedly, though, that works in both directions.
The question is not whether they would want to, the question is whether they'd have the strength, relative and absolute. They do not have either.
Sure, and a significant part of the populace still worships other non-evil deities, the state has enemies or potential enemies all around them and the only thing propping them up all this time is that they can call on the support of actual Hell. If you think that the Thrunes just shrug at losing their most important military support, that sounds like a really bad strategic reading of the situation. I mean, the entire point why they let Ravounel go was that they felt there was no option but to do so.
It helped that Ravounel was economically and strategically worthless, thus neither an asset nor a potential threat. With respect to Isger, on the other hand, Cheliax has tightened its hold, because it has strategic value as both a trade and invasion route.
Every country with neighbors had potential enemies. Tellingly, Cheliax's neighbors did not move against it at its most vulnerable point in almost a century, beyond a little commerce raiding by Andoran and the reconquest of Kharajite by Rahadoum. By the time 2e will have rolled around, the regime will have consolidated itself internally by destroying a large portion of its political enemies. It will be indisputably stronger than it was in 4615-16.
Hell is helpful, but it is by no means the regime's only support, and it is exactly this reading that is called out as mistaken in Cheliax, Empire of Devils.